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Okay, so I was reading the theorizing in general cosmere about how in the Gavilar prologue the Stormfather felt very different. I saw a lot of people saying it’s Ishar, something I agree with. This is gonna move along a few lines related to that, but starting with the point that made me post it here: 1) that reminds me of how Zellion talked about how his adherence to his oaths kept his Torment at bay at least somewhat. We know all Heralds are crazy, and one of the counterpoints to the “StormFaker is Ishar” theory was: ‘he’s far too lucid to be Ishar.’ But we know some of the Heralds insanity is magical in nature, which sounds, to me, not unlike a Torment. We know vast amounts of investiture (like a Radiant sweating an oath) and oaths, help Ishar overcome his insanity, again something reminiscent of Zellion’s Torment. He can summon his blade immediately after being in the sun, and could get past his Torment while following the oaths. Brandon said Sunlit Man had SA5 spoilers. My pitch is: StormFaker was Ishar, he was potentially bonded to the Stormfather (who said he “has experience with” Ishar) and/or he used his pre existing Bondsmith powers to highjack Gavilar/the Storm father’s budding connection and manipulate Gavilar. (We see that Dalinar can pull people into visions, I’m absolutely sure Ishar can do the same lolol). He could do all of this because HE was a Bondsmith/had sworn Bondsmith oaths, which ended after Chana (probably) and Gavilar died and the Stormfather decided to sever their bond, leading to his descent into full, unmitigated insanity which coincidentally started almost immediately after those two events. He also goes to get his sword right after these events, presumably because he wants his powers back, having lost them with his lost bond to SF. 2) that theory still works without Ishar being bonded to the Stormfather, especially because that could be a leap. (I think that the Stormfather said there hadn’t been a Bondsmith in centuries.) The other part of it though, hinges on Ishar having a Torment. All the Heralds are nuts, but it seems to ME like he’s extra nuts. And something like the Oathpact seems like the type of thing that could be created with Dawnshard level power. And we know the Dawnshards were both on Ashyn and all over Roshar, as is Ishar. So the second part of the theory is: Ishar’s insanity is part of/worsened by his Torment. Either because he’s a Herald or he held a dawnshard or both, he has a Torment which he can only overcome while a) following Radiant Oaths or b) around someone ELSE following radiant oaths or maybe c) around a TON of Investiture but that seems less likely cuz he’s nuts right by a perpendicularity. 3) more evidence for Ishar/SF bond I think is how easily Ishar (almost) takes the bond from Dalinar. He seems to know the connection well, as with the connection to Odium. We know that he now curses the Stormfather and that the Stormfather can still see him, something I’d argue is because of their potentially stronger connection now. I think it explains why the Stormfather is so jaded when it comes to trusting Dalinar as well. He’s just had a bad experience. That was a lot, so thank you if you read it, but if not: TL;DR: Ishar is the StormFaker cuz he bonded with the Stormfather and manipulated Gavilar. He held a Dawnshard at one point and now has a Torment. The SF bond suppressed the effects of his Torment, but losing the bond caused him to go crazy(er) after the Stormfather ended their bond post-Gavilar/Chana death. Tear apart my theory, provide feedback, lmk what you think!!:)

I haven’t seen this discussed in the forums yet, maybe it has been and I missed it. But I find this simply baffling. Anyone have a clue what this could possibly be about?

Ishar is a limitless bondsmith, so he manipulates any and all connections at will. Is there any possible scenario where Kelsier argues with Ishar? I wanted to know if he could solve our dear Thaidakar's problem or if this goes beyond his powers And thinking about it I have a question, can honorblades come out of roshar? If so, wouldn't it be likely that Ishar's blade was Mraze's goal the entire time? Following this reasoning, Ishar himself could leave the system

Did Ishar forge the Oathpact himself with the powers he recieved from Honour, or did Honour forge the Oathpact? Also, did Ishar create the Nahel bond, and if he did, did he do it around the same time?

Give we are told by ishar that he is trying to bring back the oathpack. Given that we are told several times that cognitive shadows are closer to Spren then they are to people. Given that the key difference between the Heralds and other connective creatures are there physical bodies. Given that we see ishar trying to give physical bodies to cognitive beings in the form of high Spren. Is ishar trying to figure out how to give a cognitive being a physical body? If so dose he intended to use this to create new Heralds to replace the old broken ones?

We have two characters that are continually brought up in the context of dueling - Taln and Adolin. Taln, being a herald and the last and maybe only that is still actively a part of the oathpact, has no reason to betray Dalinar, although he might be too lost to hold to it again, even if Dalinar somehow reforges the oathpact. I think we will see an arc where Dalinar convinces Taln to act as his champion, but Taln somehow becomes worse (Maybe following the death of another herald) and cannot function as the champion. I think this means that Adolin will try to step in. Another possibility I've been toying with is that T-Odium could argue for Adolin to represent him - the murder of Sadeas, the resentment for Dalinar, maybe Maya wakes up to him and tells him that what the Knights Radiant are doing is wrong. Adolin becomes Odiums Champion - maybe for a different type of contest, and Dalinar wins him back. Kind of like Star Wars on its head. Anyway thats all speculation, but what I'm curous is what the back 5 will focus on. We know that there will be a greater focus on the Heralds, and I think that means we will see the fall of Ashyn. I also think we will get a pivot for the villain, who Dalinar and potentially T-Odium will be working together to defeat: Ishar. Looking at the conflict, we see mirrors of events - the binding of the Thrill, the death of Jezrien. We see that Ba-Ado-Mishram having been locked away has fundamentally changed the previous singers. What have we not seen? Whatever the heck happened on Ashyn. We know that Ishar was there: What broke Ashyn? The powers of the Bondsmith: Bondsmith's unchained wrecked Ashyn. We get some clues from Rabonial as to what that entailed for the people there: So what happened on Ashyn? I think it has to do with the Unmade, who were made then unmade similar to what was happening to the Sibling in this book. Again, I think this was done by Ishar: I'm going to get into some Dawnshard spoilers here, so tagging up but I'll get out of there soon: Of all the Heralds, Ishar knew first hand the consequences of breaking oaths - for he was a connection sorcerer who had caused the floating cities of Ashyn to fall. He was the architect of the Oathpact - but also the architect of its deterioration: All of the other heralds we have seen basically state that Ishar is still sane, but we know that he is not from his own words We should not believe his words, even when he appears sane. I think Ishar was somehow connected to the bringing back of the voidspren too: We also know that he had been collecting spren, bringing them into the physical world for his sick experiments. So to wrap it up, I think Ishar is Mad. I think his madness was before his herald madness - that he's a mad scientist archetype, and that he will be the villain for the back 5. I also think there will still be a Taravang-ium redemption / de-escalation / needing to work with the Archetype of "God's Wrath", in the back 5 in order to protect the cosmere from whatever Ishar is doing.

In row ishar said " I only prepare for the end of worlds " emphasis on worlds could there be a bigger threat to everyone, even bigger than odium?

All spoilers - RoW, Dawnshard, Cosmere, WoB, r/cremposting, whispers of fictive headmates, etc: In a nutgreatshell: I propose that the herald Ishi and the radiant Melishi are one and the same. 1. MELISHI We know that Melishi was a Bondsmith prior to the Recreance. He was bonded to the Sibling. He enjoyed a position of authority among the Knights Radiant. He lead a strike team to capture Ba-ado-Mishram. He was warned that this would have unintended consequences. He ignored this warning. 2. ISHAR We know that Ishar was a Herald of the Almighty. He is currently the mad God-Priest of Tukar. He is obsessed with spren, the Nahel bond, and Connection in general. He is preposterously skilled in combat - far more than even the Blackthorn and several Knights Radiant. Before he was a Herald, he was a part of the development of surgebinding on Ashyn, which led to the destruction of Ashyn, and was part of the subsequent exodus of humans from Ashyn to Roshar. He is still studying the fundamental forces of the Cosmere with an eye towards their manipulation. 3. SIMILARITIES I mean, basically all of it? ISHI, MELISHI - their names are pretty dang similar. Both had positions of authority in the Knights Radiant - Melishi from the way he is spoken of in the Gem Archive, and the Knights Radiant being literally called "Ishar's Knights." Both are closely associated with Bondsmiths. Melishi was a Bondsmith (bonded to the Sibling), the historical Ishar was the Heraldic patron of Bondsmiths, and the modern Ishar tried to steal a Bondsmith's bond to the Stormfather. Both are closely associated with Connection. We really only know Melishi in the context of gems mentioning Ba-Ado-Mishram, who in another gem is specifically discussed in terms of majuscular Connection. Ishar, in RoW, is all about that Connection. Melishi captured Ba-Ado-Mishram in a perfect gem (much the way Dalinar does to The Thrill). Ishar is studying a new way to capture spren, one that involves less jewelry and The historical Ishar was part of the development of surgebinding on Ashyn. The modern Ishar is trying to mess with the fundamental forces of Roshar. Melishi messed with the fundamental forces by capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram. The historical Ishar was part of the exodus of humans from Ashyn to Roshar. The modern Ishar is studying the persistence of Invested entities outside of their home. (This is pretty close to what Restares is doing on Roshar, and what Thaidakar is doing on Scadrial.) In the same way, Melishi was studying how to stop Voidlight from getting from Braize to Roshar by means of a spren. These seem similar - even progressive, one two three. The historical Ishar was part of the Surgebinding investigations that destroyed Ashyn. Melishi was part of the spren-capturing that caused the False Desolation and turned the parshendi into parshmen. The modern Ishar is on his way to becoming the subject of a Behind The Bastards episode. This guy genocides. And I mean, the methods of his madness are bad enough, but his *goals* are probably even worse! The guy should really be the Herald of Ignoring Externalities. "Playing with forces too big for him to control" seems like his bag, baby. He answers the question: What if Lanfear was like "okay, so we've got this Bore. What if we bored a BIGGER bore and then put THAT Bore in THIS bore? Problem solved!" This guy probably has a coffee mug that says "That's a problem for Tomorrow Ishar!" OMG I hate him so much. 4. PROBLEMS From the Gem Archive, we are told: ""This generation has had only one Bondsmith[...]" This suggests that there are multiple, changing Bondsmiths. But it does not imply that it all Bondsmiths are new. Heck, it tells us clearly that the 'multiple' part is not constant. I expect that none of these parts are constant. A) Heralds can bond spren. Look at Nale. Heralds can lead their Order - again, Nale. C) Heralds are immortal. Look at... well, 9 of them. (Sorry Jezza) D) We know that Ishi is older than the Heralds themselves. He was definitely alive during the time Melishi was alive. E) Again, Ishar tried to steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather - but another way of saying that is, he tried to bond a Bondsmith spren himself. F) Back in the day, the Nahel bond was less permanent. Maya says that she thought the breaking of her Radiant bond would hurt, but would not kill her. This implies that it would have left her able to be re-bonded to a new person, making a new Knight Radiant - much as she is on the road to doing with Adorablin. By this same method, a bondsmith could well have bon G) We are told by the Gem Archive that "This generation has only one Bondsmith." It does not imply that this one Bondsmith hasn't been a Bondsmith for generations - since, indeed, the beginning. And it does not imply that, just because there's only one bondsmith, only one of the Bondsmith spren is bonded. A person can have more than one Nahel bond at once. And if anyone was ever to do this it would be Mr. Bondypants himself. H) As a result, Melishi could have been bonded to more than one of the Bondsmith spren - before his attack on Ba-Ado-Mishram, or even, during it. I) Storms, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that Ishar CREATED the Sibling - using his Bonding powers to combine Stormlight and Cultivationlight into a new "Bondsmith-level spren." (We need better vocabulary, here. Bondspren? Shardspren? Greatspren? Pleez halp.) J) Storms, I'm guessing that Ishi-Melishi is the one who created the Nahel bond entirely. 5. SIDE THEORY THAT'S TOTALLY BATSHIT, I KNOW Since Ba-Ado-Mishram was a Light-level spren, and the only other Light-level spren are the Bondsmith spren, I'm going to go ahead and suggest that Ba-Ado-Mishram could have been a Bondsmith-bondable spren. Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been a regular ol' spren of Odium, and her only association with Light was to forge a Connection between a Light-source - say Odium himself - and the parsh. Or, Ba-Ado-Mishram could have been the spren of Odium in the way the Stormfather is the spren of Honor, or the Nightwatcher the spren of Cultivation. BUT. What if Ba-Ado-Mishram was a spren like the Sibling - a meeting of the two? And what if, as I theorized about the Sibling, Ishar was involved in her creation? Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been a 'sibling' of Honor and Odium, or of Cultivation and Odium - creating a 'towerlight'-like blend of the two lights. Maybe the creation of such a blended greatspren was part of the Oathpact by which Odium and the Ashyn Refugees were allowed onto Roshar. Maybe there were two of them - three blended greatspren, in addition to one pure greatspren of Odium. Meaning there's one mixed greatspren, and one pure greatspren, that we have yet to meet - or at least to understand. If Ba-Ado-Mishram was a Bondsmith-spren, Ishi/Melishi could well have bonded her at one point - or indeed, could have been bonded to her even while he was imprisoning her. This might be the reason that the Sibling went into hiding, and refused to bond any new Radiant. His last Bondsmith had betrayed one of his other bonded spren! (Aside: I kind of wonder if the Sibling being tied to the Tower is actually not that far off from Ba-Ado-Mishram being trapped in a gem. But that's a bit metaphysical for the moment - save 4 l8r.) And, ifffff this is all true... ISHAR COULD STILL BE BONDED TO BA-ADO-MISHRAM. Still bonded. All this time! This could well be the reason that Ishar is so double extra super crazy at the moment. He could be bonded to a spren who is trapped in a gem and has been stuck underground for a few millennia. That's probably halfway to being trapped himself - halfway to being Taln. Probably not super awesome for the ol' mental health - just guessing. 6. PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER My guess is that the history/mechanics went something like this. -Ishar was a human living on Ashyn -He was interested in the Surges - kind of the way Dr Faustus was interested in the spirits, Dr Oppenheimer in the atom, Dr. Eronaile the Power, or the current Ishar in playing Dr. freakin' Mengele with living spren. -Odium tempted Ishar with the power to manipulate the fundamental surges -Ishar did so, creating Surgebinders - probably creating the Nahel bond as we know it. -In doing so, he also delved_too_deep.gif, and created such instability on Ashyn that the planet was rendered uninhabitable - all but destroyed. (Side note - the name "Ishar" is quite a bit like the "Ishtar" of Biblical times. There's a lot of cross-pollenation among old deities, and their names... but Ishtar is associated with the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve with the forbidden knowledge that saw them cast out of Paradise. RIP Tranquiline Halls.) -Odium then asked Honor and Cultivation if he, and his people, could flee to Roshar. The Avasts agreed, under the condition that Odium would stay on Braize and not do, y'know, Odium Stuff. This was the Oathpact. -The Oathpact was created, not just by the power of the Shards, but by the power of Ishar the Bondsmith. He created the rules of the Oathpact. -The reason Ishar was able to bind Shards to an agreement, is the same reason that he was able to bind spren of the cognitive to people of the physical by means of the Nahel bond. It's the same reason that he is all about that Connection and always has been. You see, Ishar is - or at least, was - a Dawnshard. It could be UNITE, as in UNITE THEM; or it could be BIND, as in Surgebinding, as in Bondsmith ("binding contract" sounds a lot like an Oathpact to this attorney.) I'm guessing it's BIND. -Specifically, Ishar was given th Dawnshard of Binding by Odium. And specifically, he was given it by Odium *specifically* so that it would lead to the ruination of Ashyn, so that Odium could play upon Honor and Cultivation's sympathies to admit his people to their system - and in doing so, let him in, to war upon them, and kill them. -Ishar then wrote the Oathpact, and Bound the parties to it. The problem, here, is that - pacts are hard. Words are hard. Hell, I'm a lawyer. Writing contracts is hard. Ambiguities are unavoidable, and can be exploited by other parties - and sometimes ambiguities can be hidden by the drafter to exploit themselves. Odium found, or made, those ambiguities, and exploited them - leading to the death of Tanavast, the splintering of Honor, and the cycle of Desolations. -Hell, Odium might have done this same trick to the other Shards he Splintered. The Bondsmith's power to turn human words into the laws of the Universe is as beautiful and terrible as the very dreams of the skybreakers. (When you've got the Hammer of Gods, everything looks like a Nale. Sorry. No, no I'm not.) -I don't understand the current status of the Dawnshard of Bind. I know it profoundly affects Dalinar. That's all I know. It could be held by the Stormfather. It could be hidden, but was held long enough by Bondsmith-related entities that it suffuses all that they are. But, if I had to guess, part of the Oathpact was that the Dawnshard of Binding was splintered into ten pieces, and divided amongst the Heralds, whose main goal was not to be interplanetary warlords, but simply keepers of a power that was too great to combine - and too dangerous for Honor and Cultivation to want anywhere near Roshar. The Heralds, as prison-guards of the power that destroyed their home planet, were then banished to Braize, and never meant to return. Then Odium went all rules lawyer on them, found mad sploits, and thus the endless cycle of free-trips-to-Damnation. -Whether by Ishar's bindings, or the natural reordering of the world after Odium's people came to Roshar, the Nahel bond became as tied to Voidlight as it was to Stormlight and Cultivationlight. My guess is that three spren were created to be co-equal blends of the Shards in the system. The spren who resides in Urithiru is part Honor, part Cultivation. That spren has two siblings: Ba-Ado-Mishram, and an as-yet-unnamed (or at least, as-yet-unidentified) spren, one of which is of Honor and Odium, the other of Cultivation and Odium. -As a result of stacking playing-god on top of playing-god, Ishar/Melishi's capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram stopped what could well have been the imminent conquest of Roshar by Odium. But in doing so - well, Lews Sealing The Bore. Prepare For Unforseen Consequences. OOPS I DID IT A GAIN. This deprived the parshmen of cognition, deprived the spren of the ability to survive the breaking of their bonds, and probably other things that we don't even understand, because THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STICK YOUR DICK IN THE UNIVERSE. And... storms, it is quite possible that the name Ba-Ado-Mishram is a sobriquet. "Ado" could come from "Adora," the same root as the first syllable in Adolin's name, meaning "light" - and "Mishram" contains "Ish" and even "Ishr," which could be linked to the Herald. Maybe there's a Ba-Ado-Mishram and a, idk, Tet-Ado-Mishram, indicating Honor/Odium-light and Cultivation/Odium-light (or vice versa). Heck, maybe the "Sibling" is actually like Asha-Ado-Mishram - three Siblings, created simultaneously by the powers of a Dawnshard, in the hopes of a harmony that Odium immediately sought to destroy. Three multi-shardic blends - three little Harmonys - three little Adonalsiums - simultaneously beautiful in their unity, and terrible in their return towards that which was Shattered. -The phrase UNITE THEM is probably just a general, all-encompassing idea of the Dawnshard of BINDING. It might even be a mixed version, resulting from the Intention of dead Tanavast and mere echoes of the splinitered Dawnshard. However, I doubt it will be satiated until it has united the splinters of itself (if such they are), and, indeed, the Shards of Adonalsium. -I expect that is Hoid's biggest interest in the Rosharan system - the unification of the shards of the Dawnshard of Binding, towards his ultimate goal of the reunification of Adonalsium. -...which interest could very well be at conflict with the best interests of Roshar. -And, as a result, the biggest single piece on the Rosharan chessboard is probably... Rysn. Because A] maybe the only way out of the BINDing Oathpact is to CHANGE it... and B] because my girl Rysn real good at contract negotiation. TEAM RYSN BABY. ALL ABOARD DAT WANDERSAIL! Best from Great Barrington, Massachusetts, where I am off-Trail hiding from a thunderclaststorm -Silver the Ridgerunner

I was wondering about the creepy stuff Ishar was doing with forcing sentient spren to enter the Physical Realm. First of all, I'm pretty sure that this is not the same as a spren manifesting, since Cryptics can obviously survive manifestation. Instead, he seems to be forcing them to become physical beings instead of cognitive. So then: What would happen if he did this to a bonded spren? Would the bond simply disappear, since it can't exist between 2 physical beings? Would they both be Surgebinders? Or would it be something else? The theory I came up with is ridiculous, but a fun idea: What if the Nahel bond is defined as between 1 cognitive and 1 physical being, so when Ishar shoves the spren into the Physical Realm, the Knight is conversely shoved into the Spiritual? It doesn't make sense, but it would be fun!

Though we've only seen him directly in a couple of scenes so far, I find Ishar one of the most intriguing of the Heralds and a character I'm very interested in figuring out more as Stormlight progresses. Most obviously because, though he doesn't get as discussed as often as, say, Jezrien, and isn't set to be a main POV character like Taln or Ash, almost every time he's mentioned we find out more of the major events of Roshar's history that he's had a hand in - seriously it seems like half the time a rock gets turned over regarding the history and lore of Roshar, we find him hiding under it. Whose experiments with the Dawnshards and/or the surges apparently led to the destruction of Ashyn? Ishar's. Who founded the Oathpact? Ishar did. Who became the Herald associated with the Bondsmiths, arguably the most powerful Radiant order? Ishar. Who enforced order on the proto-Radiants and was apparently already powerful enough to personally destroy them all if they refused? Ishar. Who convinced the other Heralds to abandon the Oathpact, or at least showed them how? Ishar. Who convinced Nale that he had to hunt down surgebinders to stop the coming of the Everstorm? Ishar (and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he also convinced Kalak to start the Sons of Honor, considering Kalak and Nale hung out at least occasionally). Who has Ash convinced he's the only Herald to still be sane and trustworthy, despite being a ranting megalomaniac? Ishar. Who's that Tukari warlord with a god complex who gets namedropped every now and again? Ishar. And who's apparently involved in some way with the Shin Stone Shamans? Ishar again. The point being, dude's had his fingers in a lot of pies, even for a Herald. And it seems like he was a very dangerous man even before he went all megalomaniacal. I, for one, have been suspicious of how often his name keeps cropping up from as early as Words of Radiance, and each further book only reinforces my belief that this is a guy to watch and be wary of. From what we see in Rhythm of War he's scary powerful and involved in some strange and creepy things (and I have a feeling we've only seen the tip of the iceberg regarding what he's really capable of). With Dalinar sending Kal and Szeth to bring him to heel it looks like he's being set up for an important role in book five - which, interestingly was originally supposed to be Dalinar's book (aka, the Bondsmith book). Personally, I don't trust even Ishar's moment of sanity; sane or mad, I think there's more going on with him than we've yet been privy too. Now, everything I mentioned above could be just the random acts of a madman, but personally, I'm inclined to doubt it- Ishar may be a madman, but he's also a genius, and I think he's got some sort of endgame in mind even if it doesn't make sense to anyone but him. Is his ranting about taking up Honor and Odium and becoming a new Adonalsim just the delusions of a megalomaniac, or does he actually have some sort of plan to achieve it, even if it probably won't work (he's not actually Honor's champion, for one). Or does sane!Ishar have some other plan that got buried under the character of Tezim the God-Priest? How has he convinced the other Heralds to listen to him - is he just more rational when the person he thinks is Odium's champion isn't around, or does he (as I've seen suggested) know some trick with Connection to make people trust him (which is incredibly creepy in its own right, if true)? Why is he experimenting on spren? Why does he want Dalinar to meet him in Shinovar specifically? And, perhaps most importantly of all, will he be dealt with in Book Five or will he continue to play a role (as an ally or an enemy) in the back half of the series? Personally, I've got a lot of thoughts, but few that feel like concrete answers. But I do think, one way or another, Ishar is going to have a very important role to play in how things unfold from here. Anyone else have thoughts on the Herald of Luck?

So far it seems as if Shallan and Adolins next step is to find BAM and release her, as they both have deadeye spren and Kalak indicated that BAM being captured lead to dead eyes. However there are only ten days left till the battle of champions and they are stuck in the middle of shadesmar, more than ten days away from the closest perpindicularity. So by that logic BAM is most likely in shadesmar and within ten days journey. Kalak was there for the capture of BAM so he could have her in shadesmar. But if he did he likely would have told Adolin and Shallan at the end of RoW when they all talked together about BAM, dead eyes, and Maya. However we know that another Herald was there at the capture of BAM other than Kalak. We know acording to maps and RoW that Lasting Integrity is on the between Tukar and Emul right near where Dalinar and Odiums forces faced each other, and where Dalinar talked to Ishar. AT the end of which Ishar went into the congnitive realm. So he is somewhere close to Lasting Integrity in the cognitive realm. I believe that Ishar was the other Herald there for the capturing of BAM and that the radiants gave him the perfect gem that holds BAM. Because if he has it, Shallan and Adolin could get it from him within the ten days as he is right outside Lasting Integrity. But there is more, near the end of RoW dead eyes started gathering outside Lasting Integrity. The honorspren said it was because they were finally going to get justice, but what if instead they were drawn to BAM. Because again acording to Kalak dead eyes only occured after BAM's capture and said that BAM was conected to all of Roshar including spren. So the dead eyes could still be connected to BAM enough that they are drawn to where she is. In that case it would mean that BAM was near the border of Tukar and Emul, right where Ishar was, waiting for Dalinar. In sumation, another Herald was at BAM's capture, dead eyes who only exist because of BAM's capture are flocking to Tukar and Emul's border where Ishar is, Ishar went through a perpindicularity and is now right outside Lasting Integrity, and there are only ten days left for Adolin and Shallan to find and free BAM. The only logical thing is that Ishar has BAM.

Wait! Ishar has been trying to bring spren into the physical realm. Kelsier is a CS and very similar to a spren. What would whatever Ishar is doing do to Kelsier? Would it bring him back to life? Will the Ghostbloods find out and try to steal his research to bring Kelsier out of the cognitive? I needed to get this out there in a moment of grand inspiration. Someone bring this up to BS tomorrow in the livestream if I am unable to! Edit: I was able to ask the question and get an answer, which was yes, this would help him, in a roundabout way.

Hi, I'm Dasak, I'm a non-native english speaker (I'm from Spain) new user, so I'm not sure if I can theorize this here or there is another place to do it (but I think this is the correct place). Firstly, I've been reading cosmere books from 2011 when I started reading 'The way of Kings', and it seduced me as a single book almost as 'The name of wind' did it before. So I was impressed when I discovered that he created not only a saga of novels, but also a group of sagas and short novels taking place in the same fantasy universe (in this case, the galaxy known as Cosmere). Now, there comes the spoiler of the 4th book, so those ones who haven't read it already, don't read the spoiler: I have a few more theories and meditations, but I will keep them in my mind until admins or other users answer me, telling if I can or cannot write them here. I think I did lots of grammatical mistakes, so I apologise for it. Best regards, Dídac

Hello! I've been trying to work out the timeline for the first events we know that happened in Roshar. We know the Singers "betrayed" the Spren and I am extremely curious! I don't think we have clues about what happened, but this is what we know: 1 - Roshar was inhabited by Singers and the shards Honour and Cultivation 2 - Humans arrive on Roshar after destroying their original planed with surgebinding. Ishar was a bondsmith and the one able to transport the people Odium came with them to Roshar Questions: how did investiture work in Ashyn? Via Honorblades? Did the Honorblades come from Ashyn? If so, why honor blades? 3 - Once the humans arrive, the Singers give then Shinnovar. 4 - We know eventually 2 things happen: Humans start conquering other regions War with the Singers, they betray the spren and loose their connection to them. Is this when the Fused and Unmade show up? 5 - The oath pact is made, the Heralds vanish Odium. Question: what happens with the singers between Desolations (before the false Desolation and imprisonment of BAM)? 6 - Spren imitate the honor blades and give surges to humans. Question: surges are based on Roshar´s surges, were Ashyn ´s the same? Or maybe, the Honorblades and Surges were created after humans came to Roshar... I think this makes more sense. 7 - The cycle of Desolations begin. Lets discuss if this timeline is correct (I'm probably forgetting something!) and what may have happened to make the Singers side with Odium.

So as we know, Ishar is up to some shenanigans, somehow manifesting spren into the physical realm. I think that he's trying to figure out how to get surgebinding powers from spren without bonding them. So he (somehow) manifests them physically and has a poke around inside them to see if it can be puzzled out. If this is his plan, I think he's doing this for one of three reasons. He's either: 1) Doing crazy things for no reason because he's as mad as a bucket of cremlings. 2) Looking to build himself an army of unoathed surgebinders. 3) Attempting to gain the use of more surges on top of those granted to him by his blade. But how? Well, we've seen his mastery over the surge of connection, so maybe he is either able or thinks he's able to somehow pull whatever it is that grants surges out of spren. The other, scarier option is that his 'surgery' is actually him experimenting with hemalurgy. Spike a spren into a human... What happens? Thoughts?

Why is Dalinar still talking about finding Ishar? I don't get the plan behind it. Ten days in which they need to find him they need to cure him they need to learn what he has to teach they have to train to use that knowledge in combat That is not doable. So what is the point in preparing Kaladin for a new mission right now, after what that man has just been through?

So Ishar is trying to pull spren from the Cognitive Realm into the Physical Realm. At first this seemed really random to me, like some kind of deranged concentration camp-style experimentation (which it definitely is), but it seems less random the more I think about it. (I will apologize in advance if this has already been mentioned elsewhere) Ishar (and Thaidakar) both seem very interested in escaping their limitations inherent in being cognitive shadows. I could be misremembering the lore (or maybe it hasn't been fleshed out yet - the pun in this statement is coming), but do the Heralds simply rematerialize new bodies each time they return from Braize? We know they don't possess a physical host like the Fused do, but there seems to be some strange disconnect (or unique quality) that allows them as cognitive shadows to ALSO be physically present in the Physical Realm. Then again, Braize is ALSO in the Physical Realm, so despite being Cognitive Shadows, they also fully exist in the Physical Realm. They are so immensely invested that they are no longer human, and are more akin to spren. This is why I suspect Ishar is experimenting on spren. Somehow the Heralds can practically be spren, but exist in the Physical Realm, with physical bodies, but spren do not seem to make this transition into physical bodies well (as evidenced by the contents of the tent). If this transition is causing physical decay for spren coming into the Physical Realm, I suspect a similar transition is what is causing cognitive decay for the Heralds existing as they do.

Ok, so I'm really, really glad Ishar showed up. Like when he was mentioned in OB I was pissed that nothing happened... but now I'm just like totally reeling after everything we've learned about and from him: 1. He recovered his Honorblade 1.1 He can literally just manipulate any connection?!?! The implications are insane To what extent can Dalinar do this? 1.2 The Shin serve the Unmade somehow? This connects to an earlier comment (can someone find it?) About an Unmade taking up residence in Shinovar 2. His insanity. He's delusional. But, like Taln, the perpendicularity inspired a lucid period. Why does the perpendicularity do this, but only sometimes? Is it the presence of Honor somehow? 2.1 He implies he wants to refound the Oathpact, during his lucid moment. Will this happen? I've heard it suggested that the series will end with a new oathpact refounded using the main characters as heralds, but it is frequently met with derision. I don't like this theory, for reasons i won't go into unless asked. However, considering the other twists in this book (looking at you, mr. T) I doubt Brandon will go with this approach. I do see this as plausible, however: 3. THE SPREN. THE DAMNATION SPREN. What. The. Actual. storm. ISHAR!!! why is he doing this? What is he even doing? How could he possibly do this? Is he manipulating connection somehow? I don't like it.

We know that ishar is try to give Spren for a way to give Spren bodies that can survive in the physical. And we know that he is looking for honor Spren to experiment on. And Kaliden is sent to look for ishar. Dose this sound like a chekhov's gun to you or am I over thinking it?

This post recapitulates a recent Discord debate on this topic. In honor of the late Justice Ginsburg, contrarian me dissents from the majority view. The issue concerns the meaning of the WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph: The debate asks these questions: What did Ishar do? Who did he do it to? How and when did the Oaths arise? COMPETING NARRATIVES Consensus Ishar “thrust organization” upon Surgebinders but did not impose the Oaths. Oaths inhere in each Order’s spren. Surgebinding required five Oaths even before Ishar. Within an Order each Knight and their spren agree on an Oath’s specific wording. “Perception is a big part of the Oaths.” Ishar’s “precepts and laws” were not magical but a set of mundane rules established for the Knights’ and each Order’s self-governance. Ishar threatened to kill any Surgebinder who wouldn’t accept his “precepts and laws.” Rebuttal Ishar’s Ashyn experience taught him how dangerous unchecked magical power can be. Recognizing Nahel bondable spren mimic Honorblades, Ishar insisted on an “organization” that mimicked the Oathpact. He created the Orders and imposed the First Oath, “Life Before Death...” (IMO, the Oathpact’s Oath). I think Ishar, perhaps with Shardic help, threatened to “destroy each and every one” to obtain their agreement: First the spren by forcibly breaking their bond while the Surgebinder lived, and then the former Surgebinder. Killing spren stops them bonding someone new. Killing former Surgebinders stops other like-minded spren from attempting to bond them. Honor wanted Dalinar to see the Nohadon vision for a reason. Alkavish’s revolt showed Nohadon “not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” A single Oath’s grant of full power to humans didn’t stop the pre-Desolation carnage. With so few humans left, spren would have to wait many human generations before they could return to the Physical Realm. Nohadon may have been a Bondsmith. Perhaps with Shardic help and “Way of Kings” inspiration, Nohadon persuaded each spren Order to add four unique Oaths and permanently change the bond. Spren might willingly accept Nohadon’s solution to avoid another spren-wide catastrophe. Five Oaths incrementally ratchet up the Knight’s power as the Knight, through epiphany and self-scrutiny, attains each ideal. Oaths mark that ideal’s attainment. Incremental power growth minimizes the damage a traitorous Knight can do. ARGUMENTS Consensus What Did Ishar Do? Ishar did not impose Oaths. Oaths don’t create “organization.” Even within an Order each Knight and their spren agree on their own version of the Oath “though the concept is the same.” Malata proves Oaths don’t constrain Knight behavior. Malata and Spark agree she made proper Oaths and is deservedly Radiant. Yet she and Spark spy on Dalinar and the other Knights and actively sabotage their plans. To quote one Discord post, “the Oaths don't stop people from misusing their powers, so long as they can justify it and the spren agree.” If Oaths don’t “organize” Surgebinders, Ishar’s “precepts and laws” must involve some non-magical change. Consensus believes Ishar created the rules for the Knights Radiant and each Order’s self-governance. They cite the Knights’ execution of Kazilah as an example of those rules’ enforcement (WoR Chapter 51 Epigraph). Consensus also argues even a powerful Bondsmith like Ishar can’t change a magic system. They believe imposing Oaths changes Surgebinding. Shards themselves don’t actively create magic systems. Magic systems are the unplanned result of Shard Investiture in a planet. Except for Leras and Sazed, we don’t know any Shards that changed a magic system. How can a non-Shard make these changes? Who Did Ishar Do It To? Consensus reads the WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph (quoted at the top) to mean that Ishar organized and imposed his precepts and laws solely on the human Surgebinders and threatened only them with death. How and When Did the Oaths Arise? Consensus believes Oaths arise from the nature of each spren Order. They cite the diversity of Oaths among spren Orders as evidence. The variability of Oath wording within an Order further proves that Oaths arise from the spren themselves. Consensus believes Surgebinding required five Oaths even before Ishar. Rebuttal What Did Ishar Do? I believe Nahel bondable spren evolved as personifications of the Heralds’ Divine Attributes. They are attracted to humans who manifest the Primary Divine Attribute. Oaths mark the Knight’s progress to the Secondary Divine Attribute. At the Fifth Oath, the Knight and their spren merge Spiritual aspects and the Knight now personifies their spren’s Divine Attributes. I agree with Consensus that All Oaths arise from the nature of Nahel bondable spren. Spren grant power to anyone who fulfills their Oaths. Spark grants Malata power because she is Brave. He chose her from among other Brave people because she too wants to settle grudges. Malata will progress through her Oaths as she gains insight into the Dustbringer Divine Attributes of Brave and Obedient. Nothing about that process mandates who Malata should be Brave for or Obedient to. Shards don’t intentionally create magic systems. IMO, these points of agreement don’t compel Consensus’ conclusions. Oaths are natural to Nahel spren because they grow directly from the Divine Attributes the spren personifies. That doesn’t make Oaths a necessary part of the Nahel bond. Syl and Kaladin show Oaths are not necessary to form an incipient bond, at least for honorspren. She grants Kaladin power before he vows the First Oath at the Tower. Other Orders differ on when to grant power. Syl and Kaladin, IMO, prove Oaths regulate power but are not necessary to enter a bond and grant power. No wonder seeing human Surgebinders scared Ishar. Unregulated, unorganized full Radiants without any understanding of their powers or the deeper meaning of their ideals? Ishar rightly feared Rosharan Apocalypse. I believe Ishar organized the Orders and imposed the First Oath but not the others. Who Did Ishar Do It To? I believe Ishar threatened spren, not mortal Surgebinders. Spren initiate the Nahel bond. Killing mortals wouldn’t stop spren from trying to bond other mortals through whom to experience the Physical Realm. To end human Surgebinding altogether, Ishar needed to break each spren’s bond while their Surgebinder was still alive. He probably also killed the human Surgebinder after the bond breaks to stop them attracting another spren. Faced with eternal mindlessness and mortal death, spren and Surgebinder agreed to accept Ishar’s Oath. Consensus claims Ishar’s Oath changes Surgebinding. They believe only a Shard can change a magic system, and Ishar is no Shard despite his godly ambitions. IIRC, we have no evidence a powerful magic user like Ishar can’t change a magic system. Adding the First Oath as an Initiation condition seems slight compared to Sazed’s Spiritual changes to snapping. Bondsmiths Connect things. The first and (until Dalinar?) most powerful Bondsmith should have some say in the Nahel bonds’ terms. Spren capitulation shows they thought Ishar could break a Nahel bond. If Ishar’s own power was insufficient to the task, Honor could have given Ishar what he lacked. The Stormfather says Honor shared Ishar’s fears. Notum hints Tanavast’s death makes spren less trustworthy, as if Tanavast himself enforced spren compliance. How and When Did the Oaths Arise? I think Ishar imposed the generic First Oath when Surgebinders began to appear. IMO, the Order-specific Oaths followed Alkavish’s revolt. Like Ishar before him, Nohadon somehow secured spren agreement to change the terms of the Nahel bond. The spren themselves were likely appalled at the human losses. Too many spren lost the human bond that Connected them to the Physical Realm. With so few humans left, spren would have to wait many human generations before they could return to the Physical Realm. Spren might willingly accept Nohadon’s solution to avoid another spren-wide catastrophe. Nohadon’s Way of Kings outlines each Order’s ideals. Perhaps that and Shardic mediation inspired spren compliance. CONCLUSION There’s the debate. Now vote...

TLDR: Ishar has always been nuts and Nale is right he survived with his mind just as it has always been. For some reason Nale and Ash both think that Ishar is the only one of them that has not gone insane. Nale even tells Szeth at the end of OB that "Only Ishar survived <the torture> with his mind intact". Everyone assumes the Heralds are just misguided and blindly trusting one of their leading thinkers and scholars. But what if they are not wrong? What if they've been right all along and Ishar has survived with mind intact? What if Ishar has always been a megalomaniacal psychopathic bastard?! It was his idea to ditch Taln. It was his idea to put rules on the Radiants, but maybe it was out of jealousy of their growing power displacing him as a deity. With the destruction of Ashyn they knew very well the dangers of surgebinding. What took them several Desolations to realize precautions were required, if that was in fact the reasoning for formalizing the Orders. Look at the endpage art of him Any takers on this nonsense? =) Just trying to shake things up with a different angle.

So, by far the most thorough vetting of who should get access to phenomenal cosmic power is to be found in the system of Surgebinding, those who became the Order of the Knights Radiant. We know that Honor created the Honorblades and gave them to his Heralds. We know that Ishar had a major hand in the creation of the Oathpact, which is why he is called the Binder of Gods. We know that he "thrust organization upon [surgebinder]" when he learned of their access to the Surges. He hoped that the Knights Radiant would help preserve humanity and its knowledge during the Desolations, and help rebuild civilization after the Decisions. He became the patron Herald of the Order of Bondsmiths. We know that spren recreated the powers granted by the Honorblades. Honor had no hand in this and was surprised. So... Who created the Ideals? We know that wielding Honorblades does not seem to require any oaths as we see with Szeth. So it's not inherent to the system of Investiture itself. So did the spren create the basis of the Ideals of the Knights they were to bond? Did Ishar craft the binding oaths so that the Surgebinders were generally chosen based on personal merit instead of happenstance and had to act within a structure? Did Honor craft the Ideals of the Knights Radiant? And if he did, Cultivation probably had a hand in it too... The themes of bonding, swearing oaths, personal growth meshes so well with their Intent Did the first Bondsmiths create the Ideals? Do we have any mentions or hints in the books? Any WoBs?

@Argent's “The Magics of Roshar” topic speculates that the Fifth Oath fully merges Knights Radiant and their spren. Further speculation suggests a Fifth Oath Radiant becomes the equivalent of a Herald with Honorblade who can pull Investiture directly from the Spiritual Realm. I generally agree with this speculation. @Jofwu on that thread asks this question: The answer may lie in what Nale tells Szeth: Nale says the Oathpact is “balanced.” I read him to mean there’s only one Herald per divine attribute. Fifth Oath Radiants could upset that balance and weaken the Oathpact. The “measures we took” seems a reference to Taln. Ishar fears Fifth Oath Radiants might somehow disable Taln’s Desolation defense. While Honor lived, he could decline to accept Radiant Fifth Oaths. The Stormfather, who replaced Honor, has yet to decline any oath. Nale kills incipient Radiants to ensure they never rival Heralds. Ishar’s threatening letter to Dalinar fits this concern. Ishar doesn’t want a rival Bondsmith wielding the “power of Connection.” Crazy is as crazy does.

Hello! Fairly new to the Shard and this is my first post. I apologize if this topic has been covered but I searched and couldn't find a direct answer. I have recently finished my third listen of Oathbringer and started thinking about greater implications of Odium's creepy new dagger. If Ishar is killed (for real) by this dagger, will the requirement of Oaths become removed from the nahel bond? Since Honor is dead, it seems like the rules of being a Radiant are already starting to flex and bend more and more, what with the Skybreakers literally fighting for Odium, or Malata and her very anti-social spren who seem largely intent on destruction for its own sake. However, it seems like the first Oath is still required for the bond to form, regardless of the difference of other higher Oaths. Since Ishar was the one who decided to implement the Knights Radiant and lay down this codification of Oaths, would his death lead to the relaxation of this requirement? Would we get the problems on Roshar that Nohadon speaks of in Dalinar's flashbacks, with surgebinders that can bond spren in a more private contract between just the two of them, allowing someone who is less-than-nice to wield great powers? Would this in turn actually cause the destruction of Roshar - as feared by Honor in his last days - due to surgebinding? It seems like Honorspren have always largely been rather strict with their bonded human partners, but I get the sense other spren wouldn't be nearly so choosy or demanding unless they had to be. And if Ishar isn't the one holding the collective Radiant spren to the necessity of Oaths, then what is? I get the impression that the spren aren't exactly all in a unanimous vote with one another about most things. What else, aside from divine/semi-divine will, could cause all of them to agree on Oath requirements? The other option could, of course, be that Cultivation would hold everyone to the Oaths regardless of Ishar living or not, but she's so mysterious and rarely seems interested in interfering with humans in a large, authoritative oversight kind of way. I'm really hoping one or more of you clever people have some answers or ideas!

Who do you guys think would win? Lord ruler has no atium. The Heralds are Stormlight boosted by Ishar. Basically Immortal Fullborn or Immortal Heralds.