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  1. Here’s the bare bones of the argument: Kaladin compares the listeners’ honor with that of humans. Humans are hateful and always at war. Listeners won’t harm a disabled combatant. Roshar’s humans seem to reflect Earth’s diversity: dark-skinned, brown-skinned, light-skinned; blond, brown, red and black hair; every eye color. On a planet with only one continent and no impassable mountains? The result of such human variability is the problem of the “other” – someone who is different from us, who therefore is to be feared and hated. More hatred, just as Kaladin sees, hatred he himself feels towards “others” – the lighteyes. The presence of the listeners compounds the “other” problem. Other threads have noted that the listeners are like Native Americans, driven to the verge of extinction by rapacious Europeans. Whose interest is it to have men fight men and listeners, to try to create more hateful ideas, more opportunities to grow his power? Any Shards we know, Mr. Odium? And whose interest is it to eliminate such fighting, to eliminate the means by which hatred is spread, Mr. Honor? To kill all hateful humans in genocidal events called Desolations… HONOR has more reason than Odium to cause the Desolations, to wipe out humanity’s rapacity. Odium wants to create the Everstorm, the TRUE Desolation. But Odium would rather humans keep on killing each other until then. And if this “bare bones” argument hasn’t persuaded you yet, consider that “honor” is a conservative social force, often keeping people in their place because the ruling class thinks “it’s the right thing to do.” Honor’s mandate (intent) is Relationships – organization. (See my “Mandates of the Known Shards” post.) Honor prefers stable relationships rather than the turmoil of war fostered by Odium’s Aggression mandate. If hatred causes men to fight, Honor might well tear down an entire societal structure and start again. Hence, Desolations. Hence, little technological growth, arguably regression. Hence, stratified, reified societies. Blame Honor, not Odium.
  2. The desolations start when the heralds break under torture. What exactly does that mean? Personally, I think it means they lose their honour. They're the champions of Honour, and the Enemies of Odium. They 'break' when they feel hatred for their tormentors. They're meant to be an ideal that Humanity strives toward. So when Odium makes them feel hatred, he's allowed to attack Humanity.
  3. Now this is a theory that is mostly based on speculation but I wanted to see what other people think of it. Warning mindless rambling may happen at times, just stay with me. Now lets get to it. The Oathpact. We don't know much about it but I will quickly summarize what we do know. It is an oath by the Heralds that returns them to Roshar with each desolation Whenever the heralds are not on Roshar they are tortured It has been in effect for a long time- "Centuries, perhaps millennia" The Oathpact was broken The enemy who is most likely Odium was bound by it Honor is the one who most likely initiated it While that isn't much to go on I'm going to talk about not only how it effects the heralds, but also how that may have effected the Rosharian ecosystem, specifically the starting the highstorms. Now I'll start with a simple explanation of how the Heralds are important in the oathpact: I believe that they may have become bound to Odium. Now this would explain why they are tortured, after all what else would an entity literally named Hatred do to it's enemy's? Now the reason I was lead to this conclusion was in part because of the fact that shards tend to behave according to the principle of intent. (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/369-theory-the-principle-of-intent/) Now Torture is not Honorable, and I would love to hear anyone argue otherwise. But Odium is more than capable of torturing people. In fact he probably does it for fun. I mean if you hate someone then you want to torture them so it fits his personality perfectly. Now I hope I haven't lost you because this is where it gets interesting. What if Honor, Cultivation, and Odium were all originally on Roshar? Now Odium hates everything, or at least he probably does. So Honor and Cultivation, in order to create a society that wasn't constantly in danger of being destroyed, they had to get rid of Odium. So give odium something to focus all his hate on, preferably something he knows that you like (the heralds) and give him his own planet and then hope he leaves yours alone. And if he ever comes back make him bring back the Heralds. It's like giving the bully at school your toy and then just pulling out a different one after he leaves. Now Odium Isn't stupid so I'm sure he threw in some of his own conditions, namely getting to leave a small part of himself on Roshar mainly in the form of voidspren. Now that probably seemed like a good deal, after all what could things with no, or at least very little, physical form do? Well a lot as it turns out. Odium could insert the voidspren into the listeners and take control of them, like how Ruin uses hemalurgy. But every time he moved enough of his sentience to Roshar to control the listeners, then the Heralds would return to. This would explain why they always show up right before a desolation, and also why leaving just one of them could end the desolations, Odium still has one of them to Hate. And perhaps having only one of them return stuck Odium in a sort of limbo. He couldn't fully leave because he didn't have all the heralds but he also couldn't return because he couldn't bring the heralds with him as they were already their. Now all of this ties into highstorms because when Odium returned the first time Honor needed a weapon to fight back with. So give the heralds the ability to access surges(the spren) and give them readily available fuel to power those surges(stormlight). Now I know their will be those who say "well what makes you say that?" "why couldn't there have always been highstorms?" Well the answer to that is that Roshar was once much more earthlike. Shinovar across the whole planet kind of deal. This would explain how there were humans in the first place. Shards have access to a lot of knowledge about the workings of the world. Don't believe me, go read what Sazed writes in the Hero of Ages. My point is Cultivation and Honor wouldn't put something as vulnerable as Humans on a land where everything is constantly buffeted by storms that are as big as a continent and as powerful as, well huricane times ten. Therefore Highstorms must come after humanity and since the Heralds were the first of humanity... well you get the point. Shinovar is the only part of Roshar sheltered from the Highstorms and that is the reason it is so earthlike. Sinovar did not evolve to become earthlike. everything else evolved to weather the storms. I know there isn't much evidence to support that but it's the best theory I could come up with so feel free to poke holes and give me feedback.
  4. This is a theory/speculation (mostly speculation) thread as to the final identities of the champions of Honor and Odium. I'll start first. I think that Kaladin will be Honor's champion. Kaladin has quite obviously experienced some supernatural force influencing his life, outside of his bond with Syl (and the Stormfather). Not including Bridge 4, the amount of times that he's been the only survivor is quite ridiculous. He was spared by Amaram and at least 2 or 3 other owners (after violent escape attempts). With his history and Amaram's values, that should not have happened. In addition, he exudes some unnamable characteristic that EVERYBODY notices. While this might just be a fantastic prescence, I do think that he's being watched over by some outside power (other than Syl). Also, I really don't want Dalinar to be Honor's champion. I just really don't. For Odium's champion, I'm going to wager that it will be a human and not a listener who ends up taking the role. I know that Eshonai (or her sister) is the most sensible and logical pick, but I really think that the Champion will be a corrupted human. I'm really hoping that Amaram will wind up being Odium's champion. With Dalinar's sting and the eventual news that Kaladin's an honorblade-wielding radiant, Amaram is going to be ANGRY!!! We already saw him resent his "mercy" and loss of Dalinar's friendship. Odium will use this anger to corrupt him and turn him into his champion. However, my largest reason for picking these two is that I'm just looking forward to a climactic Kaladin vs Amaram battle (with Kaladin winning, of course). Who are you guys expecting the two champions to be?
  5. Each Shard has an intent. Many of these intents contradict each other, sometimes prompting battles between Shards. What was Adonalsium's intent? It might have had no intent, since the intents would have canceled each other out, or it might have had all 16 intents at once. This would cause Adonalsium to always be in conflict with itself. Given the strength of the intents of the Shards that we have seen, it would also be in extreme agony, and never actually be able to do anything. A solution to that situation would be for Adonalsium to shatter itself, hence my theory.
  6. Per a recommendation, I'm starting a new topic with this theory. THEORY: So, I've been thinking about a lot of stuff, and one theory I had was that Honor's physical manifestation of power on Roshar might actually be the Honorblades themselves. They are kind of hidden in plain sight, and I don't think we know where they came from originally. Honor might give of himself to create something that helps mankind fight the Desolations/Odium. Mistborn spoiler: Also to quote Syl from Chapter 87, page 1045, of Words of Radiance: That might explain why Spren were so interested in copying the Honorblades when making Shardblades. Edit 4/16/2015: Added quote from Syl
  7. When the shard Honor was splintered, its holder may have survived for a time. The implications of this are vast, I think.
  8. I have this theory about the Oathpact and the reason for the torture of Heralds, the death of Honor, the reason for the Desolations, and the origin of Honorblades that I don't think anyone else has already stated. First, I'll start with a couple references from Mistborn: In Chapter 57 of Mistborn:HoA, Ruin says this: And throughout the book it's made clear that Preservation's sacrifice was only a temporary solution that caused him to give up his mind, but would eventually allow Ruin to escape his prison. Also, in chapter 81 of HoA, Vin was able to use the power of Preservation to push back against Ruin causing her divine body to tremble in pain and agony and eventually die. I know Vin didn't trap Ruin this way, but I'm just pointing out that she hindered Ruin and that fighting a god causes pain - at least when the gods are so opposed. To me, this sounds a lot like the Oathpact. It's called a bargain, instead of a pact, but they mean almost the same thing. There is pain involved. A god must give of themself. A god eventually dies as a result. A god is trapped/imprisoned or hindered in some way. It's a temporary solution. Now, what if Honor and the the Heralds figured out a way to trap (or at least hinder) Odium and make it closer to permanent? Instead of Honor suffering agony for thousands of years (just like Preservation), dieing, and Odium eventually escaping (or regaining full power), the Heralds agreed to endure the pain in place of Honor (how this was accomplished will be discussed below). And what if by doing so, they prevented/delayed Honor's death? There was some kind of bargain (Oathpact) between Honor and Odium that trapped/hindered Odium temporarily, but caused Honor to die, after a few thousand years of agony, in the process. Afterall, would it not be honorable to give up your life to save the lives of the entire world? However, Odium was tricked because of the intervention of the Heralds (this might be considered dishonorable though, so Honor would not be involved in the trick). Odium still escaped his prison (or regained his full power) every few thousand years and it caused a Desolation. He is defeated and re-imprisoned; the Heralds return to the place of torment; and Honor still lives as a result. Now, I know Taln was still being tortured after the "last" Desolation, but what if that wasn't enough to save Honor's life this time, so he died or splintered. There is speculation that this is what caused the Recreance. Finally, I think this original Oathpact is what forged the Honorblades - their origin being hidden in plain sight. Honor had to give of himself to trap/hinder Odium, and the Honorblades are the physical manifestation of Honor's power - much like the Mist is the physical manifestation of Preservation's power or Atium is Ruin's. These Honorblades were given to the Heralds to grant them great power during the eventual escape of Odium. But in the process, because they held pieces of Honor's "body," they endured great torture when they were in the place of torment. I believe that place of torment is one and the same as Odium's prison. Holding an Honorblade and being in Odium's prison at the same time is excruciatingly painful, but it saved Honor's life - until the Heralds (except for Taln) failed to return the last time. Any thoughts, flaws, additions? Edit: modified for clarity and to address some of the comments below
  9. So my theory as to how the shattered plains shattered comes from reading Elantris and thinking about similarities between shardworlds and magic systems. We know that at least three shards have been splintered by Odium. Dominion and Devotion on Sel and Honor on Roshar. On both planets that Odium killed a Shardholder there was a devastating earthquake that broke the land. Sel presumably works like a regular planet and therefore has plate tectonics and fault lines so when one of the Shards was splintered it caused the land to break down a fault line leading to the rift in the middle of the southern continent. Roshar has land that is built up over time by crem deposits and worn down over time by the storms and therefore a massive energy burst might radiate out in a cymatic pattern like the shattered plains. It was not Ahairaitiem (I've no idea how to spell it with the Coppermind down) that shattered the land around Stormseat (btw if the storms come from Honor wouldn't Honor's home be at Stormseat) but the splintering of Honor. There were many desolations and there are no other places on Roshar with Cymatic lines nearly as obvious as the Shattered plains although many of the cities have cymatic patterns in their geography. On Sel the massive chasm that opened suddenly that shook an entire continent may have been caused by the splintering of Devotion or Dominion. It is a possible solution and I don't think we have enough information to know for sure but it is a possible explanation that elastically fits the evidence. As for why this didn't happen at the death of Ruin or preservation I have an idea. It's possible that it only happens when a shard is splintered and not when a shardholder dies, although the Scadrial was shaking badly already at the point of Vin's and Ruin's death and when Preservation died he was very weak and had given most of his power away.
  10. I wonder if this means that at the end of the fifth book, they manage to revive/speak to Honor (or the Stormfather). And maybe the only way to stop Odium is for Honor to sacrifice himself, and he refuses. Or a more sinister interpretation: The First Ideal calls for Life Before Death. Possibly one of the new KR needs to sacrifice himself, but, unknowingly, chooses to live and so fails. It's also suspicious how it trails off, like there might be more to it. "The choice of honor is life..." but they chose death? ...life before death? Ideas? Am I crazy?
  11. "Shardpool is a non-canon termused to describe a liquid essence of Shard. It is characterized by a Shard's Cognitive aspect." - coppermind.net/wiki/shardpool From what I can tell, for every Shard, there seems to be a Shardpool. I don't think I've seen a list, however, of the "known" Shardpools. Here's a list of Shardpools and their locations from what I can theorize. Feel free to give your thoughts and/or additions. Nalthis (Warbreaker) Shard: Endowment Shardpool: Beneath Hallandren? (Something to do with the Tears of Edgli?) Scadrial (Mistborn) Shards: Ruin, Preservation, [Harmony] Shardpools: Ruin: Dark lake beneath the Pits of Hathsin || Preservation: The Well of Ascension || Harmony: N/A (Not one of the original Shards, and relatively new) Sel (Elantris, The Emperor's Soul) Shards: Devotion, Dominion Shardpools: Devotion: The Lake (The Pool) || Dominion: Swamps of Dzhamar Roshar (The Stormlight Archives) Shards: Honor, Cultivation Shardpools: Honor: Emerald Pools (Horneater Peaks) || Cultivation: The Purelake
  12. "Honor is dead. But I'll see what I can do." My foreshadowing bells are going off... (Just to be clear, this is supported by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING besides that line. It's verbatim from WoR, right at the end of chapter 56.)
  13. I wonder if in the end, in order to stop Odium, the Stormfather and Nightwatcher are going to have to sacrifice themselves to force their Intents onto Rayse. We know that if a Shardholder dies, the power itself will eventually gain sentience. If a Shard is Splintered, those Splinters can also gain sentience. So just killing/Splintering Odium wouldn't be very useful, unless having hundreds of little pieces of Hatred running around is a good thing But if the Stormfater and the Nightwatcher, joined their powers in with what Rayse already has, then his Hatred would be tempered with Honor and Cultivation (which implies protecting/growing). In the Chapter 71 Epigraph, we have this: So if he is reunited with some of those virtues, it stands to reason he might then become a reasonable Shardholder, who would no longer run rampant across the cosmere. Thoughts?
  14. This will probably be a long theory, and it might not make sense at the beginning, but just bear with me. Okay, here is my theory: Surgebinding is of both Honor and Cultivation, but some orders are primarily related to Honor and some are primarily related to Cultivation. Okay, so what do we know about Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers? For one thing, we know Dalinar is a Bondsmith. Renarin is a Truthwatcher. (Ym is as well, but we're not talking about him.) Alright, so refer to the Ten Essences Chart and you'll find out that Ishar's (and therefore Dalinar's) divine attributes are Pious and Guiding. This makes sense, as Dalinar is strict about obeying the Alethi Codes of War and following the Knights Radiant (Pious) and makes decisions and tries to set an example for the other Highprinces (Guiding). Paliah's (and therefore Renarin's) divine attributes are Learned and Giving. Again, this makes sense, as Renarin is always eager to learn (Learned) and helps others out (Giving). Looking at the Essences Chart, you will also notice that Ishar's soulcasting properties are meat and flesh, while Paliah's are wood, plants, and moss. It seems as if Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are kind of opposite orders, especially since they are the two orders directly across from each other in the middle of the Knights Radiant Orders Table: Yeah, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are basically opposites. So what? Ah, excellent question. And that's where we get deep into this matter. What happens to Dalinar that happens to nobody else? During the Highstorms, he has visions of the past. Visions of Honor, if I may add. And what happens to Renarin that happens to nobody else? During the Highstorms, he has visions... of the future. And which shard does Honor say is good at foretelling of the future? If that weren't enough proof, let's look at Truthwatcher's and Bondsmith's Surges. Truthwatchers have the Surges of Progression and Illumination. Progression has to deal with healing and growing, and, coincidentally, the word "Cultivation" has to deal with growing plants. Illumination has to deal with sight and seeing, two things that Cultivation is apparently good at. On the other hand, Bondsmiths have the Surges of Adhesion and Tension. Adhesion has the ability to bond things together, which is Honor's Intent. We don't exactly know what Tension does, but if this theory is true, it will likely have something to deal with bonds. If we split the KR chart into two halves (top and bottom), you get five orders of Honor-based Surgebinders and five orders of Cultivation-based Surgebinders. Another one of the Honor-based Surges, Gravitation, deals with altering an object's Spiritual bond towards the ground. The fourth (and last) of the "Honor-Surges" would be Cohesion, which, again, we know little about. Since we don't know Cultivation's Intent, it is difficult to prove whether the other two Cultivation-Surges (Abrasion and Transformation) are related to Cultivation. There's also Division and Transportation, the two Surges split between Honor and Cultivation. My personal theory with the Surge of Division is that it is similar to how Ruin and Preservation worked together to create life on Scadrial. Instead of Ruin and Preservation, though, Honor and Cultivation worked together to do something normally against their (or at least Honor's) Intent. Also, as stated above, the soulcasting materials corresponding with Paliah and Truthwatchers are wood, plants, and moss, which are all related to the meaning of the word Cultivation. Honor likely created the creatures of Roshar; Cultivation created the plants. If you need any more proof, look at the KR Orders Table above, and look at the border. The top half of the border (Honor's) is red, and has only male Heralds. The bottom half (Cultivation's) is blue, and has only female Heralds. Coincidence? I don't think so... So if this is true, what does it mean? I think that it means that some of the Radiantspren (and perhaps regular spren) are more of Honor, and some are more of Cultivation. This explains why Wyndle thinks of the Nightwatcher as his mother, and why Syl identifies herself with Honor and the Stormfather. I also wonder what this means for the other 20 magic systems of Roshar. Could Voidbinding be a combination of Cultivation and Odium? In that case, what magic system is caused by Honor and Odium? So, does this theory seem sound? And what does this mean for our knowledge of the Cosmere?
  15. THEORY IN BRIEF I believe the Surges keep Odium captive in the Rosharian planetary system. As part of his long-term plan, Odium causes the listeners to create the Everstorm. The Everstorm will block the Highstorms’ reinvestment of Stormlight on Roshar. Without that reinvestment, the Surges will not be able to renew themselves. Roshar will break apart, and Odium will be free to leave the Roshar system. While the Everstorm circles, the human and other survivors will find themselves besieged in Urithiru surrounded by the Voidbringer hosts. Urithiru’s Stormlight resources will be severely depleted. To restore them, Kaladin will break free of the siege, travel to the Origin, and bring back to Urithiru substantial new Stormlight reserves. Urithiru will then be capable of fighting the Voidbringers and holding out far longer than Odium expects. Odium, fearing he may lose this war, will be forced to accept the challenge of a duel of champions. Kaladin will defeat Odium’s champion, reestablishing Odium’s captivity. “TANAVAST’S DESIGN” OF ODIUM’S CAPTIVITY The Rosharian System Imprisons Odium The writer of the “second letter” claims Odium cannot leave the Rosharian system: “Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited.” (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 69.) The writer is unsure “[w]hether this was Tanavast’s design or not…” (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 70.) The Surges Form the Prison The WoR Ars Arcanum author believes the ten Surges – “thought to be the fundamental forces by which [Roshar] operates – are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant, by their bonds.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 1084.) The in-world Words of Radiance author describes the Surges as “the bonds that drive Roshar itself.” (WoR Epigraph to Chapter 38, emphasis added.) If the Surges do not accurately describe the “fundamental forces” of Roshar, then Honor must have had some other reason for placing them on Roshar. Whether by design or not, the result of their creation was to imprison Odium in the Rosharian system. Evidence The best proof that the Surges imprison Odium is the action he takes to escape his captivity. That is the Everstorm. Honor fears the Everstorm will cause Roshar to fall into dust. (WoK Paperback, pp. 1244-45.). That is the expected result when the “bonds that drive Roshar itself” – that literally hold the planet together – are stripped away. Odium has no other reason to destroy Roshar. If he simply wanted to splinter Cultivation, he does not need to destroy Roshar to do so. He did not destroy Sel when he splintered Devotion and Dominion there and he did not previously destroy Roshar when he splintered Honor. The destruction of Roshar is simply the by-product of the elimination of the Surges. That is why I conclude that the Surges are the instruments of Odium’s captivity. ODIUM’S PLAN TO FREE HIMSELF Stormlight Reinvests Roshar’s Magic, Including the Surges Odium’s plan is to interrupt the cycle of magical reinvestment on Roshar, causing the Surges to fail. WoB (somewhere) states that magical investiture is generally a renewable resource. On Roshar, Stormlight is the means of that renewal. Kaladin describes Stormlight as “the Surges reduced to some primal form.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 469.) WoB analogizes Stormlight to the mist in Mistborn, It is the gaseous state of Honor’s (and Cultivation’s?) investiture on Roshar. Two Elements to Odium’s Plan Odium’s plan has two broad elements. The first is to soak up existing Stormlight through the creation of a horde of Voidbringers. Voidbringers, according to Szeth, can “hold [stormlight] in perfectly” (WoK Paperback, p. 13). The second element is to block the Highstorms’ reinvestment of Stormlight. The Everstorm accomplishes both elements. The Everstorm will gain strength with each of its revolutions around Roshar. Its next pass will convert the Parshmen into Stormform listeners. During future passes, these new listeners will add their song to what the Shattered Plains listeners started, increasing the size and scope of the Everstorm. In his dream Kaladin sees the Everstorm as “so enormous as to make the continent – the world itself – into nothing by comparison“ – much bigger than when the Everstorm began on the Shattered Plains. (WoR Hardback, p. 369, emphasis in original.) Because the Everstorm moves in the opposite direction from the Highstorms, as it grows in force it will first prevent the Highstorms from reaching the Rosharian continent. Eventually the Everstorm may prevent Highstorms from forming at all, blowing them away at their birth. WoB states Highstorms were initially a meteorological event, but at some point became magical as well, presumably through the addition of Stormlight. We don’t know how Stormlight gets added to the Highstorms, although it’s a safe guess that that occurs at the Origin. Regardless, it seems reasonable to assume that a catastrophic storm multiples larger than a Highstorm should be able to kill a Highstorm in its cradle. The Diagram’s Prediction Taravangian’s Diagram seems to agree that the Everstorm is Odium’s path to freedom: "destroy [the listeners] outright before [one of them] obtains their power. ​It will form a bridge." (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 89, reformatted and emphasis added.) I interpret this statement to mean the Everstorm (created by the listeners’ “power”) is the bridge by which Odium will escape the Rosharian system. Odium’s Plan to Destroy Surgebinders Part of Odium’s plan has been to thwart or destroy those who might oppose him – Surgebinders: the Heralds and the KR. Odium has used several tactics to implement this stratagem: First, he influenced nine of the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact (as many in this Forum have speculated). Second, I believe Odium caused the Recreance (whatever its apparent immediate cause) to break up the KR and eliminate them. Third, he influenced Nale to kill fledging surgebinders (as many in this Forum have speculated) so the KR could not reestablish itself. Fourth, he caused the listeners to create the Everstorm. If the Everstorm can eliminate Stormlight, neither the Heralds nor the KR will be able to surgebind, When Odium first set upon his plan, he was dealing only with the Heralds, inefficient users of Stormlight through their Honorblades. The spren, perhaps in anticipation of the Everstorm, created the Nahel bond with humans, a much more efficient means of using Stormlight and, hence, the Surges. This flaw in Odium’s plan enables the KR to hold out longer than Odium expects during the Siege of Urithiru. Odium’s Plan Began Many Millenia Ago Odium has been planning for the Everstorm a long time. The Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Everstorm is “a new thing, but old of design.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 1070.) The Desolations began as a war by one of Roshar’s native populations, the listeners, to repel the human invaders of Roshar. WoB states there were no Desolations before humans came to Roshar. The humans won these wars, evicting the listeners from more and more territory. Hatred of humans led some of the listeners to become “unmade” by Odium into his creatures. These listener “gods” introduced the forms of power. Through these forms, Odium began to wield influence among the listeners. Further losses to humans over the millennia led the Lost Legion to abandon their gods. Before the final battle of the Last Desolation, Melishi the Bondsmith developed his plan to enslave listeners by stripping them of their spren rather than destroying them (or so many suspect). I believe Odium influenced Melishi to adopt this plan so that Odium would have potential Stormform listeners available to him when the time came. There has been no Desolation for the past four millennia because Odium realized he didn’t need to cause one – that humankind itself was capable of sufficient hatred without external influence. Thus, Honor tells Dalinar that “[Odium]’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another…” (WoK Paperback, p. 1246, emphasis in original.) Human forgetfulness has made them ignore Parshmen until the time comes for Odium to use them. Recent Events Gavilar came into contact with descendants of the Lost Legion a year or two before SA began. We can assume he found the black stone that he gave to Szeth at about the same time, since that is when Gavilar “changed” (according to several characters). WoB states that the light in that stone is not Stormlight and heavily implies it is a form of Odium’s investiture. Part of Gavilar’s changed behavior was to become more religious. He also joined/founded the Sons of Honor, with Amaram. Their goal was to bring back the Voidbringers so the Heralds would return. I believe Odium influenced Gavilar in these respects. I also believe Odium influenced Gavilar to share his plan with the visiting listeners, anticipating the listeners would assassinate Gavilar and start the War of Vengeance. (Perhaps it will turn out that Amaram suggested to Gavilar that he do this.) The war reduced the listeners to a state where they were willing to embrace the Everstorm. Odium influenced Venli to re-discover Stormform rather than the forms of peace, as Eshonai expected. We know the rest... HOW ODIUM WILL BE DEFEATED It begins with the re-founding of the KR and their re-occupation of Urithiru. I believe Honor’s plea to Dalinar to “unite them” has multiple levels: unite the KR, unite all humankind, and unite all of Roshar’s peoples, ancient and nouveau. Honor binds, hatred divides – a strong theme of SA. All will join in the war, including some of the Heralds, eventually finding their way to Urithiru. Honor says to Dalinar: “The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows. You must prepare. Build of your people a fortress of strength and peace, a wall to resist the winds.” (WoK Paperback, p. 1242.) Urithiru is shaped with the eastward side flat and the westward side curved to withstand the Everstorm – “a wall to resist the winds.” Honor calls the Everstorm the “Night of Sorrows” because of the extended period of darkness the Everstorm will bring. Members of the New KR Not coincidentally, the KR we currently know or anticipate includes members of different countries and races: at least four from Alethkar (Dalinar, Kaladin, Renarin and Jasnah), one from Jah Keved (Shallan), one from the Reshi Isles (Lift), and one (probably) from Shinovar (Szeth). To these, I believe we can add the following characters (and maybe some others we haven’t met yet): Eshonai. Her fall into the chasms will find Eshonai reunited with her mother and the listeners who escaped Eshonai’s coup. Here her comet spren will finally chase away the stormspren and bond with her, making her a Willshaper – the first listener KR. (It’s hard to imagine her having a book otherwise…) Rysn. Whether or not Rysn (from Thaylenah) ends up a KR, she will be crucial nonetheless because of her Larkin. If she does become a KR, she will be a Releaser/Dustbringer because she is both astonishingly brave (foolhardy?) and obedient (to a fault). She already has had two Interludes… Ym. Since Ym (from Iri) had the Surge of Progression, I’m not convinced he’s dead. If Jasnah, without that Surge, could survive a stab through the heart, I think someone with that Surge should be able to survive as well. Though he was “killed” with a shardblade, so was Szeth, whom Nale resurrected with a Progression fabrial. Ym might have saved himself with his own Progression Surge. Probably a Truthwatcher. Zahel. As a Returned with Divine Breath and access to the Spiritual Realm, Zahel is an ideal candidate for a Bondsmith. By the time he reaches Urithiru, he may have recovered Nightblood. Nightblood will be ecstatic fighting the Voidbringers – so much evil investiture to consume, so little time…I’ll make a prediction here: Nightblood will be the means of destroying Odium, consuming every last bit of his Shard. I suspect that won’t be in SA though. Axies. I’m not sure whether Axies the Collector will be a KR, but if so, I believe he will also be a Bondsmith. Either way, his knowledge of spren will be enormously valuable to the anti-Odium faction: He will find a way to reverse the effects of Odium’s influence on the listeners who adopted the forms of power. Kaladin/Fleet Will Seek New Stormlight Reserves By the time we reach the last book in the series, the Everstorm survivors will be making their last stand at Urithiru, surrounded by the Voidbringer host. The Everstorm will have caused the near divestiture of all of Roshar’s Stormlight by interfering with the Highstorms. Urithiru’s Stormlight reserves will be almost gone, incapacitating the KR. Things will be looking bad for our heroes… In desperation, Kaladin will use the remaining Stormlight reserves to seek out the Origin. The KR will launch a sortie to distract the Voidbringers. Because Kaladin is Fleet, he will race out of Urithiru and make his escape. But where is the Origin? The Origin Is on One of Roshar’s Moons! I believe Kaladin will find Stormlight on one of Roshar’s moons. Here is a WoB on point: Q: “Do the moons relate to the Highstorms at all?” A: “The moons...at all? Sure! You'll love this. The star's age, at Roshar – Earth astronomers would say that is a star which could not have planets with life on them orbiting it.” I interpret Brandon’s oblique, but pertinent, answer in context to mean that the Stormlight that invests the Highstorms and brings life to Roshar comes from one of the moons. He tells us that Roshar should not have life on it, yet it does. He’s tells us in another WoB that “Stormlight makes plants grow” (written into a fan’s book). And his answer here comes in response to a question about the relationship between Roshar’s moons and Highstorms. Here’s another relevant WoB: Q: “If [a Windrunner had] enough heating fabrials and enough Stormlight, how high up could [he] go?” A: “He could theoretically break orbit if he has Stormlight for air, and he could manipulate gravity. They have actually figured how long it would take to make it to the various moons.” I don’t believe the Sanderson Crew did that calculation just for fun. It has to be relevant to the story line. Peter has said that the moons come very close to Roshar during the night: “Roshar's moons are much much closer than our moon. Their elliptical orbits bring them closer to Roshar's surface during the night…” (For an excellent discussion of the astronomy of the Rosharian moons, check out this thread.) It should take Kaladin about two hours to reach the moon that is the Origin (though it is still unclear which one it is). The Larkin Stores the Stormlight Kaladin will take Rysn’s Larkin with him to the moon, where it will store enormous amounts of Stormlight to bring back. Will this increase the Larkin’s size, perhaps turning it into some kind of Greatshell? Will it be able to fly back itself? Will Rysn give it a name…? (Personally, I like Lex Larkin.) Kaladin may suffer significant damage from his potential over-exposure to the Origin’s Stormlight, perhaps crystallizing him like one of Dalinar’s soulcasters. Syl warned him of Stormlight over-exposure in WoR. I suspect that the Larkin will protect Kaladin by absorbing the excess Stormlight from him. The Duel of Champions With the new Stormlight reserves, the Siege of Urithiru will hold out long enough to persuade Odium to agree to a battle of champions: “Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion…” (WoR, p. 76.) Kaladin will go up against something representing Odium, and Kaladin will defeat it. (It wouldn’t be much of a story otherwise…) The good guys win, and hatred is again put back in the bottle Some intriguing questions and observations: As a Son of Honor (a real one, not like Gavilar and Amaram), Kaladin will not cheat during the duel. But his opponent will, perhaps with help from other Voidbringers. Will Kaladin be restricted only to the Windrunner Surges? Will his trip to the Origin change him in any way, allowing him access to other powers or Surges? Can he be given the non-Jezrien Honorblades for other Surges, even if he only uses Syl as his shard-weapon? Will he have enough Stormlight to use them all? The End. Thanks for reading!
  16. I have a theory I'd like to throw out there for discussion. I believe that Honor made the Honorblades work for anyone that could pick them up purposefully. So that the burden of being a Herald could be passed on to others and the Oath Pact could be maintained even after one of the Heralds broke under Odium's torture. This could also potentially support the theory that the "Madman" that is currently holding that position of the Herald of War is not the original Talenel'Elin, though I'm not entirely convinced that he isn't Talenel'Elin. In addition, maybe the Honorblades are not inherently inefficient in their use of Stormlight, but that the wielder must speak something akin to the First Ideal to be awakened to Heraldom and become a better conduit for Investiture. I say these things because it seems very shortsighted of Honor to place such an important task in the hands of ten men and women, who despite being immortal, still suffer from the pains of mortal beings. So there you have it! Please discuss ~sbi
  17. This might be crazy, but is it somehow possible that Vin is Cultivation? From WoB: Also: Also:
  18. Is Szeth a coward or the most honorable man on Roshar? I think Kaladin didn't have the full picture when calling him a coward. Szeth feels the agony of every kill he has done, proven by his madman eyes and clenched teeth as well as his conversation with Dalanar. Yet, he goes on and kills because that is what he is told to do. Personally I think Szeth is as far from a coward as possible.
  19. Before speaking his oaths to the Stormfather, Dalinar has a vision perhaps “stronger” than the others. The Stormfather says he didn’t send it: “No vision was sent this morning…A simple dream. Not of me.” I believe that Dalinar’s “dream” is a vision from the spiritual realm. The vision suggests that Dalinar had access to the spiritual realm as a boy. Now that he has unburdened himself of his guilt for “letting Gavilar die,” the visions reintroduce themselves. Dalinar is a Bondsmith, with Divine Attributes of “pious/guiding.” He may need spiritual realm access to accomplish his tasks. Dalinar’s sensitivity to the spiritual realm may be why the Stormfather chose Dalinar to reveal his visions to and to bond with. In the dream, Dalinar stands in darkness, then turns about and sees furniture and furnishings he remembers (emphasis in original): “My house, he thought. As it was when I was a child. Back before conquest, back before Gavilar… “Gavilar…hadn’t Gavilar died? No, Dalinar could hear his brother laughing in the next room. He was a child. They both were. “Dalinar crossed the shadowed room, feeling the fuzzy joy of familiarity. Of things being as they should be. He’d left his wooden swords out. He had a collection, each carved like a Shardblade. He was too old for those now, of course, but he still liked having them. As a collection. “He stepped to the balcony doors and pushed them open. “Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well.” In sequence, the first noteworthy aspect is the snippet, “back before Gavilar…Gavilar…hadn’t Gavilar died?” I interpret this phrasing to mean that Dalinar replaces one chain of thought with another. The unfinished thought refers to something other than Gavilar’s death that we do not yet know (and probably won’t find out until Book 5, Dalinar’s book). I suspect Dalinar remembered something that Gavilar imposed on him that for a long time cut Dalinar off from the spiritual realm and these visions. Some may disagree with this interpretation, believing Dalinar pauses because he remembers that Gavilar is dead. I think my interpretation is supported by the sequence of the “back befores” – the second seeming to come earlier in time than the first as Dalinar’s thoughts are returning to when he was a child. Regardless, the proper interpretation of this snippet doesn’t really affect the overall conclusion. I include it because I believe it is a look forward to what will come out in Dalinar’s book. The second noteworthy aspect is the emphasis on “things being as they should be.” “Should” states an ideal to which to aspire. The spiritual realm is the place of ideals. The paragraph further implies that Dalinar is done playing with swords, wooden or real. This bit foreshadows Dalinar becoming a shardless KR later in the chapter. Now the key passage, how he “knew well” the distant light, that it enveloped him in a “piercing warmth” and did not blind him when he stared at it, that it soaked “into his very self.” The “sun” in the cognitive realm is cold, but this light source embraces Dalinar down to his soul with warmth and comfort. Every aspect of this description reads like a spiritual experience, Moses standing before the burning bush. Further evidence: the surgeon stitching Dalinar’s wound during the climactic battle is amazed that Dalinar can still use his arm after so much scarring from prior wounds. SOMETHING must have supernaturally healed Dalinar over the years. Perhaps it was an incipient bond with the Stormfather, but I think it has more to do with some sort of spiritual bond. My thought is that the light source represents the remnants of Honor in the spiritual realm, just as the Highstorms represent it in the physical realm and the Stormfather represents it in the cognitive realm. Investiture, according to Brandon, exists in all three realms. Perhaps the spiritual realm has infused Dalinar with some limited self-healing power comparable to the resurrecting power of Divine Breath. But such speculation is best explored elsewhere than a post that is already too long.,. What are the implications of a KR with access to the spiritual realm? The epigraph about Melishi the Bondsmith provides some guidance. I’d appreciate hearing what others think on this subject.
  20. There have been all sorts of theories regarding the origin and nature of the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. Mine is that Honor and Cultivation each invested the current incarnation of the Stormfather; and that Cultivation and either Adonalsium (though the “Old Magic”) or Odium each invested the current incarnation of the Nightwatcher. The Stormfather Both the Highstorms and the Stormfather pre-exist the arrival of Honor, Cultivation and humans on Roshar. Originally, the Highstorms were merely meteorological events. WoB states that at some point the Highstorms also became magical events. Our fearless WoB compiler RShara says she understands Brandon to mean “the stormlight part of the storm was added later, I'm assuming by a Shard.” Eshonai says the Stormfather is a traitor who was once a friend. This description suggests the Stormfather was the spren who personified the Highstorms to the Listeners. Eshonai also says the Highstorms and the Stormfather are involved in Listener form changes. Subsequent WoR events confirm that statement. The Stormfather now identifies himself as a sliver, a splinter and the spren of Honor. Humans personified Honor (the “Almighty”) as the Stormfather, by which the Stormfather became Honor’s spren. Though the Listeners claim the Stormfather betrayed them, it is unclear whether the Stormfather could have simultaneously remained a Listener’s spren. Eshonai’s comments suggest that the Stormfather may no longer be serving his function of overseeing Listener form changes, but we have no evidence of this. To the contrary, the Listeners continued to undergo their pre-stormspren form changes during Highstorms. The Stormfather’s failure to help Eshonai when she was being bound by the stormspren does not provide proof one way or the other. Throughout WoR, we see that the Stormfather has no autonomy regarding the bonding process. He accepts all KR oaths, and Syl says he has no power to stop the tightening of the Nahel bond if the KR “says the words.” This is no different than how he behaves towards Eshonai. The Stormfather states he is also a sliver of Honor. He claims he was present when Odium “murdered” Honor and fled. The following WoB provides guidance on how the Stormfather became Honor’s sliver: “Q: If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?” “A: Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then…” Odium (or rather Rayse) did not acquire any part of Honor’s splinters because other WoB says Rayse did not want to dilute his essence, his “hatefulness.” The only other sentient being in the neighborhood was the Stormfather. I believe the Stormfather absorbed Honor’s splinters and “fled.” Some indefinite time afterwards (immediately?), the Stormfather released Honor’s splinters, which greatly increased the number of Roshar’s spren (emphasis added): “Q: Were there spren bonds before Aharietiam?” “A: …The spren were around back then but they're not nearly what they are now. They've changed over the course of the book obviously…They are much more prevalent following Honor and what happened to him, but there were some spren on the planet before even that happened.” And, of course, the Stormfather retained a splinter of Honor as well. The Stormfather is thus simultaneously a spren, a sliver and a splinter of Honor, as he claims. But Cultivation has also invested the Stormfather. At a recent WoR signing, a fan asked Brandon to write something in his copy (emphasis added): “Q: For Words of Radiance, could you put a comment about something in the upcoming books, nothing specific, just something I can think about? Something like "Renarin has a spren" you wrote for somebody else in The Way of Kings? “A: [brandon wrote] ‘Stormlight makes plants grow.’" I believe the power of growth – Progression – belongs to Cultivation, not Honor. Cultivation is apparently the Shard responsible for stormlight, making plants grow and facilitating surgebinder healing. Thus, the Stormfather is a splinter of BOTH Cultivation and Honor. He may bring the Highstorms, but the stormlight the Highstorms contain come from Cultivation. The Nightwatcher We have not yet met the Nightwatcher and have much less information about her than we do the Stormfather. All we know is the following: Humans come to her for boons, which she dispenses together with a curse. Humans believe the Nightwatcher controls the “Old Magic.” Brandon has not explained what the “Old Magic” is. We believe the Nightwatcher selected Lift for Wyndle to bond with. This belief is based on Wyndle describing her as “Mother.” Since Syl and other spren call the Stormfather (and not Honor) “Father,” Wyndle’s designation suggests “Mother” means the Nightwatcher and not Cultivation. The Nightwatcher resides in the “The Valley,” which is located in the mountains between Emul and Greater Hexi. It is generally accepted in these Forums that the Nightwatcher is a rough analog to the Stormfather: Cultivation’s spren in the same way the Stormfather is Honor’s spren. This seems confirmed by Lift’s Nahel bond with Wyndle: the two surges granted Lift are Progression and Abrasion. Based on the surgebinding table and the concept of “cultivation,” these surges appear to stem from Cultivation. WoB states the analogy with the Stormfather is “on the right track” but not precisely correct. That statement suggests something else is part of the Nightwatcher. That may be why the Nightwatcher curses as well as grants boons. There are two other potential sources of Investiture in her: the “Old Magic” and Odium. According to the Coppermind Wiki, the “Old Magic” was the dominant religion on Roshar before the rise of Vorinism. Since Brandon has said that all Cosmere magic ultimately derives from Adonalsium, and we know Adonalsium has invested on Roshar, then the “Old Magic” may be derived from Adonalsium. If so, then the Nightwatcher is a spren of both Cultivation and Adonalsium. Alternatively, because the Nightwatcher curses her beneficiaries, Odium may have invested in the Nightwatcher. Both her name and behavior imply a darkness or meanness to her character. Human consciousness may have personified the uncertainties of growth and development in both beneficial and hateful terms, thus producing a spren comprised of both Shards. I find it interesting that the Nightwatcher’s curses seem unrelated to her boons: that would imply an almost schizophrenic or multiple personality spren whose two components don’t coordinate. We may not learn a lot more about the Nightwatcher until the second five SA books. That’s a long time to wait…
  21. Brandon gives us plenty of spren descriptions, but the description of Angerspren seem to differ from place to place in the books. Humans get pools of bubbling blood. (that makes my blood boil) Parshendi get red lightning storms. It seems like there are two different types of spren called angerspren; angerspren and stormspren. Eshonai is not surprised in the first quote by the form of the spren, only that they appeared at her reprimand. Pattern confirms that stormspren are a type of voidspren. The stormspren seem to be hanging around the Listeners, just waiting to bond for stormform.
  22. I don't know if any of this has been posited yet, but this idea fascinated me. I got really excited about the Stormfather in WoR. So here's my theory/speculation about him/it. He refers to himself as a sliver of Honor (well, of the Almighty, but same thing) multiple times: He also says: Now, we understand that a sliver is an entity that has held most of the power of a shard for a time then released it, examples being (spoilers for Mistborn) If the Stormfather is a sliver, then when did he hold the power of Honor? I believe that it was when Odium killed him. When Odium killed Honor, by which we really mean he killed Tanavast, the Stormfather, who was present somehow, took up the power, did something with it, then released it. I assume that Odium did something more than just kill Tanavast; it would be lazy to just let the power sit there. So maybe he and the Stormfather clashed or something, and that is when the Stormfather fled, as he said. Now, based on his name, the obvious relation between him and the storms, and what he says about it that I have quoted, I think that he threw Honor's power into the highstorm/s. I do not know when Honor was killed (before the Last Desolation, or whenever), or if the highstorm/s existed before his death. Either the Stormfather created the storm then with the power, or added it to what already existed. We have WoB that the highstorms are a combination of something meteorological and something magical (obviously, on the magic), so I guess that it is the second, that the Stormfather added the power to the already existing storms, making them much more violent, then he became the sliver, the remainder of the Almighty for humanity. There are numerous potential implications if this is all correct; about the nature of the spren, Stormlight, etc. I believe there must be a definite amount of Stormlight that is continually recycled by the highstorm/s. Is that the power of Honor himself? It would make sense. Another question is, What does this mean of spren, particularly bonding spren? They are very similar to Seons and Skaze on Sel, from what we know, splinters of Shardic power. Did they exist before the death of Honor? Could they have been part of what the Stormfather did with the power? These may all very well be questions that have been answered already, but I don't really feel like searching that hard. If all this has been posited already, feel free to ignore. If not, do you agree, or have anything to refute? Am I hopelessly wrong?
  23. Stuck behind "spoiler" just in case: Not saying I necessarily believe this, more that I'm looking for others' thoughts and opinions on the possibility.
  24. At this point, I'd like to put some increased evidence forward for the idea that the Parshendi are the true inhabitents of Roshar, who initally went to war against humanity for reasons that were somewhat understandable. Perhaps they were even created by Adonalsium when it was on Roshar, but that is irreleveant. Firstly, I'd like to point out that the Parshendi are unable to bond with the Nahel spren. I interpret this to mean that the Parshendi were unable to bond with the Nahel spren because they were closer to the Cognitive Realm than other peoples. This allowed them their forms, but they were not well-rooted enough in the Physical realm to form Nahel bonds with the most intelligent spren. However, then for whatever reason, human refugees arrived, I believe fleeing an attack by Odium onto their home planet of Braize, in the company of Honor and Cultivation. And they could bond with the Nahel spren just fine. However, they also were doing what humans do and conquering the Parshendi land with the help of these powers, and powerful spren such as the Stormfather, who they called traitor. They beat the Parshendi and drove them back into Braize, which was now a hellish nightmare, thanks to Odium. They called this place Damnation. I believe some memory of this conquest can be seen in this Death Rattle. The Parshendi, who had been around for much longer, felt betrayed by the spren, who gave humans some fantasitc abilities. How could the Parshendi hope to match them? This is echoed here, with disturbing implications. At this point, I believe Odium saw what had happened happening, and realized that he had had a stroke of good fortune. His army was here. They were angry, they wanted their homes back. So, he and the Unmade made an accord with them. They would give them new forms, forms of power, in exchange for destroying humanity. The Parshendi agreed, without realizing the trick. Once they took on these forms and bonded with Odium's voidspren, they were his Voidbringers, scourge of Roshar. This is shown here. The Parshendi songs even claim that the gods gave them powers similar to the human Surges. Another quote again mentions that it was crafted by the Unmade. This also explains something else. The Last Legion may not have been able to remember a time when they were free to chose their own form, but it used to be so, before humanity arrived. So although time has dulled the specifics, the ideas of the forms themselves remain. There is one quote that seems important that I cannot make sense of, though. Ideas on what this means are welcome. All in all, I think this is a pretty solid interpretation of early Rosharan history and the conflict between the humans and the Voidbringers. Obviously some of the details may be wrong, but I think the outlines are on the right track.
  25. Okay. This is borderline a joke, but it just fits. This epigraph has always bothered me because it doesn't make sense with what we know. Three of sixteen ruled, but now the broken one reigns implies four entities of Shardic power, with Odium as one of the three. I believe I might have solved it. It all chalks down to basic human error. These death rattles are the ones recorded by Taravangian, so we have no way of actually knowing whether or not they had the right word. The one I have in mind is "reigns"... What if, the dying person actually meant, "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the broken one rains?" Dalinar describes the Stormfather as broken many times, and the spren just seems... off. Throughout many situations in both WoK and WoR, he does things that don't seem particularly smart or honorable. And the Stormfather is in charge of the highstorms. So, whaddya all think? Silly coincidence, or possible theory? (Also, if anyone has said this before, I'm sorry).
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