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  1. I suspect that when Radiants who have reached a certain degree of progress in the Nahel bond die, they go to Braize. Several points of evidence have led me to to suspect this: The Nahel bond was not designed by Honor, but was an attempt by the spren to imitate what Honor had given to the Heralds. In WoR chapter 87, Syl clarifies to Kaladin that the Nahel bond was specifically based on the Honorblades. The Prelude to the Stormlight Archive tells us that one of the conditions of the Oathpact is that the Heralds would return to Braize to be tortured if they died, and were expected to return willingly if they did not die during a Desolation. To abandon the Oathpact, they had to leave their Honorblades behind, willingly and intentionally giving them up. They did so by slamming the Blades into the stone ground. This suggests that the Honorblades was the basis of their connection to the Oathpact, and thereby to Braize. The coded passage from the Diagram found in the WoR Chapter 84 epigraph references "the secret that broke the Knights Radiant". Apparently there is such a secret, and obviously it would need to be a very significant one. When Dalinar observes the Recreance in his vision (WoK Chapter 52), he sees the Radiants slam their Blades into the stone ground, as the Heralds did, and as Dalinar does when he relinquishes Oathbringer to Sadeas. This is clearly how the Bond is broken, though why they needed to leave the Plate behind as well is unclear, mostly because we know so little about what Shardplate actually is and whether it has any connection at all to the Heralds (whom so far have never been shown wearing Plate of any kind). Nale believes, following Ishar, that when the proto-Radiants "naturally discover the greater power of the Oaths"..."without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds." (Edgedancer, Chapter 9) This suggests that the Radiants are connected in some way we do not yet understand to Braize, and could potentially (though by no means certainly) bring a Desolation the same way the Heralds do. Whether Ishar is correct in this belief or not is not yet known to us. To bring these points together, the Nahel bond is based on the Honorblades, and severed by the same means that the Heralds severed their ties to the Oathpact. Is it possible, then, that by copying the Honorblades, the Nahel spren inadvertently recreated the not-so-desirable aspect of the Honorblades that connects the Heralds to Braize? If so, it is possible that when Radiants die, their soul(?)/Cognitive shadow/non-material aspect goes to Braize, as the Heralds do, instead of going through the usual afterlife? This would be an extremely serious side-effect for the Nahel bond to have, and it's hard to imagine anyone, least of all the Radiants who were all broken people in some way, stoically accepting more-or-less-eternal torment after their death. As others have theorized, we already have reason to believe that the afterlife is messed up in some way on Roshar, but if the Radiants suddenly found out that they were more or less guaranteed to go to Damnation, that would go a long way toward explaining the Recreance.
  2. From the album: A Smidgen of Stormlight

    Also made in 3DS Max. I also used the plugin RayFire for the cracks.
  3. Hi there! I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this has been asked and answered already, but do we know anything about how the Heralds were actually chosen?
  4. WOR Ch. 42 Epigraph: And how, exactly, was Ishi going to do that? According to Syl, Honorblade Surgebinding is less efficient than normal. Taln displays more-than-human reflexes/speed, but Stormlight boosts your physical capability too. The Heralds must have had some really impressive powers unrelated to Surgebinding... with just the Bondsmith Honorblade (and the Bondsmiths probably aren't a primary battle Order) and super-reflexes, Ishi would have had trouble beating a single "battle Order" KR, much less all of them.
  5. I get the whole "guiding" ideal. But wouldn't Jezrien be a better fit? Like Ishi and Jezrien switched?
  6. Some things we know: Honor was shattered a long time ago. Honor was shattered by Odium Odium is not in support of anybody being happy The Heralds in the prelude really do not want to go back to the place they go between desolations There is a quote in the prelude that mentions hooks and fire in damnation Honor likes the Heralds Some things I am extrapolating: There have probably been desolations before the shattering of Honor There have probably been desolations after the shattering of Honor Fire could be a natural phenomenon, but for there to be hooks in damnation makes it seem like an intentional torture planet Odium probably is happy about the Heralds suffering My theory There was probably some form of Damnation before Honor was shattered, but it wasn't that bad. Then, after Odium shattered Honor, Honor was no longer there to protect the Heralds, and Odium was free to make Damnation as terrible as it could possibly be. He can do whatever he wants to it because he owns Braize. Ideas?
  7. So I was reading through WoK again and I was struck by something I have never heard anyone discuss. So maybe it's nothing. Anyway, on Kaladin's first bridge run he is encouraged by a nameless bridgeman who, during the plateau assault, refers to Talenelat as "bearer of all agonies." The nameless bridge man dies shortly after, and Kaladin takes his padded vest and sandals. My question/thought is: how would anyone know to call the Herald of War by this title? Is it referring to his torture in Damnation, or just his role/function as a Herald? And if so, was it common knowledge that the Heralds returned to Damnation between Desolations? And if so, since the previous Desolation was the "last" one, why would anyone think that a Herald would return there? After all, aren't they all supposedly fighting to retake the Tranquiline Halls from the Voidbringers? I have a suspicion that this nameless bridgeman either knew something he shouldn't, or was someone special. If he was someone special, (like a HERALD!!!!) is he really dead? And if so, are there any unforeseen consequences due to his death? Or is this all just a meaningless tangent?
  8. There is no evidence for this obviously, but I think that Nale will die saving Lyft. It is just a feeling I have. I also think, but again no evidence for it, that the heralds, or knights radiant, did to Honor what the 16 did to Adolnasium. "1118251011127124915121010111410215117112101112171344831110715142541434109161491493412122541010125127101519101112341255115251215755111234101112915121061534 "
  9. So after listening to Eshonai's interludes, I want to throw an idea out for discussion: The voidbringers are the Unmade. They are counterparts of the Heralds. Honor originally chose the 10 Heralds and gave them 10 invested weapons, splinters, we call the Honorblades. Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating surgebinders (the Knights Radiant) via the Nahel Bond. Odium originally splintered himself into the Unmade and gave them power that we do not yet understand. It is likely that there are 9 Unmade, as Braize (where Odium is) is 9-centric in contrast to the 10-centric cultures of Roshar (where Honor was). Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating what mankind refers to as "voidbringers," but are really things like thunderclasts and the stormform Parshendi. After all, the Parshendi obtain powers by bonding with spren, transforming them into something different, similar yet not the same as how spren bond with the surgebinding Knights Radiant. So the original battle between Honor's Heralds and Odium's Unmade became more intense as spren added men (and Parshendi) to both sides of the conflict, though this seems like an unintended occurrence by both Honor and Odium. Desolations became worse and more frequent as the spren (and the inhabitants of Roshar) became more involved. Eshonai fears bringing their gods back by using the ancient powers, gods she refers to as the Unmade (WoR). The Parshendi are determined to bring back the ancient powers to combat humans, especially because they see the humans have their ancient powers of surgebinding again. They fear the reprocusions of the Unmades' return (possibly because they, the "last legion," abandoned the Unmade by refusing to fight in the distant past). They know they will lose control as the Unmade possess them (in a way) and use them against their will. It's like the presence of too much of Honor's investiture (i.e. the Heralds, surgebinding) triggers the release of Odium's investiture (i.e. the Unmade, the "ancient power spren" of the Parshendi). In the past, Honor was able to regulate how quickly men were able to rise through the oaths and take on more of his investiture, which perhaps slowed the return of Odium and his agents. It's possible that this is what Nale fears - that men will too quickly summon Honor's investiture, which would trigger another Desolation. Perhaps this is what triggered the Recreance, that men chose to abandon the investiture of Honor in hopes of preventing the scale from tipping enough to open the gateway for Odium's return. Questions Still Unanswered How would this conflict end? The Heralds and Unmade return to their place (whatever torture they endure between desolations)? How? Did Honor and Odium agree that if one side won, that the game board (Roshar) would be reset? What does it mean to win a desolation? Since only 1 Herald returned to torture, how did the other 9 Heralds manage to keep the balance of investiture steady? The 9 abandoned their Honorblades, so does this mean they lost their connection with Honor? Did all of the Unmade return to torture (or their parallel place) at the end of the last desolation? It seems that at least one is still active (or recently became active) in Alethkar (i.e. The Thrill) and another is influencing the Death Rattles. Is Braize 9-centric because 9 Heralds stayed on Roshar or was this an original condition of Honor and Odium's arraignment? Where does Cultivation fit into any of this? What are your thoughts?
  10. I am in the process of a pre-WoR re-read and had heard the rumors that Shallash is Baxil's mistress so when reading this time through, I kept an eye out in particular for any herald-spotting. I noticed that when Navani mentions Dalinar's wife's name, it comes out as Shshshsh. This could just be the sound of the wind as Dalinar thinks, or it could be somehow a hint that his wife was Shallash. Given the lifespan of the heralds, I assume they have become accomplished at faking their own deaths. If Baxil's mistress is Shallash and she is going around and destroying images of herself, then maybe there is some affinity between Heralds and the Nightwatcher and that is why knowledge of her was wiped from Dalinar's memory. This is a bit of a roundabout thought and likely goes beyond what the Nightwatcher is capable of, but maybe Shallash even went to the Nightwatcher and asked for her memory to be removed from Dalinar's mind - which lead to Renarin's blood weakness and Dalinar going west and asking for him to be cured (if that was indeed his boon). It would also lead Adolin and Renarin to have herald-blood, if that ends up having any significance. Just a thought that occurred while I was reading, curious to see if anyone thought the same or similar.
  11. What do we know about the origin's of the Heralds (pulled from the Coppermind)? They are servants of The Almighty (Honor) There are 10 of them in total, each with an Honorblade given by the Almighty They are not Slivers (having never held the power of an entire shard) If they die, they return to what we assume is Braize to be tortured If they don't die, they are supposed to return to the place of torture on their own In the last desolation, Taln died and returned to torture, but the other 9 remained on Roshar, but gave up their Honorblades I have some questions that I'm curious for feedback about. It's a running list and some of it just might not be known right now, but I believe in the power of the 17th Shard - you all help me gain so much insight into this amazing cosmere Brandon has created for us! Did the Heralds have to give up their Honorblades to stay on Roshar (instead of returning to torture)? Are the Heralds always the same spiritual being (but change bodies each time they return)? Why and how did the Shin come into possession of the Honorblades? Do the Honorblades normally go back to the place of torture with the Herald? Are Honorblades splinters of Honor? Do they have any sentience of their own?
  12. Hey all, its been awhile since I've lurked on these forums, but I had a thought about civilization pre-odium on Roshar. I think it obvious that the heralds came from a Roshar population that predates odium's arrival on the planet and thus too the desolations. Meaning the heralds likely have a slightly different genetic and spiritual make up from the current inhabitants of Roshar. What I'd like to see discussed is how the current populations differ from the heralds: are the heralds beings created solely from honor an cultivation, and immune to influences like the thrill? are the heralds immortal because of residual after effects of the oath pact. spren are shattered pieces of honor, that emulate the honorblades and make up a newer magic system on Roshar. Do the heralds know of older magic that came exclusively from cultivation and/or honor, and if so does this constitute the 'old magic' of the night watcher? I'd like to hear what you guys think about these topics, or if a similar thread exists I'd love links
  13. The time of the Return, the Desolation, is near at hand. We must prepare. You will have forgotten much, following the destruction of the times past. -Taln You all know the story. A desolation approaches, and the Heralds appear to prepare mankind for surviving it. I'm curious as to what they actually taught that helped to keep man alive before the KR were founded. They saw enough value to keep teaching it, and humanity managed to survive each time (somewhat) Name Title Teaching Attributes Order Jezrien Herald of Kings Leadership Protecting/Leading Windrunners Nalan Herald of Justice ??^ Just/Confident Skybreakers Chana ?? ?? Brave/Obedient Dustbringers Vedel Herald of Healing Train Surgeons Loving/Healing Edgedancers Paliah ?? ?? Learned/Giving Truthwatchers Shalash Herald of Beauty ?? Creativity/Honesty Lightweavers Battar ?? ?? Wisdom/Care Elsecallers Kalak ?? How to cast bronze* Resolute/builder Willshapers Talenel Herald of War Train Soldiers Dependable/Resourceful Stonewards Ishar Herald of Luck ??** Pious/Guiding Bondsmiths There are a fair number of blank spaces. The Heraldic Titles appear to fit with what they teach, but maybe not always. I also placed each Herald's respective attributes and KR Order for completeness, in case they can help make connections. Notes: ^ Nalan takes "extreme" care to adhere to the law, perhaps he trains people in enforcing law/discipline? * Taln wishes he had the time to teach them steel, so I assume Kalak knows of many materials ** Taln mentions that Ishar spoke of a way to keep information from being lost between Desolations Sources: Herald Chart Circumflex ^ Asterisks * Edits: First, I hereby apologize to phone users for the big table, I wanted to appear organized. Second, I finally made my first official topic! Third, any/all opinions or criticism are welcome.
  14. At Gavilars party, we think we see several Heralds. Darkness/Nalan seems to be there, and it is theorized that he is joined by Kalak. Baxils mistress, who is believed to be Shalash, is confirmed to have been at the palace, and is mentioned by Nalan during the party. Some believe that Jezrien is the drunk man who speaks to Szeth. So, why are all these guys there? Did they know that Gavilar would die? Did they just want to befriend powerful people (Nalan and Kalak speaks to Elhokar)? How come they all gathered there?
  15. So I was reading the part where Nalan gives Szeth Nightblood, and I was wondering, does each Herald have their own unique Order, like with Nalan his is the Skybreakers? If they do, can someone list all the Heralds and their corresponding Orders/Surges? I've figured out Nalan's is the Skybreakers and Taln's is the Stonewards, but that's about it. Can someone help? Thanks
  16. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  17. So I was Sharding the Shard when I read a topic concerning the Boons/Banes and realised that the immortality of the Heralds sounds like a Nightwatcher "gift". -They never die but, have to endure incredible pain. Another reason I have for suspecting this is the Knights Radiant. The spren fashioned themselves after the Honorblades and Heralds. They not only grant Surges but, also physical ability, as seen with Kaladin. However there is no mention of Knights having longer lifespans or going to Damnation every so often. This is why I think the ability isn't from Honor ,but from a different source (aka Nightwatcher).
  18. Honor’s exhortation to Dalinar to “Unite Them!” has many meanings. Unite the Knights, Unite Roshar’s peoples, etc. (Honor is the “binding” Shard.) The natural question is what will happen when that group IS “united”? I think the “them” to be united refers to the Heralds. The re-establishment of the KR will draw the Heralds to them. Why do I think the Heralds? Let’s look again at the WoK Chapter 9 Epigraph: “Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.” Though this refers to “Shardblades,” I think it really means Honorblades capable of consuming investiture. Herald unification enables them to combine all of their Surges and, perhaps together with the KR, re-form the “bonds that drive Roshar” (WoK Ars Arcanum). I envision the ten Heralds standing against the Voidbringers, Honorblades “alight,” sucking in vast amounts of investiture – and thereby stripping the Voidbringers of their Odiumspren. Violent Voidbringers will again become passive Parshendi, and the thunderclasts and Unmade will fall lifeless, their state before Odium invested in them. Unfortunately, the Honorblades consume ALL investiture. (See my theory of "investiture imbalance" as the cause of Desolations.) That means the Heralds’ souls and all spren, including the Radiantspren. Victory against Odium means the end of the spren. See ya, Syl! We barely knew ya…
  19. “[The Enemy] Will Not Remain Bound by This” My 200th post!!! Humor me and pretend it’s a good one! The post epigraph comes from the WoK Prelude. It’s Kalak’s response to Jezrien when hearing of the Heralds’ decision to stay on Roshar following the “Last Desolation” – Aharietam. This post addresses what I think the “enemy” (presumably Odium) did in response. Odium’s actions comport with my “investiture imbalance” theory of Desolations. Background My theory of Desolations has been controversial. I think Desolations arise from an imbalance of the investiture comprising Stormlight. I believe Stormlight is made from the investiture of each of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. The function of the Honorblades is to consume investiture and reconstitute it as Stormlight, ensuring Stormlight’s balance. That’s why the Honorblades are in the mountains east of Shinovar, to capture the Highstorms’ remaining investiture, recycle it, and keep Shinovar spren-free. One function of the Highstorms is to sweep this investiture towards the Honorblades. Evidence for the “investiture imbalance” theory comes from WoB and text: WoB: If the Heralds linger on Roshar after a Desolation, a new Desolation will commence. That’s because IMO the Heralds themselves are largely Honor’s investiture that disrupts the balance. Nale kills Surgebinders because surgebinding breaks down Stormlight into its constituent investitures. Surgebinding uses only Honor’s and/or Cultivation’s investiture, but not Odium’s. This break-down frees Odium’s unused investiture, creating an imbalance that can cause a Desolation. I believe the “Heralds” are actually the souls of the original Heralds encapsulated in each Honorblade and augmented by Honor’s investiture – spren now capable of bonding. This investiture may also give them their “special” abilities. When an investiture imbalance occurs, the Heralds’ souls/spren leave the Honorblades and attach themselves to the “Shamans.” [i think the Stone Shamans are that because Taln – the “Ancient of Stone” (the Diagram), the “Spren of Stone” (so-called by Nale, I believe) – was the Herald who “died.” IMO “Shamans” are the equivalent of squires to the Heralds.] The Heralds “return” to the Honorblades after a Desolation either because they’ve been killed in battle or because post-battle the Honorblades consumed the investiture within their bodies (killing them), along with other investiture. That’s how the Heralds maintain “immortality,” living most of eternity in the Honorblades. The Heralds’ “torture” was their Cognitive Realm reaction to the binding of Stormlight. Odium’s investiture rendered their souls as Cultivation’s regrew them. In the Cognitive Realm, the Heralds still thought themselves human, and cognitively experienced the Stormlight-binding process as “torture.” That’s all background, so you know my theory. I wanted to summarize it here to bring me to the point of this post. Theory After Aharietam, there are nine Heralds on Roshar. Each Herald consists of substantial Honor investiture. Yet investiture balance is necessary to fend off another immediate Desolation – something I believe the Heralds do not know. What did “the enemy” do in response? Odium kept the balance for 4,500 years, deliberately forestalling another Desolation until his scheme (the Everstorm) was ready for implementation. He did this by placing/leaving nine counterparts to the Heralds on Roshar – the mindful Unmade (as opposed to the mindless Unmade mentioned in the Diagram). (Please don’t raise the WoB that there are not equal numbers of Heralds and Unmade – I’m only saying nine of them stayed, however many there might be.) It’s possible that for most of the time since Aharietam, the Unmade did nothing, keeping their presence secret. We do know that the Thrill has been around at least since Dalinar and Sadeas were young men (perhaps 30-35 years ago?) and possibly much longer, so one of the Unmade had to be active by then. Many Forum posters believe the black sphere Gavilar gave Szeth was an Unmade. WoB tells us that there are a lot more spren now than before Honor’s death. Jasnah says they’ve sensed whatever changes are happening/coming – perhaps in reaction to the Unmade’s recent behavior. Those spren provided “cover” – matched the amount of investiture – for the 50,000 stormspren that Odium created to invade the listeners. There is less investiture in stormspren than in Radiantspren, explaining the numbers differential despite equal amounts of aggregate investiture: Stormspren are sentient only, not sapient like Radiantspren, and hold less investiture. They have greater impact per unit of investiture than Radiantspren do because of the aggressive nature of Odium’s investiture. (Look at Eshonai’s change for an example of that aggression.) IMO stormspren are windspren that Odium has hijacked. He only needs to find a “hole” in them to inject them with his investiture. Thus, stormspren are mostly Cultivation’s investiture with only a bit of the aggressive Odium investiture in them. At some point the Honorblades became “aware” of the imbalance caused by Odium’s investiture. That’s when Taln emerged thinking the Desolation was about to begin – when in fact the last one in many ways never ended.
  20. I was thinking on the Oathpact and the Recreance for a while and I came up with this speculation: I don't know if what follows was already pointed out but I would like to read what do you think about it (though it's very far-fetched in some points and has few gaps). --- On the Oathpact, I think we can assume it's a pact between Honor and the Heralds. Tanavast gave them Honorblades and (maybe) immortality while the Heralds had at least two duties: 1) leading humans during Desolations; 2) keeping Odium at bay (trough suffering a lot of pain) between Desolations. I think duty #2 is "possible" according to the following quotes: - In the Prelude, Kalak says: - In Talenel Interlude, Taln thinks: - In the Second Letter it's said: So I think the Heralds talk of "torture" in a figurative sense: they suffer trying to hold Odium captive. When the Heralds can no more bear the pain, they return to Roshar (preparing humanity for the Desolation) while Odium regains his strength. Perhaps it's very arguable how the Heralds could keep a Shardholder captive (though suffering Hell) but maybe Honor lends each of them a fraction of his power while they are in Damnation. I don't know but let's pretend it's possible. After Aharietiam, the Oathpact is still valid and Odium is kept captive by Talenel. But, with only one Herald holding him, Odium had much more freedom than before. Now, I don’t know if in this condition Odium could flee from Damnation or if simply Taln withdrew from his duty but I think that, during the time of Recreance, Rayse freed himself and used this opportunity to kill Honor (maybe weakened from lending too much power to Talenel, in order to help him in keeping Odium at bay alone). After killing Tanavast, I believe Rayse had no much strength for fighting a Desolation but he tried anyway to further weaken mankind defense. He confronted the Radiants on the treachery of the Heralds and the possibility of fighting without their lead (likely meaning being destroyed by the Voidbringers). But Odium offered a treat: there would be no Desolation if the Knights Radiant gave up their positions. So the Radiants accepted and broke their oaths wile Rayse returned to Damnation, waiting for his opportunity (striking when men weren’t defended by Heralds or Radiants and Surgebinding was forgotten). I don’t exclude that (in this speculation) the death of Honor, that perhaps weakened the Nahel Bonds of the Radiants, had a part in their decision of stepping back. Now, in WoR it's said that only nine Orders out of the ten broke their oaths: I think that the latters are the Skybreakers: probably they are trying (from the Recreance until now) to kill other Surgebinders in order to keep the 'treat' with Odium and avoiding a new Desolation. The Order that didn't break his oaths could also have been that of the Bondsmiths: they (and their squires, because there were very few members) could have become Ardents and tried to unite Roshar in Vorinism trough the Hierocracy (against the threat of Odium). But I like the idea of the Skybreakers better. Thanks for reading until the end XD Sorry if my English was bad: it's not my native language.
  21. Hello everyone, I've been Reading Brandon Sanderson for quite some time now. I have also been aware of this forum for a similar amount of time and decided it was time to sign up and partake of the discussion. Glad to finally be here! So, a couple of musings as I make my way through WoR for about the 10th time - Could Honour have ''cheated'' in the deal he made with Odium - we know there are Spren of both shards, was the original gambit that the he who gets the listners/humans etc to attract the most Spren essentially win. However Honour ''cheated'' and gave humans the Honourblades thus tipping the favour of the War in Honours favour? Could Kaladin be being unknowingly prophetic when he says ''I can't hold back the might of 10 armies...'' potential climax of the first 5 books? Finally, Teft is awfully knowledgeable, is Brandon going to throw a slight curveball and Teft is a Herald? I wanted to write these down before I forgot. Apologies if this is in the wrong area!
  22. Possible spoilers for WoR below. Why are the Heralds present during Gavilars assassination? The Heralds I noticed are 1. Nalan the Azish man with the white birthmark on his cheek. Or was it a scar? 2. Another Herald (Kalak/Ishar) talking to Nalan. “I’m worried about Ash.” “You’re worried about everything.” Jasnah hesitated in the hallway. “She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.” “Shut up.” “I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” Here I think "Ash" = Shalash, "That creature" = Szeth, "my Lord" = Jezrien, "Blade" = Honor Blade 3. Shalash is/had been present there. She is confirmed to be Baxil's mistress. Szeth notices that Shalash's statue in the palace was conspicuously missing while the other nine heralds were represented. It had been destroyed by her. Szeth brushed by, continuing past a line of statues depicting the Ten Heralds from ancient Vorin theology. Jezerezeh, Ishi, Kelek, Talenelat. He counted off each one, and realized there were only nine here. One was conspicuously missing. Why had Shalash’s statue been removed? What is so interesting in a treaty between Alethi and Parshendi that warrants the attendance of 3 (atleast) Heralds? It seems too much of a coincidence whatever be the significance of the event. Did they attend knowing that the Parshendi were voidbringers and that this event will have some crucial part to play in the Desolation to come?
  23. “And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row.” - Bob Dylan, “Desolation Row” THIS POST IS INTERPRETATION AND SPECULATION. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. Desolations are the critical narrative element of SLA, even more than the Highstorms Brandon based on Jupiter’s Great Red Spot. What are they, what causes them, what is their purpose, how do they begin, how do they end? I made an earlier attempt to answer and will now try again. Brandon seems fascinated by the question he has Kaladin ask: “Can you kill to protect?” Vin says that’s humankind’s nature: “Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.” (HoA, Tor Softcover, p. 711.) This theme informs my interpretation of Desolations. Because Desolations are so central, a proper exposition requires background and context. I’ve written a number of posts to provide this context, some of which are controversial. To summarize before proceeding: “The Origin of the Cosmere” presents my view that all Cosmere magic begins in the Cognitive Realm with a cognitive command of some sort. I later described unconscious healing as an example of the general rule. “The Shattering” asserts that Adonalsium was Shattered vertically, along the fault lines of each mandate (intent), rather than horizontally across the spectrum of powers. IOW, each Shard has the same powers; the only difference from Shard to Shard lying in the powers’ expression through each mandate. I identify each known “Mandate.” Honor is “Relationships.” Cultivation is “Survival.” Odium is “Aggression.” I’m not wedded to any of these words, although I’m comfortable with the latter two. I do think “Relationships” fits Honor both conceptually and in how I think Honor expresses his power, but the word itself stinks. I’m open to suggestions on that one… I describe the nature of spren and why Radiant spren enter the Physical Realm with sentience only and not sapience until they bond. I assert that Honor made the souls of the Heralds into “identity spren” implanted in the Honorblades. That post also claims the Honorblades are “Voidbinding fabrials” that cause the Heralds’ “torture.” Later I conclude that the Heralds’ souls/identity spren must bond with the Stone Shamans when they emerge in advance of a Desolation. I argue that the Nightwatcher is a cognitive prison for Odium, part of how he is entrapped on Roshar. I also argue that Stormlight consists of the investiture of all three Shards forged by the Honorblades, another part of his prison. And I argue that in Shadesmar thoughts can kill. I believe a Shard’s best and easiest tactic to kill another Shard is to destroy its mind, its ability to direct its power. I believe that’s what Odium did when he splintered Dominion, Devotion and Honor. I am still developing this argument. Below is a summary of my theory of Desolations, without textual citation. Originally this summary was the introduction of a longer essay. Unfortunately (fortunately?), I’ve now grown too weary to write it. But I didn’t want to deprive you folks of your regular target practice. So here it is, in bare form, weaving together the ideas generated in the above-cited posts. What Desolations are the wars between Honor/Cultivation surrogates and Odium surrogates. Voidbringers include anyone under Odium’s influence. That means listeners, thunderclasts, humans and others. I speculate Odium spren resurrect dead greatshells as thunderclasts and dead – and disturbed – listener remains as the “mindless” Unmade (so described by the Diagram). I’ve stated throughout my posts that Odium’s investiture doesn’t bond. How then does Odium exercise influence? WoB states Odium has found a “hole” to “pour” his investiture into (like Hamlet’s uncle poured poison into King Hamlet’s ear). This is different from actually bonding with the host. My analogy to explain the difference is this: place an electrode into an insect’s body. You can control the insect’s behavior through the electrode. But the electrode is never PART of the insect’s body. If you destroy the electrode, the insect is still an insect. But imagine instead you spliced genes into to the insect’s body, so the insect no longer is an insect. It is now whatever that combination causes this new entity to be – a Knight Radiant, perhaps. (Or a Greatshell or Ryshadium?) That’s the difference between “carrying” investiture and bonding with investiture. Odium can only cause the former. Why Desolations impair Odium’s capacity to free himself from Greater Roshar. Humans are more susceptible to Odium’s influence than native Rosharans and better serve Odium’s purposes. Honor and Cultivation periodically need to “prune” their numbers (and also destroy other Voidbringers). Who Odium began the cycle. He created war on other planets to drive humans to Roshar. (WoB confirms that “the races are more distinct [on Roshar] and rub each other the wrong way…”) Once there, they committed genocide against listeners, wreaking “Desolation” upon them. In order to fight Odium (and incidentally to protect the listeners), Honor offered the Oathpact to the Heralds: fight for Honor against Voidbringers, who then mostly included Odium-influenced humans. Otherwise, Honor would annihilate ALL of Roshar’s humans if necessary to defeat Odium. At some point, Odium figured out how to influence listeners, and the Desolations lost their racial character. During the Vorin period, the original nature of Desolations was ignored, forgotten or deliberately reversed. How Roshar’s Physical Realm gaseous investiture – Stormlight – consists of equal amounts of each Shard’s investiture. Desolations begin when an “investiture imbalance” develops in Stormlight. Spren count as investiture. Honor made each Herald’s soul into an “identity spren” residing in an Honorblade. The Honorblades both monitor and consume investiture. When the imbalance develops, the spren emerges and bonds with a Stone Shaman, current keepers of the Blades. That Shaman-now-Herald signals the Desolation. When the Desolation ends, the Honorblade consumes the Herald’s identity spren, returning it to the Blade. Otherwise, the presence of the identity spren itself causes an investiture imbalance that would lead to a new Desolation, as Brandon has said. Desolations end when the Honorblades sweep Roshar clean of unbonded investiture, including spren. I speculate that the Stone Shamans are the “current” Honorblade keepers because they are somehow related to Talenal, the one Herald who remained “true” (because he “died”). I don’t know whether Heralds had squires or whether some KR from each order attended to their patron Herald. But the Stone Shamans represent Talenal, whom Taravangian describes as the “Ancient of Stone” and whom Nale describes (IMO) as the “Spren of Stone.” IMO if other Heralds had “died,” there would be additional Keepers of the Blades. Next Unlike Desolations, the Everstorm IS of Odium’s design. It brings on the True Desolation (the destruction of most of Roshar) and the Night of Sorrows, when the Everstorm reaches Urithiru, blocking both daylight and Stormlight. That’s the basics. Before you take aim, please make sure you’re wearing your orange vests… AND HAPPY LABOR DAY WEEKEND!
  24. The desolations start when the heralds break under torture. What exactly does that mean? Personally, I think it means they lose their honour. They're the champions of Honour, and the Enemies of Odium. They 'break' when they feel hatred for their tormentors. They're meant to be an ideal that Humanity strives toward. So when Odium makes them feel hatred, he's allowed to attack Humanity.
  25. Jezrien. This might sound crazy and I don't think there's enough evidence to conclusive prove it yet (and WoB suggests not) but here goes: So WoB has hinted that Taln isn't Taln (though that could be a red herring) so I got to thinking to who it could be... We know that the current heralds are going crazy along the lines of their previous character so Nalan is taking justice to extremes and Shalash is breaking all her own statues. So how would the epitome of Honour break when he's broken the most important oath he ever swore? Answer: By trying to get back what he lost and taking on the role of the person he most betrayed. Taln who the other heralds abandoned to hell-equivalent. I think however it goes beyond Jezrien pretending to be Taln and into the fact that he believes he is now Taln. This puts a new slant on the 'Am I too late? in his PoV sections. From Taln-perspective, is he too late to stop the desolations? From Jezrien's perspective, I think it ties in thematically with Kaladin's plotline, is he too late to regain the honour he's lost by breaking the oath? This might also explain why the blade Dalinar bonded is not an honour blade as we know Jezrien doesn't have his honour blade... which I think will tie in with the narrative because: where is Jezrien's honour blade? Well, Kaladin got it back off Szeth so it's currently in Urithiru which is where Amaran is taking Jezrien. Herald and Honour-blade reunion? WoB says there isn't enough evidence yet for what happened to the herald-blade which leads me to think if my theory is correct, there isn't enough evidence that Jezrien is Taln. Other evidence is that the conversation between Nalan and someone in the Jasnah PoV prologue mentions Jezrien being a drooling mess. Obviously this occurs well before the epilogue to WoK where Taln/Jezrien arrives but I think Taln/Jezrien is definitely someone who could be described as a mess, perhaps a mess who is just starting to recover a semblance of sanity through pretence. Also when Taln catches the blade before it kills Amaran, did he really catch it or could he have used a binding to pull it to himself? I'm not sure what 'powers' Heralds have, whether it's the same as their orders or something more. Other possible evidence that I only discovered from checking the coppermind, this quote: “[The Makabaki] worship Jezrien, though they don’t accept him as a figure from the Vorin religion. They name him the only god.” —Teft about the Makabaki[1] I'm pretty sure that the current Taln was described as looking like a Makabaki so it makes sense that their God looks like them! I can't think of a good explanation yet so why Hoid tells Taln/Jezrien he's late... other than it possibly tying into the conversation about being the second person to <x> so Jezrien is the second person to 'be Taln' as it were or why the shardblade that Taln/Jezrien found somewhere didn't disappear when he was unconscious but still. So, complete madness or possibility?
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