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I don't think I have seen a fully Cosmere-aware timeline of Roshar so I decided to make one for myself and I'm also posting it here. Please correct anything I messed up! I love this world and I want to have the most accurate information available about it. Enjoy! Pre-Shattering So in the beginning, there was a capital-g God. And his name was Adolnalsium. Among other things, he created Roshar. He made the Highstorm and the spren and the chasmfiends and the Dawnsingers and little cremlings and shalebark. He made it all to work together perfectly. He made the highstorms, and the Stormfather, and spren; and he made them to have bonds with the creatures of Roshar. With chasmfiends that are too light. And with ryshadium, with the Dawnsingers, with lots of things. Post- Shattering And then, Adolnalsium was shattered and Honor and Cultivation came to roshar. And they kind of did nothing. They kept the status quo. They left what Adolnalsium had created, and they just let it flourish. Eventually, Rayse got trapped in the Rosharan system by Honor. Somehow. Humanity Then Rayse, Odium, went to Ashyn and he created humanity. Eventually, they found surgebinding and destroyed their planet. And, (presumably, Odium helped them with this step) they traveled to Roshar. The dawnsingers gave them Shinovar. And they lived there for a while. They planted the grass and strawberries and basically founded the Shin. At some point, humanity decided that Shinovar wasn't enough and so they expanded over. That was the First Desolation. For a while, the humans were winning. So the dawnsingers went to Odium for power and he gave them The Fused. Then. The dawnsingers were winning with Odium's help. So humanity went to Honor, who gave them the Honorblades. Now, with that power. The humans can fight back. There's still losing though. So, they formed the Oathpact. They make a pact to trap the souls of the Fused and the spren of Odium on Braize. Weird thing about that deal, the Harolds had to go with the forces of Odium to Braize. This means they could be tortured into breaking their Oaths (because humans can break their Oaths) and returning everyone on Braize to Roshar. They let the Voidbringers return to Roshar. The Heraldic Epochs That happened for a little while. The heralds would try to prepare humanity for the Desolation. And then voidbringers would slowly start to come over like we see happen in Oathbringer. Then, there's kind of a full-scale war. Like we see in Rhythm of War. At some point, humanity realizes that they're going to lose. They can't beat the Voidbringers this time. So they talk to the heralds and they're like, "all right, it's time. We're not going to be able to win this right now" (like we see Jasnah propose in RoW). To answer that plea, the heralds all die one way or another to all return to Braize together so they can keep back the voidbringers from Roshar. Eventually, they discover the Knight's Radiant, which helps in all of that. Eventually, the heralds decided that there might be a better way. So they leave Taln to fight for himself on Braize. And they all stay on Roshar and it works. For six thousand years it has worked. The voidbringers and Odium can't get off of Braize. The Era of Solitude The Era of Solitude is the 6000 years without Taln on the planet, from Aharietiam to the Coming of the Everstorm. The Rosharan records of this time are much more complete than the previous histories so it isn't as much of a mystery in the Cosmere what happened during the Era of Solitude. False Desolation Around 2500 years after Aharietiam, Ba Ado Mishram (an Unmade) Connected with all the Singers on Roshar. She gave them all forms of power, much as Odium did. But she was not as powerful as Odium so she was able to be trapped in a gemstone, severing her Connection with the Singers. This made nearly every Singer on Roshar into a parshendi. I say "nearly" every Singer because a group ran away just before all of Ba Ado's drama went down. They named themselves the Listeners and settled in Natanatan. The Recreance The Radiants had handicapped an entire race of people and that tends to shake up Oaths from people who consider themselves of Honor. Around the same time, Honor was losing his mind due to unknown actions from Odium. He started to speak of the First Desolation and the destruction of Braize. He told the Radiants that their powers had already destroyed one planet and that they would destroy this one. For those reasons, the Knights Radiant and their Spren decided to abandon their Oaths and their powers. This became known as the Day of Recreance. All bonded Spren (save Highspren) became deadeyes. Nearly all of the Honorspren and several other varieties were wiped out in a day. The Spren will remember this pain for generations to come. The Death of Honor We know very little of what caused Tanavast's death and the subsequent shattering of Honor by Odium. We do know that he was losing his mind in the time leading up to this. We know that he knew it was coming because of his actions regarding the Stormfather. Up until this point, the Stormfather was just the Spren of the Highstorms. A very powerful Spren but not directly related or Connected to a shard of Adolnalsium. But when Honor was dying, he kind of took over the Stormfather. Put some of the power of Honor into the storm. He left the Visions that Dalinar and others see before the True Desolation. He prepared for his death and the coming of the Everstorm. I believe Honor's death and shattering happened in the location that would become the Shattered Plains. I think that when Odium shattered Honor, it created such a strong force that the plains broke into thousands of symmetrical plateaus. The True Desolation Eventually, forces of Odium on Braize work around Taln. They create their own Everstorm. This storm acts as a portable perpendicularity. A source of Odium's power and a way for his troops to walk back to Roshar. This storm only existed in the cognitive realm (as that's as close as they could get it to Roshar while they were stuck on Braize). Then, they sent Ulim in a gemstone to the Listeners via a world hopper. Ulim worked with a Listener to discover Stormform and summon the Everstorm. This act caused the deaths of almost all Listeners. Then, the events of Oathbringer, Rhythm of War, and Knights of Wind and Truth.

HAHAHAHA I have made a club so niche that nobody will ever join it. The 2nd Punic War! Carthago delenda est

*I am not making a religious statement or expressing an opinion. I am stating historical facts that are supported by documents and research.* I am currently reading the Robert Langdon series by Dan Brown. It is a fictional book, but it includes lots of actual historical facts. In the book I am reading right now, they are discussing pagan religions and historically what was worshipped. There is a lot that goes into this, but I will simplify as best I can. Almost every single religion, up until the time of Christ revered women as equal or superior to men. The main religion I am going to focus on is Christianity itself. Eve was revered as the woman who brought life into the world, with the help of Adam. She was revered as a sacred female, who needed to be protected and kept holy, sanctified for all time. In Hebrew, the name Eve translates to Havah. Eve was kept holy and sanctified, and now the havah protects the other women's sanctity. I think Brandon is keeping women protected in his books using the epitome of sanctity and holiness in the Christian religion. This was worded really poorly, but I hope y'all get the idea of what I am trying to say.

I am creating a Scadrian history for my tarot cards (which are an in-world deck). I would really appreciate any input on the history as written, and any ideas for the history to make it more cohesive and ‘realistic.’ The two threads dealing with the cards are here: Thank you!

The Knights Next Prequel is a roleplay set in 70's Europe, focusing on the events of the Cold War. Rules/guidelines/random setting things: The two primary magics are the Metallic arts (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy), and the Sellish magics. The perpendicularities are all connected/in one place. The plot will focus on the separation of these. They are in an unknown location NATO higherups know about investiture and send investiture users on espionage missions into the USSR The countries that make up NATO keep the knowledge of magic to themselves. Civilians demonstrating the ability to use investiture are immediately conscripted The USSR probably knows about investiture, but NATO isn't quite sure yet You can play anyone on either side Normal RP rules apply All 16 allomantic metals are in play. Lerasium and atium are only known as myths, but NATO has a team dedicated to finding them in an attempt to make super-supersoldiers Anyone with knowledge about the cold war, please let me know if any of this seems off/anachronistic. History will be followed closely, but dates of things may change. NATO is probably more of a military organization here than it was in actual history You can have as many characters as you want, provided they are all well-rounded and contribute something useful IT is currently 1972 Character sheets: Use the ones from TKND. Characters: Bookish - Asger Sorana - Wita Itiah - Marcel Wyndle - Charles Dapper - Quinn

Hello and welcome to the Alleyverse! Our active Alleymods are @Voidus, @MacThorstenson, @Sorana, @I think I am here., and @AonEne. As our last guide is nearly two years old, I felt like restructuring and updating everything might be in order. As @Voidus did before me, I will base this on all guides that have been created so far, and resturcture it to make the information more easily accessible. I also added some content that might be helpful for new and old players, hopefully to close a few gaps we left open so far. Special thanks also to @Mraize and @Archer for your guides (The Alleyverse (Defined) and The Alleyverse Explained) and to @MetaTerminal for creating our wiki. I will keep this thread locked, as it is for reference purposes only. If you have any information you would like to add, please PM me! If you have any questions about the setting, the guilds, or just need some general support, please use The Chat Thread. Links Disclaimer: The Seventeenth Shard does not guarantee or monitor the quality or nature of content hosted by any third party. Alleyverse Wiki Alleyverse Discord Table of Contents 1) Rules and FFRP Ground Rules & FFRP Thread types Dueling & Fighting other characters 2) How to start What do I need to do to join? How can I create a character? 3) Setting and background information The Setting & Eras Guilds Creatures Maps (from 2018)

Parshendi. Listeners. Singers. All the same? When'd the names "listeners" and "singers" divide? So they lived on Roshar with Cultivation and Honor. Then humans brought Odium with them to Roshar after destroying their last home with Surgebinding. Parshendi gave them Shinovar. Then...what? Used Surges forbidden to the Parshendi? When did the humans start fighting the Parshendi? I seem to remember something about the humans gradually taking over the homes of the Parshendi. And what's the deal with the spren abandoning the listeners for humanity? I don't remember any of the spren saying anything like that. From what I remember of Syl and Pattern, it seems like they fear the Parshendi and seek to eradicate them for fear of being forced into bonding with them.

In the beginning, there were the universes. Every possible one existed separate and apart form the others. Nothing connected them except for the primordial vacuum that they floated in. This vacuum is known as the Void. It is impossible for mortals to understand the Void in its true essence. To attempt a description, I will use the metaphor that I was told once. The Void is like the alleyway between buildings, but on a inter-cosmic scale. The universes are like different buildings in a city, and the Void is like the Alleyway in between the two buildings. There was a being who resided inside of the Void. His name is Voidus. similarly to the Void, it is impossible to understand his true form, but to try to understand him, I will use a quote from a very helpful member of the reptilian royalty. He stated that "A Voidus is pages upon pages of Epic profiles, It is a spike in the back in a dark alley. It is a slowpoke with a horriffic crab monster parasitically attached to its tail. It is, to put it simply... the void that is in all of us." Voidus wanted one thing, to be able to push the bounds of knowledge, and sell cookies while he was at it. So he used his ability to maneuver around universes to found an organization that would accomplish these goals. They would push the bounds of the most complicated and elegant of sciences, Hemalugy, and sell the spikes in cookies. The trick was actually getting people to buy their products. The members of this organization were the People you wouldn't want to meet in a Dark Alley. The people who would stab you in the back with a spike. Those who were connected with Voidus. Who shared his purpose, his drive. They played to their advantages, selling cookies in the backs of dark alleys. This was the foundation of the organization modernly known as the Dark Alley, known as the DA for short. To accomplish their second goal, Voidus realized that they would need a base of operations. To do this, he set up labs on the various worlds, because communication was impossible between the universes for anyone that wasn't a cosmic being. Unfortunately, these labs kept on rediscovering the wheel. They would make the same discoveries, once one on Earth discovered something, one on Nalthis would discover the same thing a week later. He realized that they needed a way to communicate, to share ideas for the progression of science. To accomplish this he founded the allies. He took some of the essence of every single universe, and wrapped around a single spike that he had stabbed through a random universe, to spike out its cosmic stability. He inserted the spike into the void, and stabbed it into it. This new found place, where bits of all the universe were connected, became the alleys. They became the shortcuts between buildings in the cosmic city. This was to be the Head Quarters of the Dark Alley. The World Spike was ahemalurgic spike that literally holds the alleyverse together. It was placed by Voidus in the beginning. To help prevent accidents, <REDACTED FOR SECURITY REASONS*>. Visually, the Alleys looked like an endless plane of alleys cutting through a city of empty buildings. Truly infinite, they followed no logical order, shifting and moving themselves to create the shortest path to what ever place a person needed. Its important to note, that the alleys are not under our control. As members of the DA, Voidus lets us manipulate the alleys to better achieve our mission. People who aren't members of the alleys don't have access to their spacial warping abilities. They aren't able to move the alleys like we can. The allies were connected to the different universes through their allies. Anything that was perceived to be a Dark Alley in the multiverse, could be used to teleport into any part of the allies by a denizen of the dark allies. To cover his creation from the rest of the multiverse, Voidus created a more physical representation of the alleys. If the Alleys were the cognitive realm, subject to the perception of Voidus, or whoever needed to use them and was granted power by voidus, this was the physical realm. Subject to the physical laws of earth and the cosmere and randland (these were the universes closest to the alleyverse) it was what most would consider the normal part of the alleyverse. It was built using the alleys as a base, a foundation, which were built using the world spike. People eventually found out about the allies. This physical plane was where they could safely reside. (for non denizens, the allies posed a danger. without cognitive manipulation it was nearly impossible to avoid the hordes of eldritch horrors that populated this plane.) On this physical plane, people gathered into guilds, each one with a goal. Many guilds rose to oppose the DA, but they eventually fell as they weren't strong enough. Other guilds survived for many years. Then, the plague struck. This was known as the plague of inactivity. It destroyed many guilds, most of their members left, either to join the infected, or to escape its horrible effects. The DA was able to survive, because of the Allies, and the fact that it could always retreat to its original labs on various worlds. It was the only guild left in the wreckage. Eventually, activity returned to the Alleyverse. With new guilds such as the Canton of Combat, TUBA, the Ghostbloods, the Liebrary, among others. you can see this modern history of the Alleys by reading various records. *Please note that the defenses of the world spike have been written and recorded, and when the RP reaches a point where they are necessary to reveal, the DA will provide a description with timestamps to show when they were finalized.

So, in Oathbringer, we found out that Humans were the original Voidbringers. We also found out that modren Voidbringers are led by the Fused -- Ancient spirits of past Singers given great power by Odium taking control of a modren Parsh body. We know that the Oathpact was formed to keep the Parshspren imprisoned on Braize.. This means that the history of the Desolations is as such: Humans came with Odium to Roshar. They are given Shinovar to inhabit. --Girl Who Looked Up-- Humans have begun to spread beyond the bounds of Shinovar, and are violently taking land. The First of Desolations. --Odium offers some deceased Singers great power, and they accepted-- The Parsh have begun to side with Odium, as opposed to Honour and Cultivation. --Oathpact formed with Honour and the Ten Heralds-- Humans have now sided with Honour, and the cycle of Desolations has begun. Somewhere in here, Spren begin to mimic the Honourblades and bond with Humans -- It is unknown how Binding worked before this. --Aharietiam happens-- The Heralds, all but Talenel, have given up. The Oathpact is being maintained by a single Herald. The Knights Radiant stand guard over Humanity, and protect it from the False Desolation. --The Knights Radiant trap Ba-Ado-Mishram, ending the Forms of the Singers. The Recreance happens-- Many years later, Words of Radiance happens. The True Desolation has begun.

Simple theory, but profound historical Rosharan implications. The girl who looked up tells the story of a girl who climbed a wall forbidden wall only to find on the other side that she was the monster all along. On the other side they also had Stormlight, and Storms. After she climbed her people experienced these things as well. (Ostensibly). Meanwhile, we have some interesting facts. Shinovar is behind a giant wall of mountains. The storms have no power there. There are few (or no?) Spren. There may not be any Stormlight (unconfirmed). Shinovar has a typical ‘human’, Yolish environment, whereas the rest of Roshar is profoundly alien. The Shin religion holds walking on stone to be profane, meaning religious shin can never leave their valley. The Shin also see using Stormlight as illumination to be profoundly disturbing, implying it’s too holy to use like that and that they don’t have/use Stormlight. Meanwhile, the Listeners were the native rulers of Roshar, who have since been delegated to a slave species. THEORYTIME: The stone shamans prohibition against walking on stone wasn’t originally strictly religious; it was part of a deal, a treaty. Humans settled on Roshar in the Shinovar valley, likely with shardic or other magical help (dawnsingers?), but either way some serious terraforming was done to create a ‘wall’ and to give the valley soil. A deal was made with the Listeners (possibly by the humans, possibly by the shard or dawnsingers that helped set up Shinovar) that the Humans wouldn’t cross over the wall; that it would be illegal for them to walk on the bare rock or Roshar. Thus the humans (likely refugees?) were able to settle an enclave of Roshar in peace. Generations pass, and reasons may have been forgotten (or simply prohibitions and restrictions ignored). It’s possible too that new humans came to the valley of truth or any number of things. But what happened was that someone climbed the wall, and broke the treaty. After that, or as part of that, more humans came over the wall from Shinovar and began to colonize Roshar. Were they adventurers and colonists? Were they refugees fleeing ethnic discrimination by the Shin? Were they ‘truthless’, banished from the valley? Or did they just want new lands to settle? Either way, significant populations of humans crossed the mountains and began to spread throughout Roshar, stealing the fire from the gods and opening Pandora’s box, all at once. This began the millennia long struggle between Humans and Listeners (although it may have had long stretches of peace, commingling and cooperation - see the herdazians and horneaters). Likely, it is the human/listener tensions that Odium was attracted to/fanned into the flames of war and hatred, leading to the cycle of desolations where Odium would infiltrate both sides and seed them with voidbringers. Eventually, the Listeners being more naturally susceptible to Spren bonds and having more righteous anger against the humans were suborned en masse by Odium. (Alethi and Iriali are both ethnically interesting with their hair - likely they arrived on Roshar later). Tl;dr - Stone shamanism is a memory of early humanities treaties with the Listeners, and The Girl Who Looked Up is about those treaties starting to fall apart/early human forays from the valley of Truth.

So I've been doing some worldbuilding for my Soulsmiths and one person I've bounced my ideas off asked why no mage ever has gone and straight up took power? They're pretty powerful since the discovery of Soulsmithing and that have been around at least since Middle Ages. Once there were two brilliant Soulsmiths at war who reverse-engineered vampires and werewolves, respectively. So there has been some war but I imagine it to be rather secret war. Maybe a few cities has been killed off and written off as "plague". How to make it fit with the premise that mages did not took over countries? Those two could do that if they were not fighting each other. So far I've only patched it up with assigning the task of enforcing the Masquerade to the secret organization of assassins but that feels... well, patched up. Why no mage ever just went and showed off his magic and took the power and ruled ever after? If the answer is "other mages stopped him" then the question changes to "why no group of mages ever took the power". I'm not sure about some Magic Council enforcing that; either they're already ruling the world or the question "why no one has gone rogue" arises. And so on, and so on. Alternatively: how about "nobody knows how things went back then" and just drop the whole issue altogether?

So I noticed that a lot of older members have at some point, changed their names to Ookla the (adjective). I am a sort of newer member of the Shard, despite having over 1200 posts, but could I have a explanation? Just curious.

This got started in You Know You're a Sanderfan When... Part 2. The idea is to decide which power set historical figures from the real world would have if they were dropped into the Cosmere (preferably into roles similar to those they had in their actual lives). I think it should stay limited to the Cosmere, because if we add Epic abilities and Smedry talents, people could basically just make up custom power sets for their favorite figures. We started with Roshar and the Radiant orders, but all Cosmere settings and magics are open. It also started with American Civil War figures, and I'm not sure if it should be opened to all time periods at once. It would be a little hard to follow random jumps from the U.S. Civil War to the Roman Empire to World War II to the Shang Dynasty. I'm thinking theme weeks, Sunday through Saturday, each week following a certain time period. For example, this first week the thread will stick to the American Civil War, then the first person to post after noon on Sunday, May 24, 2015 will pick the time period to use until Sunday, May 31, after which the first poster picks the period until June 7, and so on until the thread dies. I'm not sure about this system, so if anyone has a better idea I'd like to hear it (preferably within the first few days). So here's what we've got so far: Kairos (sorry quote didn't work right): I think Stonewall Jackson has a better claim to the Stoneward. Come to think of it, that seems eerily close. Maybe he was secretly a Radiant, and it was his squires who accidentally shot him.

I meant to bring this up like a few months back, but then forgot...anyway, let's talk music! (And speculation brought to you because a tumblr fan asked questions; also because she's made of awesome.) Source So, I'm a little grumpy about this. I know that jazz (and big band) popping up is awesome, but I'm not interested in the...awesome factor. I'm more interested in the "how", I'm somewhat familiar with the development of jazz (or big band) "proper" in the U.S. and (later Europe; Louis Mitchell and the Jazz Kings went to France and took Paris by storm) specifically in the 1910's and '20's. It's interesting, but deeply linked to African and African American history, the history of the African American church, African American music (and African music), the presence of New Orleans, and the history of slavery in the US; all of which were factors in its development (note that this list is not in depth, nor does it touch on everything). The thing is, jazz didn't just pop up because it's cool, it developed because of a number of historical and cultural factors that were unique to the history of African Americans and US history in general. What I'm getting at, I guess, is how could/did jazz develop on Scadrial? It doesn't have these factors, the closest thing it has is the skaa and skaa plantations, but unless they have a musical tradition similar to African American work songs and spirituals ("slave songs") we weren't made aware of in the books which is possible, I guess... Did the Steel Ministry influence or did the religious influence come later through the Church of the Survivor? And also, the plantations seem...harsher and even worse than those in the American South; to me, it didn't seem like a place where talking (much less singing, chanting, and music) was even allow (at least while working), but since we didn't see that much of the plantations in the books, it's possible, I guess... My point is, I'm not sure how jazz (as we know it) realistically development on Scadrial. I know, "rule of cool" and all, but the presence of big bands and jazz in these books makes me wonder where it came from and its history in Scadrial. I know this is pretty much nitpicking, and I don't expect a full historical explanation, but I would like to know its actual origin. Basically: how and why did Scadrial develop jazz (also, consider that Elendel and its surrounding territories are like France/Germany/the United Kingdom x the western US)? What are it's origins? Is it related to the history of the skaa, skaa plantations, and the Church of the Survivor and the link that those things might have with music? (It would also explain the slower development, because the religious aspects may have come later, I think). Is it (also) related to cultural developments in the "slums" of Elendel? What factors led to a jazz-like (or big band) music to develop and why? (Also, I agree that I might be being a bit too nitpicky about this topic, but I've always found the historical and cultural developments almost as interesting as the magic systems. I'm a dork! Also, written when I had caught a nasty cold, so if anything's seems off, that might be why...-.-)

Here seems to be a rough order of noteworthy events starting from Urithiru: Urithiru is built 4500 years ago: Aharietiam, Last Desolation. End of Heraldic Epochs Start of Silver Kingdom Epoch? Urithiru is abandoned The Recreance 1173-4 years ago: start of modern calendar 500 years ago: start of Hierocracy 300 years ago: War of Loss, end of Hierocracy, Sunmaker unites Alethkar However, it's really hard to date the Recreance or what occurred at the start of the modern calendar. I've been doing some quote mining: I've looked around but not been able to find any WoB that help. It's frustrating but we don't have too many comments from expert historians or with dates. Obviously, they don't have carbon dating or the like so it's really hard for people to verify dates - with all the chaos that has occurred, how sure can anyone be of dates of events from long ago? I guess this is why a lot of characters talk about "centuries" rather than millennia. It's also frustrating that it's not entirely clear what the "Silver Kingdoms Epoch" refers to - I suspect its the prosperous period between the Last Desolation and the Recreance, but it's hard to be certain. I suspect that prior to the Recreance that many scholars were in fact Radiants. Maybe they clung to Dawnchant (or derived versions) while the main population was coming up with new languages. After the Recreance there was probably a general desire to separate from the taint of the Radiants, including culture and language. This is probably what lead to the Dawnchant falling out of use and eventually being forgotten. There's no direct references I can see to what was significant about year 0 on the calendar people use - ie what happened 1173-4 years ago. Normally, such events are chosen as something positive but boring. Given Vorin cultural dominance I think it would be something like "founding of the modern era" (as agreed to by the five Vorin kingdoms). Or it could be "founding of Alethkar". I think it would have to be something like this... or some major event none of the characters have referred to ever (which would be weird). It could even be a direct reference to the Recreance though. If that's the case then it's most likely that the Recreance was relatively close. Maybe 1200-1500 years ago, depending on exactly how much chaos/destruction occurred during the Recreance. I think this because the modern Vorin kingdoms only started after the Recreance, because the womens script only started after the Recreance and it's implied that the Hierocracy followed on from the Recreance (which wouldn't make much sense if there was a gap of 4000 years or something). Basically, they seem to be events that are naturally close together. So, maybe after the Recrenace we get something like this: firstly there's general chaos, then various things like the protoscript and male/female role divide occurring. The 5 Vorin kingdoms re-form with slightly new names and the language has moved on. I'm guessing the other kingdoms turned their back on Vorinism after the Recreance. The thing connecting the 5 Vorin kingdoms was religion and the Church becomes increasingly strong over time, eventually leading to the Hierocracy. So anyway, that's my best guess for now - I think the Recreance could be 1200-1500 years ago. It seems to be the last major event before we start getting modern dates. I used to think that the Recreance was actually closer to the Last Desolation but now I'm wondering otherwise. Szeth words seem to imply otherwise and given that the Shin seem to have stayed more or less the same since the Last Desolation maybe they would have more accurate dates? I guess we'll see.

I have a theory and while I think it might be a little obvious I don't think it's been brought up directly on the forums. Here's the gist. The Vorin church over the past 4500 year has been run and structured for the main purpose of confusing and corrupting knowledge of the Knights Radiant, the Desolations, and the Voidbringers. I also believe that this was due to the influence of Odium as any long term effort to hurt the people of Rhosar's chances to survive the final desolation could potentially be accredited to the Odious one. Furthermore their takeover of the Silver Kingdoms during the Hierocracy preceding the intervention of the SunKing was not folly, but their masterstroke. They were able to destroy practically all books or resources containing any knowledge of the past (except the library of Karbranth of course). Lets take a look at what we know about the church and how it's very structure prohibits the spread of knowledge. Devotaries are the main way by which pious Vorin's show their faith. A Devotary has each devotee devote themselves to ONE noble aspect of the church. The male arts are brute and mostly involve fighting, since the church teaches that the greatest calling a man can fulfill is to be the greatest of warriors and to ascend to the Tranquiline Halls and reclaim them for man. This Devotion caused men to hold no interest in scholarship, lighteyed males had better rule a town/halmet/city/territory get to war or become and ardent, that is what is proper. They have no desire to read or gain knowledge of the past, reading is a shameful activity for a man, better to have a proper lady read to you. Even the amount of reading that Dalinar has pursued caused court gossip, thoough the fact that the book is the Way of Kings doesn't help. The female Devotary arts are mostly art (painting, music, poetry, embroidery) and scholarly pursuits, but a real lady should try to stick to the flowery ones since the most prominent scholars tend to become Heretics like Jasnah Kholin (I'm just riffing here some of this isn't explicitly said but are either implied or are the feelings I get from reading) {Also I don't agree with the sexist nature of this I'm just talking like an Alethi here). What they've done is separate those with Power (Men, Warlords, High Princes) from those with knowledge (Women, Scholars, Artists ) . Now I know a good light eyes couple will always be paired up, but even in this context the females are hiding knowledge in simple messages and texts with footnotes that men don't know about. And what men can read? Ardents can! And through this power they can have a greater influence on history. **Spoiler Spoiler ** The distinction between Vorinism and Old Vorinism is the reverence of the KR and the Heralds. They were venerated once and now are thought of as betrayers. Now the Recreance sure didn't help this, but a huge shift in trends like this needs some kind of push to get things going. Then it needs a stealthy hand to guide it on the right track. This is how Over the years, possibly without the entire churches overt knowledge, they could quietly secret away bits of lore and knowledge until we get to the current model of understanding about the past (not much that's accurate). Now if it is a smaller subset of the church driving this, it could be that during the Sunmaker's destruction of the Heirocracy, this piece of the church would need to completely break off to survive. They wouldn't disappear however they'd become ... The Ghostbloods. Do they have a secret library of old world knowledge? Is it the library of Karbranth? Tune in for WOR and hope we find out! I'm kind of running out of steam now so I'll come back later with some references and the like. But I think this is an interesting topic of pursuit and I hope it sparks some conversation.

Since Breeze is a nobleman, why would he decide to rebel and fight against them? Any ideas?