Search the Community

Words of Radiance is out now, so it's time for the obligatory general reactions topic. You already know my initial reactions, but what did you guys think? Obviously, this thread will have spoilers. If you don't have the book, stop right now. Seriously. Go. I mean it. And if you have the book and you haven't finished, what are you still doing on this site, go read it, dummy. Here are a great many empty lines so wandering eyes don't go here. If it's a major spoiler, probably put some spoiler tags on it. I'll post my spoilery reactions in a bit, but first, I want to know what you all think.

So recently I finished my re reading of SA, and somewhere into WoK I got into a discussion with some friends about shardplate, and it got me thinking. At this point probably stop reading if you haven't finished Words of Radiance. I'd like to see what people think about shardplate, since it seems it doesn't get as much attention as the other various shards. I had been thinking about the workings of plate, it started with realizing that if shardplate was really made out of metal, it should dent, except it doesn't, it shatters. When I brought this up to my freinds they seemed to think treating plate like a fabrial was silly since doing that in the past turned out to be false (i.e shardblades being spren). They believed that construction of plate was in some way related to the Nahel Bond, as shardblades are. Despite this, I'm pretty sure they are just fabrials. We know the gemstone in a shardblade isn't actually related to its function, but shardplate requires them AND a steady supply of stormlight. If the gemstones aren't infused then the armor is anything but light. And, probably most importantly, everything shardplate does can be related to the surges. Shardplate is metal, yet it shatters instead of deforming, I imagine that is is related to the surge of either tenstion or cohesion, but I can't say for certain since we don't yet know much about those surges. Progression or transformation would allow the plate to regrow from a single piece. The misting of the visor due to illumination. Obviously there's some pretty advanced fabrial science that is beyond our current understanding but as we've seen, the ancients had some pretty wicked knowledge in that department. This brings me to my second topic. History. Recent and not so recent. The vision where dalinar meets Nohadon seems to imply that Bond granted surgebinding was present long before the founding of the Knights Radiant. This is important because I believe shardplate was the hallmark of the Knights and came into existence around the same time. In fact I think this time was one of the few where it's construction was possible given the level of technology at the time. That they managed to construct something as sophisticated as the oathgates makes me think they could manage shardplate. As for recent history, both Kaladin and Renarin seemed to have no problem touching shardplate, which doesn't help the assertion that shardplate is of the spren. Something both my friends were eager to prove. tl;dr: Shardplate is just a very advanced fabrial that was made at the same period as the founding of the KR and the construction of Urithiru.

These are a bit random; I've been re-reading the trilogy and a few questions popped out at me. I keep seeing people say that Marsh needs Atium to keep living, and I assume this was from WoB, as I don't recall seeing anything regarding this in AoL. Could someone point me towards the right one, or perhaps elaborate? How was Ruin able to affect memories stored in copper? We know that he was unable to read thoughts and and unable to see things set in metal, so I would have thought that thoughts set in metal would have been double unavailable to him.

Okay, while I may be a very powerful and demanding deity, I am, unfortunately, not omniscient. So that being said, how the hedge do I put things into spoiler brackets? It's driving me crazy, and I've already spoiled events in SA for half of the Right People. Please help? Also, the first person to give me the desired information will be guaranteed success on their next heist. I'm okay with giving bribes.

I can't believe I just sped read through all of Firefight! At least I have a first hand feel for the compulsion Epics feel. First of all, this could be a Cosmere book. I know it's not, because Brandon doesn't want it to be, but Calamity feels very much like the Shard of Fear. Ironically, is what Calamity fears Fear itself? By gifting all these powers to fearful people, is he trying to empower them against their worst fears? Second, I'm confused on the conquering fears aspect. Epics are fearful, it's in their core nature, like a soul being broken in a very specific way. David conquered his fear, and he lost (or rejected outright) his gifted power from Calamity. Megan conquered her fear and seemed to grow stronger in her powers because of it. Does that mean David still has access to his gift, but conquering his fear allows him to consciously choose not to use it or be ruled by it? And/or does it mean Megan can reject her gift as well through conquering her fear? Also, something's totally strange with David. And not in a powers from Calamity vibe. His ability to instill confidence and warp others to his needs by sheer willpower is very ta'averen. In a Mat sort of way. Everyone else in the book remarking on this cannot be an accident.

Way back when I first read mistborn, I remember thinking that the idea of hazekillers was pretty cool. I always thought it would be cool for Brandon to make a major character who was a super badass hazekiller. Sort of the Reckoner of Scadrial...but alas...this has yet to happen. In fact, most hazekiller have been butchered almost as easily as normal soldiers. Anyway...while rereading AoL, I got to the part at Ranette's with the Hazekiller rounds and I thought...what would it take for an ordinary person to be an exceptional Hazekiller? I know there has already been at least one other thread about hazekiller rounds. I'd like to make the idea a little broader. If you were going to be a hazekiller (anti allomancy and antiferuchemy) in AoL era Scadrial...how would you gear up? What tactics would you use? How would you prepare yourself? A few of my ideas: Hazekiller rounds: -Anti bloodmaker / Anti Lurcher - Large bore hollow point containing a glass capsule filled with aqua regis (solution of nitric and hydrochloric acid used to dissolve metal for industrial purposes). Aside from punching a healthy dose of super corrosive acid into a bloodmaker's body (really painful and lots of healing required) you might get lucky and hit a goldmind taking a big bite out of their stored health. Against a Lurcher, they would pull it into their chest plate and immediately get a face full of toxic fumes as it dissolves the chestplate. - Anti Pewterarm / Anti Bloodmaker - Hollowpoint filled with rattlesnake venom...(really any powerful neurotoxin would work but rattlesnake venom would be more wild westy) - Anti Pewterarm - You can soak ordinary lead bullets in rat poison to make bleeder rounds. Most rat poisons are basically just concentrated anticoagulants that make the rate bleed out from the inside. You soak a porous metal like lead in it...the anti coagulant soaks in, causing the wound the bullet inflicts to bleed a LOT more (especially if the bullet is still inside). This would be a great way to take some of the punch out of a thug (pun intended). - Anti Lurcher - Hollowpoint filled with finely powered lye. They pull it into their chest and all of a sudden they're blind and their face is melting. It can also be very dangerous if inhaled. -Anti Coinshot - Take a hollowpoint that is entirely ceramic...put afore mentioned glass acid capsule in it so the tip of the bullet is exposed glass...with a tiny steel pin protruding from the end. Fire at coinshot, coinshot pushes on steel pin, steel pin pushes backward through glass capsule, acid sprays forward. Would only work if you were close...but better than nothing. On fighting people with super speed (steel runners and sliders): I'm saying that your best bet here is area effect weapons. As a generic...shotguns firing buckshot would be more useful that other types of ammunition due to the spray of lead instead of a single well directed shot. You'd be more likely to clip a steel runner on the move...and with enough dispersion, a slider might not be able to step out of the way of 9 shots at once as easily as they can 1 or 2. But...there is a very good chance that you would still fail. When I say area effect weapons...I'm talking about teargas, flashbangs, and firebombs. As long as you had a mask of some king that made you immune to the effects, having a bunch of poison gas grenades would work really well against most allomancers. A steel runner or slider is also going to have a much harder time fighting if they are deaf and blind. For firebombs, even if you can't hit the person...both types of people will have a harder time moving around if there are a bunch of pools of flaming, sticky liquid all over the place...but this wouldn't be applicable in all situations. I also though that spreading a bunch of sharp steel caltrops all over the place could make it equally difficult for a steel runner to move around. Side notes: While having an aluminum gun would be great...having a crossbow with no metal parts would come in a lot of handy and be much cheaper. While the pooch might not always make it through the fight...having a well trained attack dog or two would really even the odds in your favor...if nothing else it would distract them long enough for you to make your move. Plus...the dog's superior hearing and sense of smell would act like a pseudo-tineye...giving you another advantage. I've got many more ideas...but I wanna hear what you guys think. Let's pool our knowledge and ideas to make the Hazekiller Corp!

Cosmere Gossip, scandals, and the Latest from the Shardworlds. Your place for every piece of juicy gossip and breaking news! From Hoid to the latest in the real breaking news from around the Cosmere. Topics in this issue include: Where's Marsh? Breaking the Silence: Knight Radiant admits his true love is Spren, not wife And how to attract Kelsier's Shadow to you! "He Spiked Me!" - Tales of Famous People Reportedly Losing Their Powers Queen Sarene, Baby Bump 10 Best Spots to Vocation in the Cosmere Breaking News: Famous Scientist Explores Hemalurgy Aluminium Cloaks; Protect yourself from Unwanted Investiture - Real or Fake? Exclusive Interview: Star Playing Kalad Swears he Saw Vasher at the Coffee Shop AD: "Worldhopping 101: Learn Everything you want to know about Worldhopping from the best teachers in the Cosmere! Limited Time Offer, and strictly not limited to those with Innate Investiture!" Other ideas for articles? List them here! The more, the juicer! (And thank you Blaze1616 for helping me come up with this not so fabulous idea!)

So...this may end up being one of those really short threads...but does anyone have any idea what the deal is with the dark sphere that seems to glow black...you know...the one that Gavilar gives to Szeth while he is dying? The obvious answer would be that it is somehow ties to the black spheres from Shadesmar...but...for some reason that doesn't seem quite right. Does anyone have any insight that they would care to share with me?

In Mitosis, David says that Mitosis gets stupider with each new clone. He's proven wrong about this. But later on in Firefight, David also says that Obliteration has a cooldown between teleports, when he doesn't. It's revealed that Regailia removed that from him. So what if she also removed Mitosis's Stupidity?

So...I was thinking...does the name of the Returned effect the Intent of the Divine Breath, or is it, perhaps, the other way around? What comes first: the chicken or the egg? the Return's name or the Intent? The above are really just rhetoric questions. Splinters can have their own Intent independent of the Shard, but in the case of a Return, this Intent is governed by a human rather than being the result of chosen Intent (Nightblood) or a more "random" Intent like spren (or Intent based on truths/ideals...some of these being harder to grasp than others and thus resulting in bigger splinters, like Honor, cryptics, godspren, or Destroy Evil). But, one of the things I've wondered about for awhile is, when a Returned is given a name, is it due to who they already are/were, or who they will become (based on the needs of the people or the possible future Endowment showed them)? How much do the names actually matter? If the names are influence the Intent, is it because the Returned decided to follow what their name met (aka Warbreaker and Blushweaver) or because they were given it by others? When we consider Blushweaver or Vasher, two Returned who have changed their names or, in Vasher's case, had different names given to him at different times, one might conclude that whatever influence their names have is somewhat flexible. Blushweaver seems to be a goddess of beauty (and sexuality), but she is at times honest as well, reflecting in the long run, her original name as nature. While Vasher has been known as Strifelover, Kalad the Usurper and finally, Peacegiver; in the long run (or by the time of novels and by the end of the Manywar) he fits the ideal hinted at in his given name... It seems little uncanny (and is mentioned by Vasher at the end of Warbreaker) but perhaps reflects the nature of larger Splinters. The ideals/truths that they represent are bigger, and thus, can't be pinned down as easily. On Roshar, a conscious spren forms due to the large amount of Investiture with its large Intent trying to "fit in" and intepret that truth/ideal; like Nightblood, but not forced. When a person Returns, however, the name is an unspecific descriptor that foreshadows the base Intent/reason that person Returned. A Returned's name operates in a similar fashion to the name of a spren or, probably more correctly, Nightblood's command...at least in the long run. However, it shows that a "person" bonded to a Splinter (of this size) has more flexibility, but perhaps not as much as a regular person. My final questions for you guys: 1. Do you think that the Splinter and the name that the Cult of the Returned give the them have some restraining effects on the individual's will due to the level of Investiture (because that Investiture is trying to act according to its "named" Intent)? 2. Does this result in a type of "civil war" between the named Intent and the human conscious bonded to the Splinter? 3. Are names of Returned a Command given by Endowment (in a matter of speaking) that the Returned try to 'live up to'? (etc. I'm going to sleep now)...

I tried looking around and couldn't find anything on this, how did Shallan become a radiant, or at least start bonding pattern? I was under the impression that one could not fully bond a spren unless they were "broken".They could start to attract one but couldn't finish the bond. In the book she seems to have became a radiant after she killed her mother. But how could she summon pattern before breaking. And Shallan's mother couldn't have broke her because her becoming a radiant was the whole reason she attacked shallan in the first place. The reason this bothers me is that shallan references that as what broke her. Is this what her next truth will be about or am i missing something?

(This thread is mainly for the discussion of the hint and trying to use it to figure out the Elantris worldhopping puzzle...) I was going to revive the Sel worldhopping topic http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2515-sel-and-worldhopping/ , but since it was last posted in way back in January of 2013, I thought that perhaps it might not be wise... Sometimes necromatic powers don't work that well, I guess (or I need to learn the one-Breath command for Lifeless again)! --- So, a few days ago, Brandon revealed that apparently Raoden had misinterpreted one of the Aons. (source) On page two of this topic, Argent mentions that he thinks that it's related to the Aon Tia, and that Aon Tia doesn't need distance, only a destination. This is based on an old theory of his (one I've read, but, at the moment, can't remember where the link is), and might explain why this is such an important hint and will help us to better understand worldhopping...(and yes, worldhopping might be my major. I have three topics somewhat related to it!) I think that the Aon misinterpreted is either Aon Rao (kind of was the idea behind my one ill-thought out theory a few weeks back) or Aon Tia. Perhaps, even a combination of the two. I agree with Argent that it is probably Aon Tia, though, here are my reasons: 1. Aon Tia is one of the few Aons that Raoden really takes time to interpret/explain to the readers. This is first done in Chapter 25 (343-346) and later on when he travels to rescue Sarene. Both times, he added modifiers that specify location and the person himself. What Raoden says specific is this: The book he was getting this information (on the AonDor) only really gave him hints on what to do and how Aons (like Tia) worked. Now, if it is Tia, it might be just destination that is needed (as Argent suggests), but it might also be modification based. If it's modification based...we have to consider what modifiers Raoden thinks he needs. He thinks he needs one that specified that it only should work on him (which seems right) and distance specification. But, Aon Tia means travel, what would happen if one just drew Aon Tia without a specific destination (where would you go, it seems unlikely to be nowhere), or, if one added different modifiers that programmed Tia to bring one into the Cognitive Realm/Across the Cosmere a certain distance. Really, if one wanted to have fun with Tia, you could even use the distance modifiers to travel LIGHT YEARS, if you could just figure out the correct distance and some other things of the sort! If it is Aon Tia, the modifiers could be another Aon...such as Aon Rao or the Aon related to cognitive things, Aon Mea. However, what ever the specific modifiers would have to be for this to work is still unknown at best, if this is even the one Brandon was talking about... 2. It could also be Aon Rao. However, despite it's prevalence in the book (since Elantris and the surrounding landscape is AonDor), I feel that it's still unlikely. If you can think about it, Raoden doesn't understand it well or how it works though, so there is that, I guess... 3. It could also be the two Aons that are on the device they used to enter the area where the Pool is. However, it's Galladon who sees these Aons (Aon Rao, perhaps, and Aon Tae [352]). The later, Aon Tae, is the one they push to open the "secret" passage. Anyway, while this could be it and Raoden could've misinterpreted what Aon Tae really meant in this instance and what effect it could have on the pool (or even as a modifier of Aon Rao), I don't think this is the secret, and the only reason I even brought it up was because it was related to the Pool... Anyway, those are just some suggestions about what this WoB could mean... Since this was only a clue (and really, one that isn't that obvious...I think), but now, we can prove how good we are at figuring stuff out! I trust that now we can figure this out...perhaps in less than a month!

I'm sorry for the title, I really am, but it had to be done! After I read this today, I said, hey, lookit the PUN I can make! What better way to talk about questions that sprung up from a cognitive heavy reading than to make reference to something to do with conjunctions... (I'm linking the reading here in case anyone's missed it: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/08/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance ) --- While I realize that this is not yet quite cannon, I think we can still garner some things from it. According to the above reading, a junction was created when Jasnah did not fully enter the cognitive realm, letting her effectively soulcast but without leaving her stuck. While here she is stuck because her spren (and perhaps him letting her use a ton of Stormlight?) dragged/thrusted her into the Cognitive Realm completely... So, I wanted to ask a few questions (or list my thoughts) related to this, though they're not all related to the Stormlight Archive. 1. Spren are Cognitive Entities [CE] (for this it doesn't really matter what type of CE they are, only that they are a CE). So, would it be possible for other cognitive entities with similar bonds to allow/drag/thrust their bondmates to enter into the Cognitive realm? If this is so, then perhaps spren like beings such as Nightblood, Seons, Skaz, etc (freaky birds go here) could offer a similar function and...help create a junction or help bring someone to the realm. It's a different method than "pool hopping", though, I think that something like Honor's permanent junction might still be necessary to get back in (which is probably his pool)...(though, if the Storms show up in some way in the Realm...but are highly dangerous to use due to their massive level of Investiture) (If the above is true about Nightblood, it could possibly explain how Vasher hopped. Also, a large amount of Breath (like enough to reach the Fifth Heightening, I believe) might too, since that is the same amount of Investiture as in one Divine Breath...this is neither here nor there, though.) 2. In a realm without giant sized splinters (Scandrial), do you think that perhaps Cognitive Shadows (oh yes, I did) which are also CE (just non-transformative entities) could somehow help in the process? Or, if not, perhaps the process there is created by a junction created by the Mists? 3. Should, perhaps, we consider it "junction" hopping (instead of pool) hopping? And do you think that perhaps there's an interesting way to "junction" hop in Elantris? (Like make a junction, go through it, then it closes behind you. Unfortunately, you're now stuck in a really dangerous place filled with cognitive entity monsters and cognitive disasters galore! Errr...never mind, maybe you should just ignore this point!) 4. Profit! 5. Who hopes that junction is not the right term? (Or who thinks I made a really bad pun in my title? I feel clever, though!) Anyway, I just wanted to talk about it. This is a discussion topic, and while things are not concrete, I think that the reading still gives us some really cool hints about how the realms work!

One of the epigraphs in Words of Radiance gave me pause when I read it. What are these squires that are mentioned? Traditionally, squires were the assistents of knights, helping them put on their armor and the like. Radiants of course, who seem to have once had a mechanism for making their armor appear and disappear, seem unlikely to need this service. But squires also were knights-in-training, awaiting an opportunity to become knights themselves. A potential hypothesis that can be drawn here is that once Radiants were accompanied by men and women who were attempting or in the process of becoming members of the Knights Radiant. I believe that there is a small glimpse of this in one of Dalinar's visions. Initially, I thought that perhaps this woman's abilities as a Surgebinder allowed her to grant her followers the ability to use a bit of Stormlight. Now, I am not so certain. She almost certainly a Releaser or Dustbringer, her Surges are Division and Abrasion. Neither of these would seem to account for such a power. These men would seem to be her squires, or at least people who could be her squires. I also believe that this is what was offered to Dalinar by Harkaylain. He couldn't promise that Dalinar would become a Radiant, but he could give him a shot by making him a squire. Now, with Lopen's abilities, and mentions of other members of Bridge Four glowing, I believe that the men of Bridge Four are now Kaladin's squires.

In case you have yet to see, Tor has released an excerpt of Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, due for release on December 3rd of this year. And boy is it fantastic. Just from the little bit there, you can see Brandon's fabricated another phenomenal world, unimportant though it may be. There is also a review, which goes more into the mechanics of shades. This is going to be a spoiler topic for both of those, so if you don't want to know until the book comes out, don't look here! My favorite bits: Silver gets its day in the sun Another mention of the God Beyond, this is the third different world to say a variation of that name (Shai's Unknown God is confirmed to be the same) The Evil - Potential opposing force to Adonalsium? Does the White Fox have a Splinter? Enjoy everybody, and happy discussion.

We know the following: 1. Plate and Blade currently use gems for energy 2. Blades didn't always use gems, the were in fact add to the blade after the fall to allow the summoning and dismithing of the blade by there owners. 3. In the WoK prolouge Sizth refuses to use plate because the gems that power interfear with his lashings. 4. In chapter 19 of WoK, Starfall, we see knights using lashing with apparent ease. 5. In chapter 57 of WoR, To Kill the Wind, page 686 on my Nook, Kaladin realize that a shardplate helm was able to feed on his stromlight to work. 6. Finally we know form Dalinar's Visions that there was once a lot more shards foalting around then are in use on modern Roshar. From all this I theorize that gems have nothing to do with the making of shardplate.

This is a theory that I believe is almost certainly true: Nightblood is an Honorblade (or the same class of weapon. Not one of the Heralds' weapons). It's essentially an Honorblade, only with different powers and restrictions. But it follows the same scheme. At the San Francisco signing, I asked Brandon if Nightblood would function as a Shardblade on Roshar. He said that Nightblood wouldn't just function like one, but that it was one. And, coupled with Nightblood's nasty habit of consuming Investiture when in use, and how it needs a variable precondition before use (in this case, it judges purity of heart), and how it is "Orders of Magnitude more powerful than a Shardblade", Nightblood is an Honorblade. Honorblades consume Investiture, which is why Kaladin is more efficient than Szeth. Syl says, Also, Honorblades (I think) must be given for use. I remember a quote for that, but I can't find it. Sorry. Finally, Honorblades have numerous quotes stating how they are more powerful than Shardblades. So, there you have it! Nightblood is in the same class of weapon as the Honorblades! Poke holes in this theory, if you dare!

Hey all, with Words of Radiance fast approaching, I just wanted to take a moment to remind everyone about the spoiler policy. All Words of Radiance spoilers belong in the Words of Radiance spoiler board. There, you will be able to freely talk about the publicly released sample chapters, and when the book comes out, obviously the book itself. if you must post a Words of Radiance spoiler elsewhere (such as in the Stormlight board or General Brandon Discussion), they must, without exception be marked as such. That said, feel free to request a moderator to move the topic to the Words of Radiance board. To mark spoilers, use this: Words of Radiance spoilers: [spoiler] (put spoilers here) [/spoiler]If you somehow manage to acquire a copy of Words of Radiance before Tuesday, do not post any information on the book until Tuesday, even in Cosmere Theories or the Words of Radiance board.Posts violating these policies will be removed/edited immediately. One last thing! When the book comes out, please refrain from putting out big book spoilers in the topic titles. The overall spoiler period for Words of Radiance will be around six months. After that point, the Words of Radiance board will be merged with the Stormlight Archive forum, as it can be reasonably expected that people who want to discuss Stormlight Archive in great detail would have read it by then. This seems like a much better solution than having different boards for each Stormlight book, which in my opinion would be overkill.

Hi, I made a kind of reference document (mostly stuff from the wiki) on Heralds and Surges and chapters (in progress) + some wild guesses, I thought maybe it could be useful to someone: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R7NoW7vMfWMSezANJ1Me7p4rK72kutmnc5kuMKugqQU/edit?usp=sharing

So I've been intrigued to see how the gender politics would develop throughout book 2, and I actually noticed something that intrigued me. Towards the end of the book Kaladin mentions that the whole "lighteyes" racism thing is probably connected to the fact that the Radiants had lighter coloured eyes themselves. In considering this, I actually remembered a line earlier on (i wish I had a page number) where Syl mentions to Kaladin, "Honor created man." Going on this line of inquiry, I considered what if Honor created man, Cultivation created women and Odium created Parshendi out of spite as his own little vessels of everstorm evil. I got a bit stuck because I remembered that Preservation and Ruin couldn't create, but then I vaguely remember someone somewhere mentioned that was something very specific to their intent. Preservation and Ruin alone can't do actual creation, so it wouldn't be out of the realms of possibility that each of the shards created their own genders, and by extension, made that binary a strong part of their culture.

At this point, I'd like to put some increased evidence forward for the idea that the Parshendi are the true inhabitents of Roshar, who initally went to war against humanity for reasons that were somewhat understandable. Perhaps they were even created by Adonalsium when it was on Roshar, but that is irreleveant. Firstly, I'd like to point out that the Parshendi are unable to bond with the Nahel spren. I interpret this to mean that the Parshendi were unable to bond with the Nahel spren because they were closer to the Cognitive Realm than other peoples. This allowed them their forms, but they were not well-rooted enough in the Physical realm to form Nahel bonds with the most intelligent spren. However, then for whatever reason, human refugees arrived, I believe fleeing an attack by Odium onto their home planet of Braize, in the company of Honor and Cultivation. And they could bond with the Nahel spren just fine. However, they also were doing what humans do and conquering the Parshendi land with the help of these powers, and powerful spren such as the Stormfather, who they called traitor. They beat the Parshendi and drove them back into Braize, which was now a hellish nightmare, thanks to Odium. They called this place Damnation. I believe some memory of this conquest can be seen in this Death Rattle. The Parshendi, who had been around for much longer, felt betrayed by the spren, who gave humans some fantasitc abilities. How could the Parshendi hope to match them? This is echoed here, with disturbing implications. At this point, I believe Odium saw what had happened happening, and realized that he had had a stroke of good fortune. His army was here. They were angry, they wanted their homes back. So, he and the Unmade made an accord with them. They would give them new forms, forms of power, in exchange for destroying humanity. The Parshendi agreed, without realizing the trick. Once they took on these forms and bonded with Odium's voidspren, they were his Voidbringers, scourge of Roshar. This is shown here. The Parshendi songs even claim that the gods gave them powers similar to the human Surges. Another quote again mentions that it was crafted by the Unmade. This also explains something else. The Last Legion may not have been able to remember a time when they were free to chose their own form, but it used to be so, before humanity arrived. So although time has dulled the specifics, the ideas of the forms themselves remain. There is one quote that seems important that I cannot make sense of, though. Ideas on what this means are welcome. All in all, I think this is a pretty solid interpretation of early Rosharan history and the conflict between the humans and the Voidbringers. Obviously some of the details may be wrong, but I think the outlines are on the right track.

Is it just me or do Lighteyes have no idea what a real apology actually involves? I was thinking of Dalinar and Shallan when I came up with this but Elhokar and Amaram both provided an interesting counterpoint to them as I thought more on it. So I guess you can call this a thread about the philosophy of apologies instead of just Lighteyes as the title suggests but it does contain WOR spoilers so here it should live. (PS there are a few Wheel of Time spoilers at the end too.) It started when I connected Shallan and Dalinar’s apologies to Kaladin together. First off Shallan claims to have apologised to Kaladin, when by my reading she didn’t really, then later Dalinar states “I believe an apology is due” but does not really deliver one himself. At first I thought he was referring to the apology that he himself owed to Kaladin but he apparently just meant that Amaram should deliver a simple ‘Sorry I murdered your men, mutilated your face and made you a slave’ (which admittedly he then did.) Shallan’s apology was pretty lacking by my standards. Kaladin (rightfully) called her out on the way she stole his boots then sighed and told her he was not holding a grudge over it and that she was not as bad as others. - “Not as bad as the others? What a delightful compliment. Well, let’s say you’re right. Perhaps I am an insensitive rich woman. That doesn’t change the fact that you can be downright mean and offensive, Kaladin Stormblessed” It was her next line that confused me - “I apologize, and all I get in return is a shrug?” I had to reread it looking for the apology, maybe it’s just me but as apologies go that was… not one. (his was closer) Dalinar was better in that his actions spoke of apology but he really should have said the words (Words are important on Roshar). He needed to acknowledge out loud that he more or less dismissed what he did not want to hear and that he was wrong to do so. Doing things correctly eventually is not an apology, admitting fault to yourself and those wronged is. Initially I was simply amused that he said an apology was due then failed to actually deliver one. Combined with Shallan’s failure I thought of this thread but we can look a bit further into it by using Amaram and Elhokar. Amaram. Now he did apologise, in the strictest sense of the word, the only problem was the sincerity of it. He was caught out in one direct lie and had to admit the truth, he apologised with all formality and admitted that he was sorry for what he did. The only problem being that his sorrow was in no way proportional to his sin, he may actually regret that innocent men were killed but he admits that this was not as important to him as gaining Shards ‘for the greater good’ and that he would do it again in a heartbeat. It is the forced apology that a child gives when caught out and made to apologise, an insincere formality. In his later viewpoint he makes it clear that his only real regret was not killing Kaladin too. (I think that once Amaram had confessed what he had done before witnesses Dalinar should have demanded he immediately surrender his Plate and Blade. What else could Amaram have done? It would have gone a long way towards Dalinar's apology) Elhokar is the only one who makes a real job of it, though he does not say the words ‘I’m sorry’ he does say what matters. He admits that he was wrong and he admits why he did it, he does this both to himself and to the person that he wronged. He humbles himself, he explains his hopes and his (many) faults and even asks for help in doing what is right. Of course he is drunk, in vino veritas as they say. A bewildered Kaladin shoots him down but he is still determined to figure how to do things better. You could also argue that there is strength in not saying ‘I’m sorry’ because when you formalise an apology too much you run the risk of doing it simply to clear your own conscience by getting forgiveness. The Wheel of Time is also good for looking at apologies specifically Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene’s apologies to Mat. Let’s be honest, they each owed him big time for both rescuing them and for their treatment of him afterwards. Elayne and Nynaeve both get called out on their behaviour by Birgitte and Aviendha and made to apologise but as with Amaram above these apologies are completely insincere and only done with extreme reluctance. Elayne only regrets that she has somehow disappointed Aviendha and Nynaeve is… Nynaeve. Neither truly regrets their actions and their apologies are simply expected formality. It is only later that they work out Mat’s value as a person (and a friend) and they both make it up to him, Elayne in the way she treats him when they meet up again in Andor and Nynaeve in defending him when Tuon insults him (specifically mentioning the rescue). Both girls made a reluctant apology then backed it up later with actions, justifying their growth. Egwene on the other hand never apologises for any of her actions, she doesn’t learn to be a better person she learns to be an Aes Sedai. Perhaps if she had made friends willing to call her out more often (she sadly lost Aviendha to Elayne in that regard) she would not have been the only main character to… well, you know.., karma for not growing. (um, that is that she wouldn’t have… not that others would too). Thoughts?

This theory is a simple one. Unlike the other orders of Knights Radiant, the Skybreakers never abandoned their oaths and disbanded. They have remained active, albeit covertly, under the control of Nalan. Firstly, I want to present evidence that one of the orders of Radiants never disbanded, at least entirely. This epigraph makes it quite apparent to me that one of the orders of Radiants stuck around for quite some time. Nalan offers Szeth a place in their ranks, and Helaran was apparently attempting to join them. It seems evident to me that for whatever reason, the Skybreakers refused to abandon their Blades and their oaths to stick around. As one final piece of evidence, I'd like to look at the spren. First, I'll establish the type of spren the Skybreakers were bonded to. Given Nalan's penchant for laws and one of the divine attributes of the Skybreakers being "just" this makes me fairly certain that the highspren belong to the Skybreakers. Now, lets look at who Jasnah goes to see for information while she is in Shadesmar. Why would she go to see the highspren? While I'm sure that they are knowledgeable, would not the spren of other orders be better? Why not see the spren of the Willshapers or the Elsecallers, her own spren? They are associated with knowledge and wisdom, surely they would be better equipped? But here, Pattern provides a clue. The answer is clear. She went to the highspren because they are the only spren who survived the Recreance because the Skybreakers did not abandon their oaths. They are the only ones who were alive during the Desolations.

Okay so hello! This is my third post on 17th Shard because I mostly got it to contribute to two other threads I'd seen, but I thought I'd introduce myself. So I have read (in order of recency of most recent re-read) Words of Radiance, The Way of Kings, Warbreaker, Elantris, The Alloy of Law, and the Mistborn Trilogy. I love Sanderson's work, and in particular, the Stormlight Archive, because it is exactly what I love to read - fantastical creatures and people in different universes with crazy (weird, not crazy spaceship good) technology that relies not on what we think technology should rely, but on weird mystical things. I love the idea of Cosmere because it means I can read all the ones I like and they're all linked but in order to understand them, I don't have to read the ones that I don't like so much. My favourite character is currently Dalinar, (hence (tiny wor spoiler in the next sentence I don't know how to put it in it's box thingy ) my username) because he is genuinely just such a great guy and he is like a tyrant, yeah sure, but he does good things, and Roshar will, eventually, be better for it.