Search the Community

I'm probably deeply misguided for thinking this. But hear me out. This has been bugging me for YEARS. Since the first time I read and completed the mistborn trilogy as a teenager. And it seems like no one’s addressed it. At least not comprehensively. So I will attempt to now. I humbly ask that you read the whole thing through before commenting. So you can see the full picture I’m trying to paint. Then judge my argument on its full merit. I am very open to the (probable) reality that I am very wrong. Still, it can't hurt to rant a bit ya? Brandon Sanderson (A living printer & absolute gigachad of an author) has either made the biggest accidental blunder regarding one of the most important magic systems in the Cosmere. Or has been setting up one of the biggest plot twists in the Cosmere’s history. And this is why; Allomancy, which Brandon categorised as ‘Preservation’s power’ in era one. Is NOT actually Preservation’s power, but rather Harmony’s. And I will be attempting to convince you that that is the case. Argument: Allomancy, functionally, has nothing to do with preservation, but in contrast, ferruchemy absolutely does. Ferruchemy’s whole shtick is that it allows its user to preserve attributes within metals for a practically indefinite amount of time for use later on. While allomancy on the other hand, not only doesn’t give one the power to preserve anything. But instead REQUIRES that one destroys metals by burning them in order to gain investiture and abilities. Yes, you get more out than you put in. But the same could be said about splitting an atom in a nuclear fission reaction. You destroy something in order to gain the power to do something. Ruin’s influence within this magic system is quite obvious. And yet we can’t say that it is purely his power, because even though mistborn are walking killing machines. Their power can be used to create and preserve just as well. (Ferruchemy being Preservation’s power also acts as a perfect contrast to hemallurgy. The two are exact mirrors of each other, just as the shards are.) Ferruchemy preserves. Pure and simple. Hemallurgy kills, steals, twists, and decays. Allomancy on the other hand just doesn’t quite fit either shard completely. It’s the odd one out. It always has been. Allomancy is an end-positive power precisely because it is not Preservation, or Ruins’ power singularly. And we can deduce this by looking at the natures of the two shards themselves. On their own, neither shard is capable of creating. Only preserving or destroying. Neither one is capable of producing an end-positive system. It was only when the two shards came together, agreeing to work in harmony. That they had the power to create an entire planet, biosphere, and human race entirely from scratch. Harmony did that. Not Preservation. Not Ruin. But the harmonious efforts of the two shards. And later on at the end of era one. It was only through the unification of the shards into Harmony that all the mistakes and errors made by either shard could be mended, and the world restored to its original state. The entire story is about Harmony. Harmony created the world. But once the world was created, and the agreement between the two shards fulfilled, discord followed. The two shards warred, each motivated by opposing intents. Leading to the gradual destruction of their world. And in the end, it was only the rebirth and re-establishment of Harmony that put it all back together. This thematic truth can also be observed within the characters themselves. One could argue that Vin’s entire story was about finding harmony within herself. Learning to accept the fact that she can’t cling to everything and everyone hoping that they don’t change. That they don’t leave her alone(Preservation.) While simultaneously accepting the darker parts of herself. Her capacity for violence is foremost among them(Ruin.) And through the marriage of these two sides of her, the part that seeks to protect, and the part that causes destruction. She finds harmony within herself. Learning to use that destructive force for the sake of preservation. The ruin within her yields to the preservation within her. And it is that resultant internal harmony that not only makes her so potent a mistborn, but gives her the strength to sacrifice herself to destroy Ati once and for all. Mistborn are children of Harmony. And this truth can also be seen by simply thinking about what separates them from all other allomancers. As well as what separates the normal mistborn from the great ones. Their ability to use all of their abilities in conjunction with each other to accomplish incredible acts. Vin’s creativity, her willingness to experiment, to see how two metals no matter how unrelated their powers may first seem, could work in unison with each other to produce unexpected and fantastic results. That is what made her a force of nature. Vin is the greatest mistborn we’ve ever seen precisely because she, more than any other character, mastered the art of using ALL her abilities in harmony. Viewing them as complementary pieces within a greater harmonious whole, rather than entirely distinct and separate elements. The way others, such as mistings, typically would. Counter: Platitudes! That’s all a stretch. We know that allomancy is preservation’s power because it comes from consuming beads of lerasium! Rebuttal: Does it though? This wouldn’t be the first time that the characters in the story said one thing about the nature of a metal, only for Brandon to come out later stating the opposite. I.e Atium’s true nature in era 1. So the same thing could be said about ‘Lerasium.’ I think that what we’ve been led to believe is ‘Lerasium’ is actually ‘Harmonium.’ And the fact that the beads are only found around the well of ascension is evidence of this. Why? Because the well of ascension is the location of the final clash between Ruin and Preservation. It is where Preservation died, sacrificing himself to trap ruin. I believe that when the two shards clashed here, the two clashing investitures produced beads of Harmonium as a side effect, scattering them around the well. And that it is the consumption of Harmonium that actually makes one a mistborn, not Lerasium. Counter: But in Era 2 we see what ‘Harmonium’ is actually like. It doesn’t make people mistborn. It stores allomantic charges and is extremely reactive and combustible. It can’t even be consumed! Rebuttal: Aha, exactly! Because what we see in era 2 isn’t actually ‘Harmonium.’ It’s DISCORDIUM! Somewhere in between the end of era one and the start of era two, something went wrong with either Sazed, his shard, or both. And this is what led to the shift in his shard’s capabilities and attributes in era 2. It is why he’s incapable of wielding the same degree of power he did at the end of era one. Because he’s not in harmony any more, he’s discordant. And that subtle shift has been reflected in his god-metal, twisting it from an inert metal, something that creates mistborn, to a hyper reactive metal capable of nuking cities if agitated enough. It also fits with the hero of ages prophecy. “They shall call him discord(not harmony!), and they will love him for it.” Counter: Okay then but if the beads that create mistborn are actually shards of ‘Harmonium’ created when Preservation and Ruin last battled at the well of ascension. Then what does true Lerasium actually do? Where do mistings come from? Why is it that Vin could burn Preservation’s mist to fuel her allomancy? Argument: Simple. Lerasium’s true property is that it creates ferruchemists. And in order to better support that, I need only ask. Why is it that only Sazed’s people have ferruchemy. What distinguishes them from other people on Scadrial? Simple, they are the only group of people that have been living around Preservation’s perpendicularity for centuries. They are the closest to preservation’s influence than any other group of people on the planet. I believe that either through continued exposure to high levels of preservation’s investiture over countless generations. Or the consumption of trace amounts of lerasium forming within the environment around the perpendicularity. Or even just being descended from the initial group of people who discovered the perpendicularity, who perhaps interacted with it and consumed the invesiture there somehow. And then passed on the power genetically. Mistings emerge naturally because all humans on scadrial have souls formed from both preservation and ruin. And I believe that a misting could snap from both the white or the black mist. Vin was able to use preservation’s mists to fuel her allomancy because 1) she aligned with the shard’s intent very strongly, hence why only she had the power to do this. And 2) She could absolutely have done the same thing with Ruin’s black mist if her personality aligned with his shard’s intent instead. Because allomancy arises from the union of both shards’ powers. Whichever one you can use to fuel it is entirely dependant on how strongly you align with the intent and not with the nature of your allomantic abilities. Counter: But in era 2 we see that when Wax splits ettmetal it produces atium and trace amounts of lerasium, which then go on to turn him and Wayne into mistborn! Rebuttal: No, we think that’s what happened, because that’s what the characters think happened. But the truth is, none of the characters actually know what true Lerasium is. Or what it’s supposed to behave like. Heck, they don’t even know what true Atium is like, because we’ve still never seen it! What we’re actually seeing here is the correction of an imbalance within the Ettmetal. The excess influence of ruin’s investiture in the metal is being removed, resulting in a metal that’s perfectly balanced between ruin and preservation. I.e, true ‘Harmonium.’ Ettmetal is actually ‘Discordium.’ It is innately imbalanced, carrying within it a bit more ruin than preservation, making it extremely volatile. But once split in this explosive reaction. The excess ruin investiture becomes malatium(not pure Atium, which we’ve never seen, because of whatever Leras did to ruin’s power in era 1), while the rest which is perfectly balanced with preservation’s investiture becomes true ‘Harmonium.’ And THAT is what turned Wax and Wayne into mistborn. If one wanted to produce actual Lerasium, they’d have to repeat the splitting procedure once more in order to fully split ruin’s investiture from Preservation’s. Producing pure Atium, and pure Lerasium. Whether or not that’s actually possible though is up for debate. Brandon seems to have eluded in past interviews that this should not be possible. The truth is that in era 1, Preservation did something spiritually to ruin’s power that made it so that it spawned into the world not as pure Atium, but rather as a twisted or dirty version/alloy. Malatium. Perhaps because he feared what true, pure Atium could do if people tried to burn it. And Somewhat similarly, there is a spiritual defect within Sazed and his shard that is reflected in his metal. Preventing it from manifesting as pure ‘Harmonium.’ But rather as a hyper reactive alloy, ‘Discordium.’ Which the characters refer to as Ettmetal. The truth is, we have never actually seen pure Atium, or Lerasium in ANY of the books. Only their alloys. I think that this may actually be intentional. And these intricate layers and webs of contradictions, and misconceptions will serve as the catalyst for the conflicts in the upcoming stories. And perfectly explain why Sazed has never been quite the same as the Sazed we saw at the end of Era one. Something insidious is going on. And he might not even be aware. It’s entirely possible that the main reason Sazed struggles to use his shard is because he mistakenly still thinks of the shard as Harmony, when in actuality it is Discord. The shard and the vessel are not in sync, and this is slowly destroying Sazed from within. Perhaps leading to the development of something… other. I personally think that this spiritual defect is a leftover consequence of the conflict between Ati and Leras in the past. We already know thanks to stormlight 4 that new shard holders inherit changes made to their shards by past holders. The shard’s investiture retains those spiritual bonds and quirks from the previous holder. My theory is that Sazed’s problems emerge from a confluence of 1) Whatever Leras did to Ruin’s power when he split it from him. 2) A weakening of preservation’s power, or rather output/influence/capacity, when he put more of himself within humanity than ruin did. 3) His own lack of awareness on the true nature of his shard’s nature and intent, gradually leading to him becoming an unfit vessel for the power, and thus incapable of using his powers as easily as he otherwise should. Setting up massive implications for future stories and conflicts. Conclusion: Perhaps I’m deeply misguided. Perhaps Brandon made a little mistake and I’ve been reading far to deeply into it for all these years. And in actuality none of this means anything. Perhaps Brandon is entirely unaware that this one little categorization choice he made ages ago could potentially yield all these implications. Or, maybe, just maybe. He did all this on purpose. Maybe Sazed was fated to walk the path of Discord from the start. Maybe we’ve all been duped for years and he’s been gradually working towards this grand reveal. If the latter is true my soul would quite literally ascend into the beyond. And I’ll feel like an absolute legend for having seen the whole thing coming from day one. But if not… Frankly speaking I’ll be so mad XD. Lots of love though Brandon! Thanks for the headache *End Note: The implications of all this kind of answers another question that's been bugging me as I’ve watched the grander narrative of the Cosmere slowly unfold. And that's the fact that Scadrians, without a singular doubt, seem like absolute A-holes in every story when viewed from an other-outworlder's POV. They seem exploitative, apathetic, and in many cases, they sow discord wherever they go. E.g. Sunlit Man, most interactions between ghostbloods and other-worlders, & the new secret project prologue. I noticed this because (in case you couldn’t tell by now) Scadrial and it’s people are the closest to my heart in the Cosmere. So their consistent douchebagery in other Cosmere stories has been very glaring to me. If my theory is true, and Sazed is actually Discord. And the traits of a shard can be seen reflected in the people of their world. This would all make perfect sense. Modern day Scadrians are children of Discord and that naturally makes them more prone to A-holery than most.*

There has been a lot of discussion and theorizing, surrounding why the ghostbloods want Ba-AdoMishram. I think there are several reasons- but there’s one possibility I haven’t seen, any discussion around- Could it be that Kelsier believes BAM could bestow metallurgic abilities to Scadrians? Kelsier is desperate to defend Scadrial- we saw this at the end of The Lost Metal- he tells Sazed that they need access to their most powerful resource, Mistborn and feruchemist- he asked Sazed: “is there a way to expand our access to metal born? They have the seed inside them don’t they, the heart of preservation?” BAM was able to connect directly to the singers and grant forms of power. To quote directly from RoW Chapter 114: “I’ve been speaking to Kelek, the Herald. He seems to think the reason you’re hunting him is because of an Unmade. Ba-AdoMishram? The one who Connected to the singers long ago, giving them forms of power? The one who, when trapped, stole the singers’ minds and made them into parshmen? “Why do you want the gemstone that holds Ba-Ado-Mishram, Mraize? What are you intending to do with it? What power do the Ghostbloods seek with a thing that can bind the minds of an entire people?” I don’t think it’s a leap to assume Kelsier could believe BAM could bestow metallurgic abilities. How the mechanics of that could work I have no idea, maybe it’s not possible- allowmantic abilities can be granted by lerasium, but we know it existed before the ascension of the lord ruler- perhaps that was merely a result of “having the seed of preservation inside of them”, instead of needing to draw directly from preservation’s body in the form of lerasium. The origins of feruchemy is entirely unknown- perhaps a result of scadrians being of both ruin and preservation. Could BAM bring this out of them, by connecting to Scadrians? BAM functioned as a lesser Odium before granting forms of power. The key difference is that this method of using investiture seems to be external, versus being born with it as on Scadrial- however, all forms of investiture originally are bestowed somehow (lerasium). Yes, BAM is of Odium not Harmony- but perhaps BAM could enhance those latent abilities, bring them to the surface. I’m not sure, all of this speculation- but given Kelsier’s overwhelming drive (protect Scadrial) and Shallans quote above, it seems like a strong motivating factor for wanting BAM.

Is it possible that one of Shallan's brothers betrayed her location to the Ghostbloods to buy them time/repay their debt? If they were capable of tracking Jasnah through something like a ship's manifest, why did it take them until the Wind's Pleasure to catch up to her?

welcome to the ghostbloods, wear our tattoo

Clearly Kelsier knows about Essence Marks and that they can grant powers that the individual was not born with. We also know that Moonlight has been experimenting with general use stamps. Is this one of the core reasons that Kelsier recruited Moonlight to see if Essence Marks could be a method of democratizing powers? If so, then there's a question on if Kelsier has commissioned a Mistborn Essence Mark and if so, why we haven't seen him use it? Has a Mistborn Essence Mark If Kelsier does have an Essence Mark that can change him into a Mistborn which seems like it should be more plausible than Moonlight becoming an Elantrian, then why he doesn't use it that much? Most likely answer I can think of is that it takes a shot of unkeyed Dor and that the transformation is either temporary or still has issues to work out. During the ramp to the climax of TLM, Kelsier implies that he's too far out to Steelpush to get back in time - and if he genuinely can't make it back in time, then it's not worth the expenditure of Dor. There's resource constraints that make Essence Marks impractical to offer as a solution for Scadrian democratization of power and may partially explain why he's trying so hard to get his own source of portable Investiture. If the transformation is temporary, then it also totally explains why he asks Harmony if he can ever be a Mistborn again while still implying that he can Steelpush. Doesn't have a Mistborn Essence Mark If this is the case then there's a few options I can think of: Something about Kelsier's nature as a Cognitive Shadow stapled via Hemalurgy on a Kandra (or so has been heavily implied and we assume) interferes with the Essence Mark and it doesn't take. Perhaps it can't overwrite his death and his time as a Shard that warped his Cognitive Shadow. This seems quite possible, even with a shot of Dor to brute-force it, though I'm guessing at the Realmatics. He hasn't told his crew that he isn't a Mistborn - though since a lot of them aren't native and would have to be told the significance, that seems weird. He hasn't been willing to divulge enough of his personal history to Moonlight for her to make a workable Essence Mark. This seems possible, but I'm not sure if it's enough of a deterrent for him to not have access to Mistborn, Feruchemist, or Fullborn abilities. It's a work in process and Moonlight has been recruited recently enough that she hasn't been able to carve one for him yet. Moonlight is unwilling to hand someone else that much power under whatever current agreement she has as a member of the Ghostbloods. Nonetheless, if we see Kelsier show up and start flying around with Steel and Duralumin, it doesn't necessarily mean that he cracked Lerasium. Thoughts?

Ok so this has been eating at me since my first time through the series. Now finishing up my 4th time through, and I feel like this needs to be addressed sometime soon in the story. Shallan has been lying to Jasnah, constantly, about a great many things even after Jasnah was clear with her that she would accept no more lies from her. Honestly if I'm Jasnah, and I find out Shallan was working with the Ghostbloods, I would want her out of the Tower, and I don't see any reasonable way around that. Shallan has proven she will lie and manipulate whoever she wants to do things "her" way because she things she's the only one who can address any of these problems. Her arrogance is just shocking to me. I absolutely do not see how Shallan is following the First Ideal, not even close. She sacrifices children and other beggers in her "brilliant" plan to infiltrate the Cult of Moments. Does she feel bad about it? Yeah, for about 5 minutes. Does she change her ways based on this realization? Of course not, she then goes on a trip to Lasting Integrity where she lies to every single person continuously, literally every living being she encounters she lies and manipulates for her scheme to help the Ghostbloods, which she has done plenty of already regardless of what lies she tells herself the organization isn't "rewarding" her for doing things they find useless. She's advancing the interests of people who tried to murder her and the person who has given her access to do Everything she has accomplished or gained. Jasnah is extremely intelligent and good and figuring out plots. It seems unlikely in my view that Shallan could continue to hide that she was working with the Ghostbloods from Jasnah, especially since Wit definitely knows she is, and Wit is in a relationship with Jasnah. When she does find out Shallan has been lying and manipulating her and everyone else to continue following the Ghostbloods orders (regardless of the ending of RoW) Jasnah should be furious, and should never trust her again.. She has proven she is not trustworthy, period. No rational person would look at the lies and manipulations Shallan has performed and say "well maybe they're an honest person now". I'll even grant that at the end of RoW maybe Shallan made some huge breakthrough. Maybe she will go straight to Jasnah and apologize and beg forgiveness. If I was Jasnah I would thank her for the apology then banish her immediately from Alethkar and the Tower and tell her she's unwelcome in her lands or those of Dalinar. If I was Navani and I found out Shallan was working with the people who tried (and very nearly did) murder my daughter, I would want her executed.

Hey everyone, after i finished reading the Lost Metall i was more curious than ever to get some new information about the ghostbloods. Although we got something about their motives, we didn't get much about how they were founded. So i am looking forward to (maybe) a Secret History 2... Or, let's say, a Secret History for every Era of Mistborn. To see what Kelsier is doing behind the curtains. One Question to get things a little bit more clear: The Timeline in the cosmere is still a little bit obscure. Does anybody know if Stormlight and Mistborn Era 2 are taking place at the same time? After reading The Lost Metall i have the feeling that this has to be right.

So Shai is Moonlight. I get that. Makes relative sense. I’m sure Shai was an easy person to recruit into the Ghostbloods. However, for being hundreds of years old, she sure does not seem to be the most powerful forger of her time. From what she has said, she has three soul stamps on her. Two of which are universal stamps, which I am certain is quite difficult to pull off. The third is an essence stamp that makes her an Elantrian, which is also surely difficult to pull off. However. Three soul stamps? Really? Shai is certainly better than that. Is it a limitation of resources? What Shai has made is certainly impressive, but probably something an average forger could pull off in 100 years of living. I think it’s safe to assume Shai’s been kicking for longer than that, and again, she is THE BEST forger of her lifetime. If this is the Shai we know, I would expect a whole briefcase of powerful soul stamps, including more than just one essence mark. I understand that she only has so much access to her abilities, since there’s only so much Dor that she has access to. However, even with limited resources, more options are always welcome. I find it slightly hard to believe that Shai wouldn’t have proper materials to make more, as the Ghostbloods are at this point quite far reaching and could certainly procure some. Especially since, as far as I’m aware, Shai is quite high up in their ranks. So what’s up? Why does Shai, the most powerful forger or her time, who has presumably been alive for hundreds of years, honing her skills, pals with Kelsier himself, have only three soul stamps?

When talking with harmony at the end of the book, Kelsier is revealed to be unable to use metallic arts as CS, and is desperately trying to regain his powers. But... In his conversation with the bilming ghostbloods through a seon, Kelsier says that he cannot move faster as he is over water, and thus his steelpushing is useless. So Either: Kelsier is lying to the ghostbloods, pretending to be a misting in order to command greater respect. Kelsier has a coinshot friend he piggy back rides like max, or kelsier can actually use A-Steel through as of yet unseen A-medallions. This would make sense as if he cant use medallions, why make the bands? (but this is somewhat contradicted by his one POV chapter, where he laments his inability to use A-Iron and A-steel, so the whole thing is rather confusing) In any case, the 1st is most likely, which adds a bit of edge to when marasi asks if the ghostbloods can rely on even him to never keep secrets.

I return from my slumber beneath the mountain to plague you all with unwanted and unwarranted speculation! (Spoilers up to and including Rhythm of War and the entire lesser Mistborn Trilogy). There's always another secret. The simplest explanation is, for the Cosmere, often unlikely to be the truth. Thus, speculation should tend to the far-fetched, if only for the sake of being interesting. I propose that The Ghostbloods are much more accurately described as a South Scadrian intelligence agency sent to destabilize other words than as a criminal organization seeking a non-metaphorical power monopoly. Furthermore, I propose that their aims are essentially Preservationist in nature, rather than Ruinous (though their methods may be ruinous). With its lamentable corruption into Harmony, the only true legacy of Preservation is Scadrial itself. With the loss of Ruin, the only genuine threat to Scadrial is other worlds, and as in many things, the greatest dangers to a world are discovery and innovation (Anyone who doubts this should consider what happened to the Dinosaurs when the comet hit, or what happened to the comet itself... when worlds collide, worlds collide, and one or both are destroyed. Contact is contamination, contamination is destruction, destruction is ruin). The next greatest danger to the worlds of the Cosmere is the shard Odium, currently quarantined in the Roshar system (to those who doubt that innovation is the greater threat, consider that it was the curious mortal Navani Kholin, rather than the shard Odium or one of its Fused, who discovered how to permanently kill spren. To those who doubt that discovery is the greater threat, consider what the discovery by humans of Roshar and how to get there meant for the native Parshendi, or what would happen if Odium were to discover a way to escape its prison). The Rosharan system represents an undeniable and existential danger to the rest of the Cosmere. Its vast and easily accessible sources of Investiture alone would make it the epicenter of cross-system contamination as Worldhoppers would inevitably seek to exploit it. Such power, for the sake of preserving all else that is, must be controlled, must be seized. Establishing a non-metaphorical power monopoly is the best way to prevent anyone else from uncontrolled, unauthorized, unsafe-in-the-long-run, irresponsible use of investiture. Controlling the Oathgates, Urithiru, and the Perpendicularities is the best way to keep Roshar as the quarantine it ought to be, rather than the crossroads it might become. Odium, regardless of its bearer, is likely to stay contained so long as no clever little monkey figures out the wrong trick... Yeah, so long as J. Kholin and N. Kholin breathe, it's only a matter of time before the "wrong trick" is figured out and Odium is set free. Those of Scadrial, of all people, know what happens when an evil shard is set free from its prison. To prevent more catastrophes such as what happened to Sel, any true follower of Preservation* would find themselves with the same objectives as the Ghostbloods. Add to this Thaidakar's rather hands-off style of leadership, and the tendencies of those-organizations-sent-by-authority-to-destabilize-other-places-in-order-to-serve-the-interests-of-the-homeland, and it stops being a mystery why monsters like Mraize get in positions of influence and power in the Ghostbloods. TLDR; The Ghostbloods aren't an Investiture Cartel, they're the South Scadrial CIA... which is honestly scarier, and probably worse. *as in Preservation, rather than Harmony

So he got it onto his pants. I would say that this makes it likely to be Amberite. But is this the only possibility? Which aether could he have on display? How do the ethers of the first generation actually look like and how are they propagated?

We learn in The Rhythm of War that Mraize approached Sja-anat (through Shallan) to send to him a corrupted/enlightened mistspren to bond. Fortunately, Tumi (the spren) chose Rlain instead and Mraize is probably not able to see the future yet (yay!). It would be rather terrifying if the Ghostbloods had access to oracular powers. What do you think happened between Tumi and Mraize? Did the spren consider him personally not worthy or did it turn out to be mechanically impossible for someone of his decent?

I was scrolling through this random thing: https://www.17thshard.com/news/features/inktober-21-spotlight-r775/ And the picture for Invested I don't get. I just... am confused. I haven't read Era 2, and I think I'm missing something... could someone explain it to me?

Ok, hear me out. We know that Kelsier became a Cognitive shadow after his death because of Preservation. At the end of Mistborn: Secret History we see Kelsier wants to get back to life. We also know that the Ghostbloods want power. According to Mraize, they want Stormlight because it is easily transportable Investiture, and they will get rich off of it. That seems weak to me, because even though it would make them insanely rich, they already seem to be rich and there seem to be better ways than that. This is where my theory comes in. They want the Investiture so that they can turn themselves into cognitive shadows. We know that having a lot of Investiture can extend the time between dying and going to the Beyond. Any thoughts?

I know this isn't possible, but I was rereading mistborn, and all I could think about was how what if Vin was trained by someone who didn't teach her how to trust? Someone who reinforced Reen's abuse? The first person who came to mind with that was Mraize and the Ghostbloods. So how do you guys think Vin would have turned out with that kind of environment?

1. The Set is too powerful. Perhaps that avatar makes it too difficult for Kel and his agents to get close to the main members of the set for some good old assassination. 2. They are unaware of the Set. Less likely in my opinion, because there is only one perpendicularity and my guess is the GBs keep a close watch on it. Also my guess would be that the GBs have a large hand in Scadriels current governments and behind the scenes actions. 3. The GB’s put in charge of Scadrial by Kelsier have turned coat and are now members of the Set. Kelsier either doesn’t know yet or hasn’t made his move yet. what other reasons can y’all think off?

This Theory is based on the fact that we know that Thaidakar in Kelsier, what we already know of the Ghostbloods intent and sorta the spiritweb. So the first point i would like to make is about what we already know of their intent as an organization. We already know that they want a convenient source of investiture. second, we know that Kelsier likes to help people. Third Wit made an interesting jab at Kel. He said something along the lines of take care of your planet before you meddle on others. Well what if that is what he is doing? What if the stormlight is meant to alter the spiritweb of a person enough to make them a full misborn or feruchemist. This can lead to other bigger implications but i won't get into those now. I would appreciate feedback positive and negative since it is my first theory.

Do we know how the timing lines up on Scadrial and Roshar? In TWOK Demoux is seen worldhopping on Roshar, meaning the non-flashback events we've seen on Roshar must occur after but within decades of the Final Ascension on Scadrial. In Mistborn Secret History, Kelsier only learns of worldhopping around the time of the Catacendre. He is widely theorized to be Thaidakar, but the Ghostbloods have presumably been operating for decades on Roshar. When did Kelsier establish the Ghostbloods? Also, Demoux followed Kelsier in life, later becoming one of the founders of and most dedicated adherent to Survivalism. What are the chances that he became a worldhopper but NOT a member of the Ghostbloods? I assume this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything written on it. Have I made some faulty assumptions? Thanks!

It has been bothering me that Zahel was nowhere to be seen once Urithiru was invaded in Rhythm of War. I understand that his whole prerogative these days is just to lay low and stay uninvolved, but I feel like that wouldn't of been possible during the invasion. Is it possible that Kelsier could have attempted to kidnap him? I dunno if the ghostbloods would even be able to pull that off but it does align with his motives. His whole reason for wanting shallan to capture kelek was to (correct me if I'm wrong) help him find a way to break his tether to Scadrial. Vasher would be WAYYY more helpful in that regard. he is also a highly invested cognitive shadow that has been world hopping for longer than almost any other world hopper we know of. That might be what Mraize was up to in Urithiru. It is hard for me to believe that the ghostbloods would be capable of that but not entirely impossible for me to believe it either.

I only recently noticed I hadn't updated my favourite Story-theory yet with the new Dawnshard/RoW Knowledge, so here goes. TL; DR: Kelsier will try to reforge and become Ambition. Collecting enough of Ambitions Investiture will enable him to ascend to Shardhood. So, RoW answered atleast some of my thoughts about what Kel would get up to. It also fed into my theory, so it's time to dig that up again. First, the arguments that still hold: (New Arguments at the bottom) - He tasted Ascension with Preservation. And now that he knows that's a thing that is possible, it seems like a worthy goal to keep himself busy with. - Hoid seems to be interested in keeping the Shards from gaining too much power and keeping them seperated. Kelsier hates him. Would be fun to have them square off in that kind of way, especially with Hoid as the MC of Mistborn Era 4 You might ask: But why specifically Ambition? - At the end of Secret History, Vin asks Kelsier an important question about his motivation. We're lead to believe that Kelsier will look inside himself and realize that she was right and his vendetta against the Lord Ruler was more about himself than the Skaa or Scadrial. From RoW, we can gather that he probably accepted that and doubled down on it - see Thaidakar. We saw that Preservations Intent and Kelsier's personality were too different. Of all the shards we know, Ambition would fit him really well. He's insanely ambitious, going so far as to think up a way to overthrow an - as far as he knew - immortal Emperor. He punched multiple gods. And he created a multiple-world-spanning secret Organisation. If that isn't ambitious, I don't know what is. - Additionally, according to my Understanding, Ambition is one of the, if not the, least limiting Intents. With all we've read about Ruin corrupting Ati, Odium and Honor and Preservation etc limiting their Vessels, Ambition is... not really like that. I'm sure there some zany stuff there, but I doubt becoming Ambition would hinder Kelsiers Megalomania, if anything it would further increase it. And it wouldn't bind him to anything stupid like Oaths or whatever, which he definitely wouldn't want. But there's more hints towards my theory. - Foreshadowing (pun intended). When Kelsier encountered the Ire, they mentioned Threnody Shades. As Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow, their Alerter Fabrial picked up on him. I believe that this might be more than fanservice for those of us who read Shadows for Silence. Threnody is the one planet we know where Investiture from Ambition "landed" in large chunks. It's already connected to Cognitive Shadows, and the names of the planets in the Threnodite system are all the names of Songs of Mourning - and Kelsier is dead ( also as in "The Bands of Mourning", which Kelsier used) - Threnody and Sel are the only other two planets that Kelsier canonically knew as of the end of secret history. Putting himself in opposition of the Ire, it wouldn't be too far fetched that he would have investigated what it is that these very knowledgable people are trying to contain that they confused him with. Not a far stretch imho. It seems that on Roshar, the Ghostbloods already have plan and directive, so I assume Kelsier already has had some kind of plan by the time they set up on Roshar. - Ambition was splintered, but unlike Dominion and Devotion. While we know that Odium stuffed those two in the Cognitive Realm to make sure they wouldn't be picked up again, as far as we know he didn't know how to do that yet when he finished off Ambition outside the Threnodite system. So while Ambition is probably spread out in dead chunks of Investiture, someone ambitious enough with a lot of time could try to collect those. - Additionally, Edgli (Endowment) seemed to think that Ambitions last Vessel would've been trouble, and seems glad that she's gone. From different WoB's we know that Sazed's ascension has caused quite a stir, so Kelsier could definitely take up the troublemaking mantle of Uli Da very well. Alright, time for the new arguments and thoughts: Two things are majorly important: - The Ghostbloods are looking for ways to transport Investiture. Ba-Ado-Mishram, Gems, Stormlight... Aside from trying to find a way for their Master to actually move beyond Scadrial, they are looking for ways to transport Investiture. Sure, Money and Power are good motivators, but I think there's a second reason for that: Moving Chunks of Ambition. What would this do for them? Well... Douglas What about a lerasium savant? Or would that require so much lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder? Brandon Sanderson Basically, this is what Ascension is. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012) I imagine the Plan to go something like this: Step 1: Find a way to store most of the big chunks of Ambition's Investiture. I assume it's not all in the form of Shades, so imagine Gems and whatever stuffed full of Investiture - if necessary, Step 2: Convert it into a Form Thaidakar can use. If Raboniel and Navani can figure out Light physics, I'm sure people in Silverlight or other Scholars somewhere are able to do so too. I'd be surprised if the Ghostbloods didn't have some smart Cosmere Scientists on their Payroll. Convert all that Investiture into solid form: a metal. Uli Dum/Ambitium - Step 3: Kelsier burns massive amounts of Ambitium or an Ambitium/Lerasium Alloy, preferrably physically close to Threnody, somewhere in the system. Once he has burnt enough of it, Kelsier ascends to Ambition. The Investiture that hasn't been collected hopefully realigns itself to its new Vessel, and Kel is a Shard now. Aside from those reasons, just think of how absolutely fitting this would be for Kelsiers Story, both in-universe and Meta, for us readers. Kelsier, the Survivor, survives the most deadly place on Scadrial, the pits of Hathsin, under the rule of an "immortal god-emperor", spiting said Emperor. He goes on to challenge that Emperor, and while dying in the Process, deifies himself as The Survivor, sparking both the Revolt that finally took down the Lord Ruler and a Religion around himself. He Survives Death, and goes on to help out at the other very deadly part of Scadrial, the South, and also kinda becomes the god of the people there after helping them survive. Notice a pattern? What better than to do this a third time? The Survivor, a kinda-ghost kinda-god, focusses his attention on the deadliest planet in the known universe, Threnody. If any one people in the Cosmere is doing more surviving than the South Scadrians, it's definitely the people on Threnody. (Try to tell me Kelsier wouldn't like Silence Montane.) After the disaster of Ruin and Preservation and the prophecy, Scadrial needed a god like Harmony to rest and stabilize under. Threnodys woes aren't over, however. What they need is a fighter god, someone able to take on the Evil. Someone who embodies the Will to Survive that Threnodians need, and the Ambition to pull through with it, to take up a fight this hopeless. a ghost-god that's already fought one immortal evil fits into Threnody well, and it would fit so well into Kelsiers story to do his shtick a third time: Help people survive and become their god. Only this time, it would actually be true, and he'd ascend to Shardhood.

So I was rererererererereading WoR, and I got to the scene where Shallan first meets Mraize and the Ghostbloods. The book describes Mraize's collection of glass boxes holding artifacts that are unfamiliar to Shallan. Here's the exact quote: That second paragraph of stuff, given what we now know about Mraize's off-world hopping, could very well be from somewhere else. (others, I think, have mentioned this). ANyone have any theories, ideas, WoBs, etc relating to this? My guess for the sand would (obviously) be Taldain, because it's white sand, but other than that, I have nothing.

So, recently was thinking back on Brandon's description of the Ghostbloods while talking with the 17th shard. To summarize very very briefly, Brandon mentioned that the people drawn to Kelsier's organization are very cut throat and competitive (much like their leader). However, those that Kelsier handpicks or directly oversea tend to be more along the lines of what we saw in era 1. So, A thought I had was that the organization draws people more innately like Kelsier. Yet, the ones he prefers to serve under him are more like his old crew in that they serve as the brakes to his acceleration. As we saw a lot in the first mistborn book Dox, Ham, Breeze, and Clubs all worked hard to curtail some of Kelsier's worst traits. Now given Kelsier's obvious comfort with his own insanity and his egotism I think he is doubtful to try and work very hard to change that. So instead he essentially hires people out to be his own conscience. Particularly given his natural inclination to like innately good people even while not being one himself. Afterword Thank you to those who read this. Kind of random but I guess I am feeling the withdrawal of cosmere content and wanted to voice some thoughts. If you have comments, contradictions, or just wish to talk more I encourage you to comment. Hope you all have a great day, night, etc. Just keep in mind, "There's always another secret."

Spoilers All Cosmere This is just some crazy tinfoil idea that I had. I've long had a pet theory that Kelsier was connected to another Shard. He has such commitment to his ideals that it speaks of great Intent. He comes off as cocky and self-interested but his willingness to sacrifice himself - and pursue his ideals even thereafter! - shows the depth of his devotion. I used to think that, if he was influenced by a shard, it was probably Bavadin. Her penchant for Investing herself into Avatars is well known. Kelsier's anti-authoritarianism seems pretty Autonomous. And Kel's immidiate antipathy towards Hoid seems rather as if he "has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of" our favorite flautist. This seems a little hard to square with his becoming a ruler (the Sovereign) on Scadrial, and a leader (Thaidakar) to the Ghostbloods. But it's possible. Perhaps there is no greater autonomy than sovereignty. Kelsier created the Bands of Mourning, an artifact so powerful as to grant its user quite a bit of "freedom and self-direction." But of all the questions about the Bands of Mourning, one gets a little lost: Why are they so named? I don't believe that the eponymous book gives an answer. But another text may: Shadows For Silence In The Forest Of Hell. Shadows for Silence is set on the planet Threnody, namesake of the Threnodite system. The other planets in that system include Monody and Elegy. A threnody is "a wailing lament composed or performed as a memorial to a dead person." Both a monody and an elegy are "poems lamenting a person's death." All three of these are examples of mourning. There's no Shard in the Threnodite system now. We know that several Shards were once there - Odium, Ambition, and Mercy. A "wail for the dead" doesn't speak much of Ambition, and though it is Passionate it doesn't really feel like "God's own hatred." Mercy? "Compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm." That doesn't sound much like a death-song - and it sounds nothing like Kelsier. In the Threnodite system, then, one of two things seems likely. The first possibility is that the planets are named for some other Shard. Perhaps this is one of the two we haven't encountered - maybe it is the Shard of Grief? Maybe Memory? The second possibility is that this system was created, or at least deeply touched, by all three of the shards which once resided there: Odium, Ambition, and Mercy. What do you get when you mix striving, passion, and forgiveness? I think that you would get the creation, of a song, of mourning. Perhaps Kelsier is touched by something from these worlds. Kelek's Breath but there are enough Cognitive Shadows running around Threnody! And we know that the Selish Ire have set up pickets around Scadrial's subastral specifically to prevent Threnodite Shades from coming through via Shadesmar. And we know that Kelsier had a deeply transformative experience when he was enslaved in the Pits of Hathsin - the Lord Ruler's prison, the source of all atium, but also a Perpendiculatiry. Maybe a Shade got through the Ire's picket and touched Kelsier. Maybe it was more than one of the apparently simple-minded Shades we see in Shadows for Silence. Perhaps all of the Shades of Threnody contain portions of the three Shards we know were present there. Maybe they contain an especially large portion of Ambition, since Uli Da was the one so wounded there. One part hatred, three parts self-striving, and one part "a desire to relieve suffering." ...that sounds a lot like Kelsier to me.