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I’m going to sketch out this theory and maybe get around to providing quotes and stuff to substantiate it later. And I don’t love time travel mechanics. Just too messy. So I’m not thrilled with where the evidence is leading me. But a couple of thoughts, all paraphrased: * Cultivation to TOdium: “you’ve been on this path for a long time” - ie before you asked for a boon from me - “I just tried to help you learn to wield the power with honor.” This is in response to TOdium shocked that she would try something so audacious like putting him in position to because Odium - which would absolutely include the Diagram. In other words, the Diagram was NOT part of her boon+curse. I take this to be explicit in the text - that T’s path to TOdium-hood started long before Cultivation got involved directly, and that that path kicked off with the Diagram * Speaking of the Diagram, Taravangian: “thinking that the Diagram was about anything more than saving Kharbranth was dangerous.” Dangerous why? I think we know the answer especially when we reach T’s last days: “he cried over the lies [about trying to make utilitarian sacrifices to save a seed of humanity] he told Dalinar - because the truth was much more shameful”. Yeah the truth - namely that you were doing all this with the goal of usurping Odium - is pretty shameful. Finally, there’s that moment that I’m struggling to recall in detail where he says “you don’t understand, Odium sets things up so that if he loses, he still wins.” Does that sound like the Odium we know? L O L. Our Odium loses without winning left and right. Our Odium is almost a beautiful loser: he prioritizes sending a message about doing things his way over actually winning. (This was during his last conversation with Dalinar.) You know who sets things up so that if he loses, he wins? In fact you might say “the only way to agree to a deal is to make sure that no matter the outcome you are satisfied”? That level of craftiness I’ve only seen from T - especially as TOdium, when he makes fun of Odium’s foolishness and says this! One more related piece of evidence: the epigraphs in WoR: ”You must become King. Of Everything.” 1) Taravangian was still able to achieve his primary goal without being king of more than Jah Keved 2) Everything contains quite a bit more than Roshar! But it is consistent with trying to save the entire Cosmere from incompetent shards, and waging a “war for everything”. “You must destroy the Parshendi if this one starts to explore their powers it will form a bridge” Why destroy the Parshendi if they might form a bridge between the Singers and the Listeners? That would be bad for Odium if he loses the Singers as an ally! But it would be GOOD for TOdium who clearly does not want whatever is happening between Leshwi, Venli, Thude, Rlain (+Renarin perhaps), Sja-Anat, and their associated followers - very bridge-like. At a minimum, the Diagram contains information about Odium with Taravangian as the vessel. But I would go so far as to say that the Diagram was a vision Taravangian got of himself - not Rayse Odium - from the future, and that Cultivation was certainly not involved.

I just posted this to my Youtube channel, but I figured I'd type this up fully here, maybe additionally clarify some of the points TL;DR at the bottom The central question of this theory: Where did the Thrill originally come from, was it truly of Odium in the very beginning? My theory is that Nergaoul was actually a splinter of Ambition to start with and Odium Unmade the Thrill into what it is today on Roshar. The Thrill is characterized as a red mist, so The Threnody system So we know that Odium mortally sliced and diced Ambition while in the Threnody system (and also Mercy was there doing who knows what). Chunks of Ambition rained down, and something arose from the ashes: The Evil. The Evil was described by Nazh as "a creeping darkness, a terrible force that consumed the entirety of the continent, feasting upon the souls of men." Khriss also states that she does "not know how much of this is metaphoric, and how much literal." I think this was mostly metaphorical. Being a Splinter of Ambition, I think the Evil entered the hearts of men and inflamed their ambitious desires to the utmost, similarly to what the Thrill does with battle rage or Ashtermarn with gluttony. This "devoured their souls" by inciting them to pursue their greatest ambitions to the loss of all else. Thus, the continent was consumed by madness and those strangely unaffected fled to the smaller, shade-filled continent. Then, I think Odium came back. He had just dispatched Ambition and was inspecting the scene of the crime just to double check there aren't any powerful splinters that could rise up and gather up Ambition's power again. And on Threnody, he finds a new toy. Odium corrupts the Thrill, through the process of Unmaking and this fundamentally changes the nature of the Thrill into something similar, but different. Now, the main objection that I see to this theory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e1672 How does this fit with the theory? Well, primarily, I think this could tell us about the nature of Unmaking. This form of corruption has to fundamentally change the nature of the Splinter such that it is either A: a Splinter of both Shards, or B: A Splinter completely of Odium through a process of substitution, where Odium's investiture replaces Ambition's, but still retaining the vague shape of what the thing is. I think the first is the most likely, but I have been unable to find if this question has been asked before about the nature of Unmaking. TL;DR The Thrill was originally a splinter of Ambition called the Evil, Odium saw a new toy, Unmade it into a Splinter of Odium, and then tossed it onto Roshar for it to go buck wild.

Hello. I am concerned about those Listener Shanay-Im in RoW. Yes, there is a happy ending. However, in Oathbringer, that Fused named Turash disrespected Odium about Dalinar, and Odium threaten to remove his Investure on Turash, sending him to the beyond. What is stopping Todium from just killing all the Heavenly One Listeners by just removing his Investure, sending them to the Beyond?

So, Cultivation, posing as the Nightwatcher, "blessed" Taravangian with the ability to 1: partially outthink Rayse. 2: bear Odium. What if Cultivation is still in control over Taravangian's smart/emotional days? Could she make him suddenly intelligent for a few days, thereby removing his Connection to the Shard of Odium? This would be a great failsafe for Cultivation if Taravodium's plans run, well, contrary to her own. Taravodium will likely consider this and attempt to remove his Connection to Cultivation, but it's possible this would make him revert to his original, pre- Nightwatcher visit personality and severe him from Odium anyway. In any case, I believe Cultivation's plans stretch much further than we might have thought.

*R.O.W. AND GREATER COSMERE SPOILERS/THEORY* So, in Oathbringer at the battle of Thaylen City, when Dalinar says “I am Unity” and opens Honor’s perpendicularity, Odium responds with “We Killed You!”. The popular theory seems to be that this is evidence of the division growing between the power-Odium- and the man who holds the shard-Rayse. After a 4th reread of Oathbringer and R.O.W., I now believe this to be what we will one day see as an obvious hint that Cultivation helped Odium kill Honor in an effort to one day unite not two shards as harmony has done, but all three of the shards of the Rosharan system and quite possibly begin the reforming of all 16 shards back into Adonalsium. My reasons are as follows; First, why I don’t believe “We Killed You” was talking about Odium/Rayse is discussed in the Mistborn series and Arcanum Unbounded. It’s stated multiple times that the man who took up the shard Ruin, Ati, was very different than the power he took up. Hoid goes as far as to say he was “a kind and generous man” before ascension. We know by the end he was much more the power than the man, as eluded to when kelsier says Ruin “dangles a puppet” towards Vin when he talks to her. This would imply that once the person who ascended loses control of the power it is not a “We” relationship but a complete shift in who controls who. Before they lose control of the power the person who holds the shard never says “We” because they don’t view holding the power as a symbiotic relationship but as an expansion of themself and it seems once the balance of power is tipped in favor of the power itself, the person who ascended loses complete control. Now on to why Cultivation helped kill Honor. When Sja-anat comes to Taravangian, the time he asks her to give him a way to summon Odium at a specific time, she says that perhaps Cultivation has been planning much more subtly than Odium ever suspected. Also stating that Cultivation had touched/changed three people. These people are Lyft, Dalinar, and Taravangian. As of the end of Rhythm of War, we know Taravangian has ascended to the shard Odium, and Dalinar has at-least begun to take up the remnants of the shard Honor. We know Lyft was altered to run her surge-binding on Life-Light, theoretically making her have a stronger connection to the power of cultivation than any other person on Roshar. At the end of that book we also see Cultivation come to T-Odium saying that there is much they need to discuss. Prior to to Taravangian’s ascension we hear Odium say to Dalinar, when agreeing to the contest of champions, that Cultivation would kill him if he broke his oaths, implying she already has or had the intent to kill a shard. The reason I believe she intends to unite the shards is two part. One part is a simple word drop. After Taravangian becomes Odium, Cultivation says that she believed he could “hold the shard of Odium with ‘honor’”. The other is slightly more esoteric. What have we seen so far of different unshattered shards and their intent and how it relates to the aspect of adonalsium they embody? To my knowledge, they coincide rather directly. Preservation? Preserve at all cost. Ruin? Entropy at all cost. So why would Cultivation seek to kill anything? Well I think it’s obvious. She told us exactly what she’s doing. The same thing she did to Dalinar. She’s not killing, she pruning. She helped shatter Honors power because it was her dandelion. She blew on the flower and flung seeds of Honor’s power across Roshar because she knew that neither she nor Honor could defeat Odium. But if he could be delayed, the powers transferred into imperfect vessel, Dalinar with his ties to Odium while trying to hold Honors power, Taravangian holding Odium’s Shard with his ties to Cultivation. And Lyft. A radiant-Honor-, who runs on LifeLight-Cultivation, and I believe Stormlight 5 will bring us Odium’s attempted corruption of Lyft, beginning with Moash/Burr’s murder of her fellow edgedancer at the end of R.O.W. and possibly concluding with the death of Gawx, The Prime, in the next book. Big theory with wild swings I know, but let me know if you guys know anything that directly contradicts any of this

Rhythm of War spoilers ahead! Do not read unless you have finished it. If someone has already posted this, or if it's intuitively obvious, sorry. This is from RoW, Chapter 8: And this is from Chapter 111: These quotes show me that somehow, Odium has the power to suppress, or take away altogether, emotion. I'm sure it has similar mechanics to Soothing with Allomancy, but on a much larger level. But then there's this death rattle that makes me think there's something else: This death rattle implies that the Unmade Dai-Gonarthis, a.k.a The Black Fisher, also somehow has the ability to suppress or take away emotion. And because the Unmade serve Odium, this makes me think: What if the "gift" that Moash speaks of isn't directly from Odium? What if, instead, Dai-Gonarthis is the source of this ability to remove emotion, and Odium somehow delivers the power to Moash? This is something that has always seemed to fit for me. My theory is that Dai-Gonarthis is the source of Odium's ability to take away emotion. The one problem with this theory is that because Odium is the god of passion, it would make sense for him to have this ability himself, meaning that Dai-Gonarthis may have similar powers, but isn't necessarily behind Moash's emotionlessness. What do you think? What problems are with this theory? Was this already obvious? Tell me below!

Odium is hatred incarnate. Odium is passion. Odium is fervor, rage, divine wrath. And it's also unfathomable power, the power of a god. It's not going away. One way or another, odium is gonna be around at the end of the series. Now, there are of course a few ways you can make that fact less of a problem. The first is, of course, shattering Odium, like honor was shattered. I could certainly see that being the way this ends up being resolved. But there's another way to resolve this problem, too, and imo this resolution is a better fit for the themes of the stormlight archive. Someone takes up Odium who will channel it toward something good. Hatred and rage aren't inherently bad things. We like to think that hate is bad and love is good but in reality it's just not that simple. Love can cause you to excuse and overlook things you really shouldn't. To put up with abuse. And on the other hand, hatred can be justified. Sometimes, people do things that truly deserve to be hated, that the victim simply can't forgive them for. And sometimes, systems are built on the backs of people for whom hatred is a completely logical response. Systems like slavery, and dictatorships, and racism. And not even just hatred for the people on top of those systems (though not not for that either), but also for the systems themselves and the conditions that led to their creation. Odium can be channeled for good; for giving Passion to the downtrodden and oppressed. A force for change, a fuel to the fire within. Personally, I think someone taking up the power to use it for this purpose would be a more fitting resolution than simply shattering the power. Cause stormlight archive is a story about a war against odium, yes, but it's also a story about oppressive systems and the horrors they create. Shattering Odium may be a thematic ending to the first of these, but not to the second. Now, onto the question I know a lot of you have: Moash??? Yes, moash. Now, big disclaimer: This is something I'd expect to see at the end of his character arc (at least within this series- if he becomes a shard, we'll presumably be seeing him afterwards) which means he is absolutely not there yet. If he took up odium right now, it would not go well. But we still have one to six more books for him to evolve and grow. I see this coming after a long redemption arc. Stormlight is a series all about redemption and second chances, afterall. Right now, he's a character consumed by hatred, but I think a much more interesting resolution than learning to let go of that hatred is learning to channel it for something good. Cause honestly, he has all that hatred for a very good reason. And I think that Moash taking up Odium could be the force for change that roshar desparately needs. Now, there are other characters who could fill in this role as well. Chief among them, Kaladin. Kaladin has had very similar feelings as moash- they are narrative foils after all- and has every reason to personally hate oppression. He's currently in a much better emotional position to be able to do good with the power of odium than moash currently is. And at the end of Rhythm of War, we saw his eyes turn golden as he attacked the Pursuer, which is clearly setting up something, some kind of connection to odium, which means he might be in a good position to be able to take it up since you do have to be aligned with a shard in order to really hold onto it. I'll be honest, if Sanderson does go down the path of having someone take up Odium as a force for change, I fully expect it to be Kal. But I'm a moash girlie and in my heart of hearts I want it to be him, so here's my flimsy justification for why it should be. Kaladin's character arc has been more about leaving behind his hatred, and moving toward protecting people. Basically, he's been moving away from the parts of himself that are aligned with odium, while Moash has been running full force into them. And right now of course, that's really not going so well for himself or anyone around him. For Kaladin to be "odious" enough, his character would have to go backwards from where he is now to get him in a mental state more similar to the first book, whereas Moash could make forward progression and become a better person while still holding onto the odiousness that he has now. TL;DR Having someone take up Odium and channel the power to be a force for social change would be a good resolution to multiple plots, themes, and problems presented by the books, and moash's arc could take him to where he'd be in a good position to be that person.

In order to pick up a Shard once its previous owner has either been killed or has released it, you need be congruent enough with the power for it to let you pick it up. So, if a Rioter Misting or a Mistborn were to enhance your emotions while the Shard of Odium was without a vessel, would that be enough to trick it into letting you pick it up?

Cultivation doesn't have a goal or an endgame. She wants to guide everyone and everything to be the best version of themselves. What does "best" mean here? Whatever the subject thinks it does. The alethi (as a group) think the best version of themselves have to be the best warriors. Taravangian thinks his best version is to have the capacity to stop what is coming. His stated goal is not to stop it....just to have the capacity to do so. Seems to me that the vessel of Odium has the capacity to stop what odium is doing. He's new, and the shardic intent won't begin to consume him for centuries, maybe millenia. And yet. Will he stop it? Taravangian's arc is over. Taravangian got what he wanted. TOdium's arc has just begun and we have no idea what He will do next.

Theory: After Ambition was wounded in the Threnodite System by Odium and Mercy, she fled to another point in space. This point either was, or became, the Rosharan system. Here, Ambition was killed. Her death created the Barrier Storm in the Cognitive Realm around the planet Braize. This storm was later Invested by Odium to create the proto-Everstorm that was pulled through into the Physical on Roshar at the Battle of Narak. Ambition's death also created a wound in the Spiritual Realm in the Rosharan System similar to that which exists on Threnody. This is the reason there are spren on Roshar. Datapoints: I group this into two categories, Spren and Storms. SPREN: From Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell, we know that the wounding of Ambition in the Threnodite System created Shades: cognitive beings which manifest in the Physical Realm. We do not see similar manifestations in the Mistborn novels or the White Sand graphic novels. We know there are no Splintered Shards in the Scadrian or Taldain systems at the time these stories are set. We see similar manifestations in Elantris and Emperor's Soul (Seons and Skaze). We know there are Splintered Shards in the Selish system at this time. We see similar manifestations in The Stormlight Archive (spren on Roshar) (and voidspren on Braize). STORMS: From Khriss's statements in Arcanum Unbounded, we know that the Dor around Sel is a whorl of free Investiture created when Odium Splintered Dominion and Devotion there. From statements from Nazh and Hoid, we know that travel to/from Sel through the Cognitive Realm is very difficult and dangerous due to the presence there of the Dor. From statements by Nazh, we know that that travel to/from Braize through the Cognitive Realm was difficult due to the presence of this Barrier Storm. A possible chronology: 1) The Shattering of Adonalsium. 2) Odium and Mercy clash with Ambition in the Threnodite System. Ambition is wounded. 3) Odium (and possibly others) clash with Ambition in the Rosharan system. Ambition is killed, creating the Barrier Storm, and spren. 4) Odium goes to the Selish system. He clashes with Dominion and Devotion. They are both killed, creating the Dor. 5) Odium returns to the Rosharan system, and begins whispering in the ears of the Ashynites. 6) The Ashynites devastate their planet using Dawnshards. They are taken in as refugees by Honor and Cultivation on Roshar. Their God, Odium, comes with them. 7) Honor, Cultivation, and Odium make a deal that they think will allow them to live in harmony on Roshar. This is the Oathpact. 8) Odium intentionally goes against the Oathpact, triggering its punishment prohibitions. He is exiled to Braize, on the far side of the Barrier Storm. The cycle of Desolations begins. 9) Honor is Splintered. 10) Honor's Cognitive Shadow is bound to the spren of the Highstorm. 11) Several millennia pass. 12) Odium invests a not-insignificant amount of Investiture into the Barrier Storm, creating the proto-Everstorm in the Cognitive Realm. This process takes several centuries. 13) Finally, the Everstorm is pulled through into the Physical Realm on Roshar, creating a direct passage between Braize and Roshar. Questions: A] Why is this wrong? B] Were other Shards involved in the death of Ambition? Did Mercy join Odium for the final clash? Did Ambition? Did Endowment (who we know is relatively new to the Nalthian system)? Indeed... were Honor and/or Cultivation in on the kill? C] Did the death of Aona and Skai occur before the initial conflict with Uli Da in the Threnodite system; after this initial conflict but before the final conflict in the Rosharan system; or after the Rosharan conflict? D] When on this timeline did Honor and/or Cultivation arrive on Roshar? E] When was Odium's first contact with the humans on Ashyn?

Brandon has stated in the past that a Shard's intent is filtered through the vessel, and the vessel can have an effect on how the Shard's intent is portrayed. My idea is that Honor's broad intent, without the filtering by Tanavast is that it wants to form Connections. We can see this in Surgebinding (an art which, while being of both Honor and Cultivation, seems to be mostly Honor) is initiated by forming a Nahel bond. I also remember hearing somewhere (although I don't remember where) that because Honor violated the pact the Shards made not to settle on the same world, that they mustn't have been clearly defined well enough. This seems to imply that Honor at least follows oaths and Connections by nature of its intent. If this is true, then I think it is a reasonable assumption that Odium, without the filtering by Rayse, is about severing Connections. If these both apply then I think that the method of initiation to becoming a Voidbinder requires you to severe a Connection of somekind. We also know that Voidbinding is usually related to the Unmade, so you might be able to come up with a more detailed theory including that. Note, I do not think that you necessarily have to break Radiant Ideals or severe a Nahel bond to become a Voidbinder, just that it requires some Connection to be broken.

I've been thinking about how Szeth's oaths may play out in SA5; and some possible ways his narratives may come together, especially given that Szeth will be the flashback character in SA5. Here's our oaths to start as a reminder: I'm interested to see if Dalinar looses the contest of champions then how does Szeth's future play out in light of his Third Ideal? Does he become an agent of Odium by proxy of Dalinar's will? Does he break his oath to follow Dalinar consequently killing his (mysterious) Highspren? Does he say his Fifth Ideal, circumventing his Third Ideal? Or does Dalinar have the power of will to release Szeth from his Third Ideal without breaking it? What ever happens I think we will see a conflict for Szeth brought to light as we learn his backstory, particularly with that caveat in his Fourth Ideal: "So long as Dalinar Kholin agrees"... and it's going to be GOOD READING! Bonus theory: Imagine if Szeth-Nightblood are tricked/convinced into being (T)Odium's champion...? (T)Odium guy has so much emotional leverage over Szeth already, I can see him giving it a go... especially if Taravagian uses the advantage of no one knowing of his ascension to his advantage. Szeth has his Fifth Ideal as a nice little get out of my Third Ideal card to draw too! By the Almighties Tenth Name that would be a terrifying scenario for Dalinar, et., al! Nice knowing you team!

Just occurred to me why Cultivation might prefer Taravangian to be Odium ... if he is bound by his oath to protect Kharbranth & its people, then he can't destroy Roshar (since destroying the planet would kill the people of Kharbranth). If Cultivation cares more about Roshar than the cosmere in general, she might see Taravangian-Odium free and wrecking other worlds but Roshar alive as preferable to Rayse-Odium destroying Roshar but still being trapped.

I've been re-reading the Stormlight books and have been thinking about specific events along with the current conflict raging during the Last Desolation as well as the overarching conflicts across the Cosmere. It seems likely to me, though not definitive, that Odium is more or less a permanent problem. Certainly Rayse was (so far) unique in being both able and willing to destroy other Shards whether or not he required help to do so. That motivation may have been unique to Rayse, but his time holding Odium could also have driven that course of action even if Rayse was already amenable. Either way, even with the change in Vessel to Taravangian Odium is still very dangerous and potentially hostile to the other Shards. Harmony strongly implies this in the epigraphs to chapters 37, 39, and 40 of RoW: If we take these sentiments to be true (which may not be wise, as Harmony is new to the deity scene, though his holding two Shards may give him unique insight) then it's not unreasonable to conclude that the goal outlined in the epigraph of chapter 34 of RoW is driven by Odium itself and not so much the Vessel bearing it: So whatever changes might exist when Taravangian destroyed Rayse and became the new Vessel of Odium it seems like the threat to the Cosmere is unchanged, and therefore so are Hoid's efforts and the situation for the other Shards. Odium is deific, and so far we don't know of any other Shards which are capable of Splintering (or otherwise destroying) a Shard. At some point Odium became trapped on Roshar, and while that was a good-enough solution for several millennia it clearly isn't permanent. Permanence in resolving this danger seems important for otherwise (mostly) immortal beings like the other Shards. For these reasons the current plan of Dalinar and company is doomed to fail. Their victory in the contest of champions, if it even takes place, will only push Odium's efforts into the future to some unknowable extent. And the wording of the agreement is unclear as to what, precisely, will happen if Odium's champion loses. Therefore any conclusion to Odium as an antagonist, whether in Stormlight alone or in all of the Cosmere works, cannot be: 1. the contest of champions, 2. changing Odium's Vessel, 3. destroying Odium, or 4. persuading Odium to behave differently. So that leaves the question "what is to be done about it?" And here is my answer: the only way to deal with Odium is to combine it with another Shard, thereby modifying how it operates. Such a combination has seriously hampered Harmony's ability to act on his own, for example. The discovery of the titular Rhythm of War implies that the combination of Honor and Odium might work and be worthwhile; Odium and Cultivation would presumably also work and be locally available to the Rosharans, but seems (to me) more dangerous than Honor/Odium and would require two possibly unwilling Vessels be dealt with. I presume that Vessels don't typically want to combine their own Shard with others for the same reason Odium doesn't want to, that it would change the raw expression of the original, fundamentally distinct Shard. My specific prediction is that Dalinar will use his powers to reconstitute Honor's Shard somehow, foreshadowed by his ability to open Honor's Perpendicularity and Odium's response: If Honor can be reassembled, then it could (perhaps) be imposed upon Taravangian or Taravangian himself destroyed and Odium taken up by anyone that also takes up Honor. Maybe Dalinar, maybe Kaladin, or maybe someone we don't know about yet. The specific person that does it would be less important than the idea that instead of unbridled hatred running around we would have honorable hatred (whatever that might be). It's not necessarily an end to any threat from Odium at all but is the only way I can think of that might deal with the Shard in any meaningful way. I don't know if this will happen in Stormlight 5, in Stormlight 6-10, in a different Cosmere work, or at all (obviosuly, lol!). My money's on sooner rather than later, as I imagine the ultimate villain(s) of the Cosmere will be Autonomy, Thaidakar, Hoid, or some combination of them rather than Odium, the major confluence of Cosmere events will involve a lot of things happening on Roshar, and the ultimate conclusion will be a re-forging of Adonalsium anyways. But that's an entirely different kettle of wild speculation.

There are limitations on how much one can edit about themselves via Awakening due to Endowment's Intent. However, you can fuel a magic system with another Shard's power. So, if you were to use Odium's Investiture to fuel Self-Awakening, you likely could change a lot more about yourself since Odium's Intent seems to be the opposite of Endowment's Intent; Odium is about caring about one's own self while Endowment is about giving to others. We even see this with the Fused as they cannot seem to do as much as Radiants when it comes to something that doesn't involve themselves.

There's been a few "sorting the shards into quadrants" "sorting the shards into quadrants and trying to find matching Dawnshards" and similar posts recently, and while I absolutely love reading those, this post is here for less linear thoughts about Adonalsium and the missing shards, but missing shards nonetheless. Let's stop with the preambling and get to what I want to get to: ODIUM and what it means for ADONALSIUM. Let's start by looking at one of the (imho) coolest quote of all the cosmere: Emphasis mine. Source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance/Epigraphs#Chapter_71. Refresher: this is from one of the letters in reply to Hoid, so probably from either a shard or another old, cosmere-aware figure like Frost. So, for the sake of argument, let's assume what they write can be treated as fact. This quote has stuck with me, among others because it makes Odium such an interesting foe and such a cool idea: The hatred of a God, without all the rest of God. I want to talk about this quote some more. Let's reiterate three things: 1. Adonalisum was shattered into 16 pieces. As far as we know, there's no Debris or anything like that left. They're 16 pieces of a whole. Those could have been split up differently, but weren't. It's not a little god with 1/16th of all of Adonalsiums properties, but with ALL of 1 of 16 properties (or 2, in Harmonys case). 2. Rayse Odium calls himself Passion and sais that that's what they are. Passion. Emotion. He even tells Dalinar that he's the only one of the gods that understands human emotion, that knows it. 3. Despite this, everyone else more or less agrees that Odium is first and foremost Hatred. The way he is described in text and in universe is as seething, hating, hot and burning and hateful. Now, what am I trying to say: What does this mean for Adonalsium? Well, one of multiple things. That depends on what the last two shards are. We know almost nothing about Adonalsium, yet, sadly. But here's my thoughts, which I hope to make understandable: I really hope atleast one of the last two shards is an emotion. Something like "Love" is a common guess, but even just something like "Care" or "Charity" (which the ancient greeks would argue was one of multiple forms of love anyway). Seriously. Because if there isn't another Emotion-Shard, then Rayse/Passion is right. In that it isn't just Hate, but all emotions/passions. Or rather, all the emotions/passions Adonalsium was capable of. It's why I refer to it as Passion in the title of this post. Let's look at the quote about it again: Virtues. Not "other emotions." Now, we can argue that Virtues are an emotional thing, but I think the semantics are clear. The letter doesn't say "without the other emotions." or, the very clear thing many religions irl share: "His Love" There's a few conclusion to be drawn from this, and I will list those in a second, but I want to first look at the shards again to underline this. Virtues: Honor, Autonomy, Ambition, Mercy, Valor, (Wisdom, Prudence) Divine Properties: Endowment, Dominion, Devotion, maybe Cultivation? Forces of Creation/Nature: Preservation, Ruin, maybe Cultivation? Uh, no idea: Whimsy, Invention. To be clear: This isn't supposed to be a sorting or anything like that. I don't think this is how the shards are grouped or even if they are grouped. The point of this list is to drive home the point that none of these are emotions. There sure are some Virtues, especially Honor and Mercy and Wisdom stand out as ones that sound like they would give Odium much needed context. But, again, none of these are emotions. (Is bravery an emotion? I wouldn't say so. Semantics, maybe) This leads me to a few possible conclusions: 1: One of the two so far unknown shards is also about emotions. Especially "Love" or one of its derivatives would of course fit a God the way we on earth imagine it well, and would make a good counter to Odium. I know there aren't clear pairs, but another shard of emotion would mean Adonalsium had atleast two different distinct emotions or emotional states. Because otherwise... 2a: (Odium is the only Emotion Shard and Rayse is lying about Odium = Passion) Adonalsium was a deeply hateful being. If it was shattered into 16 Aspects of its being, and only one of them is emotion, and that is pure Odium, Adonalsium must have been hateful in the same fulfilling, allencompassing way that Odium is. If Odium is "Just Adonalsiums Hatred without The Rest" and none of "The Rest" are emotions, then Adonalsium felt basically the same way that Odium does. Hate with a hint of Anger for a rare change. Even the better version of this isn't much better: 2b: (Odium is the only Emotion Shard and Rayse is right about Odium = Passion) Adonalsium was a deeply hateful being anyway. If Odium is the only emotion shard, and is not "God's own Divine Hatred" but rather "God's own Divine complex emotions", then well, Adonalsiums complex emotions must still have been hugely dominated by Hate. 3: Odium is all emotion that Adonalsium could feel and just got the way it is after the Shattering. Maybe "God's Divine Passions/Emotions" is up to interpretation the way Ruin could be slow decay or active Catastrophes, and it got interpreted into Odium. Then again, it sounds like Odium went on his killing spree pretty quickly after the Shattering, so it's not like he started out loving and jolly and became bitter and hateful with lots of time. (4: Adonalisum wasn't a being in the same way that we humans are, its/their emotional state is not really understandable with human understanding of emotion. We don't even know if Adonalsium had a person/vessel/personality/anything, for all we know it could have been a machine or mechanism or a force of nature more than an entity. Does a poisonous plant feel hate when it kills you for eating it? Does a storm, or a robot that was tasked to protect something when it hurts those that try to interfere with its task? Maybe Adonalsium didn't feel much, so much of what it was was Creation, and to argue about Adonalsiums Emotional landscape is futile? The only things we can assume to know are that It experienced bravery, it showed mercy, it cultivated, preserved, and destroyed things, it dominated and was devoted, it invented, it was whimsical, it wanted to survive, it was ambitious, it was autonomous, it endowed things, and: It felt Hate/it hated.) I personally hope for the former for the sake of our heroes and everyone in the cosmere, but let's continue the thoughts based on 2a and 2b for now, because there's some thought that might make these ones more likely. Whether or not Rayse was right is kind of irrelevant. Whether or not Adonalsium felt only Odium or Passion, if that 16th of Adonalsium that was/is Passion was the way back then it is now, well, Adonalsiums emotional landscape was a bad one. Even with the "context", as in "the virtues that gave it context", it doesn't paint the nices picture of the Cosmere's old God. If it's Wisdom keeping Adonalsiums Hate in check then that sounds like they came to the conclusions it's not smart to destroy everything. If it's Honor, then Adonalsiums is sparing lives because of some Oaths or feeling of duty. Cool, I guess. Not kindness, though. Mercy is the biggest candidate for a counterweight, but that to me has bully-vibes still. "I want to kill you tbh but I'm sparing you because I'm so mercyfull" isn't exactly kind either, is it? If that's what Adonalsium was right, then no wonder that a group of people came to conclusion it had to be destroyed. (And if Rayse was an evil leaning person before the Shattering, then no wonder he wanted that Shard in particular. Sounds like one of the few they'd be sure to exist afterwards.) Long, long post. If you read this far, thanks for sticking with it. I'm intrigued if other people thing my argument is conclusive at all, an what your thoughts about this are. Will we get another Emotion Shard? Will we not, and Adonalsium was very hateful? Is it futile to imagine Adonalsiums Emotions the way neurotypical Human Emotions work? Or another possible answer?

Welcome one and all, as I invoke the most potent of muses: half-baked rambling! Part one: Ground work It's probably for the best if I lay down some basic premises that I'm working from for clarity. Premise one: all arcana found on Roshar are, at their root, emanations of the Surges. Surgebinding, Voidbinding, fabrials, the "even more esoteric" system that Khriss theorises in the Roshar essay, the powers of the Unmade, the forms of the singers and whatever else there might be. The possible exception is the Old Magic, which Brandon himself has called its own weird thing. Premise two: Odium is fully capable of granting access to all ten Surges, the lack of Adhesion Fused is deliberate on Rayse's part. It makes more sense to me that he'd just copy/access the existing framework of Surgebinding, rather than building his own, separate 9/10 of Surgebinding. Premise three: there are Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of every Surge, as well as "Radiant" and "Voidish" expressions of the same. Part two: What was Rayse afraid of? What do mean by that? Under my interpretation, Rayse deliberately withheld Adhesion from the Fused, which seems odd. Why would he want his servants to only have access to nine of the Surges? Are Bondsmiths not proof that Adhesion can be an incredible boon to your forces? Even if they don't have access to the level of power of a Radiant Bondsmith, they should still have access to the same Adhesion abilities, just weaker. Having a couple of Fused who could act as walking batteries for the extremely Light-hungy Nex-im, for instance, feels like a great force multiplier. We can also infer that Odium can grant access to Adhesion, as a limited expression of it is the simplest explanation for the abilities of envoyform, making the lack of Adhesion Fused even more glaring. You might at this point be wondering why I claim that Rayse was afraid of something, only to blather about why it's weird that there are no Adhesion Fused instead. Worry not, I'll get to that. So, what do we know of Rayse's goals? Rayse wants to be the top dog in the cosmere and he wants to remain Odium. Rayse wants to be free to go on his murder rampage, so he does not want to Invest Odium anywhere, so as to not anchor him to a system. We can even track a possible modus operandi, as the Unmade are implied to have been something else in the past and several Voidspren show the telltale red of corrupted Investiture, which suggests to me that Rayse would typically twist existing things to serve him, rather than creating those things himself. We can also see this in his actions as tempter on Ashyn and his goal to make Rosharan humanity his army, after the cycle of Desolations has toughened them up enough. We also know that prior to the False Desolation and related events Roshar had two Pure Tones, after it had three. This implies to me that something that happened there Invested Odium on Roshar. Something we can guess didn't happen at Rayse's volition. Now, you might ask "why would being Invested be a problem to Rayse? Surely he'd not be morally conflicted at reclaiming any part of his that got Invested somewhere?" And no, I don't think he'd have a moral problem with taking back his power, but I don't think he can, or at least it's hard for him. As other people have already noted, for instance the thread speculating that Division is Odium's Truest Surge, Odium generally stands for something divisive, just as Honor can be seen as uniting. And yes, both can switch places, but hatred generally pushes you away from people and following some form of framework generally makes you part of a group. As just one example, we can see these thematic elements of Odium and Honor in the Surgebinders: Knights Radiant are a union of spren and humans (traditionally), working together to do things neither can do alone. Fused are solitary, forgoing even the normal relationship between spren and singer, as well as casting out the soul of the singer whose body they inhabit. And Odium's forces have other thematic divisions or separations as well: Most of the Fused have lost track of their original goal, being unlikely to relinquish rule to the common singers if they actually won. They are no longer fighting for their stated goal and are thematically separated from themselves. The former parshmen have been denied both the opportunity to make their own future and the ties they gained to the various national cultures of Roshar, they are separated both from their own self-determination and cultural roots. Moash/Vyre is very straightforward, he's separated from his emotions. The Unmade are separated from whatever they were before they were Unmade. And, while he's not known to be on Odium's side, Renarin's bond to an Enlightened spren sets him apart from normal Radiants. So, Odium is a (generally) separating force, so what? Well, that, along with the idiosyncracies noted by robardin, I believe, last week, points to that Odium might have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture. -Oathbringer, chapter 118 -Rhythm of War, chapter 112 -Rhythm of War, chapter 111 For all Rayse's threatening he apparently can't make good on the threat to force the Fused to stay away or to punish a traitor? It seems to be a lot of bluster. So what would Rayse be afraid of? Becoming Invested somewhere, hindering his murder-athon and, by extention, someone else being able to manipulate Odium's Investiture freely. Thus my conclusion is that Rayse wouldn't risk having Bondsmith-alike Fused, on the off chance that they'd so something Bondsmith-y, resulting in some of his power going where he doesn't want it. This might also be why the Everstorm doesn't infuse gems, though I do believe that Voidlight naturally cycles back to Odium, even if it can't be actively reclaimed. Also that Rayse seems like a blithering idiot for not following the Returned design philosophy, but then again, it's entirely possible he couldn't tweak that to run only on Voidlight, rather than Investiture over all. A side-note at the end of this is also that I think it could be possible that the Fused getting a passive and an active effect from their Light might be a conscious design descision on Rayse's part, as an attempt to make less of Odium's Investiture circulate. Part three: Unmade, Surges and cousinspren So, what's the deal? Well, there's this WoB: Which has of course had people trying to find which one maps to which Order, though note that Brandon says it's not a perfect match. I have personally thought that the Unmade should fill the Bondsmith spot, being parallel to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I'm fully prepared to accept that this might be the case, that bonding an Unmade produces a Bondsmith, even though the power of the spren itself isn't in the same slot. However, I recently encountered something that shifted my perspective and made me think that this might not be the case. Now, as I stated in part one, I believe that whatever the Unmade powers are, they fully fit within the context of the Surges. I also favour the cousinspren method of parallels, as each cousinspren seems able to manifest the primary Surge of the associated Radiant Order, e.g. windspren known to stick things together, a manifestation of Adhesion. (I do think that properly what I call the primary Surge would be denoted secondary Surge, as otherwise the Radiant Order that lacks a corresponding Fused Brand is Windrunners, not Bondsmiths. But I'm gonna use primary, since that's the order they're listed in.) Now, we need to be conscious of that there are three Unmade we don't really know anything about; Ba-Ado-Mishram, as all her Connection and Bondsmith-seeming shenanigans don't seem to have been a thing before the False Desolation, going by the Gem archive, that being her only known abilities makes it hard to line her up with anything, as it's apparently not her base powerset, Dai-Gonarthis, who is an almost complete unknown and Chemoarish who is much the same. That in mind, let's make a list! Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion Unmade: Yelig-nar I personally believe that Yelig-nar's ability to grant all Surges possibly comes from an application of Adhesion, similar to the Bondsmith ability to manipulate the Surges of other Radiants. He also fits thematically, being known as Blightwind. Skybreaker/Surge of Gravitation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish We have not seen the influence of any Unmade that I would assume uses a form of Gravitation, leaving only the three unknowns. Dustbringer/Surge of Division Unmade: Nergaoul Nergaoul's power could well be a Cognitive manifestation of Division, it both breaks down resolve and discipline and causes people to fight like individuals, not soldiers. Thematically the total loss of control of the Thrill is absolutely counter to the Dustbringer theme of self-mastery. Edgedancer/Surge of Abrasion Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish Not much to say here, again I don't think an Unmade we've properly seen the influence of lines up. Thematically Chemoarish might fit, being known as Dustmother, but that is tenuous. Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression Unmade: Moelach Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation od the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is. Lightweaver/Surge of Illumination Unmade: Re-Shephir Shallan directly compares her to a creationspren, confirmed to be the cousinspren of Cryptics. Thematically she makes tangible darkness where Lightweavers make ephemeral light. Elsecaller/Surge of Transformation Unmade: Sja-anat Sja-anat changes spren, the most straightforward cause of which would be Transformation. Thematically she's also semi-present in both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, in addition, she's called Taker of Secrets, contrasting the scholarly characterisation of the Elsecallers, she aquires the knowledge of others rather than making new knowledge. Willshaper/Surge of Transportation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish The last Surge which no Unmade seems to have exhibited thus far, making it hard to guess. Stoneward/Surge of Cohesion Unmade: Ashertmarn Ashertmarn could be placed in a few different spots, and I myself have previously gone with Abrasion, but after some consideration I think that the power of the Heart of the Revel is possibly a Cognitive manifestation of the Surge of Cohesion, making people soft and pliable. Thematically the hedonism of Ashertmarn can also be seen as an inversion of the Stoneward theme of being where they need to be. Well, that took absolutely forever to type, if you made it here, thanks for reading. I hope it's all (fairly) clear and possible to follow, though I know I tend to ramble. Discussion both welcome and encouraged. ¤_¤

I have a theory: Two people will become the vessels of Odium, Cultivation and Honor, with Honor divided between the two of them. For instance, Dalinar might ascend to Odium and half of Honor, becoming an Odium-heavy shard of War. Someone else would ascend to Cultivation and the other half of Honor. Maybe Lirin would be Honor-vation, as he’s got Edgedancer vibes but is honorable to a fault. Each would be an active shard, unlike Harmony, especially War. War might be even more motivated to take over the cosmere than Rayse was, because of the Intent of the new shard. Cultiv-honor (can anyone come up with a real name?) would have the potential to be a very “good” Shard, depending on who the vessel is and how the two shards combine. I am only raising this as a possibility. I wouldn’t bet on it happening.

Ok, I have no proof of this hypothesis. But seeing the fact that Axindweth is from Terris (Scadrial), and she is the one who brings the voidspren to Roshar from Braize, it makes me think that she is a member of the Set, or that she is someone important in Trell's plans. We know that Odium and Autonomy have a "pact", being possible allies, so it would not be strange that Trell is an avatar of Autonomy, who feels admiration for Odium (like Patji in Oathbringer's letter) and seeks the return of the Desolations to favor Odium. It is not a well-crafted hypothesis, but it is what I think it might be. And furthermore, I also think that the Set itself is a reaction to the Ghostbloods, being rival organizations, like the Ghostbloods and Sons of Honor. What do you think?

Could Mercy have spared Uli Da while splintering Ambition? I think it is in line with Mercy's intent and a logical guess with the minimal information that we have. Ambition is separate from Uli Da and I think that it could be shattered while. Also could Uli Da being Fain mean that The Evil is Fainlife created from a piece of her? --This was a discussion from 2017 that got closed and I want to re-discuss. Honestly, I want to discuss anything vaguely Threnody--Shard--Cosmere related...

So, in Endowment's letter to Hoid in Oathbringer she mentions that "If Rayse becomes an issue he will be dealt with." This implies she has something of a plan in case Odium comes to Nalthis to try and Splinter her, and I think I know what the plan is? I think Endowment was going to wield Nightblood and use it to help her Splinter Odium or just kill Rayse. We know from a wob that Endowment was "involved" in the creation of Nightblood somehow, which means that she saw something in what Vasher and Shashara were doing and helped them along. We've seen that Odium was scared of Nightblood and for good reason, given how RoW ended. Now, maybe a Shard can't wield Nightblood for complicated Realmatic reasons or something, but if that's the case then Endowment could've planned on having a champion use it. Thoughts? Disagreements? I wanna hear everyone else's opinions on this because I don't have irl friends who I can talk to about this

@Ishar and I were discussing who the third Bondsmith might be, and he presented an interesting idea: What if there is no Bondsmith? With the anti-light, what if Odium's first move is to kill the Nightwatcher, eliminating the third Bondsmith spren? Whether or not this will actually happen is worth discussing, but this also poses another question. We know that lots of people have boons from the Nightwatcher, including Lift, Dalinar, and Taravangian. What would happen to these people––and to Roshar in general––if Odium kills the Nightwatcher? Just curious to see what everyone thinks!

I realize this theory is going out on a limb, and makes a couple of very big assumptions. But I really think this could be a possible route to how the things go in StormLight book 5. Ever since I finished Oathbringer, I've come to the conclusion that since Honor and Cultivation restrained Odium in some way, Odium himself is only a real threat while he has the fuzed and singers obeying him. Obviously, there are humans following Him, along with the Unmade and Thunderclasts, but the vast majority of his forces come from the singers. The Fuzed are basically helpless without willing singers to sacrifice their bodies for them. When I realized this, it also occurred to me that the way to defeat Odium is to find a way to separate him from the singers. My first, relatively stupid, idea was to simply find a way to have the humans and singers on different worlds. Obviously this is never going to happen, since the humans have lived on Roshar for so long, and since the singers were the original inhabitant species, both feel as if it rightfully belongs to them. So I started trying to figure out what might get the singers to turn on or reject Odium. I've posted a theory already about how I think it was the singers that started the wars in the first place. But that alone wouldn't be enough to change their minds. They might not be happy that it was the Fuzed and their like that started the fighting, but that doesn't seem like it could overshadow their anger at humankind. The years they spent as slaves to humans is what is truly fueling their rage. That's when it hit me. What if the humans weren't the only ones to blame for the singer's enslavement? Stick with me on this. During Dalinar's last vision in WoK, Honor tells Dalinar various pieces of puzzle in the conflict between Him and Odium. One line that specifically stood out to me was when he mentions that Odium has realized that the people of Roshar will fight amongst themselves if left alone. This is a fairly simple concept. Getting multiple enemies to turn on each other is one of the easiest ways to defeat opponents. He also claims He will be dead by the anyone ever receives the message, if anyone even does. So it's safe to say that Honor died shortly after he created that message. This line in Honor's message is the first of two pieces of information supporting this theory. Honor's death would have happened after the Herald's decided to abandon the Oathpact (since the visions not only showed their abandoned swords, but at least one vision afterward at FeverStone Keep), which means that two of the four largest unifying forces for humankind, their god and his heralds, would be gone. The main unifying forces left would be the Knights Radiant and the singers, humankind's enemy. You might be able to see where I'm going with this. If Odium could figure out a way to remove both of those, humans wouldn't be as strongly united anymore, and would likely turn on each other. This brings me to my main point. I think that Odium intentionally setup Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment, knowing what would come of it. I believe that Odium realized what would happen if the singers were removed from the equation; that the Radiants and their spren would choose to end the orders if they no longer had an enemy to fight. Honor encouraged the radiants not to give up even after they found out that Roshar originally belonged to the singers, and he also acted as a check against their powers. With Him gone, they lost both of these things, and Odium was likely crafty enough to deduce that if he could remove the singers somehow, the knights would be gone, and humans would eventually start fighting amongst themselves. But what's the evidence that Odium did anything like this? It takes a some amount of reasoning, but there is another piece of information that supports it. The fact that the entire population of singers were bonded to BAM at the time of her imprisonment. Not counting the Listeners, since they were separated at the time. Previously, the Fuzed had taken over willing singers, and some voidspren had granted some singers forms of power. But, if it's possible for one of the Unmade to grant every existing singer a Regal status, then why didn't Odium himself do this? Why hasn't he done this during the current desolation? A larger quantity of powerful soldiers would be better for his army. It doesn't fit. With the way Regals act so aggressively, it's likely they've be even more willing to give themselves up to the Fuzed. Yes, it's possible that there just weren't as many singers at the time of BAM's imprisonment, and this evens things out, but that answer doesn't sit right with me. If their numbers were proportionally smaller, then the Radiants shouldn't have needed to imprison BAM to end the war. During one of Venli's flashback chapters, the voidspren Ulim talks to her about how BAM was imprisoned and what that did to the singers. The fact that he never mentions anything about Odium being responsible makes sense however, since he wouldn't want to reveal anything that might turn singers against Odium, assuming Ulim even knew about it. We don't know when exactly human's learned to imprison spren, but judging from the way the Fuzed were surprised by it, it was probably after Aharietiam. We also don't know where humans learned to imprison spren in the first place. It's entirely possible that Odium himself leaked that knowledge to humans, but i admit that's pure speculation. It's more likely he took advantage of humankind's ability to imprison spread in gemstones. And let's not forget that Odium would need to eventually bring the singers back. Obviously, this is done with the Everstorm. While the Stormfather said that the Everstorm is new, it is old of design, which means that the idea for it probably existed before the recreance, during the time of the desolations. So it could easily have been a part of Odium's plans. It is also possible that he just never thought that Taln would be able to resist for for over four thousand years, and figured by the time Taln broke (which never happened) the humans would be sufficiently divided. If the information that Odium was responsible for the singer's enslavement were somehow distributed to the singer population, I imagine that would turn the entire situation on its head. They might not be any less angry at humans, but if they found out the very god they were following, the one their ancestors had followed, had betrayed them and gotten them enslaved, they would probably abandon Him pretty quickly. It's the sort of thing that could end the war in a chaotic enough way to upend the new Odium's plans and bring a semi-conclusion good enough for the first half of the ten book installment. Of course, the contest of champions would still happen, but this would be a dramatic enough event to impact even that.

So, I've had a couple of theories for a while now that I've wanted to put out there. I don't know if a WoB contradicts them, but I figured I should post this first one. The storm father's explanation in Oathbringer of how the desolations started began with the fuzed and singers attacking humans and the heralds creating the oathpact to stop them. But why exactly did the ancient singers attack in the first place? The way the books are set up, it appears as though after humans arrived on Roshar, they attacked the singers, and the singers retaliated, turning to Odium for power. But this never made much sense to me. First of all, it's never explicitly stated what the humans did to the ancient singers, and second, why would Honor choose to side with human invaders over the people of the world he'd made his home? The first point is actually very important. Sanderson has managed to use character's assumptions to set the tone of the series to great effect so far. Describing the thrill in such a way that readers naturally assumed it to be adrenaline is one of the best examples. The Ella Stele, the ancient document showing that humans were the original VoidBringers, only states that the humans betrayed them, with the betrayal extending to spren, stone, and wind. But, just as with the "Lost Radiants", the betrayal is not explicitly described. That seems intentionally vague to me. As if leaving enough room for something to be interpreted as a betrayal, with the singers interpreting the humans' actions as one, even if it hadn't been intended as one. As I said, the second thing that didn't make sense was why Honor would choose humans who'd supported Odium over the singers who had been of Roshar, especially if they had betrayed the singers who had taken them in. Imagining it as humans going back and forth between Honor and Odium seems unlikely. I think it much more likely that the human abandoned Odium shortly after arriving on Roshar. They saw Honor, and maybe Cultivation, as being more worthy deities, and chose to worship them instead. But then, what triggered the Desolations? Jealousy. As the introduction to chapter 32 of WoR, we get the following passage from a listener's song. The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. This is the passage that sparked this theory when I first read WoR and then Oathbringer a few years ago, with the last line being the most significant to me. If the Listeners had this song, then they knew about the bond between spren and humans/singers. And this passage makes it seem like spren seem to prefer humans to singers for some reason. The betrayals between singers and spren are mentioned in RoW on at least two occasions. The first is mentioned by Blended during Adolin's trial, when she's testifying against him. The second betrayal is implied by Leshwi to Venli, when she says the spren have forgiven them. But what exactly were these betrayals? I think it has to do with how humans can become surge binders much more easily than singers. Syl tells Kaladin in WoR that Parshendi can't become surgebinders, and Venli expresses her surprise to bonding Timbre in Oathbringer for the same reason. I don't know why spren can bond humans more easily, my current guess is because their emotions are more accessible, but if large numbers of spren were drawn to humans and away from singers after the humans arrived, that could easily be seen as a betrayal that extends to the spren, wind, and stones. This leads to my previous conclusion, where singer jealousy is specifically what triggered all this, which is also the betrayal mentioned by Blended. Odium almost certainly fanned the flames, increasing the ancient singers' jealousy of humans drawing the spren, and making them angry at the spren for "betraying" them, but that jealousy was his opening. The singers turned to Odium, who granted them the power to take revenge on humans, which made them the easily manipulated army he wanted. Thoughts?

A question just occurred to me. Let’s say you are goods divine hatred, separated from all that gave it context and your main goal in life seems to be destroying any entity that could ever rival you in power or influence. So you set out to destroy all the other shards. Which ones would you go after? The ones by themselves? Perhaps. Seems like a safe bet. The ones who pose the greatest challenge to your goals? Perhaps. Depending on if you think you could get the advantage over them. How about where a pair of shards are already at battle with each other? Seems like the place I would want to start. But no, where do you end up going? A system containing 2 shards who appear to be working together, who seem content to stay out of your way. The only thing I can figure is that he was tricked into going there or he thought he would have help *squints suspiciously at cultivation* but what ended up happening was exactly what I would have guessed would happen. The two shards in that system were very smart and powerful and trapped him there were he ultimately end up getting killed (at least the vessel). So Why on Adonalsium green earth did Odium think going to the Roshar system would be a good idea? Why not pick off the single shards first or go after the ones already in conflict with one another? What am I missing? What would be worth going up against those odds? A Dawnshard perhaps? I know that he followed the humans there, but why? How did he think things would go? Show up, take out not one, but two shards, and then walk away unscathed? He is the god of hatred, not arrogance.