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So we know that Kaladin (Windrunner) is bonded to an honorspren and Lift (Edgedancer) is bonded to a cultivationspren, and that all the Nahel-bonding spren exist on a spectrum / continuum from Honor to Cultivation. Other than the Windrunners and Edgedancers, and the Nightwatcher/Stormfather who are 2 of the 3 Bondsmith spren, do we know from the text or WOB which Orders are "more Cultivation" and which are "more Honor"? (I have a theory about the Shard - Surge - Order associations being shown on the Double Eye chart, but don't want to post a theory that's disproved by stuff we already know.)

I think the Surges associated with each Knight Radiant Order, as well as their positions on the Double Eye diagram ("Surgebinding chart"), show which are "more of Honor", which are "more of Cultivation", and which are a more nearly even mix of the two. What we know: -Syl (a Windrunner spren) is an honorspren. The Windrunner surges are Adhesion and Gravitation. -Wyndle (an Edgedancer spren) is a cultivationspren. The Edgedancer surges are Abrasion and Progression. -The Bondsmith spren include the Stormfather (who is "of Honor") and the Nightwatcher (who is "of Cultivation). These spren are unique & of exceptional power/status. -The Lightweavers do not swear Oaths after the First Ideal, but advance by personally relevant truths instead. The chart: http://coppermind.net/w/images/TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg The Surges: Well, that's interestingly vague. There's two ways to read the "not a codified part" - either that these powers aren't Surges at all, or that they aren't separated / distinguished from other Surges the way the God Metals are in the Metallic Arts. If Progression and Adhesion "could be considered as such", that does imply the Surges proper are meant. I'd suggest that it's actually all four top and bottom Surges - Tension, Adhesion, Progression, and Illumination - which are the purer expressions of the Shards; one directly, one more symbolically. Adhesion is Honor as bonds, Tension is rigidity - symbolic of fixity of purpose. Progression is Cultivation as growth; Illumination is knowledge and art. The Orders: I believe the "top of the chart" - Stonewards, Bondsmiths, and Windrunners - are of Honor; the "bottom of the chart" - Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, and Edgedancers - are of Cultivation; and the "sides" - Elsecallers, Willshapers, Skybreakers, and Dustbringers - are closer to even (with the Willshapers and Skybreakers inclining to Honor and the Elsecallers and Dustbringers inclining to Cultivation). Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that their spren are strictly of that shard. Surely honorspren and cultivationspren are; but the Nightwatcher is a spren of Cultivation, and yet the Bondsmiths almost certainly are an Honor-aligned order. "Bonds" seem to be absolutely core to the Intent of Honor. Rather, I think the specific positions on the chart are significant. Windrunners (Honorspren) and Edgedancers (Cultivationspren) are on the right side. These "right corner" Orders' spren are the purest expressions of the Shards. Lightweavers (Cryptics) and Stonewards (???) are on the left side. The Lightweavers are interesting because of their Truths; IMO this is an expression of Cultivation as "personal growth". Extrapolating, the Stonewards must represent Honor in some unique way, but their spren aren't necessarily 100% Honor. I'd further speculate that like the Cryptics, the Stonewards' spren will have a name that doesn't include "spren". Bondsmiths (unique spren) and Truthwatchers (???) are in the center. We know far less here, but the Bondsmiths' bond to the unique superpowerful spren suggests that there must be something very special about the Truthwatchers, as does Renarin's foresight combined with the Very Big Deal made about foresight in Vorinism. With a wild leap, I'd suggest that these central Orders are in some way critical to tying the whole KR System together, keeping it functioning.

I've seen a lot of people saying that Honor was shattered after the Recreance, but is there any evidence for this besides that Dalinar sees it in one of the visions?

So, I want to run this by everyone to see if I am repeating something that is generally understood. Odium comes to Roshar. The goal is to Splinter Honor. Honor knows this. He lays a trap. The cost of possible Splintering (edit: of Honor) is that Odium must be bound to the Roshar system and therefore not be able to leave and chase other Shards. Something Honor would do - put himself between the danger and those it pursues. The Oathpact suddenly makes sense. The way to keep Odium bound to a system is to have Odium Invest. How does one do it on Roshar? Give up its Investiture to create a lot of spren. The more spren, the higher one's Investment. So, Odium, by Oathpact, can battle Honor, but in the way that bounds him: by Investing in Roshar, and fighting the spren war. Basically, the voidspren, the Unmade, *any other object* Invested by Odium on Roshar, makes Odium's Connection to Roshar higher. Which is why there MUST BE multiple Desolations - Odium must be permitted to grow its influence on Roshar to the point of active war. And this is why, short of Splintering Odium himself, this must repeat - if Odium's influence on Roshar wanes, he leaves the system and goes after other Shards. So, Honor chooses to play a long and dangerous game with Odium, just like Preservation chose with Ruin. Also explains Hoid's "I sympathize with you, Dalinar, but what I seek to achieve and what you do are not one and the same, and *my* goals are more important!" Hoid wants Odium bound to Roshar. Odium whose influence is purged from Roshar is free to roam elsewhere. Hoid does not want it. The problem right now is that Odium has splintered Honor. Achievement unlocked. Now is the time to leave the system (or Splinter Cultivation and leave the system). To do this, there must be an all-out war that ends with destruction of all Odium's assets on Roshar (at the cost of a massive devastation), and frees him. TL;DR: Desolations and voidspren are the means of keeping Odium Connected to Roshar. Odium must be kept Invested. This obviously skims over a lot of things (like, why Heralds). But overall, what am I missing? Edit: It has been wisely pointed out that the Oathpact refers to the deal Honor made with the Heralds, not Odium. I struck that unfortunate phrase. The rest of the point remains salient: Honor promises Odium a chance to take him out, but Odium must Invest in Roshar to be able to Splinter Honor.

Hi guys, I am writing this post to expose a theory I worked on for a while, recently I got some new possible contros and I developed a derivated theory of the main one (but that I like very very less). The core concept of the theory for both the main and the derivate ones is that an Highstorm is actually a perpendicularity...a mobile one (to be honest I think it better to say that an Highstorm has a Perpencidularity at its inside) Pros: - An Highstorm spreads Stormlight...Investiture that comes directly from the Spiritual Realm (many WoB about Stormlight as lightbulb to the spiritual realm), a perpendicularity is a place where the Realms are spiked and the Spiritual is "in contact" with the phisical. - Shadesmar seems really poor of Stormlight, another clue about the direct travel Spiritual->Physical (with maybe some minor leak in the Cognitive, that may be the origin of the proto-Spren) - The Perpendicularities we saw are all in a liquid state and may be part of a greater waterpool (often called water of live in certain Cosmere Culture) and the Hightstorm is actually a great amount of water (as every storm's cloud) compressed together. The Highstorms help to grown plants and have some benefit to the living healt (I think it's the reason the "Herald's wisdom" suggest to go out in the Highstorm to wash) fitting well with the "water of life" concept - The phase where the Spheres get the Stormlight is actually the same phase when Listeners can obtain a new form and the phase where people willing or unwilling are slightly pulled out of the Physical (the "calm eye" of the Highstorm). - Roshar is a place where the boundary between the Realms are less strong, what is better than a Perpendicularity that regularly pass over the whole planet ? Contro: - We never actually saw a mobile perpendicularity The previous part is common by both the Main theory and the Derivate one. Now I will talk about the difference between the two: Main theory: Adonalsium's design We know that Adonalsium explicity created Roshar as we see it, We know that the Listener predate the Shards there and that the Listener were created by Adonalium to fit the Roshar's ecology. As other Rosharans' beings the Listener are quite dependant from the symbiosis with a Spren. My idea is that Adonalsium left on Roshar as part of his design a great "Investiture Vault"(I see it as a willing analogue to the Ruin's stolen power) to put in place the Invested Highstorm as a tool to made the Spren's birth naturally possible. The bounday between Realms are weaker and the Mind of the physical being may more easy influence-gave birth to the Cognitive beings (thanks also to the higher level of Investiture). A specific Adonalsium's Splinter was put in charge or developed on his own the purpose to carry and manage the Highstorm (of course I am talking of the Rider of the Storm). Pro to the main theory: - Roshar's ecology seems to be strictly dependent from Stormlight - Roshar's flora/fauna is high developed to the Highstorm (this is actually a doutbful pro, because the Highstorm may be a regular uninvested powerful Storm in the Ancient time) - This would fits to the theory who saw the Purelake as a Shard's Perpendicularity along with Horneater's peaks and leave a place for the Highstorm as other source perpendicularity Contro to the main theory: - A recent WoB said that is possible to create a Spren from Stormlight while isn't possible to create it from Preservation's power because it comes from a different WoB. This suggest that Stormlight is from one of the shard that are actually parents of the Radiant Spren (without put an exception like "Adonalium's Investiture as untainted Investiture may be used corrupted with an Intent and be used as Shard's Investiture) - The presence of an huge amount of Adonalsium's Investiture is something never saw in other places of the Cosmere and in my opinion it would be cause a Manifestation of Investiture to arose on Roshar (like if a Shard was Invested).... I actually think that the Fabrial aren't from H&C but this is quite an external topic in this theory. - The Drominad System's essay seems to point as First of the Sun as an unique case in the Cosmere, where you can find a perpendicularity without a Shard on the planet. This may be semanthic, but actually on Roshar the Adonalsium's perpendicularity may be masked by the presence of H&C or it's not so relevant because you may actually use the Shards' perpendicularities Derived theory: Cultivation's will Cultivation is the Stormlight's source (I have another topic in working called "Stormlight isn't of Honor"). Pros to the derivate theory: - More in line with the Shard's investiment on a Planet - Stormlight has healing and growing proprieties on large scale, this seems to fit Cultivation's mandate/Intent - If the Purelake's theory is false, we have a good candidate to the second Shard's perpendicularity on Roshar (thanks to the guys who informed me that the Purelake's perpendicularity is a theory not a confirmed fact) - It doesn't need to put exception to the Cosmere's mechanics Contros to the derivate theory: - How the hell Did Roshar's survive before the Shards' arrive ? I would really know your opinions about... Soon or later I will wrote all my Roshar's model PS: If you find some horrible grammar horror in the theory please let me know it...I will fix it as soon as possible

Seriously. As I look through some of the Ars Arcanum for each book, I have trouble comprehending certain concepts, such as the use for Aluminum holding identity. What sort of uses to the more minuscule abilities in the Cosmere have?

Hey all, its been awhile since I've lurked on these forums, but I had a thought about civilization pre-odium on Roshar. I think it obvious that the heralds came from a Roshar population that predates odium's arrival on the planet and thus too the desolations. Meaning the heralds likely have a slightly different genetic and spiritual make up from the current inhabitants of Roshar. What I'd like to see discussed is how the current populations differ from the heralds: are the heralds beings created solely from honor an cultivation, and immune to influences like the thrill? are the heralds immortal because of residual after effects of the oath pact. spren are shattered pieces of honor, that emulate the honorblades and make up a newer magic system on Roshar. Do the heralds know of older magic that came exclusively from cultivation and/or honor, and if so does this constitute the 'old magic' of the night watcher? I'd like to hear what you guys think about these topics, or if a similar thread exists I'd love links

So, was just thinking, we all kinda assume that Odium was the one who came to Roshar to hunt Honor and Cultivation, though we don't really know why those two would be at the top of his list, but wouldn't it make more sense if Honor came to Roshar hunting Odium, Honor would have felt obligated to stop Odium and protect other people. So wouldn't it make more sense for either Cultivation to have set up her own planet and have Odium arrive and then Honor shortly after, or for Cultivation and Odium to have set up the world together and then Honor arrived to stop Odium. Just a theory, and I know its a fairly unimportant one at that, but to me it seems to make far more sense for Honor to have been the one Hunting Odium, and not Odium hunting Honor

On page 385 of Hero of Ages, I found an interesting quote: The Stormfather gives Kaladin some interesting information as well: Doesn't this sound like an interesting coincidence of words? Maybe I'm missing something entirely, but do you think there's an in-Cosmere connection to what Elend is saying and what's happening on Roshar, or do you think this is just Brandon introducing this foreshadowing as an easter egg into the Stormlight Archive?

SPOILER ALL COSMERE related possibly Shards are considered as "gods" and most powerful thing in the cosmere as of the moment but out of all the shards that have been revealed through the cosmere novels Mistborn, Stormlight Archives, Elantris, Warbreaker, White Sand, even WoB's and whatever form of story that i missed that Mr. Sanderson produced that is cosmere related. So out of the limited information and exposure we had with the shards who did you find most interesting whether it'd be due to the intent, the vessel behind it, the shardworld he/she/it resides or interaction with the other shards, even the ire from Hoid counts too and/or just the things that shard has done so far ? Also some questions i'm curious about Do you guys think Odium has a big opposite shard not Honor and doesn't have to be like perfect opposite kinda like preservation/ruin ? Apparently Bavadin(Autonomy) is Mr. Sanderson's favorite shard, thoughts on the dude especially for White Sand readers ? Do you agree that he's a menace like Hoid suggests in his letter grouping him up with Rayse ? Would you count him as ally or enemy in general ? It seems that Tanavast mentioned in one of Dalinar's dreams that Odium tasted defeat too many times and would not wanna taste defeat again. Do you think that means that Rayse was actually losing between him and Tanavast before Honor got rekt ? Or it was just a stalemate. How many other malevolent shards are there apart from Ruin and Odium ? Possibly Chaos maybe Though we have limited knowledge about shards my favorite is probably Ruin, he seems earnestly thinking he could help people by ending them lol . I would've said Harmony but if only the dude acts more like Ruin than preservation, he feels like a caretaker more than somebody who is actually half Ruin tbh, i wish he was more malevolent since he still represents enthrophy/change/death/destruction. Well that's all . Thoughts?

I don't know if this has already been brought up, but I realized something. I was re-reading the Lift chapter in WoR, when I realized that Wyndle is referring to Cultivation as Mother. I thought that Spren were children, rather splinters, of Honor, so is it possible that Spren could be literal children of Honor and Cultivation? Or at least some Spren. Because we know that they were romantically involved, coming to Roshar. Or, like Feurochemy is a mix of Ruin and Preservation, maybe some orders of the Knights Radiant are a mix of Honor and Cultivation. Although, I am also pretty sure that the Old Magic is of Cultivation. Sorry... Not so much a theory, rather a bunch of thought provoking questions!

Here's my conclusion of two SA so far, and I'm not sure this speculation has been confirmed or common-known, so just have a look: In WoR, we could see that Wyndle, Lift's Nahel spren, called Nightwatcher as "mother", as well as Stormfather indicated Syl as his "daughter". This is the first clue. Secondly, we can be sure that except for the Voidsprens, all Roshar spren are of Honor or/and Cultivation. Thirdly, we know that Stormfather is the cognitive projection of Almighty, referring to as Honor; while Nightwatcher is deeply involved with Culti. So they are the symbol spren of the two Shards. So, can we say that SF and NW are at the position of parents of all spren species? Looking forward to any new suggestions:))

There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.

There is probably a post on this topic. This however is a specific theory. In WoK, as Taravangian is showing seth around, he thinks: At first glance, this means that Szeth's sense of Honor makes him decide to stay his hand. However, what if it means that the oathstone is a splinter or bounded to a splinter of the shard Honor. Thoughts? Upvotes?

So I made a theory about the cause of the cause of the Recreance, here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53011-bavadin-breaker-of-the-oathpact-and-cause-of-the-recreance/ At the Denver signing, I asked Brandon this: (paraphrased) While this doesn't confirm my theory, it is noteworthy that these two oppose each other.

I speculate that before the end of SLA Dalinar will assume Honor’s power and become Honor himself. My reasons: Dalinar is the Bondsmith, currently the only one. His spren is the Stormfather. I’ve stated elsewhere that Bondsmiths are the purest expression of Honor among the KR orders. They “bind” like Honor himself. After Honor’s death, the Stormfather assumed Honor’s power. The Stormfather has yet to manifest itself in the Physical Realm. He refuses to be a “Shard” for Dalinar. Dalinar is the first character Brandon thought of who is in SLA. If Odium is ever to be defeated, Honor’s ability to re-bind Odium seems like it would be important. That means his power, now held by the reluctant Stormfather, will have to be exercised as a whole by someone else. Add it all up, Honor will need to re-appear before the end. Who is a better candidate that Dalinar? Edited to reflect Matt Snow's correction.

There’s an interesting discussion on this thread about the Cognitive Realm structure of different Shardworlds. Scadrian cognitive objects are made from mists and resemble their Physical Realm form. Rosharan cognitive objects consist of glass beads. More strangely, the blueprint of each object is contained within a single bead, but the object itself holds no form until it snaps together with other beads. Why such an extreme difference? (I ignore Sel for now, since its “Cognitive bubble” – is that now a canonical term? – is in dangerous disarray. And we know little of Nalthis’s.) As FirstSelector points out in the cited thread, Adonalsium himself may be responsible for Shadesmar. Substantial Adonalsium residue may linger on Roshar, including in Shadesmar. But it’s difficult to form any theory about that. (Might Roshar’s fourth “more esoteric” magic system mentioned in the WoR AA involve Adonalsium’s investiture?) I’ll focus instead on the three Shards who subsequently invested in Roshar. We would expect Shadesmar and its beads to reflect the influence of the Shards’ investitures. Here’s my explanation for Shadesmar’s structure. Odium I think Odium is the reason each bead is self-contained. Odium is the lone wolf who doesn’t bond or play well with others. We believe that Nergaoul, the Unmade responsible for the Thrill, resides in the black sphere Gavilar gave to Szeth, essentially a glass bead. To me, it makes sense that an investiture that divides and corrodes will cause cognitive objects to separate themselves from one another into their own containers – if for no other reason than to shield themselves from Odium’s influence. (A thought: could seons have formed around Aons for the same reason once Odium visited Sel?) Honor Honor binds. His influence allows each bead to snap together with other beads to form a semblance of the first bead’s cognitive object. That's odd because it means other beads temporarily relinquish their ties to their own object. Yet we see this happen in WoR’s prologue, with Taln’s statue and Gavilar’s palace. Bead construction requires Stormlight and motivation. Cultivation I now believe that Cultivation’s mandate (intent) is Time. Cultivation’s investiture permits the visualization of a future goal achieved by time compression. The beads snap together instantly, after the visualization of the cognitive object occurs. Honor and Cultivation working together undo what Odium did, isolating each object into its own glass bead. Thoughts?

I was thinking on the Oathpact and the Recreance for a while and I came up with this speculation: I don't know if what follows was already pointed out but I would like to read what do you think about it (though it's very far-fetched in some points and has few gaps). --- On the Oathpact, I think we can assume it's a pact between Honor and the Heralds. Tanavast gave them Honorblades and (maybe) immortality while the Heralds had at least two duties: 1) leading humans during Desolations; 2) keeping Odium at bay (trough suffering a lot of pain) between Desolations. I think duty #2 is "possible" according to the following quotes: - In the Prelude, Kalak says: - In Talenel Interlude, Taln thinks: - In the Second Letter it's said: So I think the Heralds talk of "torture" in a figurative sense: they suffer trying to hold Odium captive. When the Heralds can no more bear the pain, they return to Roshar (preparing humanity for the Desolation) while Odium regains his strength. Perhaps it's very arguable how the Heralds could keep a Shardholder captive (though suffering Hell) but maybe Honor lends each of them a fraction of his power while they are in Damnation. I don't know but let's pretend it's possible. After Aharietiam, the Oathpact is still valid and Odium is kept captive by Talenel. But, with only one Herald holding him, Odium had much more freedom than before. Now, I don’t know if in this condition Odium could flee from Damnation or if simply Taln withdrew from his duty but I think that, during the time of Recreance, Rayse freed himself and used this opportunity to kill Honor (maybe weakened from lending too much power to Talenel, in order to help him in keeping Odium at bay alone). After killing Tanavast, I believe Rayse had no much strength for fighting a Desolation but he tried anyway to further weaken mankind defense. He confronted the Radiants on the treachery of the Heralds and the possibility of fighting without their lead (likely meaning being destroyed by the Voidbringers). But Odium offered a treat: there would be no Desolation if the Knights Radiant gave up their positions. So the Radiants accepted and broke their oaths wile Rayse returned to Damnation, waiting for his opportunity (striking when men weren’t defended by Heralds or Radiants and Surgebinding was forgotten). I don’t exclude that (in this speculation) the death of Honor, that perhaps weakened the Nahel Bonds of the Radiants, had a part in their decision of stepping back. Now, in WoR it's said that only nine Orders out of the ten broke their oaths: I think that the latters are the Skybreakers: probably they are trying (from the Recreance until now) to kill other Surgebinders in order to keep the 'treat' with Odium and avoiding a new Desolation. The Order that didn't break his oaths could also have been that of the Bondsmiths: they (and their squires, because there were very few members) could have become Ardents and tried to unite Roshar in Vorinism trough the Hierocracy (against the threat of Odium). But I like the idea of the Skybreakers better. Thanks for reading until the end XD Sorry if my English was bad: it's not my native language.

I didn't want to thread-jack, and although I'm sure there must be a good thread foe this somewhere, my forum-fu has failed me and I can't find one where this is the focus of the original discussion. So, how is it done? Does Odium wait until a Shard is already weak, before smashing himself against it (as per Vin taking down Ati, but more unbalanced)? I suspect if this was the method, he'd need a long time to recover as he'd inevitably be depleting his own essence by doing so. Others have speculated on the quote from Tanavast, that it may in some way come down to a fight between champions, some kind of Vassal chosen by the Shards. Still others have considered the idea that it in some way involves the larger population of a world, and that Alethkar and the Thrill may be a clue towards this. For myself, I don't know, but it's fun to speculate. As a final point, here's a quote from Elantris, the last line of chapter 6: A simple observation, or the legacy of Odium's visit to Sel? You decide!

My friend has a theory that if someone were to bond all ten Honorblades at once, they would become the Shard of Honor. Any thoughts on this?

At the Portland signing for Shadows of Self, I asked Brandon if all the shards had a opposite paired, and he replied to the effect that "Philosophically speaking, you could argue they did, but not all had polarized opposites like Preservation and Ruin." That got me thinking about what the other opposites would be for our known shards. Odium (Hatred) Would likely be opposite to Devotion (Love). The new found Autonomy (Free will) would likely be opposite to Dominion (Control). That in turn made me realize that the shards were paired with something like them. Odium and Devotion are both Higher emotions. Autonomy and Dominion are both Ideologies. Preservation and Ruin are both Natural Forces. So i started pulling apart the remaining shards and trying to guess what their paired shard would be. Though only one I'm even slightly confident in is Honour's Pair. Abuse. Honour is to bring people together, to protect those weaker than yourself, to defend and protect. Abuse is to break bonds, hurt those who can't defend themselves, to attack and destroy. What Magic system do we know of that might fit Abuse? Ashyn, the world of Silence Divine has a system where people purposely infect themselves with diseases to grant them selves supernatural abilities. They hurt their own bodies for personal gain, and spread the infection to others, hurting them as well. It fits. Less so than other intents might, but it fits well enough. So, in conclusion, or TL;DR: Abuse might be a shard and Honour's opposite. It's probably on Ashyn. Please, throw as many WoB's at me as you can, proving or disproving all or parts of this theory. EDIT: Nevermind. Found a Wob saying there is no Shard on Ashyn at the moment.

Hi all, I was rereading The Alloy of Law prior to Shadows of Self, and I noticed something interesting (at least I found it interesting). During a conversation between Miles and Mister Suit (Ch. 15) they talk about the following: Suit snorted. “And it’s said that the Roughs are the place where honor goes to be murdered.” “It’s the place honor goes to be strung up, flayed within an inch of its life, then cut down and left in a desert. If it survives something like that, it’ll be stronger than hell. Certainly stronger than anything you have at your Elendel dinner parties.” Kaladin being a child of Tanavast/Honor, was strung up to be flayed by the storm, cut down by bridge 4, and became stronger from it (e.g., Teft noticing Kaladin feeding upon the light, which set Kaladin down the path). The desert could be referencing the shattered plains due to the high storms. Do you think this was a coincidence or a nod from Brandon to those who follow the Cosmere?

“And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row.” - Bob Dylan, “Desolation Row” THIS POST IS INTERPRETATION AND SPECULATION. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. Desolations are the critical narrative element of SLA, even more than the Highstorms Brandon based on Jupiter’s Great Red Spot. What are they, what causes them, what is their purpose, how do they begin, how do they end? I made an earlier attempt to answer and will now try again. Brandon seems fascinated by the question he has Kaladin ask: “Can you kill to protect?” Vin says that’s humankind’s nature: “Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.” (HoA, Tor Softcover, p. 711.) This theme informs my interpretation of Desolations. Because Desolations are so central, a proper exposition requires background and context. I’ve written a number of posts to provide this context, some of which are controversial. To summarize before proceeding: “The Origin of the Cosmere” presents my view that all Cosmere magic begins in the Cognitive Realm with a cognitive command of some sort. I later described unconscious healing as an example of the general rule. “The Shattering” asserts that Adonalsium was Shattered vertically, along the fault lines of each mandate (intent), rather than horizontally across the spectrum of powers. IOW, each Shard has the same powers; the only difference from Shard to Shard lying in the powers’ expression through each mandate. I identify each known “Mandate.” Honor is “Relationships.” Cultivation is “Survival.” Odium is “Aggression.” I’m not wedded to any of these words, although I’m comfortable with the latter two. I do think “Relationships” fits Honor both conceptually and in how I think Honor expresses his power, but the word itself stinks. I’m open to suggestions on that one… I describe the nature of spren and why Radiant spren enter the Physical Realm with sentience only and not sapience until they bond. I assert that Honor made the souls of the Heralds into “identity spren” implanted in the Honorblades. That post also claims the Honorblades are “Voidbinding fabrials” that cause the Heralds’ “torture.” Later I conclude that the Heralds’ souls/identity spren must bond with the Stone Shamans when they emerge in advance of a Desolation. I argue that the Nightwatcher is a cognitive prison for Odium, part of how he is entrapped on Roshar. I also argue that Stormlight consists of the investiture of all three Shards forged by the Honorblades, another part of his prison. And I argue that in Shadesmar thoughts can kill. I believe a Shard’s best and easiest tactic to kill another Shard is to destroy its mind, its ability to direct its power. I believe that’s what Odium did when he splintered Dominion, Devotion and Honor. I am still developing this argument. Below is a summary of my theory of Desolations, without textual citation. Originally this summary was the introduction of a longer essay. Unfortunately (fortunately?), I’ve now grown too weary to write it. But I didn’t want to deprive you folks of your regular target practice. So here it is, in bare form, weaving together the ideas generated in the above-cited posts. What Desolations are the wars between Honor/Cultivation surrogates and Odium surrogates. Voidbringers include anyone under Odium’s influence. That means listeners, thunderclasts, humans and others. I speculate Odium spren resurrect dead greatshells as thunderclasts and dead – and disturbed – listener remains as the “mindless” Unmade (so described by the Diagram). I’ve stated throughout my posts that Odium’s investiture doesn’t bond. How then does Odium exercise influence? WoB states Odium has found a “hole” to “pour” his investiture into (like Hamlet’s uncle poured poison into King Hamlet’s ear). This is different from actually bonding with the host. My analogy to explain the difference is this: place an electrode into an insect’s body. You can control the insect’s behavior through the electrode. But the electrode is never PART of the insect’s body. If you destroy the electrode, the insect is still an insect. But imagine instead you spliced genes into to the insect’s body, so the insect no longer is an insect. It is now whatever that combination causes this new entity to be – a Knight Radiant, perhaps. (Or a Greatshell or Ryshadium?) That’s the difference between “carrying” investiture and bonding with investiture. Odium can only cause the former. Why Desolations impair Odium’s capacity to free himself from Greater Roshar. Humans are more susceptible to Odium’s influence than native Rosharans and better serve Odium’s purposes. Honor and Cultivation periodically need to “prune” their numbers (and also destroy other Voidbringers). Who Odium began the cycle. He created war on other planets to drive humans to Roshar. (WoB confirms that “the races are more distinct [on Roshar] and rub each other the wrong way…”) Once there, they committed genocide against listeners, wreaking “Desolation” upon them. In order to fight Odium (and incidentally to protect the listeners), Honor offered the Oathpact to the Heralds: fight for Honor against Voidbringers, who then mostly included Odium-influenced humans. Otherwise, Honor would annihilate ALL of Roshar’s humans if necessary to defeat Odium. At some point, Odium figured out how to influence listeners, and the Desolations lost their racial character. During the Vorin period, the original nature of Desolations was ignored, forgotten or deliberately reversed. How Roshar’s Physical Realm gaseous investiture – Stormlight – consists of equal amounts of each Shard’s investiture. Desolations begin when an “investiture imbalance” develops in Stormlight. Spren count as investiture. Honor made each Herald’s soul into an “identity spren” residing in an Honorblade. The Honorblades both monitor and consume investiture. When the imbalance develops, the spren emerges and bonds with a Stone Shaman, current keepers of the Blades. That Shaman-now-Herald signals the Desolation. When the Desolation ends, the Honorblade consumes the Herald’s identity spren, returning it to the Blade. Otherwise, the presence of the identity spren itself causes an investiture imbalance that would lead to a new Desolation, as Brandon has said. Desolations end when the Honorblades sweep Roshar clean of unbonded investiture, including spren. I speculate that the Stone Shamans are the “current” Honorblade keepers because they are somehow related to Talenal, the one Herald who remained “true” (because he “died”). I don’t know whether Heralds had squires or whether some KR from each order attended to their patron Herald. But the Stone Shamans represent Talenal, whom Taravangian describes as the “Ancient of Stone” and whom Nale describes (IMO) as the “Spren of Stone.” IMO if other Heralds had “died,” there would be additional Keepers of the Blades. Next Unlike Desolations, the Everstorm IS of Odium’s design. It brings on the True Desolation (the destruction of most of Roshar) and the Night of Sorrows, when the Everstorm reaches Urithiru, blocking both daylight and Stormlight. That’s the basics. Before you take aim, please make sure you’re wearing your orange vests… AND HAPPY LABOR DAY WEEKEND!

Hi there, This is my first post so it might have already been covered, if so thats my bad. It covers a few of the books so feel free to correct me if it is contradicted somewhere or if you have things to add. I was thinking about how Odium splintered the shard of Honor. I think that the honorblades that the Heralds wielded are actually the remnants of what is left of the shard of honor. This is why they can grant magically abilities to someone who previously could not access magic on Roshar. Also I wonder if they were all collected if they could reforge the Shard of Honor. If this is true then it would mean that the shards of Devotion and Dominion would have items that were made from their remnants. Brandon has said that the Aons inside of the Seons are splinters of Devotion so what are the splinters of Dominion? Also what would happen if a splinter of Devotion, a Seon, and a splinter of Honor, an honorblade, were combined like when Sazed combined the shards of Ruin and Preservation in the Mistborn series?

THIS POST CONTAINS LOTS OF SPECULATION. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. THANKS! Brandon states that Roshar is a heavily-invested planet as compared with Scadrial. Though the aggregate amount of investiture available on Roshar IS greater, I think Brandon refers to the amount of power actually invested in the planet. Harmony touches Scadrial with a light hand. Roshar, in contrast, abounds with “living ideas” – spren – that don’t even belong in the Physical Realm. (See “A Confused Primer on Spren.”) How did that come about? How does Roshar’s magic work? Where does all that investiture come from and where does it go? A. Adonalsium’s “Design.” Roshar bears Adonalsium’s “touch and design.” (WoR, Chapter 66 Epigraph.) Brandon has said that Adonalsium left power on Roshar that developed sentience on its own. We don’t know whether he/she/it left that power there deliberately or as part of the Shattering, or for whatever reason. I speculate that most “natural” spren (defined below) are from Adonalsium, though that’s unconfirmed. 1. “Natural” spren are those that carry no imprint of human thought or emotion. Humans are not originally of Roshar. Adonalsium’s spren, therefore, would be the ones listeners are familiar with: windspren, rainspren, angerspren – even the “Rider of the Storms” himself. These spren now may be colored by human thought and Shardic influence, but they must have existed originally in some “natural” (Adonalsium-created) form with which listeners could bond. a. Human experience – emotionally individualistic coupled with an ever-changing material culture – varies far more than the listener experience of communal emotional response (the rhythms) and a static material culture. An individualistic culture will create more, and more varied, spren than a communal one. These are simply differences in temperament and culture, not differences in emotional or intellectual capacity. Eshonai and Venli are a match for any human. b. Temperamental and cultural differences do mean that far fewer kinds of spren existed on Roshar before the human migrations. Spren spawned or modified by human thought or emotion would NOT be “natural” spren left by Adonalsium. 2. There’s lots of Forum speculation (with which I agree) that the listeners are the original humanoid life form on Roshar, or at least they migrated there before humans. Brandon hints that Adonalsium created the listeners, but that’s unconfirmed. He also says he modeled the listener chants on Carl Jung’s idea of the “collective unconscious.” That means spren of a commonly-held form – a non-human-inspired form – communicate with one another in the Cognitive Realm and, through them, the listeners do as well. 3. Brandon has confirmed that Highstorms started as purely meteorological, non-magical events, presumably before the arrival of the Shards. I’m sure the Highstorms had their share of wind and rain, but Brandon’s statement suggests they did not bear investiture. 4. Roshar’s seasons also appear to be magical. Though a Rosharian year is 500 days (20 hours per day), Roshar has multiple seasons during that year, each lasting only a few weeks. These seasons bear no relation to Roshar’s orbit around its sun or the angle of Roshar’s rotation on its axis. Brandon has said that the youth of Roshar’s sun should make its planets incapable of birthing life. We don’t know whether Adonalsium or the Shards caused these magical anomalies. B. Honor and Cultivation’s Arrival. Sometime post-Shattering, Honor and Cultivation arrive on Roshar. Brandon has suggested a romantic involvement between the two. Because Shards retain their “thoughts and personalities” despite their ascension, I speculate that their “romance” continued in Shard form. (I also speculate that Skaize and Aona loved each other and continued to love each other after their ascension as Dominion and Devotion. Wyndle’s lament for “Mother’s” loss of interest in humans following Honor’s death supports these speculations. Wyndle’s “Mother” is generally thought to be Cultivation or, more accurately, her partial spren the Nightwatcher.) C. Odium’s Arrival. Sometime later, after a brief stop on Sel because he apparently doesn’t like couples, Odium arrives. 1. I theorize the Highstorms become invested at this time. (Others believe Adonalsium may have invested the Highstorms after first creating them as mere weather events.) It’s unclear whether Honor and/or Cultivation invest them before Odium’s arrival or whether all three do so more or less simultaneously or in response to one another.. 2. I further speculate that the Shards' investment in Highstorms, particularly Odium’s investment, cause the Highstorms to become more violent. Odium’s Aggression mandate (see “Mandates of the Known Shards”) magnifies the power of the Highstorms and may add the thunder and lightning. Cultivation’s mandate of Survival ensures that life nonetheless continues and even flourishes. (WoB: “Stormlight makes things grow.”) Honor, with his Relationships mandate, binds it all together. 3. I believe each Shard creates its own moon. In order of their rising, I believe the purple Salas (the smallest moon) is Odium’s physical body; the larger pale blue Nomon is Honor’s physical body; and the in-between (size-wise) green Mishim is Cultivation’s. Throughout the books, these colors are thematic of each Shard. Example: “When [Kaladin] passed, the grass pulled back in, looking like the fur of some black beast in the night, lit by Salas.” (WoK, Kindle p. 808 (emphasis added).) “Beast” imagery is also associated with Odium. Whenever Dalinar is enthralled by the Thrill, be “bellows,” “roars” and “growls.” That’s consistent with Odium’s Aggression mandate. 4. All three moons are much closer to Roshar than our moon is to earth. I baldly speculate when Odium killed Tanavast, a chunk of Nomon representing Tanavast’s body fell (or was propelled) to Roshar at Stormseat, causing the Shattered Plains to shatter.