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We know Honor was splintered around the Recreance and that the Recreance was prompted by that generation of Radiants finding out humans were the real Voidbringers, and at that point Tanavast was overtaken by Honor's Intent and was also fighting Odium and so wasn't mentally stable enough to tell the Radiants that they were still morally okay. So what if the Radiants, having not a massive amount of guidance on how shards work, picked up on the fact he was fighting another god from his "ravings", and also noticed how he'd become obsessed with all oaths, good or bad and assumed that this was a consequence of the radiants existing. So what if they decided that they should break their oaths because they thought the oaths were what was draining Tanavast's sanity? Give just how powerful Surgebinding is, we can assume that 9/10 orders of radiant, with most of each type spren probably bonded, all releasing the Investiture they had (kinda) borrowed from Honor did something like in Warbreaker, where The Stormfather also backs this up: The Radiants didn't abandon their oaths because they thought they weren't in the moral right anymore, they abandoned their oaths because they were "try(ing) to protect the world".

So, I've had a couple of theories for a while now that I've wanted to put out there. I don't know if a WoB contradicts them, but I figured I should post this first one. The storm father's explanation in Oathbringer of how the desolations started began with the fuzed and singers attacking humans and the heralds creating the oathpact to stop them. But why exactly did the ancient singers attack in the first place? The way the books are set up, it appears as though after humans arrived on Roshar, they attacked the singers, and the singers retaliated, turning to Odium for power. But this never made much sense to me. First of all, it's never explicitly stated what the humans did to the ancient singers, and second, why would Honor choose to side with human invaders over the people of the world he'd made his home? The first point is actually very important. Sanderson has managed to use character's assumptions to set the tone of the series to great effect so far. Describing the thrill in such a way that readers naturally assumed it to be adrenaline is one of the best examples. The Ella Stele, the ancient document showing that humans were the original VoidBringers, only states that the humans betrayed them, with the betrayal extending to spren, stone, and wind. But, just as with the "Lost Radiants", the betrayal is not explicitly described. That seems intentionally vague to me. As if leaving enough room for something to be interpreted as a betrayal, with the singers interpreting the humans' actions as one, even if it hadn't been intended as one. As I said, the second thing that didn't make sense was why Honor would choose humans who'd supported Odium over the singers who had been of Roshar, especially if they had betrayed the singers who had taken them in. Imagining it as humans going back and forth between Honor and Odium seems unlikely. I think it much more likely that the human abandoned Odium shortly after arriving on Roshar. They saw Honor, and maybe Cultivation, as being more worthy deities, and chose to worship them instead. But then, what triggered the Desolations? Jealousy. As the introduction to chapter 32 of WoR, we get the following passage from a listener's song. The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. This is the passage that sparked this theory when I first read WoR and then Oathbringer a few years ago, with the last line being the most significant to me. If the Listeners had this song, then they knew about the bond between spren and humans/singers. And this passage makes it seem like spren seem to prefer humans to singers for some reason. The betrayals between singers and spren are mentioned in RoW on at least two occasions. The first is mentioned by Blended during Adolin's trial, when she's testifying against him. The second betrayal is implied by Leshwi to Venli, when she says the spren have forgiven them. But what exactly were these betrayals? I think it has to do with how humans can become surge binders much more easily than singers. Syl tells Kaladin in WoR that Parshendi can't become surgebinders, and Venli expresses her surprise to bonding Timbre in Oathbringer for the same reason. I don't know why spren can bond humans more easily, my current guess is because their emotions are more accessible, but if large numbers of spren were drawn to humans and away from singers after the humans arrived, that could easily be seen as a betrayal that extends to the spren, wind, and stones. This leads to my previous conclusion, where singer jealousy is specifically what triggered all this, which is also the betrayal mentioned by Blended. Odium almost certainly fanned the flames, increasing the ancient singers' jealousy of humans drawing the spren, and making them angry at the spren for "betraying" them, but that jealousy was his opening. The singers turned to Odium, who granted them the power to take revenge on humans, which made them the easily manipulated army he wanted. Thoughts?

Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind? Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out. Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't. It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there. Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow.... And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?

Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind? Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out. Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't. It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there. Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow.... And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?

In oathbringer, odium said that I would have to destroy honor's remains as he can already see this going wrong. I am paraphrasing here. What does that mean?

In one of the visions honor said something like ' without the dawnshards the best way to defeat odium is to get him to agree to a contest of champions.' but we were introduced to the dawnshards so might they play a more important role in book 5 than we originally thought?

Hello, I'm new here but I've had a very tenuous theory about Honor's splintering that has been brewing in my mind as I reread the stormlight archive. It is said multiple times in the books that towards the end of Honor's life he condemned the Radiants to eventually destroy Roshar and at least once was said to have seemingly focused more on the actual oaths themselves and not necessarily what they meant. My hypothesis, based on the timing of his death (after Aharietiam but before the Recreance) and the above, is that Honor was able to be splintered because the Oathpact was broken. It would make considerable sense given that the Honorblades are, as far as we can tell, splinters of Honor and the Heralds are likely either entirely splinters or Invested enough by Honor that he would be affected by their choices. Even more, while we don't know exactly how the Investiture of it worked, something like the Oathpact (capable of holding back Odium in many ways until certain conditions were met. I base this on the fact that we don't see Odium's direct influence until Oathbringer which is after the Return begins, and given that we know powerful entities on the Voidbringer side can't enter right away it stands to reason that Odium is at least limited in some capacity from direct influence until the Return has begun for some time.) would likely have to involve Honor's influence or Investiture in some way. It is, after all, an oath and made by his chosen wielding splinters of his power. This, of course, does not explain the actual battle or some such, though I wouldn't be surprised if the Shattered Plains was involved. (It feels too neat to assume that is why they're shattered in the first place, but given how little we know, the possibility is not ruled out in my mind.) But I believe this theory would provide a step forward in understanding both why Honor changed at the end of his life and how he was able to be splintered at all and perhaps, even, why he decided to start divesting himself of his various responsibilities (i.e. creating Honorspren) towards the end of his life. What do you guys think?

I have had this theory for a long time now that Cultivation cultivated Syl as a part of her gambit. But listen to me for once. This might sound crazy but might make sense in a minute. I guess we can all agree that Syl is different from most of the honorspren. She is just too jovial and lighthearted than most honorspren we have seen. Well... also Rua, but that's probably due to his bond with the Lopen. Then I reread the part in Oathbringer when Kaladin returns to Hearthstone. Another pure voice. Pure being the keyword here. I'm certain that spren can hear the Rhythms of Roshar. And the tones of the three Shards are described to be the pure tones of Roshar in RoW. Honor is dead. Why would Odium bother Syl? It is Cultivation's voice. Like tapped crystal. Dalinar described Cultivation's voice to be like 'tumbling stones'. Tapped crystal. Tumbling stone. Maybe I'm overthinking, but both of these voices are of Cultivation. What else did she do? Probably kept Syl sleeping for that millennium. I mean, we can't take the explanation to be Syl's mind being childish. That... doesn't sound Brando's style to me. 'Cause there is only her. Only her. A single spren slept for a thousand years after breaking her bond. Coincidence? I think not. Why? The bigger question is why. Ok now. Hear me. There is too much in my head that I can't remember now or can't explain. But here is my theory. Kaladin is the 'Son of Tanavast'. The successor of Tanavast (refer to this WoB). And Cultivaton wants him alive. Syl is mostly the reason Kal is alive. And that's why we love her. In Book 5, Dalinar loses the contest of champions. Yet, somehow, he will be able to reforge Honor. Instead of bearing the Shard himself, he gives it to Kaladin because now he is bound to serve Odium. And Kal ascends to Honor. I don't have much to support this other than: Kal's first chapter being 'Honor is Dead'. Kal saying 'Honor is Dead'. Cultivation only influences people who will somehow be related to godhood. And Dalinar being too obvious a choice for Honor.

In RoW, Venli mentions “Honor’s Moon” when referring to Nomon (the light blue moon). This got me thinking and I went onto Coppermind. Sure enough, we have a green moon (Mishim) and a violet moon (Salas). The same colours as the Lights. Is Mishim Cultivation’s Moon and Salas Odium’s Moon? It makes sense. Could each moon on Roshar be connected to a Shard?

Three facts that we know: 1) Tanavast and Koravellium were romantically involved (https://wob.coppermind.net/entry/2786) 2) There are probably descendants of the original Vessels still alive today (https://wob.coppermind.net/entry/6383) 3) The Stormfather calls pretty much everyone a Child of Honor, but calls Kaladin a Child of Tanavast (https://wob.coppermind.net/entry/12688) Could it be that Kaladin Stormblessed is a living descendant of Tanavast, the original Vessel of Honor?

This theory has been bouncing around in my head for a few weeks now, mostly revolving around Nikli's insistence that Rysn never become a Radiant and Honor's belief that the Dawnshards are lost to the Knights Radiant. Quotes from Honor: Assuming that the Dawnshard is mostly nonfunctional in a non-invested host, we have to wonder why the Sleepless didn't want Rysn to access that power and why Honor thought that the power of the Dawnshard was impossible for the Radiants to reach or more dangerous than Odium winning. There are lots of reasons I can think of that the Sleepless wouldn't want Rysn to gain power of the Dawnshard-- their mission goes beyond one planet and I could see Rysn's lack of power an acceptable loss. Honor is a little bit harder. I've seen people interpret the quote from Oathbringer as simply not trusting the Knights Radiant, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would he support them for years and then in his death throes suddenly flip and decide that the danger of them getting a Dawnshard was greater than the danger of Odium winning? The other quote complicates that further since he isn't talking about the danger of Dawnshards, but suggesting that the Dawnshards are beyond their reach. From the information we have, I can see two options: Either Honor's knowledge about the Dawnshards and the KR changed, or something about the Dawnshards themselves changed. If Honor didn't know where the Dawnshard was and thought it was no longer on-world, it could make sense that he believes the Dawnshards are lost to them, but it wouldn't explain why he was convinced that the KR would destroy Roshar with one. Since he already knew that the Dawnshard destroyed Adonalsium and Ashyn, it's hard to believe that there was some bit of knowledge about the Dawnshard's capabilities that would suddenly bump them up to "too dangerous." It is possible that something changed about the KR leading up to this, but there's no indication as to what. We know that they abandoned their Oaths believing it was the right thing to do, so it wasn't like they were corrupted or less honorable. In contrast, it is possible that something changed about the Dawnshard, and Odium's interference seems like the most likely reason. I find it less likely that he corrupted the Dawnshard itself, knowing how powerful it is, and more likely that he somehow set things up so that using the Dawnshard would trigger something Very Bad. [Rhythm of War Spoilers] This would explain Honor's sudden belief that the KR couldn't be trusted to use the Dawnshard without destroying Roshar and his statement that without the Dawnshards he had very few tools to help them. It would also give the Sleepless a further reason to not want Rysn or anyone else to have the power to wield the Dawnshard (although they might not even be aware of the trap). I don't think there's enough evidence to say that this is what happened, but a paucity of other explanations for Honor's behavior makes it seem like a strong possibilty. Any other thoughts on possible explanations? Any evidence I've forgotten that contradicts this?

So the Dawnshard novella just recently came out and it had some seriously juicy lore tidbits for all of us to chew on. I'm going to be putting my interpretation of it here along with what I think is a probable timeline of events involving the Dawnshards. Nature of the Dawnshards So Adonalsium gave four primal Commands that spawned the Dawnshards and created the Cosmere. We know that one of them is Change and that together all four were used to Shatter God himself. I'm thinking these Commands are similar to the Christian notion of "Let there be light" while the resulting Dawnshards are a sort of imprint on the world left by the Commands. If God turning on the lights was a boot, the Dawnshard is a boot print. I believe these four Commands were Change, Survive, Unite and Distinguish. I don't know if these are the actual names of the Dawnshards (I would be surprised if Distinguish was 100% correct) but the gist of it remains the same. These four are two sets of two that, while not exactly opposite, are in some respects opposed. None are negative or positive, they simply are. Change and Survive are opposed as survival requires a certain amount of stasis. Unite and Distinguish are opposed as Distinguish implies individuality and unity implies a certain common ground. The Shattering of Adonalsium I believe that at one point they were all combined into a single weapon that was used to Shatter Adonalsium and that Hoid was the one who actually holding the thing when it all went down, as is referenced by Hoid being both "Topaz" as well as the "Bearer of the First Gem" as well as the WoB's that we have stating that the weapon used to kill Adonalsium is drained and inoperable and that Hoid's immortality is derived from it. It's drained because the Dawnshards were removed from it and Hoid's immortality comes from Survive. From Nikli's line in the novella we know that wielding a Dawnshard makes "Demands on a level that no person could ever manage alone..." Thus I believe that while Hoid was the one actually pulling the trigger, there was another group bracing and bolstering him, probably a group of 16, aka the Shardic Vessels. Think the ending scene from Guardians of the Galaxy. Starlord got his hands on the Infinity Stone but he couldn't use it until they all united their strength by using the secret move "Power of Friendship" :). I think that's what happened here only more premeditated God-murder and less dance off. Scattering of the Dawnshards My next bit of wild speculation is that I believe that when Adonalsium was Shattered, the Dawnshards contained in the weapon were scattered to four of the Vessels. Which Vessels got chosen probably had to deal with the specific theme of each Shard of Adonalsium. Cultivation and Ruin, for instance, both fit squarely in the Change quadrant. Here's how I think the Shards fall into the quadrants. Change - Ruin, Cultivation, Endowment Survive - Preservation Unite - Honor, Devotion, Dominion Distinguish - Odium, Autonomy, Ambition Ruin is Change through destruction. Cultivation is Change through improvement. Endowment is Change through transfer. Preservation is Survival through stasis. Honor is Unity through shared ethics. Devotion is Unity through love. Dominion is Unity through law and government. Distinguish is all about individuality (which is why I was having trouble with the word Distinguish. Individuality is not a verb!!!). This would mean the Odium is individuality through emotion, Autonomy is individuality through isolation and Ambition is individuality through accomplishment. I believe that Hoid either got the Survive Dawnshard or had it before the Shattering and the it somehow ended up with Preservation after everything was said and done. It is currently hidden on Scadrial somewhere. Honor got the Unity Dawnshard and took it with him to Roshar. I'm not sure who ended up with the Change Dawnshard but they must have given it up or had it taken from them somehow, probably the former, and it was then carried to Roshar and hidden in the cavern in Akinah. This leaves Distinguish, which I believe fell into Autonomy's hands. It's use might explain her weird avatar situation, granting herself an excess of individuality. She gave it to Odium to use in killing Devotion, Dominion and Ambition. This is how he wiped the floor with them without breaking a sweat, even in a two on one fight. This is also probably why Brandon was cagey about whether Bavadin helped Odium splinter D&D. She didn't really help commit the murder, she just handed the murderer a gun at some point. Dawnshard Battle on Roshar After Odium got done taking out D&D and Ambition, he set his sights on Honor and Cultivation. Big problem here though. Honor had a Dawnshard. I don't think he was actively using it though. It's my guess that there was some sort of agreement among the Vessels to not wield both a Shard and a Dawnshard at once. It would upset the balance of power too much. This is why Survive is being stored away on Scadrial, why Change was sort of floating around until it ended up in Aimia and why Honor was letting Ishar hang on to Unite, which he used to bind the surgebinders with oaths and create the Oathpact. But Odium broke the rules and so Honor took his Unite Dawnshard back to kick some butt. The problem for Honor was that Odium is just insanely more practiced and skilled in Shard on Shard combat at this point and was just more skilled with using a Dawnshard in general. Sure they both had guns but one has a seasoned fighter and the other was an amateur. Regardless Honor was enough of a threat with his Dawnshard that Odium had to take things slow and be cautious. This is also probably why Cultivation stayed out of this for the most part. She wasn't armed. Eventually Odium gets the upper hand and slips in a killing blow but Honor leaves his cognitive shadow, along with the Dawnshard that it's carrying, behind and has it fuse with the Stormfather. This now means that any Bondsmith that bonds to the Stormfather now has access to a Dawnshard as well as the Shard of Honor relative to how closely bonded they are with the Stormfather. The more oaths they say, the closer they get to becoming the Vessel of Honor and attaining the full power of the Dawnshard of Unity. This is probably how Melishi was able to bind the Singers into slaveform. This is probably also how Dalinar is able to Unite the realms. It also occurs to me that this might be a good explanation for why the Recreance happened. Honor was dying and as he was dying he gave his Dawnshard to the Bondsmiths. Since the Dawnshard was presumably what destroyed Ashyn people might have been worried about misusing that power. It would be like the President showing up to your house one day at random, mortally wounded, screamed something about the end of the world and gave you the nuclear launch codes before dying on your couch. Anybody would be freaked out, let alone the descendants of the people who once blew up a planet. They then immediately have their fears validated when Melishi, the new Dawnshard of Unity, uses his newfound power to lobotomize an entire sapient species. Yeah, I can see why they were concerned. Future of the Dawnshards It is my current opinion that at some point in a future book, Dalinar will say his fifth oath and bond fully to the Stormfather. This will cause him to ascend to become the Vessel of Honor and also grant him full access to the Unity Dawnshard. This time however the fight against Odium will go differently because Odium won't be facing kind old Tanavast. He'll be facing the Blackthorn. At that point Dalinar either keeps the Dawnshard or gives it up, either one seems plausible. The Change Dawnshard stays with Rysn for now but that could change in the future depending on how things play out. The Survive Dawnshard is probably being held by Kelsier currently, both because Kelsier is probably the most realmatically aware Scadrian, and thus probably knows all about Dawnshards and realizes that one is on Scadrial, but also because it fits thematically. Kelsier The Survivor, who fought gods and won, gets a god slaying weapon called Survive? It's freaking perfect. I honestly don't know what happens to the Distinguish Dawnshard. It honestly comes down to how the fight with Odium actually plays out. I doubt it can ever be truly destroyed but it might get lost somehow or simply gifted to someone responsible. Some Extra Reasoning Tidbits - I used Survive as one of the Dawnshards because Kelsier mentions hearing a voice tell him to Survive within the Pits and because it fits as a nice clean opposing force to Change. We also know a powerful weapon is hidden on Scadrial. - I used Unite because Dalinar's "I am Unity" moment as well as several mentions of Unity in Elantris in regards to Devotion and Dominions religions. There's also mentions of a Dawnshard that binds things, which I believe is Unite. - Distinguish (still feel like that's not a perfect word) is in there because I needed something to oppose Unity that fit for the remaining three Shards. Individuality seems to fit in my opinion. - As for why Honor mentioned that they won't have access to the Dawnshards, I have no idea. There's already one confirmed to be on the planet and if my theory is right there's another two. Maybe he's saying they can't use them because of the oaths? That seems to be the original purpose of Radiant oaths, to keep the people who could potentially misuse a Dawnshard in check. - I believe the one Dawnshard that is different from the other, as mentioned in a WoB, is the Survive Dawnshard as it's on Scadrial and the other three are on Roshar. - The Shard of Adonalsium that is loosely associated with wisdom and "just want's to survive" is probably in the Survive quadrant. - It seems to me from the line in the novella about Rysn not being able to use the power and the restriction in their contract about becoming a surgebinder suggests that the Dawnshard requires some sort of magic already present in the wielder in order to make it work. This suggests to me that the Dawnshard is less of a powerful spell and more of an amplifier of other magics, making them far more powerful and versatile. This is probably due to the problem that Nikli mentions about needing the breadth of understanding equivalent to a deity. A Dawnshard in a Soother's hands might let them manipulate the minds of everyone on a whole planet because the Soother's powers are being used as a framework in place of that required understanding. A Soother with Dawnshard could probably not manipulate the laws of physics to the same extent as he could manipulate emotions. Maybe a little, but not to the same apocalyptic degree that a Shardic Vessel could. - We know that Hoid derives his immortality from the weapon that killed Adonalsium and we know that he's been cursed to never harm another living thing. I believe that both of those come from the Survive Dawnshard. He survives through anything, including death, because of the residual influence of the Dawnshard. He also can't kill or maim because that's antithetical to the concept of survival. What are your guy's thoughts on all of this? Let's discuss.

I assume Rayzium (the investiture conducting metal the fuzed use) is the god metal of Rayze (Odium). I also assume that given how spren both come from shards and manifest in the physical realm as metal, this metal is the god metal of the associated shard the spren came from. If this is the case, could a mistborn burn a shardblade? If so, what would that do to the spren?

tl;dr version: In this post I will try to convince you that Voidbinding is a nascent magic system of both Odium(“void”) and Honor (“binding”), and present a theory on how it was created Voidbinding doesn't make sense as Odium's magic system The name: we now know from multiple sources that Adhesion, the Surge of binding things together, is the one closest to Honor. The Fused don't even recognize it as a Surge; they talk about Surges, but don't seem to use the word Surgebinding. They are called Voidbringers (I'm sorry, Singers ). Why would Odium's magic have 'binding' in its name? It's pointless: why would Odium grant anybody the power of futuresight if it interferes with his own and ultimately leads to his downfall? 10-centric: Voidbinding has ten levels. Yes, there are nine Unmade and they lack the Bondsith one, but that's just happenstance – we know from the Sibling that the tenth Unmade can be created. Why would Voidbinding be based on the number associated most closely with Honor? Why is the Voidbinding chart so similar to Surgebinding and so unlike the Fused abilities? Lore: the first mentions of mortals using Voidbinding abilities we know seem to be from around the time of the False Desolation: Listener songs mention the Nightform (and BAM as a source of Forms of Power) and we see potential information about corrupted Truthwatcher spren in Urithiru Gem Archive. Besides that we only have the general idea that futuresight is of Odium, but that could have come from the Unmade alone (per Taravangian's word, they all can grant it). There's rich lore about the Unmade, but none about Voidish Surges besides Illumination. The Fused are surprised that Voidspren can bond with humans and they don't see anything weird with the fact that there are no Nightforms around during the Final Desolation. Previously I believed that Voidbinding might have originated on Ashyn, but BAM's deep ties to Roshar seem to disprove that Unexplained phenomena: what's the source of BAM's massive Connection ability? Why did her imprisonment caused so much damage to Roshar if she was just Odium's splinter? Why did the Sibling stop hearing Honor's Rhythm? How could BAM and Sja-anat rebel against Odium's will? Why was Warlight never discovered before? Surgebinding vs fabrials Before we move further, one more thing needs to be discussed: why are there two magic systems of Honor and Cultivation? The Rhythm of War finally gave me some idea about the difference. The fabrials are like feruchemy – they are a perfect balance between the powers of two Shards, as indicated by the nature of the Sibling and the Towerlight. Surgebinding is also of both Shards, but it's biased towards Honor. It uses more of his Investiture: it's powered by Stormlight, Honorblades are Honor's splinters, the most powerful and mystical Order is based around uniting, not growth. What happened with the surplus of Cultivation's Investiture then? It's simple: it became the basis for the Old Magic, a magical “appendage” originating from a single Shard Ba-Ado-Mishram is the source of Voidbinding I believe that's what Odium wanted: a simple set of magical powerful abilities to be used by the Unmade to do his bidding. That's why the Voidbinding was called the cousin of the Old Magic. It was always meant to be used by the Unmade only, not become a full magic system. I believe, however, that at some point something extremely important happened – BAM was infused with Honor's Investiture and completely transformed. I'm not sure how or who did it; we have several plausible suspects: Ishar, Honor, Cultivation and (Dawnshard spoilers) Whoever that was, as a result of their action BAM became deeply Connected to Roshar and turned into something similar to the Sibling. She was suddenly able to produce Warlight and use it to control the Singers, just like the Sibling controls fabrials. She was able to grant Forms of Power from a completely new magic system: full, 10-centric Voidbinding, whose relation to the original Unmade abilities is just like the relation between the Old Magic and Surgebinding. Her abilities (and newfound autonomy) extended, to some extent, to other Unmade, especially Sja-anat, allowing her to corrupt True Spren. The one thing she couldn't do in the days before her imprisonment, however, was to create spren that would grant full Voidbinding – there wasn't simply enough Odium Investiture on the planet. Now, however, the situation has changed: the Everstorm circulates Roshar and clashes with the Highstorm, providing the exact conditions that she needs, once she's released (most likely in Book 5). This will lead to unleashing the full power of Voidbinding, which will become a major plot point (and a weapon against Odium) in Arc 2

I'll cut to the chase: Dalinar is Honor. Rather, Dalinar is the future vessel of Honor. Hear me out... "Unite them" This has been Dalinar's driving motto from the beginning. "Unite" who? The highprinces? The Radiants? The people of Roshar? I don't have a copy of the books in front of me, but here is my logic: We know that all spren are splinters of investiture that gained sentience. Some other spren have gained sapience as well. Radiant spren, for example. We know that all the 'original' Honorspren, except for Syl, where killed in the recreance. We know that Odium "killed" Honors vessel, Tanavast, splintering the shard. Tanavast knew he was going to die and prepared. He 'super-invested' the stormfather. He gave the stormfather the visions and the ability to manipulate them. He probably did other things too that we don't know about yet or that I am forgetting. The driving impetus was for the stormfather to find someone worthy to give the visions to and impart the drive to "unite them". Dalinar exhibits power and abilities that the stormfather doesn't know of. ** Dalinar somehow has the ability to accept the oaths of rising Radiants. ** Unless we are missing something about bondsmith abilities, this shouldn't be possible. Only the Radiant spren or their 'parent' can accept the 'Words'. Dalinar is still a Radiant, albeit of the most powerful order. Thus, in terms of the overarching hierarchy, Dalinar is still at the same level as any other radiant in terms of advancing in ideals. Yet he was still able to accept Kaladin's oath. It is said many times in all the books that "Honor live on in the hearts of men". Which explains why there are still Honorspren. Since Honor lives in the hearts of men, and humans must have been heavily invested before Tanavasts death, then the 'new' Honorspren are formed formed through the Honor of humans and their investiture. My theory, then, is that while Odium may have killed Tanavast, Tanavast splintered the shard of Honor, heavily investing the stormfather and also investing humans. As such, the "Unite them" impetus is referring to Honor's splinters. As in, unite the splinters of Honor back into the shard and take it up as the vessel. Dalinar is on the journey to become the vessel of Honor. Other predictions: Kaladin is a dawnshard. He became such through Syl, who was given the shard to pass on to a worthy individual. Syl, the Ancient Daughter and only surviving Honorspren from when Honor was still 'alive'. No other theory *really* fits with Kaladin's abilities throughout the books and meshes with other well researched theories. Adolin will 'awaken' Maya and they will bond... thus setting the precedent for waking all the deadeyes, if given the chance. That is all, for now

Odium killed Honor, but did he have help? I was going over some death rattles, (getting all kinds of ideas) and had this thought: Did the Heralds kill Tanavast? or somehow knowingly allow Tanavast to be killed? Did they have Cultivation help, did her machinations go back this far, did her power take over her vessel, and she cultivates plots? We know she has sought to replace at least one shard vessel. Chapter 1 Epigraph: "You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!" Is this Tanavast, referring to the heralds, the heralds and cultivation, or maybe cultivation and odium? Why would Cultivation want to kill Honor and let Odium splinter his shard? What motivation? The Rhythm of War. The force created by Odium and Honor, as long as the two existed as equal power, the war would continue. Cultivation and the heralds would both have motivation to stop this. Chapter 54: "The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me." Was this Taln? Tortured on Braise, giving in, unable to take the torture, but Tanavast, being dead, unable to release him? If the herald could not be released, then perhaps the enemy could be locked away, and indeed it was, for a time. Tell me what you guys think.

Just a question, and I apologize if it was asked and answered before: Is there a WOB how the Plains were shattered? The way they look in their symmetry made me think that the fight between Odium / Rayse and Honor / Tanavast might have taken place there and caused some collateral damage i.e. the shattering of the Plains. According to AU the similar fight between Odium and Ambition had devastating consequences for the Threnodite system...

Every chapter in the Stormlight book has a chapter header with an icon representing the PoV character and an arch on top of that with the Double Eye of the Almighty and the faces of the Heralds. The Heraldic visages represent thematic elements of the chapter or characteristics of the chapter narrator, while the Double Eye of the Almighty has been present consistently on every arch in every chapter of every book of the Stormlight Archive so far. I wonder if that's about to change with a new Odium on the block. Going forwards, we might see Double Faces of Passion on the chapter arches.

Honor died, but we have several clues in RoW indicating that he may be re-emerging. We've known since OB that Dalinar has taken up Honor's perpendicularity. Rayse believes Dalinar ascended, but I don't think Dalinar is the one ascending, actually. Like ... like ... like Odium. Everywhere we see red and gold together, it is Odium. Perhaps this is merely an indication that Kal is close to becoming a Child of Odium at this particular moment, howling after losing Teft and then these eyes. At the same time, Odium-red eyes have previously always been caused by a bond with voidspren, which seems not to be the case here. And why would soldiers fear a child of Odium, like themselves? Instead, perhaps these colors point to Kaladin's coming ascension. Honor's robes are gold, as well. Moash's continual insistence surrounding Kaladin's immortality certainly points to ascension. Finally, Tara-Odium notices a "growing" and "verdant" power, which is clearly pointing toward Cultivation. However, just as the back of RoW falsely implies that Navani will be a Lightweaver with its half-dozen references to truths and lies, I believe this most obvious allusion to Cultivation is not the one actually intended. Verdant can also mean brand new and budding. Growing points to something new.

I'm currently rereading WoR and I came across a line that I felt like was quickly glossed over by the characters. I did a little bit of digging on the forums and have seen people discussing Honor's death and how it relates to Odium and the Shattered plains. However, I am curious as to how Honor's death and splintering would have affected Surgebinding. Specifically, Shallan is talking to Jasnah in Ch. 6 and Jasnah says the following: Then Shallan nods and changes the conversation to Jasnah's mental health, with no mention to how Soulcasting has changed. From the AonDor as well as Scadrial magic (when Harmony picks up the shards), we know that there can be fundamental changes to the magic system when the source of the Investiture changes dramatically (splintering or recombining/changing Intent). I'm curious to what this change is on Roshar. Without more thought on the topic my theory is that the previous limitations the Spren provided to the Nahel bond has been altered in some way allowing easier access to the Surges to Radiants with less Oaths (why it could be perceived as more dangerous, more unfettered access and less discipline = danger). I also think it may explain why we haven't seen Shardplate materialize yet as well. We know from Dalinar's flashbacks that there were many Radiants who wielded Sharplate, and so far no Radiant has on screen (despite most being around 3rd or 4th oath). My theory is thus: The splintering of Honor weakened the Nahel bond enabling easier access to the innate surges of Roshar (voidbinding and fabrials also access these surges) while making it more challenging to access the Honor specific benefits (shardblade and plate). Thoughts?

When Preservation and Ruin were splintered, someone took it up again. My theory is that someone wil take up Honor. I think If someone does, it will either be Dalinar or Taln. Do you think this theory makes sense?

Switcheroo Odium lead humans against Singers on Roshar. The Singers wield the investiture of Honor, binding. Odium corrupts the losing Singers (he's good at corrupting) and abandons the humans. Honor is a sucker for redemption and takes the party of the betrayed humans. Corrupted Singers are invested by Odium, so they can return and take vengeance. Braize, The Everstorm and the Oathpact Honor selects 10 Odium-invested humans, names them Heralds and make them bond to Braize somehow Heralds are reborn on Braize in the Everstorm As long as the Heralds are on Braize anything else stuck up there can't return to Roshar - they just get reborn in the Everstorm Odium isn't on Braize, but the Fused are, and they torture the Heralds until one breaks and the Everstorm returns to Roshar The Oathpact involves voluntary return to Braize to help out the other Heralds, so they can help each other resist the torture Each Honorblade binds an Unmade to Braize Radiants and Honor Weakening Honor is weakened by increasingly divesting investiture to create Nahel Bonds between Spren and Radiants After many Desolations investing in increasing number of Spren and Bonds, he's so weak that he fails to stop the Heralds from abandoning Taln The Honorblades don't go to Braize, so 9 Unmade stick around on Roshar Taln binds the Everstorm (10th Unmade and perhaps Odium's Perpendicularity) to Braize Fall of Tanavast and Unity of Dalinar The weakened Tanavast is baited by the suffering of Taln to go to Braize and try to bind the Unmade himself Odium kills Tanavast, and like Leras on Scadrial, this greatly weakens Honor Like on Scadrial the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast can stick around carrying the shard Odium imprisons the weakened Shadow of Honor on Braize - it's a prison with special rules and those rules can be used to keep Shadow-Tanavast stuck up there Dalinar summoning the perpendicularity may have allowed Shadow-Tanavast to return to Roshar unless Odium rushed back to Braize to act as the jailor So while Honor is splintered and dead, the cognitive shadow still exists on Braize. Odium does not want the shadow to "die". When the cognitive shadow of Leras died by investing all remaining power into Vin, the resulting Shard-Vessel combination was much more powerful. A vessel cannot simply transition to the Spiritual Realm on death. Rayse/Odium baited Tanavast/Honor to Braize and killed him there. It's not Odium who is jailed on Braize - it's Honor. What does Odium want? He hates everything and wants to be hated. He wants to splinter all other shards. So he's probably going for Cultivation. How to bait out Cultivation, the shard that doesn't invest permanently much? Salt the earth. Desolation. Where nothing grows. He needs to get rid off the Stormfather and Dalinar as those two can transport Tanavast off Braize.

So I've seen the idea that Tanavast's cognitive shadow has been absorbed by the Stormfather, but when I looked for WoB's about it, I found this: This WoB directly contradicts the theory that Tanavast is still alive. is there some other WoB that I didn't find? Or have people just not noticed this WoB?

Okay, my brother came up with this theory on un-splintering Honor. It's fairly simple: Just as Spren fill the cracks in your soul with power, the Stormfather could fill the cracked power of Honor, reforging the Shard. It seems to fit thematically, but there are 2 possible problems that I can see: 1. The Stormfather might not be invested enough. As we have little idea of how invested the Stormfather is compared to a Shard, and even less of an idea of how much Investiture it would take to repair a Shard, I can't really refute or confirm this problem. 2. The power of Honor might be too splintered. Normally, a persons soul would be cracked, but Honor's power is completely splintered into small chunks, as far as we know. This could be offset by Dalinar or whoever the Stormfather Bondsmith is connecting themselves to Honor extremely securely, or possibly by all the Bondsmiths working in conjunction with each other to bind the power back together. Let me know if you see any other problems with this theory, and please feel free to bring up any relevant WoBs.

I've only read a couple books (tWoK is the only SA book I've read thus far) so I'm a little early still, but can someone help me understand why Honor's magic system is still intact if he is dead? Like, what happens when a shard is shattered? Does it still sort of function but is unable to be picked up? I'm okay with a couple spoilers theory-wise, but if you are unable to answer this question without giving plot spoilers just say so, I can just read and find out like everyone else Thanks.