Search the Community

Reading Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut and this caught my eye, figured I'd share: "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." This made me think of Odium. If Rayse didn't explicitly seek out the Odium shard, he's certainly taken to it well. Howard Campbell (the narrator of Mother Night) would call Rayse's unlimited hatred, his hope for god-justified hatred, a sign of his evil.

We know almost nothing about the Dawnshards, so obviously this theory isn't built on any concrete evidence. But here's my thought process... In Dalinar's vision, Honor himself used the word "Dawnshard," so it's clearly an official, accurate term. He also used the word "shards" for the shardblades of the Radiants. So there would seem to be a connection. Suppose Dawnshards are "shards" in the same sense as the blades. Spren. Powerful, ancient spren, sent by the Almighty to aid mankind. Which is exactly how Vorins describe the Dawnsingers. But that belief could be a product of its time. In the Age of Solitude (when SLA takes place), most people don't understand that shards are spren. So I'd theorize that the Dawnshards and the Dawnsingers are the same thing. (Or, potentially, that the Dawnsingers were humans, bonded with the Dawnshard-spren.) Now here's the weird part. So Honor says we are "without the Dawshards." But if we don't have the Dawnshards, what happened to them? They can't have been destroyed; they're splinters, pure investiture, which cannot be created or destroyed. They might have been killed, like the common blade-spren, but that wouldn't make them gone. They'd still be around, at least partially usable, and potentially even revivable. I guess they could be 'splintered' beyond repair, the same way Shards (of Adonalsium) are splintered. But as far as I know, that doesn't happen to spren. It could, in theory, but let's assume it hasn't. What if Honor lost the Dawnshards because Odium took them? Took them, tortured them, infected them with his own malignant investiture, and twisted them into monstrous agents of hatred and destruction. Ergo... the Unmade. This might explain the name "Unmade." Honor made them as beautiful, benevolent Dawnshards, and Odium un-made them, ruining Honor's work. It also makes sense when you consider the names of the known unmade. Nergaoul and Moelach are clearly named for the Mesopotamian gods Nergal and Moloch. These 'gods' are identified as demons in Judeo-Christian mythology, and demons, generally, are fallen angels. And what are the Dawnsingers, if not angels? Thoughts?

I just finished a reread of The Way of Kings. Something in the last vision Dalinar receives stood out to me. He is obsessed through the whole book about uniting the High Princes, because of a vision he had. He has that same vision again at the end of the book but it is extended. In the extended version we learn that Honor is the one who sent them and that Odium has killed him. He is again told to "Unite Them". But who must he Unite? Note: I removed Dalinar's thoughts and dialogue for clarity. It is right after Honor points out the star systems being destroyed by Odium, while still looking at those star systems, that he tells Dalinar "Someone must unite them". Honor is not just saying Unite the High Princes, or the Knights Radiant, or even all of Roshar. Honor is thinking on a much, MUCH bigger scale. Unite the Cosmere!

Some things we know: Honor was shattered a long time ago. Honor was shattered by Odium Odium is not in support of anybody being happy The Heralds in the prelude really do not want to go back to the place they go between desolations There is a quote in the prelude that mentions hooks and fire in damnation Honor likes the Heralds Some things I am extrapolating: There have probably been desolations before the shattering of Honor There have probably been desolations after the shattering of Honor Fire could be a natural phenomenon, but for there to be hooks in damnation makes it seem like an intentional torture planet Odium probably is happy about the Heralds suffering My theory There was probably some form of Damnation before Honor was shattered, but it wasn't that bad. Then, after Odium shattered Honor, Honor was no longer there to protect the Heralds, and Odium was free to make Damnation as terrible as it could possibly be. He can do whatever he wants to it because he owns Braize. Ideas?

This was probably discussed previously on this forum but I couldn't find it anywhere so I'll ask. I don't have the exact quote in front of me but in WoR, right before Szeth comes to assassinate Dalinar the first time, Kaladin speaks to the stormfather in his dream. The Stormfather seemingly references the impending attack by saying something like "He comes...the one who hates." Since Szeth immediately attacks I assumed it was a reference to him, but seeing as Odium essentially means hatred shouldn't this be a reference to him? Does this refer to Odium then and the Stormfather was just giving a general warning about Odium's return that just happened to coincide with Szeth's attack? Or does this mean that Szeth was being influenced by Odium? Is there an answer for this out there?

Hi guys, i've got two theories (not mutually exclusive) for why Odium can Splinter other Shards. 1.Odium is more powerful than the other Shards. While i've constantly seen references to Adonalsium shattering into sixteen pieces, i don't think i've ever heard mention ofthose pieces being equal in size. Maybe when the Vessels were taking the power Rayse took a bigger chunk of Mr A's corpse. This would enable him to overpower other Shards and kill them whilst still having enough power to survive. 2.Odium's Intent causes the Splintering Odium means extreme hatred and dislike, and also the state of being hated. Hate also causes people to turn away from one another, to divide. What if this applies on a Shardic level as well? What if Odium can infect a Shard with hatred? Self hatred to be exact. Similar to a virus turning a body's immune system against itself, what if it does the same to the Shard, which causes it to fracture and essentially self-splinter. It would also make sense why we haven't seen other Shards do this. For example, Dominion and Devotion, while seemingly different are in the end both about unity. They couldn't Splinter others even if they tried. The same goes for Preservation, Honor and probably Cultivation. This gives Odium a major advantage. Ruin may be able to do it but remember that he was imprisoned by Preservation for millenia and couldn't find enough opportunity to practise. Also, while Rayse was a nasty fellow even before becoming Odium and thus naturally inclined to find a way to kill the others, Ati was supposedly a pretty nice guy. It wouldn't be in his nature to practise this. That's it guys, could be on to something or it could be a load of crem Thanks anyway, interested to hear what you think.

Do other types of investiture suffer/benefit (depending on how you want to view it) from overuse of their powers similar to misting savants?

I am going to start by saying this is a bit out there, and only applies if Trell is not one or more of the Shards of Adonalsium, but an outside entity of power equal to or greater than that of a shard. I believe that Odium is working with Trell in order to conquer the Cosmere. This idea comes from an analysus of Odium's personality. Odium is filled with hatred, but this hatred is directed towards those who have enough power to challenge him. This explains why Odium is seeking to splinter the other shards, as they are the only beings of seemingly equal power to him. This also explains why Odium never went after Harmony, as Harmony would be (potentially) twice as powerful as Odium. This is where Trell comes in. Trell tried to take over Scadrial, but has decided to destroy it instead. This brings up the possibility that Trell is more powerful than Harmony, or has the potential to be more powerful than him, and the only reason Trell does not just destroy Harmony is the people of Scadrial, who were not in a mindset to create chaos, thus weakening Harmony. The reason they would be working together is that Odium would likely be threatened by Trell, but Odium is cunning. A person who thinks like Odium would seek to help Trell in order to avoid their wrath, but nice their time for a moment to betray their partner without fear of loss. Disclaimer: This is entirely conjecture based on my interpretation of Odium's personality. I also basement of my ideas off of a relatively faulty memory, which means there are almost certainly important details that would make or break this theory that I don't remember.

So I've been reading through Words of Radiance and the Listener's songs really jumped out at me in this process. I wanted to do an analysis of them to see what clues we could comb from them as we enter the year of waiting for Oathbringer. First, some background on who the Parshendi are, from the words of Eshonai's mother: For some reason, the Listeners in the days of the Last Legion were slaves, forced into forms of power, but also forms that forced them to abandon their autonomy (not a reference to Autonomy). On one day of extreme courage, the Listeners decided to accept Dullform, abandoning their ability to think as individuals with power in exchange for freedom. To prevent a loss of their culture and history, they composed songs to remember. Here are the stanzas recorded in Words of Radiance (as chapter epigraphs): "They blame our people for the loss of that land. The city that once covered it did range the eastern strand. The power made known in the tomes of our clan our gods were not who shattered these plains." Possible Interpretation: The Knights Radiant blamed the Listeners for the destruction of the great city of Stormseat (now the Shattered Plains), but the Unmade did not shatter the Shattered Plains. So, if it wasn’t the Parshendi or Odium that messed up Natanatan, what did? Per a WoB, the Natan people were descendants of the Aimian people – what is Aimia really? Stormseat/the Shattered Plains is also listed as the place where the Parshendi became separated from their gods (i.e. the Unmade). While Eshonai's mother makes this sound like a choice the Last Legion made on their own, I wonder if perhaps they had some help in selecting a new form (i.e. moving to dullform) or if they abandoned a form entirely, submiting to slaveform, which is a lack of spren and not considered to be a form at all. "The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, but not to those who know them most dear, before us. ’Tis no surprise we turned away unto the gods we spent our days and to become their molding clay, they changed us." Possible Interpretation: The Rider of Storms was a powerful spren (maybe even an Unmade), and was responsible for bonding spren to the Listeners, but betrayed Odium/The Listeners by giving the Nahel bond (and surgebinding powers) to humans instead. This great spren’s betrayal was even worse with the eventually merging with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. Spren were known to certain humans before they were known to the Listeners. Perhaps this refers to pre Honor/Cultivation humans on Roshar OR maybe even to the Heralds? The Heralds would have been very familiar with surges. "The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm that gives us our forms, but more is then demanded by the smartest spren, we can’t provide what the humans lend, though broth are we, their meat is men." Possible Interpretation: The realm that gives forms is the Cognitive Realm. The Listeners exist halfway in the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm, similar to how Lift’s half-way in, half-way out status grants her certain odd things (like the ability to physically touch her spren). As the Listeners have a song-based hive mind (very loose description), they Listeners seem similar to The Sleepless (Dysian Aimians)? As Aimians are an ancient race on Roshar, perhaps they and the Listeners share a common ancestor in their evolution? Who are “The smartest spren?” The Listeners cannot give something that humans give spren, so in return the Listeners sacrifice their autonomy in return for the powers they offer (which isn’t required of humans). Perhaps these spren are the Unmade again who demand more, which is the full submission of the Listeners. That the Unmade want the meat of men, it seems that the poor Listeners are caught in the middle as a tool to be used rather than the object of divine desire. "But it is not impossible to blend their Surges to ours in the end. It has been promised and it can come. Or do we understand the sum? We questioned not if they can have us then, but if we dare to have them again." The Listener’s surges can be blended with the surges of human surgebinders? It seems that human surgebinders aren’t the problem – it isn’t a question if they’ll accept the blending of the Listener’s surges (whatever this means) – but rather, will the Listeners desire to blend with the humans? Who promised that this blending can and will come? "Our gods were born splinters of a soul, of one who seeks to take control, destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life, a challenged champion. A strife even he must requite." Possible Interpretation: We know that the Unmade are splinters of Odium and are therefore the gods of the Listeners. The Unmade are also the spren of Odium, but also are referred to as a gift – a gift with a price. Perhaps Odium through the Unmade gave the Listeners power (the gift), but it came at the price of their personal autonomy (the price). The strife even Odium must requite (i.e. respond to) is the challenge of a champion. Consider the Stormfather’s admonition to Dalinar: Therefore, Odium will either be defeated or find victory in this battle of champions, which will be shown (I assume) by the end of Stormlight 5. Whew! It's a lot to chew on, but what do we think? Do these interpretations sound reasonable? It makes me feel even more empathy for the Parshendi - if Gavilar was planning to bring back powers that could return the eyes of the Unmade to Listeners (which he may not have understood), I understand why they felt compelled to kill him. Slavery in a war that isn't really their beef (i.e. Odium using them as a tool, not because they're willing participants) is a horrible existence.

So, I want to run this by everyone to see if I am repeating something that is generally understood. Odium comes to Roshar. The goal is to Splinter Honor. Honor knows this. He lays a trap. The cost of possible Splintering (edit: of Honor) is that Odium must be bound to the Roshar system and therefore not be able to leave and chase other Shards. Something Honor would do - put himself between the danger and those it pursues. The Oathpact suddenly makes sense. The way to keep Odium bound to a system is to have Odium Invest. How does one do it on Roshar? Give up its Investiture to create a lot of spren. The more spren, the higher one's Investment. So, Odium, by Oathpact, can battle Honor, but in the way that bounds him: by Investing in Roshar, and fighting the spren war. Basically, the voidspren, the Unmade, *any other object* Invested by Odium on Roshar, makes Odium's Connection to Roshar higher. Which is why there MUST BE multiple Desolations - Odium must be permitted to grow its influence on Roshar to the point of active war. And this is why, short of Splintering Odium himself, this must repeat - if Odium's influence on Roshar wanes, he leaves the system and goes after other Shards. So, Honor chooses to play a long and dangerous game with Odium, just like Preservation chose with Ruin. Also explains Hoid's "I sympathize with you, Dalinar, but what I seek to achieve and what you do are not one and the same, and *my* goals are more important!" Hoid wants Odium bound to Roshar. Odium whose influence is purged from Roshar is free to roam elsewhere. Hoid does not want it. The problem right now is that Odium has splintered Honor. Achievement unlocked. Now is the time to leave the system (or Splinter Cultivation and leave the system). To do this, there must be an all-out war that ends with destruction of all Odium's assets on Roshar (at the cost of a massive devastation), and frees him. TL;DR: Desolations and voidspren are the means of keeping Odium Connected to Roshar. Odium must be kept Invested. This obviously skims over a lot of things (like, why Heralds). But overall, what am I missing? Edit: It has been wisely pointed out that the Oathpact refers to the deal Honor made with the Heralds, not Odium. I struck that unfortunate phrase. The rest of the point remains salient: Honor promises Odium a chance to take him out, but Odium must Invest in Roshar to be able to Splinter Honor.

So I just found this new WoB here: Given that we have that old WoB that there aren't 10 Unmade, and given that we think that Odium has been forced to camp out on Braize, I'm proposing that there are in fact going to be 9 Nazgûl Unmade. Now if we look at Voidbinding, the name suggests that the magic is a mix of both Odium and Honour, which suggest that much like Surgebinding there could be multiple Orders. It would make similar sense therefore for there to be 9 Orders of Voidbinding, each of which could then be linked to one of the Unmade similarly to how the Orders of Radiants link to one of the Heralds.

"You could tell them from the way they walked... Of course the softly glowing red eyes were another sign." -The Bands of Mourning, pg 433 This is the reference to the first of the "other" Kandra. This was the most impressive part for me in the end of BoM. (Well one of three) This is tied directly to the red haze Wax observed encircling Scadrial. Harmony said it was the presence of something else, a power from beyond the planet. Now I know there is speculation that this is Odium, and I think I can confirm it. We know the void spren are of Odium. They are what make the Thunderclast and what is needed to create storm-form in the Parshendi. These forces have been described as red spren moving like lightning. The also turned the Parshendi's eyes red. Some may see this as a generalization, but there is too much consistency here. In the Song of Secrets they sing: Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life... So these spren are Splinters of Odium. That makes sense. What is interesting is that he made his splinters spren. Until now, the Shards of the various worlds each have different forms of magic, splinters, and goals. However Odium seems to be mimicking Cultivation and Honor as he seeks to destroy them and all that they created. Upon reflection this seemed odd to me. Then I remembered the red eyes The Set have their own Kandra, which means they are not of Harmony. Yet here it is again, it seems that someone is mimicking the tools and followers of Harmony. There are these Void Kandra and the Set has somehow learned about Hemalurgy, and knows how to use it. Remember the dog-men who chased Wax in Shadows of Self? They were new unknown creations. The Lord Ruler experimented with Hemalurgy for 1000 years, and he couldn't make anything more than he had created during his ascension. These things are made from something who understands Hemalurgy like Ruin did and it (probably) isn't Harmony. Now the other thought is that this could be another Shard. Well that is possible, and if that's the case then we cannot know more until the next book comes out. However I hope you see that the parallels between Trell on Scadrial and Odium on Roshar are pretty apparent. So I think this is Odium's plan. He creates mimics who use twisted versions of a shard's power, using the powers and investiture of his foes. This somehow gives him an advantage and might be the key to a shards destruction, using their own power against them somehow. I doubt I was the first one to think about this, but i couldn't see anything posted on this in my search. Even so, the possibilities are endless. I wonder if Scadrial is about to face its first Desolation...

Seriously. As I look through some of the Ars Arcanum for each book, I have trouble comprehending certain concepts, such as the use for Aluminum holding identity. What sort of uses to the more minuscule abilities in the Cosmere have?

This might be the most important of Cosmere topics. Now we understand that the different magics and peoples of the Cosmere are fascinating and amazing. But even more so are the entities that were never alive, yet have a personality and drive of their own. These Splinters are pockets of Shardic Power that develop a type of intelligence. It is apparent that these beings are critical to the overall narrative of the Cosmere, while some are likely the perpetrators of some of the greatest evils seen so far. What are these Splinters and how do you recognize one? Transcripts: I wish my father could have come to Roshar. Things that seemed mundane to others fascinated him to no end. The rocky hills and the crustaceous life that seems to make up this entire world are so different from the home I once knew. He would have written enough dissertations and filled enough sketchbooks to drown a man in the first week alone. He was odd, but he had a love of discovery, and visiting other worlds would have been a dream come true for him. And my brother…. He would have loved seeing all the different shapes spren come in. The spren are small spirit looking entities that appear around the planet. Forces and states of mind that normally too subtle to observe clearly are manifested visually making their study far easier to perform empirically. I believe that a spren is a physical representation of a cognitive entity. They are not physical in the sense that you can touch them, or that they have any sort of measurable mass. But they remind me of the simple minds that exist, attached to the objects in the Cognitive realm. However, these are not attached to any one object, rather they are bound to a purpose or intent. For instance, if one is provoked into anger, anger spren seem to be drawn out, and serve as a secondary indicator of the being’s intent. There are also Spren tied to more ecological forces, such as flame spren and river spren. I’ve even observed spren that seem to account for things unseen, such as wind spren and life spren. This aspect of spren and their natures yields promising potential in the fields of science and sociology. It must be far easier to consult or comfort someone when fear spren manifest their anxiety. In my personal journals I have been writing up my observations of the spren and their forms. My notes are far from professional and I doubt anyone but myself would be interested in these notations. I feel there must be some connection between the existence of spren and the High Storms which bring great rushing surges of Investiture. These cataclysmic storms occur most weeks if not multiple times a week. Such a rush of raging power must have metaphysical effects along with the violent weather phenomena that is the storm wall. Now while I would love to chat about spren all day, this letter is a particular note because I have a theory about what these spren actually are. You see they take up a form that is far too intelligent to be just a stray consciousness. Some of the larger spren are able to interact and mimic people, such as wind spren. They have an almost playful attitude towards life and have been known to play pranks on humans they encounter. No, there is something far greater at work here. As you know from my previous letter, I am now aware of the former existence of Adonalsium and of the shattering. These fractured Shards left and later developed a drive or fundamental nature to themselves. Shards are immense in scope and power. This power yields abilities that seem only limited to the imagination. In fact, we know from the “Words of Founding” that Shards have created life from their power. Now getting back to the topic at hand, these spren do not act like any animal I have ever come across. They seem to thrive on ideas and concepts of the human mind. By observing and often mimicking what they interact with, spren reveal that they have a core nature. They are drawn to some kid of theme or purpose. This tendency, to have and hold true to an idea or states of environment that reflects what they themselves are. In this way they remind me of matured Shards. As you recall, the Shards seem to have a compulsion to see out a particular ideal, usually summarized by the name they adopt. The spren seem to mimic this type of behavior and single-mindedness. I postulate, based on these observations that spren are little pockets of Shardic power. Unlike raw Investiture, which is simply harness-able energy, spren are power with a measured intelligence and will. They are like Splinters of a soul. It is easier to understand this position when you visit the Cognitive Realm. There the Spren seem far more complex, and even dangerous. There are whispers of larger spren that have intelligence and memories who live there. I hope to do more direct observing as soon as I have established myself with the peoples here. I have seen enough to recognizes that there is something nearly supernatural about these beings. It seems reasonable to assume that these spren are pieces of a greater whole. Splinters are entities of power that were never alive as a humanoid, but attain a level of… consciousness. This is where things are still a bit fuzzy. It cannot be denied that the spren are intelligent, at least in a broad sense. By contrast the Returned on Nalthis also carry with them a Splinter in the form of a divine breath. In fact, all breath might be considered a splinter since they are portions of a Shards power, but a Divine Breath is unique. Yet it must be asked, are the Returned a person brought back from death by infusing their soul with a splinter, or does the Splinter itself inherit the body of a dead person? The answer to this might simply be both, and for this particular argument the distinction is not important. What matters is that there is an intent behind both a spren and Divine Breath. I would then also guess from my studies that Seons could be considered Splinters. They are far more than just a symbol of Aon-dor, and they exemplify obedient intelligence with a profound memory and distinct personality. In this way they might be the most advance form of documented Splinter to date. However, there is a potential in the spren, and if the Nightwatch and Stormfather can be confirmed as massive spren, they might be the most powerful Splinters known to man. I am particularly intrigued by this Nightwatycher. There are rumors that she can grant requests that come with an associated boon. If this is more than a myth, the implications are… staggering. Regardless I plan to make the journey to see this being. I also hope to find a good location to watch a High Storm, hopefully I will be able to observe this Storm Father for myself. As I’ve pondered these findings, my thoughts turned to Scadreal. At first I couldn’t think of any beings or entities there that would count as Splinters. In fact, I still feel that Scadreal has never seen a Splinter according to the historical records that we have. Yet I pause at the thought of the Kandra. The shapeshifters are intelligent beings that once were mindless creatures. They gained their intelligence via the powers of two hemalergic spikes. This was when I made the connection between spikes and Splinters. This may be an unrelated correlation, but the similarities are strong, and only separated by scope. Most hemalergic spikes are simply a form of spiritual surgery, ripping one soul apart and splicing pieces of that soul into another person. But with the kandra, they grant actual consciousness as if they were a Splinter themselves. Perhaps they are. However, I abhor the thought of anyone performing an investigation. Any testing with Hemallergy will be destructive beyond the point of rationality. What troubles me are the whispers of these Voidbringers. On Roshar there are tales of monsters built of stone and darkness that once sought the destruction of all sentient life on this world. The rumors are whispers at best, but I have made several well informed connections. If my discoveries here are accurate and these void spren are actually real, then we are dealing with splinters that are openly hostile. My guess is that these spren move with an intent and were created purposefully by a destructive Shard. I see now why I was sent here, for history seems ripe to repeat itself. I wish to be absolutely wrong about this, but my gut feeling is that there is a great destruction coming. To you, I suggest the following caution. Should I prove right, and find that there are evil spren sent to do the work of a destructive shard, be sure to look for the patterns. These splinters seem to be mimics or replicas of what already exists here. This goes against all that I have observed on other worlds where the Shards manifest uniquely when exerting their respective Investiture powers. If this Dark one seeks to mimic his fellows, then his touch may be subtle. Look for the signs of madness or corruption of what already exists. Red eyes… perhaps this is another sign to watch for. There are reports that the people who wage war here have recently been seen with glowing red eyes. This might be the only reliable way to recognize the servants of this being. Then again, it is possible that there are multiple Shards attempting to cause upheaval and destruction. That thought alone sends a shiver up my spine. I will continue to look into these Void bringers, and there are more reports coming in all the time. Something inside me feels as if there is a great bell just beginning to toll the final hours of this place. The air almost hums with tension and I fear that someday this world will break. I hope your messengers can find me amidst what is to come. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems all too familiar. I wish I had more time, but I am afraid… afraid that I will once again watch innocent lives be snuffed out. I don’t want to watch another world die. Elsric

Hey all, its been awhile since I've lurked on these forums, but I had a thought about civilization pre-odium on Roshar. I think it obvious that the heralds came from a Roshar population that predates odium's arrival on the planet and thus too the desolations. Meaning the heralds likely have a slightly different genetic and spiritual make up from the current inhabitants of Roshar. What I'd like to see discussed is how the current populations differ from the heralds: are the heralds beings created solely from honor an cultivation, and immune to influences like the thrill? are the heralds immortal because of residual after effects of the oath pact. spren are shattered pieces of honor, that emulate the honorblades and make up a newer magic system on Roshar. Do the heralds know of older magic that came exclusively from cultivation and/or honor, and if so does this constitute the 'old magic' of the night watcher? I'd like to hear what you guys think about these topics, or if a similar thread exists I'd love links

So, was just thinking, we all kinda assume that Odium was the one who came to Roshar to hunt Honor and Cultivation, though we don't really know why those two would be at the top of his list, but wouldn't it make more sense if Honor came to Roshar hunting Odium, Honor would have felt obligated to stop Odium and protect other people. So wouldn't it make more sense for either Cultivation to have set up her own planet and have Odium arrive and then Honor shortly after, or for Cultivation and Odium to have set up the world together and then Honor arrived to stop Odium. Just a theory, and I know its a fairly unimportant one at that, but to me it seems to make far more sense for Honor to have been the one Hunting Odium, and not Odium hunting Honor

On page 385 of Hero of Ages, I found an interesting quote: The Stormfather gives Kaladin some interesting information as well: Doesn't this sound like an interesting coincidence of words? Maybe I'm missing something entirely, but do you think there's an in-Cosmere connection to what Elend is saying and what's happening on Roshar, or do you think this is just Brandon introducing this foreshadowing as an easter egg into the Stormlight Archive?

SPOILER ALL COSMERE related possibly Shards are considered as "gods" and most powerful thing in the cosmere as of the moment but out of all the shards that have been revealed through the cosmere novels Mistborn, Stormlight Archives, Elantris, Warbreaker, White Sand, even WoB's and whatever form of story that i missed that Mr. Sanderson produced that is cosmere related. So out of the limited information and exposure we had with the shards who did you find most interesting whether it'd be due to the intent, the vessel behind it, the shardworld he/she/it resides or interaction with the other shards, even the ire from Hoid counts too and/or just the things that shard has done so far ? Also some questions i'm curious about Do you guys think Odium has a big opposite shard not Honor and doesn't have to be like perfect opposite kinda like preservation/ruin ? Apparently Bavadin(Autonomy) is Mr. Sanderson's favorite shard, thoughts on the dude especially for White Sand readers ? Do you agree that he's a menace like Hoid suggests in his letter grouping him up with Rayse ? Would you count him as ally or enemy in general ? It seems that Tanavast mentioned in one of Dalinar's dreams that Odium tasted defeat too many times and would not wanna taste defeat again. Do you think that means that Rayse was actually losing between him and Tanavast before Honor got rekt ? Or it was just a stalemate. How many other malevolent shards are there apart from Ruin and Odium ? Possibly Chaos maybe Though we have limited knowledge about shards my favorite is probably Ruin, he seems earnestly thinking he could help people by ending them lol . I would've said Harmony but if only the dude acts more like Ruin than preservation, he feels like a caretaker more than somebody who is actually half Ruin tbh, i wish he was more malevolent since he still represents enthrophy/change/death/destruction. Well that's all . Thoughts?

Yes, Trell again. I don't know if anyone have indicated the following. Correct me if my realization gets anything wrong. So here comes two quotes from TheoryLand Interview Database (Harmony bless the providers): And: And so, we got two big points: 1)Trell is related to Odium. 2)We haven't seen Odium's embodiment yet. This interview took place in 2/14/2016, when BoM had released. In BoM, we've seen Trellium, believed to be Trell's metal, even though we are not sure about who or what Intent he really is. There's quite a lot comments speculating that Trell is actually Odium. And I think it's an attractive idea as well. But in my recognition we have no evidence supporting that yet. And now, the two entries seem to tell us that Trell is actually, not Odium. We've seen Trellium, but no Odium's embodiment for now. And maybe it's Bavadin? I don't believe that. But there are still seven Shards we haven't known running outside the Shardworlds we've seen. Sometimes we just ignored these possibilities. Seven unknown Shards. Thus, I believe Trell, if a Shard, would be one of the Seven rather than Odium or Autonomy. And what Trellium looks like give me a sense that he's nothing cute, either. What do you think?

Hi, This is my first post in this forum but this topic has been itching me all recently and i cannot keep looking for random WoB and rereading WoTK, WOR about it. Anyways it seems to me that Stormlight Archives has the most crossover between the ones i've read from Sanderson books(or has been spoiled to me by my own fault) So with Harmony also sending his followers (what was it called 13th shard or whatever ) in Roshar as an example. And Nightblood+ Vasher being there. How many other characters from other Sanderson books are there that i might have missed ? except hoid obviously lol I know that the 3 shards that exist in Roshar are Cultivation, Honor and Odium but with Harmony's selected individual in Roshar is it possible that other shards outside Roshar like maybe endowment or other unknown shards have been inserting people or influencing Roshar as well(from the outside of roshar of course) ? Who might they be if i ever missed them? If it's yes with the most meddlers from other worlds and Shards trying to meddle in Stormlight as well. Do you think they are doing it cause Odium is stuck and they just decided move sooner or maybe they have their own motive? Cause with all the Cameo characters from other books it feels like Stormlight is like the big event in the cosmere universe especially since it personally showcases a direct involvement of the portrayed big bad of Cosmere Odium. So thoughts ?

We know from the second letter in Words of Radiance that Odium is trapped in the system he currently inhabits (Roshar). My theory is that Odium has invested in Roshar, specifically in the stone surface itself. The Shin stone shamans believe the stones are holy and should not be walked on. I think this is a perversion of an ancient truth: you don't walk on stone when the spren of your enemy can turn the stone underneath you into a giant rock monster (ThunderClast). Szeth notes that the stone shamans say it is OK to walk on the stone at Urithiru in the I-10 WoR interlude. Jasnah states that some stories claim Urithiru is protected from Voidbringers. My conclusion is that it is OK to walk on Urithiru stone because Voidspren can't bond with it and turn it into monsters. Chapter 6, Jasnah: I-10, Szeth (in Urithiru): Another reason I think Odium is invested in the stone is that certain spren associated with negative emotions like Angerspren, Painspren and Anticipationspren (associated with battle) all have red or orange colors and come out of the ground and stay connected to the ground. Unlike more positive spren like joy or glory spren that float around in the air (like honorspren). All these spren associated with pain, anger and battle are sprouting from Odium's investiture in the stone. From Coppermind Spren Entry: “ Vamah was watching them stand there, and his expression was as thunderous as a highstorm, angerspren boiling up from the ground around him like small pools of bubbling blood.” — The Way of Kings: Chapter Fifteen[35] “ Painspren swarmed the ground, like small orange hands or bits of sinew, reaching up from the ground amid the blood of the fallen.” — The Way of Kings: Chapter Forty-Seven[59] Anticipationspren: “ A few anticipationspren—like red streamers, growing from the ground and whipping in the wind—began to sprout from the rock and wave among the soldiers.” — The Way of Kings: Chapter Six[14] A common type of spren that appear around people looking forward to something. They appear as red streamers that grow out from the ground and blow in the wind. They often appear around soldiers directly before a battle.[14] Finally, when Tanavast appears to Dalinar in chapter 75 of WoK, Tanavast shows a dark stormwall approach and destroy all of the ground around Dalinar and Tanavast. Tanavast says "this is what he wants". Odium needs to free up his investiture in the stone surface of Roshar in order to leave the system fully powered up. http://www.tor.com/2014/05/15/the-way-of-kings-reread-chapters-74-and-75/

There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.

Recently, I reread Elantris 10th anniversary addition, and notice the extra epilogue on Hoid discussing whether he would succeed in being initiated as an Elantrian with a Skaze, there is a quote that caught my attention: "Yes, they [skaze] did have a wider range of emotions than Hoid had assumed. He needed to be careful not to let interactions with one member of a race - even a synthetic race - color his view of them all." What does Hoid mean by "synthetic"? It could imply that Skaze are artificial, and not something of natural occurrence. Due to the similarity between Seons and Skaze, we can sensibly infer one's characteristics to another. We have known that the Aons in Seons are in face Splinters, but not Seons themselves, which supports further that Seons, similar to Skaze, are artificial. We can infer that if there isn't any interference, these Splinters of Devotion and Dominion will NOT form Seons and Skaze. So who created them? The first possible candidates are Selish, especially those who can access the Dor in a large, significant manner, i.e. Elantrians, and later, Dakhor Monks. However, they do not appear to be viable candidates. First, there is no mention of the creation of Seons in the libraries of Elantris, though it is possible that Raoden has yet to discover related records, but very unlikely, as Elantris had been an advanced society for quite some time, and the lack of mention of the creation of Seons is rather suspicious. Second, even if Elantrians are indeed the ones who creates Seons, it does not explain the creations of Skaze, due to the fact that they are completely oblivious of their existence. Third, it would appear that Skaze has existed as long as Seons, but Dakhor Monks are reasonably a very recent creation of the Fjordell Empire, so they could not possibly be the creators of Skaze. It would seem that, Odium appears to be a pretty viable candidate for the creation of Seons and Skaze. It is known that Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion. It is also known that Seons and Skaze contains or consist tof Splinters. This is pure conjecture, but could it be Odium who creates Seons and Skaze? Could it be That in order to kill a shard, to Splinter a shard, it would take a Shard's investiture, and create something new, so that no one can pick up the shard and become its vessel? I originally want to involve Sprens, but as I do my research I discover many inconsistencies and sophistication involving the nature of them, so I will just leave it as it is for now. The main question I asked today, is that did Odium created Seons and Skaze, as the product or result of Splintering Dominion and Devotion?

So we have some creatures called Unmade, which I assume are splinters or Odium, simmilar to spren. I assume that most are more powerful, as they do not require a bond to cause magics to happen. (Death Rattles) Is there any more info on them, such as their sentience, numbers, or powers?

I was reading through the Words of Radiance reread on Tor.com, when I came to a line where it said that 'Brandon confirmed that the Wax and Wayne series occurs after SA5'. I had just finished rereading the Wax and Wayne series 2-3 days ago. And then it hit me like a load of bricks. Sazed is under assault by Trell and his minions who are trying to take down his planet. It was a sudden assault, and Sazed/Harmony is (as of Bands of Mourning) under a constant assault/pressure of some kind. Something he doesn't understand and that has just come recently. What if it's Odium - and what if it's because Odium is released from the Roshar system at the end of SA5. That somehow, someway, the bonds that Honour imposed on Odium, tying him down, are released at the end of SA5. Odium is cut loose, set free and goes to take on/take down Harmony. What do you guys think? Am I a truthwatcher, or just one of the ten fools?