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So, this theory was inspired by discussion in this thread on Reddit. If someone has posted this before, just ignore me. Note that I haven't read the Oathbringer previews, so if there's more information in those, I don't know of it. Based on what we've seen in the first two Stormlight books, and Edgedancer though, I'm fairly confident in this. We've had a fairly in-depth look at three surges so far (Gravitation, Illumination, and Progression) with some info on three others (Adhesion, Abrasion, and Transformation). With the first three, we've seen two different ways of using them. Gravitation There are two types of Gravitational Lashing. You can either perform a Basic Lashing, where you change the direction of the local gravitational force on an object. Then there's a Reverse Lashing, where you increase an object's apparent gravitational pull. Basic stuff really, this was established in the prologue. Progression We've seen Lift use Progression in two ways. She can either cause Growth in plants near her, or use Regrowth to heal injured people. Illumination This was the final piece of the puzzle for me. Credit goes to the Reddit thread for pointing it out. In chapter 30 of WoR, Shallan apparently sees events elsewhere and elsewhen on Roshar: I at first thought this was related to Shallan's mnemonic ability, something all Lightweavers are known to have. However, sprocket44 on Reddit pointed out that this might actually be another application of Illumination. Specifically, it seems to be similar to how Renarin, a Truthwatcher, "sees" things. What to Shallan and Renarin have in common? Control of Illumination. To summarize, there are two ways of using Illumination: Creating illusions, or seeing events of a different time and place. What I think is going on here, is each surge is being either Pushed or Pulled. With Gravitation, a Basic Lashing Pushes on the gravity of an object, changing the direction of force only on the object that was lashed. A Reverse Lashing obviously Pulls, causing objects to be gravitationally attracted to the object which you're lashing. With Illumination, you Push the surge out of your body to create constructs of Light, or waves of sound. You Pull on it to receive glimpses of distant events. I'm not quite sure which aspect of Progression is Pushing or Pulling. Regrowth might be Pushing, since you give something to the subject, which would make Growth the Pulling power, in which you Pull on the flora around you to stimulate it. The terms Pulling and Pushing are obviously more commonly associated with Allomancy. Each base metal allows an Allomancer to Pull on something, while each alloy Pushes. However, I do think they can and should be applied to Surgebinding. Brandon as stated that one of his goals with the Cosmere is to create a "Magical Theory of Everything," where all magic systems in the Cosmere operate on the same basic principles. Categorizing surge manipulation as Pushing and Pulling is a clean and logical way of organizing those powers. I would love to get a viewpoint from Hoid, where he uses bronze to listen to someone Surgebind. This probably won't happen until Mistborn Era 4, unfortunately. Lastly, this theory is obviously incomplete. We've only seen one use of some surges so far. With Abrasion, Slicking is probably the Pulling power, and the Pushing power would be related to increasing friction, and probably the Dustbringers' ability to light stuff on fire. What about the others? What would the "opposite" of sticking two objects together with a vacuum? What would the opposites of Soulcasting and Elsecalling even look like? Ah well. Oathbginer comes out in two days. We'll probably know a lot more by then.

Oathbringer had some interesting clues about surgebinders. In the expanded, original Nahodan vision, Nahodan laments that due to a war with a surgebinder they were not prepared for the desolations. IIRC, his book laid the foundation for some of the KR oaths -- so this would mean that there were surgebinders before Knights Radiant. I cannot recall the reference, but I also believe that the heralds were extreme wary of the KR until Issai instituted the oaths. With Honor gone, it seems like there may be limitations removed from surgebinders. We may see surgebinding and nahel bonds not constrained by the oaths, and dangerous and destructive aspects of the surges unbound. (I suspect that this also played a part in the Recreance, they (like Nale) felt that surgebinding had to be supressed and maybe even deliberately killed their spren so that they wouldn't bond to others.)

This completely insane theory occurred to me when I was watching the allomantic metals chart on the coppermind after reading this thread. So my theorie is this: there are actually 16 surges and each knight radiant gets three surges. So I think there are sixteen surges because there are sixteen shards of adonalsium, that alone is not enough evidence. But, there are sixty-four allomantic metals which divided by four gives us the modern metals, the god metals and two more sets of metals( the only MB books I read are the first three and like three chapters of wax and wayne, but I suspect that one of these sets is made off of alloys of the metal that gave the first mistborns their powers) now if you take the modern metals you can divide them into four groups of four metals: the physical the mental(cognitive), the enhancement (I believe spiritual realm because it deals with power?) and the temporal ( I feel like time exists in a different way in the Cosmere. In earth time doesn't really exist in the sense that allows one to time travel, because what happened a long time ago isn't happening anymore. But in the Cosmere this isn't true, the things that happened a long time ago are still happening somewhen. This is why the temporal metals exist even though there is no temporal realm). Each quadrant has four types of metal, again we divide four by four giving us: the pushing metals, the pulling metals, the external metals and the internal metals. As I have said above this information alone is not enough, this could be scadrial's magic system, however one must keep in mind that there are sixteen shards of Adonalsium(which can also be made into groups of four: spiritual, physical, temporal and cognitive which can be further divided by four etc.etc.). And preservation refers to 16 as the number humankind could never forget. Now, you may have noticed that the Cosmere is somewhat obsessed with the number 16 and therefore 4 and 2 (4×4=16 and 2×2×2×2=16 and whatnot). Now, if you try to break down the number 10 (I think it's called making it into factors or something but I didn't learn maths in English so I don't know), you get 5×2. I still think there were 10 orders of knights radiant and all of the other 10s. Another thing that makes me believe there are actually sixteen surges is that the surges weren't listed by a sliver. In HoA harmony states that the lord ruler gained a lot of knowledge ( regarding investiture and its uses) when he ascended, and he was the one that made the metals chart. I don't know what the heralds are but I don't think they have as much investiture as a sliver, has khriss states in the scadrial essay that scadrial is the planet where it is relatively easier for regular people to come into contact with vast amounts of investiture and the heralds were once regular people (I think it's in one of the first chapters of WoK). This is where @glamdring804 's theory comes in. I believe we have seen opposing surges, however they are seperate surges. I also think that knights radiant get three surges one set of external/internal surges and an extra. I'm not sure if the surges can be accounted for has primery, secondary and tertiary in the sense that one is more powerful than the others. Another one of the reasons I also think that the kr get three surges is because the heralds have three attributes. When they became the ten fools their main attribute was corrupted. I think they still have their main attributes buried somewhere because darkness doesn't do anything to lift (after he admits he has failed) because let's face it, lift committed many (minor) crimes, judgement would drive darkness to at least fine lift or something, but justice acknowledges that these (minor)crimes were committed for a good cause. And the corrupted attribute is almost opposite to the main attribute. So, I will now give you my opinion on the surges individually and how they should be organized. I think they were listed incorrectly due to vorinistic bias. -Adhesion- "The surge of pressure and vaccum" I'm pretty sure pressure and vaccum aren't the same thing in fact they are opposites. When something is under pressure its being pushed outward trying to expand and uncompress, while something that is in vaccum is being pulled inward trying to fill the void. I think that this surge was listed incorrectly. And windrunners clearly only use vaccum when they use a full lashing. I have no idea what the surge of pressure would do. Maybe OB will shed some light on this topic. -Gravitation- "The surge of gravity" more like the surges of gravity. Basic lashings could be pushing and the reverse lashings could be pulling because they give objects a gravitational pull( or it might be the other way around I don't know). -Division- "The surge of destruction and decay" I think that this is also two surges in one. Decay and destruction aren't the same thing. Decay happens slowly( wherever this one is in the "surges chart" its where ruin should be listed under in the "shards chart"), whereas destruction is more immediate and brutal. I think that decay is the internal surge and desctrution the external one. I also think that these are temporal surges has something can only decay, heal and grow in time; destruction doesn't take that much time but its clearly external to decay. -Abrasion- "The surge of friction" This is only one surge. I think this is one of the physical surges. And its the edgedancer's "extra", well its not really an extra but I think I already said that. -Progression- "The surge of growth and healing, or regrowth" So I believe this are two different surges and that they are the edgedancers main surges. -Illumination- "The surge of light, sound, and various waveforms" So, this is only one surge, its the lightweavers main surge, and its the one that the truthwatchers get for having its opposing surge. In WoR we learn that illumination's internal surge enables someone to witness, in some way, things that are happening or maybe that have already happened or will happen. @Glamdring804 said I at first thought this was related to Shallan's mnemonic ability, something all Lightweavers are known to have. However, sprocket44 on Reddit pointed out that this might actually be another application of Illumination. Specifically, it seems to be similar to how Renarin, a Truthwatcher, "sees" things. I think this is another surge entirely and I'll just call it the "truthwatching surge" for now ( if you come up with any name suggestions for the surges that have no names please tell me, because "the surge used for reverse lashings" doesn't quite roll off the tongue) -Transformation- "The surge of soulcasting" This is only one surge, i think it may be cognitive. -Transportation- "The surge of motion and realmatic transition" I think that this is two surges in one.Motion and realmatic transition ( the real transportation surge I think ). The fact that motion and realmatic transition were assumed to be one surge means that elsecallers are the only order of kr that can use motion or realmatic transition, because they are not on the same quadrant on the "surges chart". -Cohesion- "The surge of strong axial interconnection" This is only one surge and its opposite is clearly "the surge of strong axial interconnections". In fact that they are not considered one surge means there is no order of kr that has them as a main surge. -Tension- "The surge of strong axial interconnection" This is just one surge, and its opposite is cohesion what this surge does I have no idea. This is how I think the surges should be organized ("surges chart"), they are 16: -the surge used for reverse lashings- the spiritual external pushing surge. -Vaccum- the spiritual internal pulling surge. -The surge used for basic lashings- the spiritual external pushing surge. -Pressure- the spiritual internal pushing surge. -Healing- the tempuraal internal pushing or pulling surge. -Growth- the temporal external pushing or pulling surge (whichever is healing's, this means the if healing is the pushing surge then growth is the pushing surge but, if healing is the pulling surge then growth is the pulling surge) -Decay- the temporal internal pushing or pulling surge -Destruction- the temporal external pushing or pulling surge (whichever is decay's) -Illumination- the cognitive external pushing or pulling surge -"Truthwatching surge"- the cognitive internal pushing or pulling surge (whichever is illumination's) -Transformation- the cognitive external pushing or pulling surge. -Transportation- the cognitive internal pushing or pulling surge (whichever is transformation) -Coheson- the physical internal pushing or pulling surge -Motion- the physical external pushing or pulling surge (whichever is cohesion's) -Tension- the physical internal pushing or pulling surge -Abrasion- the physical external pushing or pulling surges (whichever is tension's). This is the kr orders surges (the orders that we know): -order name- External surge/internal surge--extra surge -Windrunners- Reverse lashing surge/vaccum--basic lashing surge. -Lightweavers- Illumination/"truthwatching" surge-- transformation -Elsecallers- Transportation/transformation--motion -Edgedancers- Growth/healing--abrasion. -Truthwatchers- "Truthwatching surge"/illumination -- ???? So, feel free to shoot my theory to the ground. And if you agree with me then look for more 16 in the Cosmere.

=== This theory has been moved from the Stormlight Board and updated for Oathbringer. Spoilers start at this post. Read at your own risk === So, this is a theory that I've kinda been kicking around in the back of my head for a while, and I've written some posts using this assumption. However, I've never atually gone and typed up a formal theory post. I... kinda made one on tumblr, but that doesn't count, so I've gotta get it up over here. For those of you alergic to tumblr posts, fret not. I'm going to put all that information over here. Now, as of the Shadows of Self signing, I've got some Word of Brandon on the subject as well! So it's high time we got this thing out here. I'll put the theory itself first, in-book justification, and then Brandon's responses to my questions. Theory: Renarin Kholin's visions throughout Words of Radiance are not a normal manifestation of Truthwatcher powers. They are likely not regular Surgebinding at all and may not even be related to his status as a Truthwatcher. Now, perhaps this seems counter-intuitive. Renarin says in WoR Ch. 89 that he's a Truthwatcher, which means he "sees." He's been seeing throughout the whole book, counting down to the arrival of the Everstorm. Why wouldn't those two be the same thing? Well, there's a few very good reasons why there seems to be more going on with Renarin than originally meets the eye: Arguments: #1 - Renarin's visions do not match other Radiants' expressions of his Surges. Admittedly, we have seen very little use of shared Surges by different orders, but from what we have seen, Surge expression seems to be very similar between sharing orders. Jasnah and Shallan's Soulcasting seems to work the same way, to the point that Jasnah believes she can teach Shallan how Soulcasting works, even though they have different Orders. We see both Ym (who is a Truthwatcher!) and Lift use their shared surge of Regrowth, and in both cases, it seems to work in an almost identical way. We would expect therefore, that Renarin's Surges, Regrowth and Illumination, would manifest in the same way as other users of these Surges. As stated above, we had two separate practitioners of Regrowth in WoR, one of whom was actually a Truthwatcher. On the other side, we've seen extensive use of Illumination thanks to Shallan, who goes through all kinds of self-training and uses of her Illumination powers. With these examples, we should be able to make a very educated guess as to what Renarin's Surgebinding capabilities are, even though we don't actually see him using these powers himself. The problem? Neither of those two surges seem to do anything close to what Renarin's visions do. The visions don't line up with either Illumination as we know it or Regrowth. You might be able to argue that Truthwatchers use Illumination differently than Lightweavers (which I'll support wholeheartedly, but that's a different topic) but this level of difference is difficult to justify. The more logical explanation is that something entirely different is going on. #2 - Renarin's visions appear to be involuntary, compulsive, and entirely outside of his control. [ CONFIRMED: See below ] Renarin is seeing the future, which is highly taboo in Vorin culture. This isn’t something I believe he would choose to do. Considering the way that he hides this from his family throughout the book and the high level of distress he shows in the finale with Shallan, this does not appear to be something he is choosing to experience on his own. In the same way that seeing the future is taboo, so is writing for men. If Renarin does not want to reveal that he’s seeing the future, we wouldn’t expect him to voluntarily write things down. Seeing him succumb to the vision at the end, he cries out and screams as he writes, and the way that he continues to write the same thing over and over make this seem like an involuntary reaction, going as far to be something he would fight if he could, but cannot. He loses control and is forced to write the glyphs. Additionally, Renarin cannot control entering or leaving the visions. While we do see Kaladin and Shallan using their surges unintentionally, we never see them using Stormlight against their will. With Shallan and Kaladin, it is a subconcious thing, rather than something done with them actively fighting it. Shallan is never trapped within an illusion, struggling to get out of it. Kaladin does not ever find himself unable to stop using Stormlight, or toppling into the sky as gravity suddenly yanks him the wrong way without him asking it to. As soon as those two become aware of their surgebinding, they can control it, even if they started unintentionally. Renarin’s visions show no such control. He seems to be able to feel them coming on, but can't do anything to stop them. Once within a vision, he can't get out until the vision itself decides to end. Renarin cannot do anything to stop or resist the visions. They are entirely against his will. #3 - Dalinar's visions are another example of involuntary, uncontrolled, compulsive visions which are not Surgebinding. Now, don't say it. Yes I know that Dalinar is a Surgebinder by the end of Words of Radiance. However, I am fairly certain that he was not a Surgebinder before the very end, when he actually bonds with the Stormfather. And he has been experiencing visions since before Way of Kings started. I take this to mean that they're not Surgebinding. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's the assumption I'm working under for now. Dalinar's and Renarin's visions are incredibly similar actually. Both are involuntary and unable to be resisted. Both involve visions. Both have an element of compulsive actions, as Dalinar moves and speaks in other languages and Renarin has an almost hypergraphic need to write during his visions, despite that Renarin probably hasn't ever written before this. They also appear to both be tied to highstorms, since they happen at the same time. Perhaps most telling is the fact that Dalinar seems to think that Renarin's future-sight is his own up until the reveal, and that he simply can't remember it happening. That said, there are differences. Dalinar sees the past, Renarin sees the future. Dalinar is completely unaware of the real world while in the midst of his visions. Renarin seems to know and be aware of what's happening to him, even though he can no longer control his body. Dalinar seems to act out what he's experiencing, Renarin writes. Still, I would argue that Renarin's visions have more in common with Dalinar's visions than with Shallan's Illumination. If Dalinar and Renarin shared a Surge, I'd be comfortable saying that they were a shared Surge. But Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are actually on directly opposite ends of the Radiant Orders. If this is supposed to be Surgebinding, why are they manifesting similar powers in opposite Orders? Why did Dalinar's start before his Nahel bond? My answer: they're not Surgebinding. Neither one of them. Relevant Canon Texts and Commentary: All are from WoR, because I can’t find any significant evidence of Renarin's powers in WoK. Does Renarin use his powers somehow to hide his coming into the room and writing the glyphs? Does he put Dalinar to sleep somehow? It’s possible. The sudden break between the paragraphs is strange here... Sloppy lines, unpracticed at drawing glyphs. Renarin is not used to writing. He also might have been fighting against the complusion to write as he did it. This is right after the fight with Szeth. Renarin was towed back by Moash at the beginning, and then Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin fought. After Kaladin ran Szeth off outside the palace, he was unconscious for an indeterminate amount of time, and then the glyphs were found when he got back. It’s interesting that Renarin would choose to provide the translation, when Navani is there and could read it herself. I would have thought he would not want to implicate himself in the glyphs by reading them. Or perhaps his compulsion pushed him to provide the translation here? I’m mostly putting this in here because it’s another iteration of the glyphs and I wanted them all. The real interesting stuff comes from the discussion afterward between Dalinar and Adolin. Seeing as Renarin is the one doing the carving and not Dalinar, Adolin’s theory is undoubtedly what happened. One wonders if Renarin maintains enough control during the visions to be able to hide himself. Does he have enough autonomy to be able to frame Dalinar for the carvings and keep himself from being implicated? And here we see the reason that Renarin doesn’t come forward with the fact that it’s him. Adolin is used to the idea of his father losing control of himself during Highstorms, but this is taking it a step too far, it seems. Considering that Renarin is already quite an outsider in Vorin culture, he doesn’t want to make it worse. Dalinar is very self-assured even though his own visions are making him lose credit among the other lighteyes. Renarin is not. Over the sounds of me hissing protectively while clutched around my darling and glaring at Shallan, here we have the first time that Renarin is shown doing something strange and/or powery. No one else can sense the Everstorm yet. Pattern mentioned that the storm was coming to Shallan but Renarin seems to be able to sense it on his own. Even being warned about it, Shallan doesn’t see anything. Feather continues to be generally upset in Shallan’s direction. It’s interesting again that he says something here. If he’s trying to hide the fact he can see the future, wouldn’t he keep quiet? Is this right here voluntary or compelled? Feather continues to be GENERALLY STRESSED ABOUT RENARIN’S WELLBEING. By this point we’re definitely getting into involuntary territory. He’s feverish and crying out and screaming. I’m guessing we’re watching Renarin on the cusp of succumbing to the vision, yelling out in defiance right on the edge of it taking him over. Then he’s lost and the writing happens. That said, even as he’s lost control, he continues to talk, whispering as he writes. (UNRELATED SCREAMS OF RAGE) Okay this quote doesn’t really show much of his powers. We’ll say it’s here for the sake of completeness and not because Feather felt like raging at the heavens. Honestly, by this point, I’m really surprised that Shallan continues to think that Renarin is mad or crazy. Considering he’s been giving the exact same warnings as Pattern you’d think she’d catch on that this is a real thing. In some cases, Renarin’s warnings came before Pattern's. So here we see what is really the only argument for Renarin's visions being Truthwatching. I'm not convinced. I think that Renarin probably is a Truthwatcher, since there's other evidence that his Nahel bond is legitimate - screaming Shardblades, healed eyes, Glys, etc. -- but I don't take this as immediately confirming that what's happening with his visions is an expression of Surgebinding. I think the visions are either unrelated, or if related (less likely in my opinion), somehow influenced by an outside force as well. It’s also worth noting here that Glys uses masculine pronouns. Aside from Dalinar and the Stormfather, all other Nahel bonds have been between opposite gender pairs: Shallan/Pattern, Kaladin/Syl, Jasnah/Ivory, Lift/Wyndle, Ym/unnamed spren. Word of Brandon: These questions were asked by me, the first at the Words of Radiance Midnight Release (I'd already finished it at that point) and the latter two at the Shadows of Self Midnight Release. Unfortunately, I don't have direct quotes, though I think the SoS questions were recorded, but haven't been transcribed yet. The WoR Release question is unfortunately very far from verbatim as I just asked and didn't write down the answer until a few hours later. Silly Feather. The SoS two, while also not direct quotes, were written down right after being given. Feather: Is there something important in the fact that Glys and Renarin both have masculine pronouns, while other Nahel bonds have been opposite gender? Brandon: There is something to it, though maybe not what you're thinking of. (Answer is very paraphrased, sorry. I'm not entirely sure what he thought I was thinking of...) Feather: Are Renarin's visions compulsive/involuntary? Brandon: There is an element of that to them, yes. Feather: Are Renarin's visions Surgebinding? Brandon: *evil laughter* RAFO!

Ok, so, for those of you who are unaware, nicrosil stores investiture. This is a poorly understood branch of feruchemy, and at first may seem about as useless as allomantic cadmium. However, it allows you to do some really weird stuff. So here's my theory: If a nicrosil ferring (or full feruchemist) were to become a surgebinder, they could use the stored up investiture in place of stormlight. Of course it might not be nearly enough (this is a very distinct possibility), which could be remedied by A: Storing up huge amounts of investiture, or B: Being a Nicrosil compounder (just get a bit o' the old nicrosil-lerasium alloy). It might also not work that way/not be the right type of investiture (which I very much doubt). However, if it did work, imagine the potential! Surgebinder-Nicroferrings could go anywhere in the Cosmere! Tell me if you think this theory is possible, and, if it is, what you'd do if you were a surgebinder (choose an order)/nicrosil compounder.

This might be a pointless thread, but it's something that struck me as weird. The Coppermind and the Stormlight Archive refer to Ym as a likely Truthwatcher. Considering the fact that he gave children shoes in exchange for their stories. That seems to be more in line with the Edgedancers oath to "remember those who have been forgotten." I don't remember him doing anything that resembled casting illusions like you would expect with Lightweaving.

Specifically, since they're so similar could they be used by each others magical systems without using magical hacks?

Brandon says Roshar has three magic systems, plus the “weird” Old Magic. I think Voidbringing is a fifth Rosharan magic system. This post explores how I believe each magic system works. Quick background: Forum consensus agrees there are at least three magic system components: “Fuel” (Investiture that causes the magic), “Focus” (a component that determines the power available for magic), and “Magic User” (the person who directs the magic). I think there’s a fourth component, “Catalyst,” which Khriss describes as a substance Magic Users consume to cause Shard power to Invest them. (BoM Ars Arcanum - Allomancy.) Catalysts, IMO, make the Magic User an Invested object capable of directing the Invested power. I believe there are three types of magic systems, all of which are found on Roshar. “Interaction with nature” systems use Fuel and a means to Focus power. In “people with magic” systems, Magic Users can direct the magic. Some“people with magic” systems use a Catalyst to access power, and some don’t. IMO, these are the Rosharan Shards’ Mandates (intents): Honor makes bonds, Cultivation makes change, and Odium breaks bonds. I think every Rosharan Magic User, mortal or voidish, uses the same powers, what Rosharans call Surges. Shard Mandates determine how Magic Users use the powers. Background done. Here are the systems, starting with the ones we know best. Surgebinding (Catalytic system) The Magic User is the Surgebinder. I agree with those who think spren are Roshar’s Focus. (Some posters think Roshar’s bonds are its Focus.) I believe Radiantspren’s mixed Investitures make them dual Focuses. IMO, Honor and/or Cultivation’s power is Surgebinding’s Fuel. Surgebinders consume Stormlight as their Catalyst to cause power to Invest them. The Radiantspren as Focus determine which power Invests the Surgebinder. I think the Surgebinder “binds” the Surges by directing the Invested power to create the magical effect – choosing gravity’s vector or drawing a new persona. Fabrials (Catalytic “people with magic” system) The fabrial user turns the fabrial on and off, and IMO is the Magic User. I think the gem-captured spren is the Focus. IMO, the gemstone filters Stormlight to replicate the symbiotic conditions of a gemheart. Spren consume the Stormlight and Focus their power on the machine they think is a lifeform. The spren-Focused power animates the machine for the desired magical effect. Shard power is the Fuel, and Stormlight is the Catalyst. Voidbinding (Catalytic “people with magic” system) I theorize Voidbinding is Odium’s form of Surgebinding. Because Surgebinding needs the Nahel bond to bind Surges, I speculate Voidbinding breaks bonds to bind the Surges. I think Voidbinding binds the same Surges as Surgebinding, except the Bondsmith Surges (or maybe just the Bondsmith’s “perks”). I think Voidbinding is a Catalytic system. I speculate the Nine Unmade combine two Voidbinding abilities like Heralds (other than the Bondsmith). “Void Knights” (if they exist) would have their patron Unmade’s abilities, like KR. The Unmade and any Void Knights would be Magic Users, voidspren would be the Focus, “Voidlight” the Catalyst, and Odium’s power the Fuel. If Odium’s power breaks bonds, then Voidlight IMO destroys matter. Only bondless bits remain – a Void of unreflected light. I think Voidlight’s Spiritual energy shows in Gavilar’s sphere, but nothing else, not even the spren it contains. I suggest an “Ever-Stormfather” Focuses Odium’s power into Voidlight, like the Stormfather Focuses Honor’s power (IMO) into Stormlight. Voidbringing (Non-Catalytic “people with magic” system) I believe Odium Investiture in voidspren form invades other spren like a virus. The “virus” voidspren replaces the target spren’s Spiritual DNA. Odium can then change and control the target spren’s host. I think Voidbringing most resembles Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy’s power to transfer innate Investiture Invests the metal spike. Voidspren, to me, equate to Hemalurgical spikes. Odium Invests each voidspren with the power to replace the target spren’s Investiture with its own. That power IMO is Voidbringing’s Fuel. Like spren in Roshar’s other magic systems, voidspren are Voidbringing’s Focus. I believe Hemalurgy and Voidbringing are non-Catalytic systems because power Invests the spike/voidspren, not the Magic User. Until stormspren summon the Ever-Stormfather, IMO Odium’s power can’t be Focused into Voidlight. Hence, Voidbringing can work without a Catalyst. Sja-anat (mentioned in Dalinar’s Purelake vision) seems able to direct Voidbringing. If so, Sja-anat is a Magic User. We don’t know if a Void Knight Order supports Sja-Anat or if other Unmade can Voidbring. It’s possible Odium alone Voidbrings. Without Magic Users, Voidbringing would be an “interaction with nature” system, mirroring Roshar’s pre-Shattering ecosystem with corrupted spren. The “Old Magic” (“Interaction with nature” system) I think the Old Magic is an Adonalsium-created “interaction with nature” system that Shard Investiture changed. I speculate the Nightwatcher (by some other name) began as a large splinter that native Rosharans personified into a sapient spren. We don’t know its original magic. I think Cultivation’s Investiture and human personification of Cultivation morphed that spren into the Nightwatcher. IMO, as an “interaction with nature” system, the Old Magic has two components. The Old Magic’s Fuel is Cultivation’s power. Its Focus is the Nightwatcher herself. The Old Magic remains an “interaction with nature” system, though Shard Invested, because mortals don’t direct its magic. They can ask the Nightwatcher for a boon; but she determines both the boon and the curse. Av tells Baxil, the Nightwatcher “gives [the boon] she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it.” (WoK, Interlude I-7, Kindle p. 709.)

We know from here that Nightblood is a sort of splinter (which makes his creation even more amazing/terrifying to me, cause apparently Vasher and Shashara managed to forge a self aware splinter from 1000 Breaths worth of investiture), and that he was made with at least partial knowledge of Shardblades. I also have reason to believe that Sazeth, who we know is bonded to Nightblood, is NOT bonded to a Highspren but does have the surgebinding abilities of a Skybreaker. (See minor Eddgedancer Spoilers). This leads me to wonder what else might grant surgebinding abilities, and of what sort? Would a person from Sel who (somehow) managed to get to Roshar have surgebinding if they held a seon or skaze (which are splinters of Dominion and Devotion respectively)? If so, what would determine the type of surges they have access too? Thoughts?

So recently i have been wondering if having enough or running out of stormlight was an issue post Recreance. during the Desolations it didn't seem to me like there was any mention either way and i just am wondering if maybe they just used bigger gems or if the level of oaths made them more connected to the spiritual realm and if they were possibly drawing investiture straight from there. maybe that's why their shardplate used to glow. I just wanted to get a discussion up, I'm interested to hear everyone's opinion

Hey guys, has anybody asked Brandon about Hoid and whether or not any of the spren are paying attention to him or vice-versa? I can't find any relevant WoB's in my searching. I imagine Hoid, who seems to be collecting different magic abilities, would be highly interested in having a nahel bond, giving him access to surgebinding. if anyone has a relevant WoB or information on this it would be highly appreciated

For some months now, I’ve been working on creating a framework for all of the magic systems of Roshar that combines everything we know about them and makes predictions for that which we don’t know. This topic is the end result. Since I’m aiming for completeness, there will be things here that are already well understood, as well as things that I haven’t seen proposed before. So, with apologies for the sheer length that it has become, allow me to present my framework. Magics by Shardic Composition Let's start by listing the various Rosharan powers and classifying them by the Shards which power them. Magic Shardic Composition Surgebinding Honour & Cultivation Ancient Fabrials Honour & Cultivation Modern Fabrials Cultivation Old Magic Cultivation Voidbinding Honour & Odium Voidbringer Powers Cultivation & Odium Surgebinding My classification of Surgebinding shouldn't be raising any eyebrows since it is well understood that each type of Radiant spren is some mix of both Honour and Cultivation. However, let's take a moment to consider how the two powers manifest in Surgebinding as this will provide insight into how I've classified the other magics. While there are many different interpretations of honour, they ultimately all come down to the interaction between two or more people: in a universe with only one person, it would be impossible for them to act honourably (nor to act dishonourably), for there would be no one for them to act honourably towards. This duality is reflected, I believe, in Honour's magic. The most obvious example of this would be the necessity to bond spren in order to perform it. Now, you could argue that since the listeners were bonding spren long before the Shards came to Roshar, this would mean that bonding spren is not related to Honour specifically. However, the listener bond is, by its very nature, very different to the Nahel bond; seemingly less a mutually beneficial partnership, and more a natural process. I would contend, therefore, that this is an example of Honour incorporating this aspect of the Rosharan environment into his magic out of necessity. I do not think that this idea of duality is limited only to the bonding of spren, however; I think that it extends even to the way that the powers form. You likely noticed that in my listing of the various magics that there is no system that is entirely of Honour. I think that Honour's nature means that he requires a second Shard to mix his power with in order to form a magic system. In other words, it would not be in his nature to form a magic that is purely his own. Another example of Honour's effect on Surgebinding is in its structure: the way that Surgebinders are divided up precisely into distinct predetermined Radiant Orders based off of their interpretation of honour, and their determination to emulate that ideal. And also, the way that the powers are divided up between the different orders. This is a rigid and inflexible framework, much like the Radiant’s Ideals can be. In short, this is where the "binding" in Surgebinding comes from: Honour is bound to another Shard and the Radiants to their spren, their Orders, and their Ideals. So if Honour provides a structure to Surgebinding, what does Cultivation provide? I think that it is through Cultivation that Surgebinders get to manipulate the Surges. If we look at the spren associated with each of the Shards, Honour's spren are those of emotion, again linking back to human interaction. Cultivation's spren, however, are the spren of nature, so it makes sense that it is Cultivation's power that gives access to the natural Surges. Now, I can imagine it being argued that since on Scadrial, all the magic systems revolve around metals, surely all the magic systems of Roshar should likewise revolve around the Surges, not simply the ones associated with Cultivation. However, I would argue that this is a false analogy: the metals on Scadrial act as a focus, the Surges on Roshar do not. The powers produced by the Metallic Arts (with the exceptions of Allomantic iron, steel, aluminium, and chromium) are not related to metal themselves. Therefore, whilst all of the Rosharan magic systems should share a common focus, it should not necessarily be the case that they all share the Surges. Modern Fabrials Now with that established, it should be obvious why I think that Fabrials are a magic system purely of Cultivation. They lack the rigid structure that I have associated with Honour, and while the spren are still part of the magic, they are trapped inside the gemstones rather than working with the user as you would expect in Honour’s magic. This leaves Cultivation as the only reasonable candidate, which in turn means that they must be utilising the surges in some way. Although, without the rigidity of Honour’s framework, the way they manifest is apparently quite different. Ancient Fabrials The first thing to note here is that these fabrials do not seem to have much in common with modern fabrials, to the point that I suspect that calling them fabrials at all is a misnomer. Modern fabrials all function by trapping a spren in a gemstone, ancient fabrials do not appear to do this. Spren are clearly involved in some way, just as they are in every other magic; we in fact see this in the operation of the Oathgates. In order to activate them, you need a Shardblade, i.e. the physical manifestation of a spren that is part Cultivation and part Honour. Moreover, the spren needs to be alive. This implies that the person operating the Oathgate needs to be working together with the spren, which sounds just like an Honour based magic. This would mean that the ancient fabrials are far more closely related to the Surgebindings than they are to modern fabrials. Which makes sense given that the effects we have seen (Soulcasting, Regrowth, Transportation) appear to be the same as various Surgebindings. In fact, when Nale heals Szeth with one of these ancient fabrials, he actually refers to it as a Surgebinding. Ideally I would compare the operation of the Oathgates to that of other ancient fabrials, unfortunately though, we haven’t really seen enough of these yet to be able to draw anything meaningful from them. The Old Magic This isn’t a magic like others on this list: it's not something that people can perform; instead, it seems to be practised solely by the Nightwatcher, about whom the only things we can really say with confidence are that she is some kind of “mega-spren”, closely related to Cultivation. This would suggest then that the Old Magic can be described as similar to a sapient, self-operating fabrial. I don’t think that there’s much more that can be said at this point without additional information about the Old Magic or the Nightwatcher. Voidbinding This brings us to the only magic system on the list which I believe to be unrelated to Cultivation. If we look at the Voidbinding chart from the back of The Way of Kings, it is immediately obvious that the structure of the magic is the same as Surgebinding. It even has "binding" in its name, hence why I think that it is of Honour. However, if we look at the symbols where, on the Surgebinding chart, the Surges are placed, we see not the symbols for the Surges, but a twisted version of them. Hence I do not think that Voidbinding will be related to the Surges at all, and hence Cultivation has no part in Voidbinding. Voidbringer Powers And finally, we come to the powers that were demonstrated at the end of Words of Radiance by the Voidbringers. Why do I think that this isn't Voidbinding? We have a WoB that we haven't seen Voidbinding yet, but we have seen these powers, therefore they must be something different. Additionally we have the following WoBs: Since the Voidbringers are forms of the Parshendi, and the Parshendi are not of Honour, if my classification of Voidbinding as being of Honour is correct, then the Voidbringers cannot be Voidbinders. So, why do I think that the Voidbringers are related to Cultivation rather than purely of Odium? If we have a look at Dalinar’s vision of the Purelake, we see him looking for a voidspren, which ultimately ends up animating a thunderclast. The voidspren is described to him as: “A spren that doesn’t act like it should”, not as a new type of spren. And apparently this is a result of the spren interacting with Sja-anat, an Unmade. What’s more, the spren they end up chasing has a resemblance to a riverspren, a type of nature spren, which is therefore related to Cultivation. I would propose, therefore, that the Unmade corrupt spren to make voidspren. When the spren was originally of Cultivation they go on to form Voidbringers and thunderclasts and the like. And when the spren was originally of Honour, they will bond to form Voidbinders. On Initiation The first thing to note here is that not all magics require an Initiation in order to be used. Some, such as Haemalurgy, are universal and can be used by anyone. Modern fabrials also seem to fall under this category. In order to use a magic, you need three things: intent, Investiture, and a focus. In the case of fabrials, the Investiture and the focus are both incorporated into the device itself. In other words, the user only needs to provide the intent to use the fabrial in order for it to work. The crucial part here is that the user does not need to access an external source of Investiture themselves: the fabrial does that for them. The Old Magic is not relevant to this discussion since it is restricted to the domain of the Nightwatcher. Also, I don’t think we’ve seen enough of the ancient fabrials yet in order to determine whether they would also be universal or not, so, for the time being, I’ll pass over these two magics. The remaining magics all seem to require Initiation. Khriss’ comments on Initiation in Elantris’ Ars Arcanum suggest that the method of Initiation across all of the magics on any given world is consistent. I think it should be fairly obvious, therefore, that the method of Initiation here is the spren bond. All of the remaining magics utilise a spren bond in some form, and Syl has openly admitted to Kaladin that she is the reason that he is able to Surgebind. On the Rosharan Focus So far I’ve seen theories on the focus claim that it’s either the gemstones, or the spren, or the spren bond. Firstly, I don’t think that it can be the spren bond: I have already demonstrated that it is the method of Initiation and I don’t see how it can be both. Also, as previously noted, not all magics require a spren bond, but all magics require a focus which is consistent across all Rosharan magics, therefore if the spren bond were the focus, this would be a contradiction. Things get interesting when we start to examine the spren and the gemstones as candidates for the focus, however. When examining Soulcasting, the gemstones act exactly as you would expect the focus to, the type of gemstone used determines the result of the transformation. However, this does not appear to be the case with any other magic that we have seen, which should mean that the gemstones can’t be the focus. The spren seem like an ideal candidate for the focus since they are, like the gemstones, present in some capacity in all Rosharan magics. Moreover, as they are capable of changing their form at will, if they are the focus then they should be able to direct the form that the power takes by themselves. And, we saw in the climax to Words of Radiance, Syl was able to accurately determine the weapon that Kalaldin wished her to form without him having to actively communicate it to her, it would follow then, that the Radiant spren could do the same thing to provide their Radiant with the power that they wished to use. And since in modern fabrials, the spren would presumably be trapped in a single form, it would account for why fabrials each have only a single function. There is, however, a problem with using spren as the Rosharan focus, and it is essentially the same problem that we ran into when we tried considering the gemstones as the focus: when considering Soulcasting, it is clearly the gemstones, not the spren that is determining the result of the transformation. So both the spren and the gemstones must be the focus, but neither the spren nor the gemstones can be the focus! To resolve this, I think we’re going to need to take a closer look at what a focus actually is. To start off with, I don’t think that a focus is actually physical. Everything in the Cosmere exists to some extent across all three Realms, so that we might be able to see or interact with it in the Physical Realm does not mean that this is where the magical interaction is happening. If we look at AonDor, the focus like in all Selish magics is shapes, however, an Aon will continue to function even if you were to destroy its physical representation. Indeed Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, which shouldn’t have a physical body at all. And of course, on Nalthis, they use Commands as a focus which, being auditory, likewise shouldn’t have a physical body. I suspect that it is in the Cognitive Realm that these gain a more concrete, not to mention, permanent, form. So, Investiture flows from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive Realm where it interacts with the focus and is filtered down into the Physical Realm in the form determined by that focus. But, if the focus is cognitive, then shouldn’t it be possible for it to be something more abstract in nature, such as a function? We know that gemstones and spren have some kind of relationship with each other. Just consider Navani’s notebook: Could it be the case that spren and gemstones are bound together as variables in a cognitive function that is acting as the focus on Roshar? When spren are imprisoned in gemstones, is that what’s really happening, or are they instead being constrained to the same space as part of such a function? This is what I think is happening here: neither the spren nor the gemstone is the focus, but they are both components in a kind of complex focus. How the Honourblades Work So, I’ve been repeatedly coming back to the idea that the spren are involved in some way in every magic on Roshar, yet you might have noticed that the Honourblades are an exception to this. They allow their wielder to Surgebind, but they are not themselves spren. In fact, originally, the Honourblades would power Surgebinding by opening a direct conduit to Honour, similar to how Allomancy opens a conduit to Preservation, meaning that even gemstones wouldn’t be needed to provide Stormlight. Thus, the Heralds might not have needed either part of the focus that I specified above. Does this not contradict my argument for the focus? I don’t think so; I think that the way Honour hacked the magic in the Honourblades means that this isn’t an issue. When Preservation hacked Allomancy so that Vin was able to burn the mists, she no longer needed the metals for Allomancy. And similarly, when Vin became Preservation, she was able to power Allomancy for Elend without him having access to the metals. Based off of this, I think it’s clear that a focus is not required when a Shard directly intervenes like this. One final point: it could perhaps be argued that the Honourblades represent the true form of Surgebinding and that the Nahel bond is the true hack since the spren copied the Honourblades. I disagree with this interpretation, though. I think that the Radiant spren have always been able to form the Nahel bond and create Surgebinders since Honour first Invested in Roshar, they simply didn’t know that they could do this. When Honour hacked the system by creating the Honourblades though, the spren were able to figure out that they had this ability from seeing what the Honourblades could do. TL;DR Given the size and scope of this treatise, it is impossible to easily summarise the entire piece, however, a few key points are as follows: Honour’s influence causes a magic to take on a predefined, rigid structure. Voidbinding does not manipulate the Surges at all. Spren Bonds are the basis for Initiation. Roshar has a complex focus which utilises both spren and gemstones as components. The Honourblades negate the need for a focus.

Shallan is a Lightweaver, whose abilities are Transformation (soulcasting) and Illumination (lightweacing). However, I was confused because it seems that Shallan can also visit Shadesmar (The Cognitive Realm), and has done so on a few occasions. This is the ability of Transformation, which belongs to the Order of Elsecallers, which is what Jasnah Kholin is. Does Shallan really have all three abilities? And would that make her both a Lightweaver AND an Elsecaller?

Just realize this existed.. It looks like an ant.

Is there a post anywhere about hereditary Surgebinding? I've found a few posts mentioning things similar to it, but I can't find a single post about it. I mean, the Kholins do have a lot of Surgebinding, so it might be hereditary, right? However, I understand that spren choose 'their human' (or Listener, or whatever), so I'm not quite sure about how relevant the Kholins are. Any thoughts, or, even better, an actual post about this, hidden somewhere in the depths of the 17th Shard?

Why do we get 2 effects from a Nahel bond? Building off the theory that the focus for surgebinding is the Nahel-Bond itself, or more precisely, the puzzle-piece-filling of a Spren into a broken human to form a new reforged/"whole" entity. I posit that it is because the bond works in 2 directions: The spren completing the person's brokenness while the person completes the Spren's sentience. This then implies that each type of bond-forming Spren requires a different aspect of sentience to become whole. So, can we line this up on the Ars Arcanum chart for Divine Attributes and Surges? Let's try! 1st Theory of Combination: Each participant in the bond provides a single row from the Divine Attributes table. - Kaladin provides Protecting/Leading/Adhesion; Syl Provides Just/Confident/Gravitation. - Lift provides Loving/Healing/Abrasion; Wyndle provides Learned/Giving/Progression. - Shallan provides Creative/Honest/Illumination; Pattern provides Wise/Careful/Transformation. Ok this one just looks wrong. Shallan is *not* the honest one in this relationship. But she is the creative one... So on to our... 2nd Theory of Combination: Each Participant provides one of the 2 Divine Attributes from each of the applicable rows in the table. It is then the combination of these 2 attributes that results in the specific surge that is expressed. Furthermore I posit that the two participants in the bond will form an 'X' on the chart between the attributes. Let's see if it holds up: - Kaladin Protecting + Syl Leading = Adhesion; Kaladin Confident + Syl Just = Gravitation. - Lift Loving + Wyndle Healing = Abrasion; Lift Giving + Wyndle Learned = Progression. - Shallan Creative + Pattern Honest = Illumination; Shallan Careful + Pattern Wise = Transformation. - Dalinar Pious + Stormfather Guiding = Tension; Dalinar Leading + Stormfather Protecting = Adhesion OK so far those are looking spot on! Yeah! Now on to more speculative pairings: - Renarin Learned + ____spren Giving = Progression; Renarin Honest + ____spren Creative = Illumination - Jasnah Wise + Ivory Careful = Transformation; Jasnah Builder + Ivory Resolute = Transportation - Skybreaker/Szeth Just + Highspren/Nightblood Confident = Gravitation; Skybreaker/Szeth Obedient + Highspren/Nightblood Brave = Division - Stump (Edgedancer vs. Truthwatcher): I must say I'm stumped by Stump either way. Followup Questions: Can we use this theory to posit the types of spren that will bond the other surgebinders? (E.g. Renarin's spren would in some way bring Giving and Creative to the relationship, so what might that spren be?) Are the Honorspren always Leading & Just and the Windrunner always Protecting and Confident? Could you gain access to the same 2 surges via a different bond with a being who was Leading and Just and a spren who was Protecting and Confident? Could it be that Szeth's pairing with Nightblood is actually a swap/subversion of the traditional Highspren bond? Meaning a normal Skybreaker provides Confident and Brave while the Highspren provides Just and Obedient. Even further - are there 4 types of bonds which could theoretically grant access to the same 2 surges?? (Add Protecting/Just being + Leading Confident spren as well as Leading confident being + Protecting/Just spren.)

I'm probably oversimplifying some pretty complex issues here, and retreading some old ground. But, as I understand it, all end-positive magic systems in the Cosmere are basically this thing: It's called the Fun Factory(tm). You put your Play-Doh(tm) underneath the red flap, then you push the flap down. The pressure forces the Play-Doh through a hole, extruding it into a funny shape. The blob of Play-Doh that goes into it? That's your investiture source. Preservation. Stormlight. The Dor. It's raw Shardic power. Formless and without specific function. The Fun Factory is you. The Allomancer, or Surgebinder, or Elantrian. You draw that raw, amorphous power into your body, and you turn it into something direct and specific. A force of repulsion against metal. 'Awesomeness' that reduces friction. A light source, or a deadly fireball. But what's that blue thing? That's the hole that your Play-Doh is extruded through. And you can swap it out for a different one. This is the piece that determines what shape your Play-Doh takes. In allomancy, this would be your metal. Each metal produces a different effect, channeling your Preservation-power into a different magical ability. In AonDor, it's the Aons themselves. Which Aon you draw determines the magic. It's the same in Forgery, Dakhor, and ChayShan. All across Sel, it's the shape you make that determines your magical action. On Nalthis, it's about the command. Every awakened object does something different, because each is given a different command. Metals. Shapes/forms. Commands. This blue thing... is the focus. So really, I think this is the definition of focus: It's the element of a magic system that determines the magical effect, or the precise action of investiture. It's the category whose internal variation corresponds to the versatility of the magic system as a whole. (Here's the WoB that backs this up: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=allomancy+aon) Which brings us, inevitably, to the question of Roshar. A common theory (endorsed by the Coppermind) is that gemstones are Roshar's focus, because Surgebinders and fabrials both rely on gemstones. But my definition disagrees. Kaladin can draw stormlight from any gemstone (or from a non-gem source), and his powers always remain the same. Whether he uses emerald broams or diamond chips, flying is still flying. Lift, notably, doesn't need gems at all. To find the focus, look for what distinguishes one type of magic from another. What distinguishes an Adhesion-binder from a Transformation-binder? I think there's only one logical answer. It's the spren. Each surgebinder-type bonds with a different spren. Sure, some spren offer overlapping surges, but the basic fact remains: the magic you can do is determined by the spren you bond. The metal you burn. The Aon you draw. The command you give. And fabrials? Fabrials use specific gemstones because specific gemstones trap specific spren. The real exception to this is the Honorblades, which provide surgebinder-bonds, but are not spren. Or are they? They look and behave exactly like ordinary shardblades. Bonding, summoning, cutting. They're not self-aware, like spren are, but they're clearly the same type of entity: splinters. Objects made of investiture. Honor's investiture, which seems to be inherently bond-forming, whether it's sentient or not. So the focus isn't spren, exactly. It's bond-forming splinters -- a category which consists almost entirely of spren, but also includes the Honorblades. This opens up some interesting speculations of Voidbinding. Is it done by bonding different spren, i.e. Voidspren? Or is it like on Scadrial, where different magic systems use the same foci? Maybe Voidbinding is just surgebinding, but with a different power source. Maybe Kaladin could intake the 'voidlight' from the mysterious black sphere, and access a new power-set.

I can't remember if Focus is actually a canonical term or not, so just in case, by Focus I mean "the thing that determines the effect of the Investiture". Scadrial (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy) - Metal Sel (AonDor, Forgery, Bloodsealing, presumably ChayShan and Dakhor) - Symbols Nalthis (Awakening) - Commands Roshar's Focus is a much debated question. IMO, none of the answers quite fit. Spren is probably the best option, since all Rosharan magic we've seen so far involves them, but spren are Investiture so I'm not sure if they can really qualify as a Focus. Bonds is another common suggestion, but each Nahel bond (or bond to an Honorblade) grants two distinct Surges, so the bond by itself doesn't fully determine the effect of the Investiture, at least in Surgebinding (it may well do so in fabrial science and 'natural' spren bonds). In fabrial science and Soulcasting, the ten Polestones act very much like a Focus. And there's a WOB that suggests they are: The comparison with metals as a 'key' would seem conclusive. But the other nine types of Surgebinding aren't dependent on gem type. This would seem to kill any 'gems as Focus' theory. Except... Stormlight is the gaseous form of Investiture on Roshar. The mist is the gaseous form of Preservation's Investiture on Scadrial. When Vin was burning the mists, and when Vin-as-Preservation was feeding pure Investiture to Elend, they performed Allomancy without any actual metals. I think all Surgebinding except Soulcasting (which is probably distinct since it's so complex, and thus needs the extra "guidance") is the equivalent of "mist burning" - using raw Investiture directly and thus bypassing the need for a Focus.

Following are my thoughts on this matter: (started form Argent's post about Spren History.) I realize little of this might not be new for some of you, I am sorry if nothing here is novel for the group. A quick search for Nahel brings up the Arabic name which loosely translates as "[One/He/She] who quenches its thirst". As the spelling is exactly the same I am inclined to believe this is a clue as to why the bonds are formed. ALL spren thirst for physical experience. It was discovered that by connecting themselves with physical beings they are able to get those experiences. I disagree with the common thought that the bond brings them closer to the physical realm. I believe that spren can jump into the physical as wind spren don't seem to have a bond but they are in the the physical realm to some extent and able to minimally interact with physical things. The bond allows them to experience it in a very different way then just observing and minimal interactions. BTW I am on board with Argent's postulate that ALL bonds grant surgebinding especially in context that a Selish person with a bonded Aon (that was able make the jump to Roshar) would have access to some form of Surges. The higher spen is the higher a creature needs to be to fill this need. The Radiant Spren NEED more then a skyeel, cremling, or greatshell to quench their thirst. They need something intelligent and self aware. I suspect they couldn't bond with the listeners until the Shards came and the ambient magic system (think of the birds on First of the Sun) moved into a actively wielded magic system. Then the Radiant Spren started bonding with the native race, but then moved on to humans when they were shown they could get better experiences from more physical beings possibly from seeing how much more powerful the Heralds were. They may have surmised that Humans could wield the surges more powerfully and deduced that meant they would get better/stronger experiences. Following this I believe that a human will always outstrip a Listener in power because as the Spren gets more it can give more. The only reason Void spren are not bonding forcibly with Humans to get the better/stronger experiences is the fact that the further from the cognitive realm a being is the more free it will be to reject the bond. but this gets off topic slightly. TLDR: Spren thirst for physical experience, they can get minimal experience just by interacting with the world, but get more by bonding with a physical being. The word Nahel is used to hint at this relationship as the bonds quenches this thirst. It is easier to bond with unintelligent / unaware creatures, but less is gained for the spren and less is granted in return.

Hello 17th shard, I have been reading Sanderson's books for several years and come up with several theories often in a fan fiction dynamic. Unfortunately the questions I sent on the Brandon Sanderson website were not answered in 4 to 6 weeks (or at all!) So after trying other authors, I'm back and more "Invested" now lol. Small question: Is Kriss, 17th Shard etc.. Immortal because they have all visited Nalthis and have lots of Breathe? Big Question: Are Shards technically Cognitive shadows? More to come

So I was thinking about the fact that Renarin, we know, is a Truthwatcher and so has the two surges of Illumination and Progression. From the interludes, we know that Lift can use the food she eats to surgebind and heal herself but if she uses it too much it makes her tired and weak. My theory is that Renarin is doing this unknowingly and using up his energy which may be why he apeares 'weak' or 'sickly'. What do you guys think??

So I don't know if this just me or what but has anybody noticed that Syl is like the windspren but actually an honorspren, and Kaladin is doing the same surgebinding that a WINDrunner would do. I just thought it was interesting how the names connected. Have we learned what type all the other Nahel bonding spren are yet? Because we know Pattern is a Cryptic, we know Ivory is an Inkspren, and Wyndle is a Cultivationspren, but what about the others? Also, is Dalinar a unique case in bonding to the Stormfather? I know there have always been few bondsmiths but there is only one stormfather. Sidenote: How many windspren are actually honorspren? In the beginning of The Way of Kings, Kaladin says that windspren often stick people's shoe to the ground to trip them or make it so they can't pull something apart. This makes me think surgebinding like adhesion but I thought only a few windspren were actually honorspren and therefore should not be able to do surge-like things.

So I was thinking about the fact that Renarin, we know, is a Truthwatcher and so has the two surges of Illumination and Progression. From the interludes, we know that Lift can use the food she eats to surgebind and heal herself but if she uses it too much it makes her tired and weak. My theory is that Renarin is doing this unknowingly and using up his energy which may be why he apeares 'weak' or 'sickly'. What do you guys think??

I have been wondering, if say, Kaladin touches the ground and infuses it ten times to lash it forward, would it cause an earthquake?