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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. The Knights Radiant adhere to the philosophy that the ends do not and never will justify the means. Unlike Taravangian who is committing atrocities in the name of "The Greater Good" the KnightsRadiant are forced to work the hard way by living by ideals and honorably. But the Radiants en masse (except perhaps the Skybreakers) broke their oaths on the same day. This was after the Desolations had ended and resulted in the Nahel bonds failing and the Spren abandoning mankind. We know that a war was going on right before the Recreance and that the Radiants were fighting in the war and after they abandoned their blades and plates and left from what we see in Dalinar's vision in WoK (At least the Windrunners and theStonewards). What is something that would break the oaths of all of the knights at once, something that the Knights could be convinced was worth doing that would be dishonorable, that was for the Greater Good, that took the easy path. An unethical action that all the knights would do. I see two possibilities and they're related. There are two events that have happened in the past that require great power and would seem to break the Knights first ideal. One is the shattering of the shattered plains. The other is the enslaving of the Listeners. I don't think it is a conincidence that the last free listeners live on the edge of the kingdom that was shattered by someone. I think Natanatan may have been figthing a war with the Listeners before the Listeners of Narak fled and abandoned civilzation, culture, and the forms and retreated into the wilderness in Dull Form. I think the Radiants were called in to stop the war of join the war and were somehow convinced that the Listeners would bring on another Desolation. I think the Radiants may have been convinced to make a preemptive strike to avoid the Desolation that may or may not be coming and destroy the Listeners entirely before they could summon a Desolation. So they shattered the Area around Stormseat by working together somehow and enslaved all the other Listeners. This stopped the threat, but was such an abhorent, deplorable, dishonorable act, such an egregious breach of the first Ideal that the Radiants agreed to do that it broke all their oaths beyond repair. I haven't put all the pieces together and I don't think we know enough. This is just a hypothesis. I think what broke the oaths was the result of either the breaking of Stormseat to stop the Listeners, or the enslavement of the Parshmen.

I go for two months without making a new theory, and today I make three. Well, here we go, anyway. This one will be shorter and more straightforward than the other two. According to Words of Radiance, one of the ten orders did not participate in the recreance. According to Words of Radiance, the stonewards were very much like their patron, Talenel. In particular, they were steadfast and unrelenting. According to the prologue of the Way of Kings, Talenel was left bound in the oathpact when the other nine walked away. It makes sense that the order that is full of stubborn people who would fight to the bloody end would be the ones who don't participate in the recreance. There is also a certain elegant symmetry to the stonewards being the order that did not participate in the recreance, and Talenel being the herald that did not forsake the oathpact many years before the recreance. This is all just speculation of coarse... But in the absence of more information, I think that the stonewards are a pretty good candidate for being the order that didn't participate in the recreance.

Cleaned up version: We know one order of KRs did not betray their oaths, concealing that with great subterfuge. We see two orders (Windrunners and Stonewards) in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance When trying to answer the question of which order is was, point 2 is used rule those two orders out. But is that valid? Or could the "great subterfuge" be that e.g. the Stonewards either faked their participation or they had most of their members participate to conceal that a small number did not? This has come up in a few threads now, but more as a comment/idea. I decided to start this thread to discuss how viable one or both are. Note that these could apply to the other orders as well, but the obvious interest is the Stonewards. Pros to faking participation in the Recreance: Still have the entire team together. Cons to faking participation in the Recreance: Requires some impressive illusions, which suggests the Lightweavers are most likely able to pull this off. But we have no reason to suspect them, and a lot of recent theories favor linking the Stormwards with the Shin. That's a big secret to keep, especially over time. And a lot of people to keep that secret. Shouldn't something have worked its way into the history books? Or should Honor have taken notice? It seems like they would need to go to ground or come up with a mass cover. How the heck do you keep the spren from blabbing? If every order participated with at least one other order: Would the "faking-their-death" spren really want to be anywhere near a bunch of their spren actually dying? And even if they thought they could tough it out, could they really? Pros to actually participating in the Recreance: In theory much easier to keep a secret. The Stonewards+Shin tie-in makes a lot of sense thematically, and this makes that possible. Moreso if only 8 remained as part of the order. It could explain certain views the Shin have (with such a high price to pay, they may abhor violence -- or that was part of the cover, that may have over time become a new adopted philosophy. ) and why they have the honorblades. Cons to actually participating in the Recreance: Wow, that's a major sacrifice if you don't actually agree with it. ??? Some random thoughts/questions: How likely would any non-bonded spren notice the subterfuge? Would Honor notice? And if so, why not mention the order in the visions? Because he could not predict what state they would be in? Still, why not even throw in a quick line about trying to contact the this order? Was he in on the subterfuge? The Stormfather hasn't had a chance to mention it yet? When was Vorin religoen and the Ardents formed? In the "faking participation" scenario, that could be one way to cover up what happened, but I thought both predated the Recreance? Though that may not stop a mass influx of ardents (and they may be able to wipe that from the history books). Is there any other group or city that they could have gone to or formed? How long have the Shin been around (or their leaders)? I am particularly interested in ways that the subterfuge may have been noticed. For example, would it be easier from Shadesmar? If Honor, Cultivation, or Odium noticed, would they leave us any hints (and what may those be)?

Not sure if something similar has been proposed before. When reading this thread, I started thinking about some things we know about the Heralds, the Honorblades, and the Nahel bond. Unlike normal shardblades, Honorblades don't seem to disappear if you drop them. (Presumably, you have to consciously unsummon it.) This can be seen when Taln collapses in the WoK epilogue, and when Szeth drops through the highstorm at the end of WoR. Taln's Honorblade was with him when he returned from Damnation. The Shin never had his blade. The other Heralds left their blades behind when they abandoned the Oathpact. These things seem to suggest that the Honorblades themselves are very much connected to their specific Heralds, but also the Oathpact itself. Taln's blade seems to have gone with him to Damnation when he died, and the Heralds who did not want to go back left their blades behind. Why would they do that? Was the Honorblade the thing that facilitated the Pact? We also know that the Nahel bond was an attempt by spren to copy what the Honorblades did. We've assumed this means giving access to stormlight and surges, but what if it went further than that? What if all Knights Radiant, by virtue of having a Nahel bond, were accidentally partially included in the Oathpact, in some way? What if any Knight who dies while still connected to their spren is sent to Damnation, to be tortured indefinitely? What if that revelation is what led to the Recreance? Who would want to continue being a Knight, if it meant eternal Damnation? There are some problems with this. For example, it doesn't explain why the existence of Surgebinders could lead to a new Desolation, which is something that many people (including one Herald) think. I would be surprised if the Recreance wasn't connected to that issue. Also, in the case of the Heralds, the Blade goes with them (or they go with the Blade), as a part of the Oathpact, according to this theory. However, we can be fairly certain that this is not true for the spren who create the bonds - they can be traumatized by the death of their Knight, but they aren't sent to Braize, and can rebond with someone else. This could just be explained by the fact that spren and Honorblades are different. Spren are alive, for one. A bit of a cop-out answer, but hey! Lastly, the Heralds return at every desolation, and no dead Knights do. And we have heard that keeping the Desolation at bay has been Taln's burden alone. If my theory is right, I think this can be explained by the fact that the Knights were never included in the Oathpact to begin with. Their inclusion is just accidental. That means that Odium has no obligation to fulfill his part of the bargain (whatever that means) with them. They are sent to Braize (because of the bond that imitates the Honorblades), but other than that, they don't affect the Desolations, they don't get to be sent back to Roshar, or anything. Just endless pain. On that cheery note, what are your thoughts?

I wanted to hear how you all would tear this theory I have up. Posted from a phone. Before the Recreance the Knights Radiant has had knights for a long time- All the orders were strong in the fight against the voidbringers. Or were they? To become a Radiant one must be broken for the spren to bond with. But what would happen if everyone or at least most of a population wanted or wished to become a Radiant? The Radiants wish to help others, so that they themselves don't have to be broken and that the world would be a better place. The people would then try to learn and imitate the Radiants. In the books we have a scene from the Ardents where if you were to measure a flame spren then it would freeze in that capacity. What would happen if through time the Radiants hit a point where they could not progress because everyone was doing what was right. It was the epic kingdoms all lands were united against the evils of the world. People wrote down the kindness and the epic stories of the Radiants, but at what point does that become common place, when the oaths they have sworn came down to take a general view to the point that if a Radiant isn't careful would break an oath in a otherwise acceptable time? Take the example from the alloy of law, Maraci she explains her fascination with lights. If everyone is the same pure white light then there is nothing different, it would be the darker lights that would be different. Kaladin even shared this view against Dalinar in the opposite light, as he rescued him. (Every bright eye was evil and hid behind a few good deeds). It was Dalinar who was a bright light which let him gain the trust of Shallan and Kaladin. Should the land of Roshar hit a point where everyone was this pure white light then there is no room to shine. Only way to let more Radiants to be free of this is to create a stain in everyones memories breaking the "leash" that bound what others thought that the Radiants had to do. I believe that the spren of the orders were getting to a point that they were freezing through the exact way they gain access to the Radiants. Note I believe the Radiants could still surgebind because they were still bonded and still upheld the oaths they had sworn. The Radiants tried everything to release the spren of the self image that others created. Sizgil mentioned that the most dishonorable weapon is the sword. Which is the reason that the shardblades took form in the shape of a sword. I think even Honor tried to leave room for interpretation when the honor blades were made by having them in a shape of a sword. Anything out there that tears theory apart? Sadly can't devote time like I would like to and made this post while riding a bus Short theory shorter: Radiant Spren got caught in a limitation of the minds and stories of men.

Are the Shin Stone Shamans the descendants/remnants/legacy of an Order of Knights Radiant that did not fall at the Recreance? Is that why they have all the Honorblades? As a slightly separate but related point: Was the only Order of Radiants that didn't feel betrayed, and so renounce their oaths, the one Order whose Heraldic Patron didn't lie to them about the desolations, i.e. Taln and the Stonewards? In which case, does this tie back to the theory that the Stone Shamans (the organisation that teaches that Stone is sacred and ward against its being walked upon) are the legacy of the Stonewards? Or is that a bit too much of a stretch? :-P

I searched and was not able to find anything in the forum in regards to this 'hidden order', but please point me to it if i missed it. In WoR it says that only nine of the ten orders as one would not abandon their arms and flee. Does this mean that there is an order of KR that has been roaming Roshar since the recreance? If yes my bet is the skybreakers, but I may be misinterpreting this quote. “This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. ” — Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20

There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.

Because of the formatting (I need footnotes for parts of it), I will have to resort to giving a Google Docs link. It's approaching lengthy, and it's not fully complete, but I got two of the major points out of the way. Secondly, I'm not fully finished with even those two points; I've got the main argument out of the way, but I feel like I'm lacking a few things, so expect the document to evolve over time, including parts III and IV. If you're really curious, part V (the notes) should be enough to explain what I'm getting at. Link to Rambling: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AZg-dlftdqdBy32egf23Ar5ugtrfFgUYEXk6ljCL1LM/edit?usp=sharing

I was thinking on the Oathpact and the Recreance for a while and I came up with this speculation: I don't know if what follows was already pointed out but I would like to read what do you think about it (though it's very far-fetched in some points and has few gaps). --- On the Oathpact, I think we can assume it's a pact between Honor and the Heralds. Tanavast gave them Honorblades and (maybe) immortality while the Heralds had at least two duties: 1) leading humans during Desolations; 2) keeping Odium at bay (trough suffering a lot of pain) between Desolations. I think duty #2 is "possible" according to the following quotes: - In the Prelude, Kalak says: - In Talenel Interlude, Taln thinks: - In the Second Letter it's said: So I think the Heralds talk of "torture" in a figurative sense: they suffer trying to hold Odium captive. When the Heralds can no more bear the pain, they return to Roshar (preparing humanity for the Desolation) while Odium regains his strength. Perhaps it's very arguable how the Heralds could keep a Shardholder captive (though suffering Hell) but maybe Honor lends each of them a fraction of his power while they are in Damnation. I don't know but let's pretend it's possible. After Aharietiam, the Oathpact is still valid and Odium is kept captive by Talenel. But, with only one Herald holding him, Odium had much more freedom than before. Now, I don’t know if in this condition Odium could flee from Damnation or if simply Taln withdrew from his duty but I think that, during the time of Recreance, Rayse freed himself and used this opportunity to kill Honor (maybe weakened from lending too much power to Talenel, in order to help him in keeping Odium at bay alone). After killing Tanavast, I believe Rayse had no much strength for fighting a Desolation but he tried anyway to further weaken mankind defense. He confronted the Radiants on the treachery of the Heralds and the possibility of fighting without their lead (likely meaning being destroyed by the Voidbringers). But Odium offered a treat: there would be no Desolation if the Knights Radiant gave up their positions. So the Radiants accepted and broke their oaths wile Rayse returned to Damnation, waiting for his opportunity (striking when men weren’t defended by Heralds or Radiants and Surgebinding was forgotten). I don’t exclude that (in this speculation) the death of Honor, that perhaps weakened the Nahel Bonds of the Radiants, had a part in their decision of stepping back. Now, in WoR it's said that only nine Orders out of the ten broke their oaths: I think that the latters are the Skybreakers: probably they are trying (from the Recreance until now) to kill other Surgebinders in order to keep the 'treat' with Odium and avoiding a new Desolation. The Order that didn't break his oaths could also have been that of the Bondsmiths: they (and their squires, because there were very few members) could have become Ardents and tried to unite Roshar in Vorinism trough the Hierocracy (against the threat of Odium). But I like the idea of the Skybreakers better. Thanks for reading until the end XD Sorry if my English was bad: it's not my native language.

hello guys this is my first post hope this makes sense here goes my theory i ve just read books 1 and 2 and just been reading theorys on various forums but i havent come across this one yet as such. it stuck me as i was reading eshonai's interludes when she was talking about the differences between listener/voidbringer forms that it seems to involve captured spren. she alludes that the listeners decided to denounce their gods and chose to become dull form/parshmen out of choice and this lead to a racial cleansing of all memories of other forms/songs that could turn them into servents of their gods. it stuck me as their wasnt a time reference to when this happened and my mind linked it to the stories of cities worth of spren being killed during the KR recreance. Also, there is no reference of when the parshmen were enslaved. In dalaners visions before feverstonekeep there are no parshmen around but in the time the story takes place there are everywhere in all cities/towns. i thought this was odd untill eshonais interludes. this might seem long winded and im probably joining a few other theories (sorry for any liberal plagiarism) but i beleve that after the heralds abondoned the oath pact, the KR became more fragmented as hinted in the back stories on each chapter in WOR. that the nations and orders became fractured and started in fighting. those quotes hint of trechery and whole orders turning on one another. after while they stopped functioning as a whole and abandoned Urithiru fighting off voidbringers/listeners. during this time they learnt of the braking of the oaths. (maybe from one of the heralds) and felt betrayed. During this period of time a faction of the voidbringers atuned into that song of peace of internal screaming stormform eshonia found and decided to brake form their gods. They seperated from the voidbringers forms that the now fractured KR were fighting and made a plan to turn all listeners into dullform/ parshmen. they made a plea to KR. the KR feeling betrayed and tired of fighting came together one last time to try and solve the voidbringer and a potential new desolation by forcing the spren to turn voidbringers into their dullforms/parshmen. this whole act betrayed their oaths and they caused their own bonded spren to die. Eshonai notes theire is little difference between dullform/ parshmen. Maybe the dullform/listerners where the group that choose the path to cleanse their race and stop desolations and the parshmen are the voidbringers that where forced by the KR killing whole populations of spren to change them hence their lack of intelligence compared to listeners because of the violent change compared to the listeners choice. After which mankind enslaved the parshmen. i belive the recreance might have resulted from the desperation the KR fractured and betrayed by the heralds oathbraking and attempting one final combined 10 ordered effort to stop another desolation being convinced by the listeners/parshendi.They might have thought this would be the only way as only one herald was left to fight in damnation. i belive they thought the heralds had abandoned the world and nations and would not be around to help rebuild the orders in time if another desolation came so their bonded spren scraficed themselves staying in shard/pate form for future generations to be used to defend roshar. this is why they abdoned the shards at towns/forts and cities rather than hide them so the peoples of roshar would have a chance to fight back having the heralds forsake their duty. anyway i hope this long winded theory makes sense

So here's what I found browsing the coppermind today: The Recreance was the day when all the KR abandoned their duties and spren, and the spren "broke," according to Syl. There were usually three Bondsmiths, and (at least) one of them had bonded the Stormfather, presumably. (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Bondsmiths) The Spren "broke" when they were abandoned in the Recreance. So why didn't the Stormfather "break?"

Here seems to be a rough order of noteworthy events starting from Urithiru: Urithiru is built 4500 years ago: Aharietiam, Last Desolation. End of Heraldic Epochs Start of Silver Kingdom Epoch? Urithiru is abandoned The Recreance 1173-4 years ago: start of modern calendar 500 years ago: start of Hierocracy 300 years ago: War of Loss, end of Hierocracy, Sunmaker unites Alethkar However, it's really hard to date the Recreance or what occurred at the start of the modern calendar. I've been doing some quote mining: I've looked around but not been able to find any WoB that help. It's frustrating but we don't have too many comments from expert historians or with dates. Obviously, they don't have carbon dating or the like so it's really hard for people to verify dates - with all the chaos that has occurred, how sure can anyone be of dates of events from long ago? I guess this is why a lot of characters talk about "centuries" rather than millennia. It's also frustrating that it's not entirely clear what the "Silver Kingdoms Epoch" refers to - I suspect its the prosperous period between the Last Desolation and the Recreance, but it's hard to be certain. I suspect that prior to the Recreance that many scholars were in fact Radiants. Maybe they clung to Dawnchant (or derived versions) while the main population was coming up with new languages. After the Recreance there was probably a general desire to separate from the taint of the Radiants, including culture and language. This is probably what lead to the Dawnchant falling out of use and eventually being forgotten. There's no direct references I can see to what was significant about year 0 on the calendar people use - ie what happened 1173-4 years ago. Normally, such events are chosen as something positive but boring. Given Vorin cultural dominance I think it would be something like "founding of the modern era" (as agreed to by the five Vorin kingdoms). Or it could be "founding of Alethkar". I think it would have to be something like this... or some major event none of the characters have referred to ever (which would be weird). It could even be a direct reference to the Recreance though. If that's the case then it's most likely that the Recreance was relatively close. Maybe 1200-1500 years ago, depending on exactly how much chaos/destruction occurred during the Recreance. I think this because the modern Vorin kingdoms only started after the Recreance, because the womens script only started after the Recreance and it's implied that the Hierocracy followed on from the Recreance (which wouldn't make much sense if there was a gap of 4000 years or something). Basically, they seem to be events that are naturally close together. So, maybe after the Recrenace we get something like this: firstly there's general chaos, then various things like the protoscript and male/female role divide occurring. The 5 Vorin kingdoms re-form with slightly new names and the language has moved on. I'm guessing the other kingdoms turned their back on Vorinism after the Recreance. The thing connecting the 5 Vorin kingdoms was religion and the Church becomes increasingly strong over time, eventually leading to the Hierocracy. So anyway, that's my best guess for now - I think the Recreance could be 1200-1500 years ago. It seems to be the last major event before we start getting modern dates. I used to think that the Recreance was actually closer to the Last Desolation but now I'm wondering otherwise. Szeth words seem to imply otherwise and given that the Shin seem to have stayed more or less the same since the Last Desolation maybe they would have more accurate dates? I guess we'll see.

The Recreance - why, how, and when it happened - is obviously going to play a central role in the upcoming books. We know precious little, but I would like to propose a simple (if outlandish) theory as to why it happened. The Knights Radiant could be mind-controlled by Odium. Yes, you read that correctly. I would like to propose that the Knights gave up their power to prevent Odium from taking them over en masse following the most recent Desolation. To properly motivate this idea, I need to lay out some facts: * The cause of the Recreance can be communicated simply * The cause must be sufficiently dangerous that almost all of the Knights gave up simultaneously * The spren would interpret these actions as a betrayal The first fact follows from the Diagram, and the fact that Taravangian could somehow use the secret to break up the new Knights. I take this to mean that he would announce whatever the secret is, and the Knights would be compelled in some way to give up their power. In particular, I think the Knights themselves have to decide to give up their own power. The second fact follows from the Feverstone Keep vision and the in-world Words of Radiance. This isn't a gradual event - suddenly, within a fairly short time window, all of the Knights give up their power. I take this to be an indication of the magnitude of the damage caused by the secret. The third fact follows directly from Jasnah, the Stormfather, and Pattern. How does this mind control work? We have seen on other worlds how a Shard can interact with damaged souls, and it isn't much of a leap to assume a similar thing can happen here. Knights are, by construction, damaged souls. Odium simply reaches in, granting him anything from direct control to simply changing viewpoints. There may be some restriction on this ability, some requisite hatred or similar that allows Odium to take hold. Thus, a particularly emotionless Knight might be able to resist Odium if she could properly banish emotion. The Skybreakers fit this well, but the other Orders don't generically have their control. Note Szeth's unnatural hatred towards the people he has killed and Kaladin's unhealthy hatred of lighteyes. Why at the particular time? I assume that the Heralds provide some sort of "prison" for Odium during their time in Damnation. When all ten Heralds are present, Odium has very little touch on Roshar. But with only one Herald present, his touch may be more drastic. With no other Voidbringers to control and only Talenel, sometime after the most recent Desolation would be a good opportunity for him. In this scenario, I imagine that the Heralds/Knights realize that this possible and move to destroy the Orders before Odium can act. Depending on Odium's speed, the execution referenced in Words of Radiance may in fact be one of the first of these case. Finally, the spren consider this a betrayal because Odium can only take over when the Knight fails to keep hatred away. Thus, the preemptive abandonment rather than fighting his influence goes against the First Ideal and everything the Knights stood for. In conclusion, without the other Heralds to guard him (or Voidbringers to distract him), Odium can take advantage of a emotionally susceptible Knight's broken soul to mind control her. When the Knights realized this, they abandoned their Oaths instead of fighting Odium's influence which to the spren was a betrayal. Closing thoughts - any theory for the Recreance has to account for the fact that all of the Knights gave up at once. Given what else we have seen, this seems like a sufficiently drastic scenario.

So, the Heralds are off wherever to be tortured and when they returned to Roshar, the Desolation began, after which they needed to return, lest another Desolation start up again. The nahel bond is the spren copying the way that Honor empowered the Heralds. In Dalinar's visions, we see the Radiants fighting all kinds of strange creatures that do not appear to be present on Roshar in the first two books. Is it possible that the Radiants and their bond were somehow drawing forth the very things that they were fighting against? Clearly, it wasn't a full-on desolation, but if they discovered that they, themseves, were the source of all this misery, I can see them abandoning their shards and breaking their bonds/oaths as a way to protect Roshar. Also, one of the Knights in a WoK vision mentions that anybody with the desire to fight should be compelled to come to Alethela. That sounds a lot like the Thrill, sort of. Could it be that the unmade, back in the day, was Bonded to say, a Bondsmith, and he somehow drew fighters to him in Alethela? And then after the recreance, he was "unmade," his mind broken, it now just gives off the effect of the Thrill? Just some thoughts.

This theory is a simple one. Unlike the other orders of Knights Radiant, the Skybreakers never abandoned their oaths and disbanded. They have remained active, albeit covertly, under the control of Nalan. Firstly, I want to present evidence that one of the orders of Radiants never disbanded, at least entirely. This epigraph makes it quite apparent to me that one of the orders of Radiants stuck around for quite some time. Nalan offers Szeth a place in their ranks, and Helaran was apparently attempting to join them. It seems evident to me that for whatever reason, the Skybreakers refused to abandon their Blades and their oaths to stick around. As one final piece of evidence, I'd like to look at the spren. First, I'll establish the type of spren the Skybreakers were bonded to. Given Nalan's penchant for laws and one of the divine attributes of the Skybreakers being "just" this makes me fairly certain that the highspren belong to the Skybreakers. Now, lets look at who Jasnah goes to see for information while she is in Shadesmar. Why would she go to see the highspren? While I'm sure that they are knowledgeable, would not the spren of other orders be better? Why not see the spren of the Willshapers or the Elsecallers, her own spren? They are associated with knowledge and wisdom, surely they would be better equipped? But here, Pattern provides a clue. The answer is clear. She went to the highspren because they are the only spren who survived the Recreance because the Skybreakers did not abandon their oaths. They are the only ones who were alive during the Desolations.

I wonder if one of the important Shards on Roshar might actually be named Desolation, instead of, or in addition to, Odium. In the preview chapters for WoR, there are several instances where characters (mainly Darkness) refers to Desolation coming. Not "a" desolation, not "the" desolation, but Desolation, as in a proper-noun type entity. So, maybe Odium has evolved to Desolation, ala Harmony=Ruin+Preservation? Or Desolation is another Shard in the Greater Roshar area, coming to team-up? Curious as to what everyone's thoughts are. ***** EDIT: Thanks for the feedback! I posted below (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5897-odium-or-desolation/#entry94384) with an updated theory, and updated post title from "Odium or Desolation?" to "Odium, Desolation, and Recreance"

So here is my theory about the recreance. After the Heralds abandoned the oath pact and left the people in the Radiants capable hands. '“They have the Radiants. That will be enough.”' We believe some time elapsed after the Heralds quit and the recreance happen. In that time I believe the radiants were still fighting parshendi possibly its not like they disappeared and on the day of recreance dalinar is told by his fellows that they are still at war and the knights where fighting on the front lines. Honor having found out that his heralds had quit on him he decides to take another approach and he either talks to odium and makes another deal or he and the radiants actually sit down with the parshendi. Going off of the possibility of him talking to odium, Honor makes a deal that he will die and he will end the knights radiant/ surgebinding if Odium no longer sends his desolations. Honor might either just be killed in battle by trying to do the whole duelling/choosing a warrior thing and fighting himself finally or just lets himself die maybe even in the hopes that odium would pick up his shard to change odium. Odium doesnt pick up the honor shard though. Before tanavast dies though he disbands the knights as part of the deal. He tells them to break their bonds and that doing so will end the desolations and the fighting. maybe the parshendi also agree to this and broke their bonds with the spren as well which is why they loose all their forms which would be very interesting. Then later on after the recreance in order to destroy the knights radiant reputation so that people wont follow in their ways and bring back surgebinding, vorinism, maybe led by a herald even, went in and destroyed/ altered lots of records of the knights. Doing all of this in order to prevent surgebinding from returning. Somewhere along the lines nalan is told/ or thought it up himself to stop surgebinders, and the parshendi, while they weren't told, see that surgebinding coming back is a bad sign. The parshendi even go so far as to kill their friend on the treaty night, to somehow keep their old gods from coming back. Going back to the recreance or The day the knights quit. They were a solemn bunch. There was no anger or despair that would come from just being sick and tired of fighting. Or cheering that they won the war. They just very solemnly took off their gear in sight of the people. They purposely went to the rear guard and took off their gear. This is what leads me to think someone told them to do it and to quit in a visible way. They could have gone and hidden their gear and made sure no one picked it up. They didn't though. Why ending surgebinding would correlate with the desolations I am not sure and I dont know if there is another thread about it. I am just trying to understand why tanavast died and Honor was split, and why the knights disbanded. They were all honorable and had to go through rigorous training so its not like they were of weak character and give up like the heralds. Im not saying the heralds had weak character the difference being heralds lived for a long long time while as far as we know being a surgebinder gave you abilities but you still lived a normal life and still died. Its not like they had a millennia to wear down their souls from torture. Also all of the knights were disbanded at once. It wasn't over the course of time starting with the orders that fought then the orders that did other stuff. It was all at once, or thats how dalinar has heard of it. He always refers to it as that day singular. Just not enough facts yet. Or Honor, thinking of another way, ends the knights radiant and kills himself in order to make Odium lose his enemy and will not think of the rosharians as a threat. This is quite a bit of guess work but it is just something that i have wondered about. It had sounded more... sound in my head but now that it is typed out i'm not sure if it holds together as well anymore. I was going to find quotes but I don't have the time to do that right now. So pick away or add to it. Have at it. points -Honor told the knights to disban -surgebinding correlates to desolations -parshendi are no longer a threat

Hello everyone! I've been lurking around the site for a few years now and have finally worked up the courage to post a theory! I'm not sure whether I should be posting here in the Words of Radiance Discussion, or if this is more appropriate for the general Stormlight Archive discussion...anyway, here it goes: the Parshmen/Parshendi, the betrayal Jasnah mentioned, and the Recreance, with a few speculations thrown in about why Gavilar had to die (I apologize in advance if this theory has already been covered somewhere else, but I couldn't find it all lumped together). I'll cite what I can as I go along... From the new Words of Radiance chapters available, "Once Sja-anat touches a spren, it acts strange." Words of Radiance Ch. 4 Since Odium doesn't want to over-invest himself on Roshar, it seems plausible to me that he would seek to work with or corrupt the entities already present, rather than create new races himself. Enter the Parshendi. Since their sense of identity is essentially bound to whether or not they are bonded to a spren, it makes sense that Odium's corruption of spren could cause devastating changes when one of these bonded to a Parshendi - especially if it happened en mass. I believe this was discussed here. My theory stems from a speculation about how Odium actually corrupts spren. From Syl's interactions with Kaladin during the course of Way of Kings, we see her develop a personality the more time she spends with him: "I'm...taking something from you. And giving something in return. It's the way it used to work...I'm willing to stop it...but I would go back to being as I was before...never remembering anything for longer than a few minutes. If we end it, I lose that." Way of Kings Ch. 57 Throughout their interactions, Kaladin remarks several times about how she is becoming more human. I speculate that when a spren binds to a surgebinder and becomes more human, they open themselves to Odium's influence and can be corrupted. If this is the case, Therefore, I further speculate that in order to break the cycle of Desolations, the original Radiants simultaneously broke their ties to their bonded spren. Unfortunately, this caused devastating consequences for the spren society, since many of the spren would suddenly have lost their identities/memories/purpose: "If we end it, I lose that." Way of Kings Ch. 57 Therefore, the Recreance would be This extra part is really wild speculation: This could also explain the existence of Parshmen (they gave up bonding to any spren to prevent getting a corrupt one), and maybe even why Gavilar had to die: This is pretty much just bits and pieces stuck together with wild speculation glue (and that last part is all wild speculation), so feel free to comment/tear it apart! Also, I'm not quite sure how to format quotes or add spoiler tags (or even if this section uses spoiler tags). Please let me know so I can fix it!

First off, much credit to vikorr! He is the person who set this off in my brain case. Second off, if this has been said before, then I'm sorry! And finally... the theory! Alright, ladies and gentlemen. The main of my theory lies on the principle that a spren bond has to do largely with your cognitive aspect. Which is not only decided by how you view yourself, but how others view you. In the Emperor's Soul, Shai tells us, It is important to know that when Shai describes the Cognitive Realm, she says that the way an object is viewed before she says and how it views itself. Which brings us to our next point. When Syl is talking about what Kaladin used to be, and why she followed him, she says, A large part of the reason that Syl joined with Kaladin was because that others saw him as upholding his honor. Even when he was a wretch, he still held some of that respect. Now, onto the recreance. There are two death rattles that are particularly significant: Emphasis on the love. In it's absence, the bond dissolves (which relies on the conjecture we get, finally, by moving onto Feverstone Keep). From <WoR Spoilers!> We know that many spren died in this event. They died because not only did the knights Radiant forsake their vows, the people of Feverstone Keep visibly saw it as a betrayal. They had thought of the Knights Radiant as enemies and traitors, and were prepared to fight for their lives. So... Tadaa! In culmination: A massive part of the nahel bond is having an honorable cognitive aspect, which is largely determined by how others view you.

I almost hesitate to call this a full-fledged theory, so instead we'll go with theoretical musing. Main idea: The disbanding of the Knights Radiant is the betrayal spoke of by the spren. This caused the "death" of their corresponding Nahel spren. In the new material released, we learn from Shallan's perspective that mankind betrayed the spren in ancient times. This causes the spren to be hesitant around Jasnah, and some number of spren may have died in the process. Such an event would very likely have a physical-world component, and based on the way Jasnah describes it the event must have been catastrophic. We then consider several such events that may be construed as betrayal: 1) The Heralds abandoning the Oathpact: I find this unlikely since there has been no evidence that the Heralds have any dependent relationship with the spren, espescially at the moment that they walked away. 2) The Knights Radiant disband: This is by far my favorite option because it explains the notion of "death." If we use the definition that spren are living ideas, then to abandon an idea and start acting against it would be its "death." In this case, I find it likely that the betrayal coincides with the Knights abandoning their oaths. However, if the Knights Radiant really did begin to slip before their downfall, it could have been a slow process. We now have a better understanding of the relationship of spren and sentient beings - the latter provide concepts that the spren use to forge their world. Since the Knights Radiant must truly believe in what they are doing and their actions must reflect that, one could only guess at the destruction caused by a huge number of people all giving up at the same time. We note that even Syl talked to Kaladin about giving up their bond and its effect on her. There is a counterargument here, in that the spren would likely have known that Surgebinding can cause a Desolation (in some way that has yet to be revealed). The Knights may have been pushed to step down (from the Heralds, spren or both) but the spren would have known and approved ahead of time. 3) The corruption of Vorin theology: This one is a little out on a limb, but it can be cast as a betrayal and we have not discussed this as much. I personally like the idea that the Sunmaker changed Vorin theology, and my claim is that Old Vorinism was correct. When mankind goes from one belief system to a slightly different one, this would cause all sorts of changes in the Cognitive realm. This could be construed by the spren as being a mighty betrayal to what is true. Finally, what does it mean for an idea to die? Ideas don't "die" in the sense that they cease to exist, but they can be abandoned by people and ignored. I claim this is the state Kaladin fould Syl in originally - a vauge notion of being honorable without any real personality or memories. Syl was bonded to one of the Knights that forake her oaths, causing Syl to lose everything that distinguished her, i. e. is effectively dead. What about Wyndle? Some of his quotes support the idea that there is a processs spren undergo to become bonding spren, which involves manifesting partially in the Physical realm and losing memories. However, I think he is a new bonding spren, as opposed to Syl who had done the job before. As such, we cannot use his quotes to explain Syl's state when Kaladin first started meeting her. In conclusion, I claim that the Knights Radiant breaking their oaths and giving up on their Ideals is the betrayal spoken about by the spren which led to the "death" of many active bonding spren.