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Ok so this has been eating at me since my first time through the series. Now finishing up my 4th time through, and I feel like this needs to be addressed sometime soon in the story. Shallan has been lying to Jasnah, constantly, about a great many things even after Jasnah was clear with her that she would accept no more lies from her. Honestly if I'm Jasnah, and I find out Shallan was working with the Ghostbloods, I would want her out of the Tower, and I don't see any reasonable way around that. Shallan has proven she will lie and manipulate whoever she wants to do things "her" way because she things she's the only one who can address any of these problems. Her arrogance is just shocking to me. I absolutely do not see how Shallan is following the First Ideal, not even close. She sacrifices children and other beggers in her "brilliant" plan to infiltrate the Cult of Moments. Does she feel bad about it? Yeah, for about 5 minutes. Does she change her ways based on this realization? Of course not, she then goes on a trip to Lasting Integrity where she lies to every single person continuously, literally every living being she encounters she lies and manipulates for her scheme to help the Ghostbloods, which she has done plenty of already regardless of what lies she tells herself the organization isn't "rewarding" her for doing things they find useless. She's advancing the interests of people who tried to murder her and the person who has given her access to do Everything she has accomplished or gained. Jasnah is extremely intelligent and good and figuring out plots. It seems unlikely in my view that Shallan could continue to hide that she was working with the Ghostbloods from Jasnah, especially since Wit definitely knows she is, and Wit is in a relationship with Jasnah. When she does find out Shallan has been lying and manipulating her and everyone else to continue following the Ghostbloods orders (regardless of the ending of RoW) Jasnah should be furious, and should never trust her again.. She has proven she is not trustworthy, period. No rational person would look at the lies and manipulations Shallan has performed and say "well maybe they're an honest person now". I'll even grant that at the end of RoW maybe Shallan made some huge breakthrough. Maybe she will go straight to Jasnah and apologize and beg forgiveness. If I was Jasnah I would thank her for the apology then banish her immediately from Alethkar and the Tower and tell her she's unwelcome in her lands or those of Dalinar. If I was Navani and I found out Shallan was working with the people who tried (and very nearly did) murder my daughter, I would want her executed.

Why does Shallan name Formless as male? Is it just another coping technique to distance herself from who she was?

Realizing that if Book 5 ends 10 days after the end of RoW (day of the contest), what part do Shallan and Adolin play? They'll still be traveling in the Cognitive Realm for at least 10 days, and they have no idea what's happening except with Wit and his communications box. They may be the part of the story that reveals a few big twists, investigating what truly happened at the Recreance. Thoughts?

Ever since I’ve read this Death Rattle, I believed that to truly break the bond with spren, you need to say Words opposite and contradictory to the Ideals you’ve spoken. This WoB suggests saying words is one of the ways to break the bond with spren. However up until RoW ch 93 there was nothing more to suggest this was the case. Until we saw Shallan breaking her own bond with Testament, by speaking words that might not feel important at first, yet are the key to her original Truths. To fully break the bond, she spoke inverted words of her original Truths and the First Ideal. First Ideal is contradicted with the last three sentences, as they fit together very well, this means breaking of the Oaths is in order from the one recently spoken, to the First Ideal “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination” - “You never existed. You are nothing. And I am finished!” Life never existed, the Strength is nothing, and the journey is finished. This bears very close resemblance to the Death Rattle quoted above. Knowing this we can say that Shallan's bond with Testament was on the 4th Ideal. “I’m done!” negated her 2nd Truth, “I hate you!” was for 3rd one, and “I don’t want you!“ inverted the last, 4th Truth she had spoken. These seems like a simple statements and I believe her Truths were also childishly simply, even Shallan said it herself: We can now guess her original Truths with Testament: 2nd Truth is the opposite of “I’m done!”, so it would be about starting of something, Shallan just simply admitting that “this is a new beginning” fits well enough. 3rd Truth was contradicted with “I hate you!”, so her Truth would be saying that she likes Testament. “I like you”. 4th Truth, the last one, was broken with “I don’t want you!“. Her Truth might be realizing that she wants to spend time or be with Testament, or even that she needs her. Now Shallan's situation with Testament is different from Kaladin’s with Syl in WoR. Kaladin didn’t say the contradicting words, he didn’t fully break his Oaths, he just didn’t live up to them. And when he started living by Ideals again, Syl was brought back to life, and he was able to say the 3rd Ideal. Shallan contradicted every single Ideal she’d spoken with inverted words. She can’t say the 5th Truth and make Testament alive again, she needs to reconstruct every Ideal she’s broken. And we have WoBs confirming it. She has already started doing it. She must have said her first Ideal somewhere in the past, maybe even at the same time she said it to Pattern unknowingly. Shallan said in RoW that she remembered using her surges after breaking the bond with Testament but before bonding Pattern, she soulcasted in WoK, and she was using Testament as a Shardblade during WoR. The most obvious candidate for her new Truth with Testament is “I’m terrified” spoken to a spren during events of WoK, when she soulcasted the goblet into blood. However, which Truth was reconstructed with these words is hard to say. It might be the 2nd one, or even the 3rd one, thus granting her ability to summon Testament as a Shardblade again, and allowing the blade to change shapes, open Oathgates, and look like a living Shardblade. To add more, Shallan admitting to killing or bonding Testament in RoW might be reconstruction of another Truth, as WoB posted above suggests this is a step in reconstructing her Oaths. But if that's true, then "I'm terrified" can't be 3rd one, as with the one in RoW she would be at 4th Ideal, and would fully reconstruct her Oaths. Yet Testament is still Deadeye. There might be something more needed, or her admitting to killing her spren might be just laying the foundation, not Oath reconstruction, because now she's aware of this, and now she can knowingly work on reconstructing more Oaths. What do you think? What were Shallan’s original Truths spoken with Testament? What Truths has she managed to reconstruct?

My main theory that changes how we count Shallan's Ideals is that Shallan said an Ideal as she killed Testament. It would explain which swords she's using in WoR and how they are working. 1st Ideal— Same for all Orders. She said this early in her childhood. 2nd Ideal— She said this first to Testament. It was probably simple and childlike, given her age, maybe “I love you” or “you are my (only) true friend” being all alone in the Davar House. My theory: Lightweavers earn their Blade at 2nd Ideal, not 3rd. We've seen Windrunners and Edgedancers earn blade at 3rd Ideal (WoR for Kaladin, Edgedancer for Lift). Some don't even bond a spren until later Ideals (like Skybreakers in OB). Bottom line, Orders progress at different rates and makes sense from a Cultivation-based viewpoint (she would like variety in progression). 2nd Ideal— "I killed my father" is said to Pattern. This means that he's now a blade by the end of TWoK but can’t manifest yet because he’s weak in thinking and complex ideas. He can't even manifest physically until Shallan draws his pattern in the beginning of WoR. This means that Tyn is killed by Testament. In the moment before killing Tyn, Shallan notes: Notice: "But for her, it didn't have to be ten". I think "her" refers to Testament, not Shallan. Testament doesn't need to be summoned in 10 heartbeats because she is still partially bonded to Shallan. We also know deadeyes can be summoned in less, such as with Maya and Adolin (I think they got down to 7 beats). Right at this point Shallan begins to create Veil to hide the past about Testament (confirmed in RoW). The moment of her using Testament after all these years is what pushes her to make Veil, since that action of using Testament is what starts to bring the memories back. 3rd Ideal— My theory: "I hate you" is said to Testament. Yep, Shallan broke their bond as she swore the 3rd Ideal. Testament feels shame for letting Shallan kill her mother and accepts these words as truth, that she knows Shallan truly hates herself and Testament. It would be a great twist, since we wouldn't think that you can swear an Ideal while killing your spren. But Testament is the only one who needs to accept the Truths, and she does if moved to shame. 3rd Ideal— "I killed my mother" is said to Pattern. This was said after the Oathgate transfer, so Pattern had to have been a sword at that point already. This fits with the idea that Cryptics can be a blade by the 2nd Ideal. There is not nearly enough Investiture in Testament for her to do that, being a deadeyes; she can sometimes help soulcast and be a Blade, but that’s it. She moves slower than Pattern does in the Cognitive Realm, so Shallan running to the Oathgate and activating it at end of WoR might've happened too fast for Testament to keep up with her. We also know deadeyes move slowly and keep their distance from their Shardbearers (Maya walking a ways behind the group in OB). Shallan has no need to summon her afterwards, now that Pattern manifested as a Blade already in the chasms and again for the Oathgate, AND Shallan acknowledging how Pattern is different than other Blades, so she finds no need to summon Testament again. The transfer occurs and Testament is left on the platform in the Cognitive Realm, the mysterious island in the east where she was found by the shopkeeper (RoW) and held with her after that. 4th Ideal— "I'm terrified" is said to Testament in TWoK. These truths to her are still pretty simplistic because Testament is from a childhood bond. This grants some soulcasting for Shallan but it's still very weak. By the end of WoR, there's a that WoB says Shallan is on 4th Ideal. He's referring to this one, not any Ideals with Pattern. 4th Ideal-"I killed [my spren]" was said to herself in Kalak's study. Pattern has not yet accepted this (or maybe did offscreen but that seems weak), because he didn’t hear the truth. Remember, she forbid Pattern from following her to Kalak's house. 5th Ideal— This will be a one-and-done truth, a bridge between her bonds with the two spren. It will heal Testament and propel her to 5th ideal for both bonds. Testament’s Ideals revolve around shallan as a child while Pattern’s exposes her childhood, so 5th Ideal is a combination that satisfies both of her spren, and they both accept it. This makes it plausible for Shallan to sweat a single Ideal in the next book. Thoughts?

In the Lait page of Shallan's sketchbook, at the top there's faded women's script. Images: Has this already been decoded? I can't find anything on the coppermind. If not I'm ready to do so myself

Ok so opening up I just want to say I recognize the 'appeal' Brandon was going for with her character. Her feminine strength is something that is lacking in a lot of female protags over the years, and she does have a traumatic backstory. Her naivete and lightheartedness are both testaments to her character's mental strength and fortitude to remain through all her hardships. That being said, both those traits also make her the most ignorant, detestable, and unbearably annoying character in the entire Archive. Despite how smart she's supposed to be, and no matter how many times she points out a problem she might run into she still messes up and makes the story miserable. Most of her problems so far (I just finished Oathbringer), are completely caused by her and her own ineptitude to deal with her problems without whining about her daddy and mommy issues. I don't care if she killed everyone in her hometown with a knife, Hatred itself is invading the world while all the gods are gone and there's a massive power struggle between the major nations of the world. Suck it up, and quit masking your insecurity with crappy quips. God don't get me started on the quips. Every time this woman opens her mouth, whether its to say something to Pattern privately or to any Brightlord publicly, I wish she never did. I get it, she's 'clever.' That shouldn't mean slontzey though. A smart, clever character can and be written so much better. To those who still wanna play the "woman strong" card, I'd advise looking at Navani or Jasnah. Both are extremely clever, strong, and independent despite it being in different ways. Jasnah's quips are crappy digs but intellectual pokes, tailored to the conversation perfectly. Navani is perhaps the most powerful woman in Alethkar. Despite her status as the Queen Regent, she was able to maintain a very powerful position in the Alethi court through her intellectual prowess. I'd highly advise Shallan to gather her thoughts and return to the story once she quits her crying and slontzeing every second. TL;DR - Shallan is a loser; I wish she wasn't so important to the story; The other women in the story are so much better and should be more important.

So i'm re-reading Stormlight an stumbled across this beautiful scene: This joke flew right over my head the first time. Last week I was reading that scene during my break at work and that one got me off guard. I literally start laughing and then had to explain to my coworkers what was so funny in my book. I just didn't remember that Pattern is the centre of such good jokes. On the other hand, it has been a while since i last read these books. Just wanted to share this memorable moment with you. That said, i hope you all have a nice day

It's very simple. Shallan dies, becomes a Cognitive Shadow, and joins/goes up against Thaidakar throughout the Cosmere. I mostly get this idea from the fact that someone dies in 5, and the quote: And that's after she finds the maps with the Cosmere worlds on it. So there you go!

This is something that puzzled me in reading Wit's stories/interactions. If y'all could offer input, that'd be cool. I noticed that it seems like Wit is a lot gentler when he tells Shallan a story/talks to her than when he tells Kaladin stories/talks to him. For example, in Rhythm of War, in the Dog and the Dragon, Kaladin says, This seems a bit harsh, considering all Kaladin's been through in the past ?week?month?(technically we don't know that Wit knows that, but I've just gotten used to assuming Wit knows everything. And he could probably figure out something's going on, judging by Kaladin's exhaustion/"close to giving up") We also have the story of Fleet(or at least that scene): This seems... unnecessary. It is really funny, but it's a seemingly random jab at Kaladin, who I'm not sure needs it or could benefit from it. In Wandersail, Wit doesn't exactly insult Kaladin, but he does intentionally misinterpret what Kaladin says to annoy him, kind of a lot. And while Wit still is very gentle and sweet to Kaladin at times, he is also quite salty sometimes. Whereas with Wit, at least in the chapter The Girl Who Stood Up, pretty much the meanest things he say to her are "I thought you knew this story", "Skip? Skip part of a story?", "Wrong answer. She was both", along with some interesting debates. But other than that, he's loving and kind and comforting to her, a sharp contrast to how he treats Kaladin a good chunk of the time. Does anyone care to offer their ideas for why this is the case? P.S. I am aware that Wit is a worldhopper and is more commonly referred to as Hoid. But I prefer calling him Wit.

So I wrote Bridgeboy(a parody of Gaston. It's not very good.) And I tried to do Lightweaver(a parody of Believer by Imagine Dragons. But it's hard. Any help?) I present: We Don't Talk About Moash! Any suggestions for fixing the struggling rhythm are welcome. MAJOR RoW spoilers follow: Also Surface Pressure for Kaladin is one I've thought of but not started. Any takers?

I just wanted to toot my own horn and say that during the scene when Shallan and Jasnah were on the boat, and Shallan sees Jasnah get stabbed, I had a feeling that Jasnah was not actually dead. My husband read the books before me, and tried to tell me that she really was dead, but I just didn't believe it. Wanted more people to know that I was right! When she came back in later on, I cheered for being right.

Hey everyone, Not sure if this is worth making a thread for but just read the below sequence from WoR Chapter 63 and was just blown away how I did not notice this. Love how Shallan just casually drops what a spren who has had their bond broken in Shadesmar is supposed to be like. Brandon with the "100 Sneak" in writing haha.

We have seen some of best moments in Cosmere, and some which disappointed us in Rhythm of War. We have our favorite moments from our characters and then there are those moments which have gutted our souls out. I created this thread so that we can share our sorrows (and joyful tears) and divide them among ourselves, discuss what broke our hearts in ways tears started to spill from our eyes. I'll start by stating the moments which wrecked me apart: Do share yours, our Rhythm of Melancholy.

I wrote a fanfic about Shallan starting to come to terms with her privilege as a lighteyes. She is Transformed through three keteks that Ishnah wrote for her as part of a research project. Here is the ao3 link to the fic, and below are the three keteks.

Shallan tells Kalidan that she killed her father, but she does not tell Adolin about this even after their marriage At very end of RoW she tells about Gostblood (I assume) but not about her past Does she really love Adolin ? or Is she like Navani, choosing the saner option ?

So, just a quick little question for fun: What d&d (5e) classes would each main character in Stormlight be, and what level ?