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On a whim earlier today, I decided to see what might happen if I fed the opening lines of the prologue of WoK into a bot and watched what it came up with. Bizarrely, it seemed to have some idea of what the Stormlight Archive is, who some of the major characters are, and even concepts like bridge crews, lighteyes, spren, etc. It also managed to be marginally coherent, at least until the character limit ran out. Of course, being a bot, it has no idea of the context of anything, and so ended up producing a twisted funhouse mirror version of WoK where Kaladin and Bridge Four are trying to build a bridge under the not-so-watchful eye of a nameless king, while Kaladin is apparently pretending to be Sadeas's son for some completely inexplicable reason. Oh, and Szeth may be the Dragon Reborn, but I'm not entirely sure on that. The text I gave it was, of course, "Szeth-son-son-Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, wore white on the day he was to kill a king." The bot I used was here:https://app.inferkit.com/demo As for the "story" itself, behold behind the cut! And yes, I know it cuts off in mid-sentence. That's part of the charm;).

Adolin killed Sadeas, a Highprince, and then even confessed to his father about it. Why hasn't Dalinar done anything about it? Isn't that kind of crime punishable by exile at the least, execution at worst, even if the one committing the crime was a highprince's son? I love Adolin's character, but it feels that this hasn't really been resolved yet. It feels...weird, and frankly a little messed up in my opinion that all the characters who know of this just kind of ignore it. Am I missing something?

In WoK, Hoid tempts Sadeas to kill him. What would he have done if Sadeas actually did try? He can't die. Would have he revealed his healing factor? How would that scene have played out if Sadeas did try? Would he even lose hos lands if Hoid was still alive or is it the attempt that matters?

Still wishing we had some more Brandon Sanderson books to read instead of watching the horrific collapse of our country. Though this week I'd settle for a statement about racism and injustice. I agree with NattyBo's post about silence. I do think, however, that Brandon communicates best in his books. This week I reread the way of kings chapter Justice, one of my favorite moments. Navani walks up to Sadeas paints the ketek Justice on the ground, says a prayer, and lights it on fire. Maybe don't actually do that. However, you choose to seek justice, be safe, be strong, and stand united. Also, check out my other Blackmail Theories, Hoid's Holiday and Lift's Gifts. Blackmail Theory: Seducing Sadeas Sadeas is treacherous, conniving, power hungry and ruthless in the best way. He is also surprisingly loyal. He is loyal to Gavilar all through the unification war. He is loyal to Elhokar for six years on the shattered plains. Sadeas and Gavilar took a lot of risks, fought duels, waged war. Gavilar got shards, lands, a kingdom and a crown. What did Sadeas get? Does anyone think his goal was to have a good king for Alethkar? My theory is that he wasn't loyal to Gavilar. He was loyal to Navani. By loyal of course I mean getting all up in her sleave. Turn on your Shaggy sound tracks now. "Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his. (Navani) YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE. (Stormfather) (OB 58)" I've got nothing but love for Navani, but you've got to admit she has a thing for powerful men and she goes for what she wants. She 'practically seduces' Dalinar. She doesn't care about tradition and she never loved Gavilar. She and Gavilar were very different people. Gavilar didn't share his secrets or his plans involving the Sons of Honor with her. As Gavilar lay dying he didn't spare a thought or a word for her. Gavilar loved his kingdom. He saw Navani as part of that, a jewel on his crown. Sadeas by contrast wasn't always a red-faced, aging, lump of evil dough. The red-faced thing is likely the result of excess drinking. When he was younger, Sadeas was powerful, a skilled swordsman, well dressed, intelligent, and more interested in Navani than Gavilar was. We get some glimpses into Sadeas's mind. We see that he doesn't really love Ialai. Their marriage is based on a shared cunning ruthlessness and a love of power. Sadeas and Ialai literally scratch each others backs. Sadeas covets things, gemhearts, shards, ryshadium, kingdoms. He doubtless coveted Gavilar's finest jewel. Navani and Sadeas must have been around each other on campaigns and at court. All of this is to say, there was plenty of opportunity and motive here. Let us imagine that Sadeas and Navani did have an affair. Navani keeps stringing Sadeas along, the occassional late night tryst. Sadeas hating Gavilar but staying by his side so he can be close to Navani. Then Gavilar dies and Sadeas comes to the shattered plains. Sadeas can at last marry her and have what he wants, but she's in mourning and he's married so he waits some more. Perhaps she leads him on a bit to keep him loyal to her son. Then Navani chooses to follow her heart and be with the man who has always loved her, always seen her for herself. She choses Dalinar, a stupid, brutish, Kholin, again. It almost makes you feel bad for Sadeas. It explains his mysterious loyalty and his terrible hatred for Dalinar. Alright, I know this theory has run on a bit. It does sound a bit more G.R.R.M. than Sanderson, but Sanderson does try to push himself into new things. I have some more evidence if people need convincing, but I'll just add one more speculation. What if Jasnah is Sadeas's daughter? Both are well dressed, black haired, cunning, ruthless, and power hungry. What if Jasnah's childhood lunacy is her knowing the truth about her parents? Did Adolin kill Jasnah's father? Does Jasnah have a blood right to the throne? How upset is Dalinar going to be when Ialai tells everyone? The most important words a man can say, "I will remember that my wife is always right."

In one of Dalinar's early flashbacks (the one when he recruits Taleb), Sadeas says they need to get him some shardplate, not to protect Dalinar since he's "not sure a rock slide could kill [Dalinar]" but because it's embarrassing the others how much havoc he can cause without shards. Years later, Dalinar and Sadeas are sent to subdue Rathelas after Gavilar has failed to do so politically. Evie prevails upon Dalinar to try negotiating one last time so he can avoid slaughtering all those "innocents." During the talks, Tanelon reveals that a high prince supposedly loyal to Gavilar has been helping him but won't name him because he won't be believed without Dalinar discovering it for himself...and shortly afterward evidence is presented that Sadeas is the culprit. Dalinar goes off to meet that threat, Tanelon betrays him, Sadeas arrives at the Rift, and the situation with Evie is set in motion. Dalinar comes to the conclusion that Tanelon was framing Sadeas to sow discord in the king's supporters...but what if it wasn't a frame job? It's fairly obvious that Sadeas has been crafty for years and he's married to Ialai, another crafty, tricky, sneaky person. They are ambitious and power hungry. Sadeas may have been happy to have Gavilar as king and be the power behind the throne, but as long as Dalinar was around he wasn't the only power behind the throne. He was the political power, but Dalinar was the brute, military power, and Gavilar would turn to Dalinar instead of Sadeas at least part of the time. Dalinar on the other hand is very straight-forward and not likely to see through a convoluted plot. Sadeas could very well have been encouraging revolt at the rift, essentially playing both sides. He didn't want Tanelon to actually succeed, but he did want him to eliminate Dalinar. It would be far easier for Sadeas to make it look like he was supporting Tanelon (if this thought process is true), than for Tanelon to set up the framing himself. The appearance of evidence at just the right time would lure Dalinar away from the rift and there could only be two outcomes. Dalinar survives and returns to find Sadeas ready to attack Rathelas, confirming for Dalinar that Sadeas had been framed (even though he wasn't), or Dalinar dies, eliminating a threat to Sadeas, and Sadeas uses that as an excuse to destroy Rathelas anyway (double-crossing Tanelon who he never actually wanted to succeed), further cementing his influence with Gavilar. Sure I've strung this together on less than a shoestring, but the trap for Dalinar used the very thing Sadeas mentioned as one of the only possibilities for killing him - a landslide. What do you think? Did Sadeas betray Dalinar MANY years before Gavilar's death, or was it their rivalry and different approaches to warfare on the Shattered Plains that finally pushed him into betrayal for the first time?

Here is the quote for those who want it. It’s a line by Renarin, spoken to his brother Adolin. “I don’t like you get when you are around Sadeas.” So yeah, I just started a reread, and I thought that line was worth noting. Brandon FORESHADOWED the conflict All the way in chapter 12 the FIRST TIME WE MEET THESE CHARACTERS. And I don’t know if it’s relavent or not but given how we later learn about Renarin Voidbinding visions of the future, is it possible he’s been seeing them since before we met him? And ONE of the reasons he’s worried is because of a vision? I don’t know but in any case this little bit here gained SO much new relavance. That I had to share it.

Because this is the closest I'll ever get to skill at art, I present to you good people of the shard... Stormlight Archive, as told by legos! (only characters right now, I may do some other things in the future... In order: Szeth - (assassin in white), Blackthorn, Eshonai, Elhokar, Sadeas - (grandbow), Shallan, Kaladin - (Radiant), Renarin - (bonding a Blade), Renarin - (Radiant). I just realized these belong in a gallery, all my new ones will be there

From Mraize's letter, we know: And then back in the prologue of Oathbringer, we have: So, the prologue meeting that Eshonai stumbles into appears to be a Sons of Honor meeting between Gavilar and Amaram and four others (one soldier, two fine ladies, and one old man in robes), where no guards were even at the door, presumably because they wanted a very secretive meeting where even guards were not allowed to listen in. My question is, who are the four others? Restares, perhaps Taravangian The old man in robes appears to be Restares. Amaram writes in a spanreed to Restares (WoR Page 1059), saying, "It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor." Amaram had also presumably consulted with Restares via spanreed when deciding slaughter his own men so that he could steal Kal's Shardblade: "Restares is right— this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar.” (WoK, Page 703) Restares is only mentioned in three places over all three books: as one of three of Gavilar's suspects during his assassination (WoK prologue), when Amaram slaughters Kal's men (WoK), and when Amaram writes to Restares via spanreed (WoR). The Stormlight Archive Wiki states that Restares is an Alethi brightlord, but I'm not sure that we know this even though Amaram implies that Restares said the theft of the Shardblade was for the good of Alethkar. We never hear anything of Restares at all, which knowing Sanderson makes me suspect that Restares is a fake name given how often he gives other names to characters - Heralds like Darkness, Ash, Ahu, and Tezim or the five Scholars - to obfuscate their true identities. I wonder if Restares is not in fact Taravangian or some other old dude we know well. In Oathbringer (Page 242), Dalinar tells us that he had met Mr. T before "his strange illness five years ago." And then the strongest evidence that Taravangian is Restares and a Son of Honor is this quote from WoR: After Gavilar's death and access to the visions ended, Mr. T seeks the Nightwatcher, asking that he be the one to unite them, which led to the Diagram. I will leave all discussion of the Diagram to other wonderful threads, though it does seem that followers of the Diagram and Sons of Honor diverge a bit. However, keeping his position in the Sons of Honor (if he is Restares) would be a brilliant way to keep the information flowing from surviving allies there. Torol and Ialai Sadeas Torol Sadeas is undeniably close to Gavilar, willing to sacrifice his life for Gavilar's own during the assassination attempt and always 100% loyal to Gavilar despite the fact that, following Gavilar's death, he's tried his best to undermine and even kill Dalinar at every possible step. Why the difference? Apparently, Torol was privy to secrets about Gavilar's true, ruthless and Machiavellian nature - secrets of which Dalinar and Elohkar and even Jasnah apparently had no inkling. How is that possible? What secrets did he know? And wouldn't we peg Torol as Gavilar's closest and most trusted companion outside of family? Didn't Torol do all of the politicking with Gavilar when Dalinar refused? So to me, it makes enormous sense that Torol was a Son of Honor, sharing the same ruthlessness and Machiavellian approaches as Gavilar and Taravangian and Amaram. In fact, Meridas was likely recruited by Torol, as was Ialai. Just like House of Cards, Torol and Ialai are playing this game together, 100%. So my thoughts are that Torol actually dressed in his soldier attire for the signing of the treaty with the Parshendi (hence he and Amaram make the two soldiers), and Ialai is one of the two women in long dresses. So the other woman could be... Aesudan We see Gavilar pushing Jasnah into Amaram's arms. Obviously, Gavilar wants to keep the Sons in the family. And Aesudan tells El in OB that his father was ever so much better than he was: Aesudan knows of one (but perhaps not the other) of Gavilar's spheres, and she seems to have continued trapping more bad spren, going even a step further by bonding. But how was she privy to Gavilar's grand plans? How did she know of his father's work and his ancient (evil) spren? I'm thinking that was because she was one of the lady Sons. Yet again, we see the same ruthless, Machiavellian nature in Aesudan as we do in Gavilar, Amaram, Torol, Ialai, and Taravangian. They all fit beautifully together.

Who do you guys think is worse? Sadeas or Straff.

I haven't been part of the forums when WoR was released so forgive me if this has been done before. I'd like y'all to give input about Adolin's sense of morality, because frankly I've started believing he doesn't have a personal sense of moral code. We need evidence that he has a conscience and that his actions are drived by his innate sense of right and wrong, and not by social ideals or his family's laws/code. To clarify, this is not an Adolin bashing thread, I want to see logical arguments and parts in the books. I know that we do not have a lot of Adolin POV, so that will probably lead to a lot of misleading and assumptions, but either way whatever parts we can use that indicate what drives his sense of moral are most welcome. EDIT: CLARIFICATION!!!! My point for making this thread isn't about what you and I think about his morality, but to define where his morality stands. I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do. I added the Sadeas murder as a second question, in order to see where people stand in terms of how moral it is to kill an unarmed evil man. If my comments on Sadeas' murder anger you please do not comment on them. We clearly disagree. My point is not to disagree, but to agree on a common ground, which can only be parts from the books. /CLARIFICATION!!!! ============================================================================================================= I'll start with his worst bit. Sadeas' murder. 1. He is troubled that the "world has shifted" with the discovery of Urithiru. Specifically his position within society is changing. Is this so important to him that it gives him an identity crisis? 2. He describes himself as being a powerful man being charitable in betrothing "a relatively minor scion of a distant house". Does he stay betrothed because he wants it or because it was initially the charitable, and now socially logical thing to do? 3. He wanted to kill Sadeas beforehand and his presence challenges his sense of control over himself. He even visualizes Sadeas' face as bloody before he murders him. We also have another part before this scene that shows that he wanted to kill Sadeas before, but the only thing stopping him was "it would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold" edit: It was premeditated, not 'in the heat of passion'. 4. Something clearly snapped within him. It's just not irrevocably enraged. Is there a 'yet' implied here ? Is this foreshadowing to his future? 5. This wasn't 'in the heat of passion' but clearly in cold blood. There is no remorse there and he knows it himself as he does it. Removed because I messed up the quoting! 6. He thinks he is a worse man than his father. I this the moment of this realization or has he already done other things that made him conclude to this beforehand? Also, we see him placing his father as his moral code. If his father's placement changes, what will that do to him? 7. Again he doesn't recognize Sadeas as a person or someone that he personally knows but 'a highprince', that's how society views him. He clearly detaches himself from the connection to the victim. 8. He is considering of retrieving the Shardblade later on, either for the fortune, himself or father. I'd personally bet on 'for his father'. 9. He is cool headed enough to not get blood on his clothing, cut off his cuffs and erase all evidence that proved that he was there in the first place. Another evidence of cold blood.

Hi all, As suggested by @Ookla the Toasted and seconded by @Nathrangking, I am starting a Torol Sadeas appreciation thread. All posts here must be positive to Sadeas, our hero, and the greatest man to even live upon Roshar. Any criticism of our martyred champion will be summarily dismissed and you may be beaten down with feathers of white and green. Anyway, in order to give you some ideas about how to support our beloved and deeply mourned idol, why don't I go first? Torol Sadeas was marvelously clever (until he wasn't), honest (for a given value of honest) and honorable (when it suited him) .We will never see another like him. PS: I think this is ok to post here but if not can someone tell me where it should go?

That is really worrying, this apparently deep affection those two show. I now think, Ialai is deep in mourning and suffering badly. That makes her much more dangerous, than I previously thought. A scheming person would have been something much more rational.

I just had this overwhelming feeling while reading Chapter 11 that Sadeas and Dalinar somehow switched personalities at some point before the events in tWoK, and that this switch was somehow linked to Dalinar approaching the Old Magic. Almost everything old Sadeas says and does reminds me of current Dalinar, while old Dalinar seems so similar to "new" Sadeas from tWoK and WoR. Is there any way some portion of their personalities were switched without their knowledge? “Calm, Dalinar,” Sadeas said from beside him in the mist. Sadeas wore his own golden Plate. “Patience.” - Oathbringer, CH 11, B. Sanderson, Tor.com “But think of the benefit, Dalinar,” Sadeas said. “Your wedding could bring us alliances, Shards. Perhaps you could win us a princedom—one we wouldn’t have to storming drive to the brink of collapse before they join us!” - Oathbringer, CH 11, B. Sanderson, Tor.comhi Sadeas would have never said something like that in tWoK or WoR. But those sound exactly like things current Dalinar would say to Adolin, Kaladin, or Elhokar. Is that result of Dalinar's grey-beard wisdom... or is it something more? It sounds so crazy... but I still can't get the thought out of my head. So please rip it to shreds so I can forget it!

I just wanted to make sure everybody will notice this piece of art based on WoK. It's not mine, but it's so awesome!

For some reason, I haven't seen this pop up yet. It seems obvious. With Sadeas' death, I think Amaram rises to fill his place as highprince. He was already the second most powerful lighteyes in his realm, and Sadeas mentions having an understanding with him. I think he is Sadeas' heir. That will certainly put a damper on any attempt to prosecute Amaram for killing Kaladin's men and stealing his Shards.

Just occurred to me that Dalinar could, in response to Sadeas' murder, take the fall of Adolin legally if (or when) the consequences eventually come to fruition. Thoughts on this?

Hello fellow Sharders, One question has recently plagued my mind- Who is worse, Sadeas or Amaram? Amaram is bad because he betrayed someone who we actually know and care about, whereas Sadeas betrayed just a bunch of soldiers, (sorry if that sounded really callous). So, who is worse? Please vote.

So, as Gavilar lay dying, he suspected Thaidakar, Restares and Sadeas of being behind the murder. Thaidakar and Restares are bith involved in Secret Societies, something that Gavilar also was. That is why Sadeas name popping up there is suspicious. Either Gavilar just suspects him because he's an oily prick, or because Gavilar knew that he was part of one of the Societies. Another thing about Sadeas is that he knows who Amaram truly is, something few others seems to know. Might this be a lead to show that he was part of the Sons of Honor?

IMPORTANT: Due to feedback, the original number of 525,000 dead bridgemen total has been revised. So ... bridgemen. The Stormlight Archive version of redshirts. (If you don't know what a redshirt is, that's OK.) But how many of them actually died in the books? Well, there were 40 bridge crews, and half of those went, per run. Each bridge crew had an average of 35-40 bridgemen. Let's say 35. We also know that on the good runs the loss was between a third to a half. That's an average of 41% casualty per good run, say around 50% casualty rates on all runs. Every year, according to the conversation between Shallan and Adolin, 150 chasmfiends were spotted. Sadeas is very aggressive, so let's say he went on a third of them. So, 50 runs a year. 20 crews x 35 members x 50 runs x 50% casualty rate = 17,500 dead bridgemen per year, or 175,000 total (ten years) Oh, and that's just Sadeas. Oh, and that's just his bridgemen, not even his actual army. Meaning, supposed they all were trained, the Parshendi seemingly had no problem keeping him, and nine other armies, some larger them him at bay during a war of attrition. Way of Kings claim that the Alethkar army is well over 100,000. The bridgemen corpses are under 200,000. From Sadeas. Anyone care to correct my math? Math updated. Correct my new math.

So in Words of Radiance (can't give the direct quote or page number since I am moving and my copy is in a taped-up box), Sadeas says that he likes his wife Ialai's name because unlike most Rosharan names, which are palindromes except one letter off, her name is a perfect palindrome and therefore a bit arrogant. Similarly, Kabsal compliments Shallan on her name in Way of Kings because it's one sound off from a palindrome. So why does Laral, Kaladin's childhood friend/almost-fiancee/it's complicated, have a perfect palindrome name? Or, for that matter, Rillir, Brightlord Roshone's ill-fated son who died of idiocy when he tried to kill a whitespine? Any ideas on the inconsistency? Perhaps giving your (light-eyed) kid a perfect palindrome name was less of a taboo in the countryside, but Rillir came from the capital city, where it would have been heavily frowned upon.

For all that's been written about it, I don't think the aftermath of Sadeas's murder will be a big part of book 3. It will be important for some characters but there'll be much more important things going on. But I have some thoughts on this I'd like to share. Two quotes from chapter 50 "uncut gems": I don't think many people are going to morn Sadeas's passing, to put it mildly. I've not seen any indication that he was popular or well liked anymore. In particular, for many people in Dalinar's camp, the reaction is more likely to be the reverse - grim joy that the bastard finally got what was coming to him. Dalinar lost several thousand soldiers at the end of tWoK, all because of Sadeas. The new bridgemen soldiers would hardly be well disposed to Sadeas either. Also, a number of lighteyes died during the bridge collapse assassination attempt. Let's put it another way: most of the people in Dalinar's camp would probably think Adolin deserves a medal. Dalinar exiling Adolin (or similar) would not be popular at all with them. This could potentially open up a dangerous rift within Dalinar's camp. Please note: I'm not arguing whether Adolin's actions were moral or not by our standards or that the law is a popularity contest. I'm trying to consider the likely in-world implications. Also, I'll assume for the sake of argument that Adolin is generally considered guilty and/or confesses to the murder relatively quickly and that Dalinar will come down hard on him. I'll also assume that Kaladin won't play much if any part in this (off to see parents) This wouldn't be the best start for Dalinar's Oath to bind men together. I also think that Dalinar is partly to blame for giving Sadeas way too much leeway. Yes, Dalinar was in a difficult situation but I think he was partly motivated by his old friendship with Sadeas. Ditto Amaran - I suspect that letting him run free will turn out to be a big mistake. Being benevolent is all well and good but there are downsides. It also rather unfair and inconsistent if Dalinar is harsh with his allies and soft with his enemies. So, what can be done? I don't think Dalinar will be willing to simply pardon Adolin and he'd certainly not want to have him executed. It seems the minimum possible punishment would normally be exile. But it would be surprising to see Adolin simply walk off the stage (let alone be executed). I suspect that Adolin will be imprisoned until a final punishment is decided. So again, what can be done? Based on what we know, I think maybe the best option would be to retro-actively get Sedeas declared to have been a traitor to the Throne and have his title of Highprince stripped. I think that would help a lot - I get the impression that killing a Highprince is automatically a much bigger crime. Given the mitigating circumstances maybe Adolin's punishment will boil down to time in jail and losing a rank. Of course, there's a lot we don't know about Alethi law - maybe this would be a non-option but it seems reasonable to me currently. So who is going to put together a compelling case, enough that pretty much everyone would accept it (including the other Highprinces)? My bet would be on Shallan and Renarin with some help from Navani. The main "opposition" would be Ialai. So, why Shallan? For brevity's sake I'll just consider what I think is the most likely reaction: Shallan has killed people herself (Tyn the day before she met Adolin), she was very much aware that Adolin hates Sadeas since she put together a plan to have Sadeas legally killed in a duel (to help/impress Adolin). Morally, she might not see much difference between legally killing someone in a dual and what Adolin did. So, I think Shallan would be surprised but not horrified - she would understand and not condemn. In a way, it could help them get closer since Shallan could feel that she could discuss her dark secrets with Adolin. The more Shallan cares about Adolin the more likely she would be to take action - if she doesn't care much about him and if supporting him would become a liability for protecting her bothers then yes she could just walk away (which would really hurt Adolin I think). So, why Renarin? Certainly events in WoR clearly showed him willing to risk life and limb to help/protect Adolin. Of course, we don't know for sure how Renarin would react in these particular circumstances. I suspect he will feel quite conflicted at the beginning - he respects his father too. I could certainly see him getting behind a plan to retro-actively strip Sadeas of his title, or something along those lines. So, could Shallan and Renarin work together, despite the events towards the end of WoR? I'd say so - there were mitigating circumstances on both sides and greater understanding would definitely help (and apologies). Before things got bad, Shallan and Renarin were getting along fine and Renarin was arguably more useful and faster on the uptake than the trained scholars (!). So, in summary: Adolin spends a lot of time in the slammer with a proverbial axe hanging over him. His fiancée and brother lead the fight for him. Sadeas's widow is the "new" (public) opposition. Dalinar stews in the middle, thinking lots of deep thoughts and worries about his own people and own sons. There's lots and lots of other possibilities but this is my main prediction currently - which I expect will be utterly wrong in practice