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I am currently on my first read-through of Oathbringer and in chapter 22, The Darkness Within, Adolin brings Shallan along to talk to Ialai about Sadeas' murder, and then Shallan and Mraize go off to talk to each other. I haven't finished this chapter yet because I am completely blanking on when Shallan actually revealed herself as Shallan to Mraize. I have a vague memory of some interaction between them, but I really have no clue when this happened. If someone could just explain this to me or tell me where to look back to, it would really be great.

This is the first post this long that I make here, and it probably sounds weird, but it's because I'm using Google Translate and my language is Spanish. Well, I've seen that for quite some time now, Kelsier has earned a reputation as a "psychopath" and a "villain", even affirmed by Brandon himself. But being more objective, I feel like that reputation is undeserved, although I agree that Kell is self-centered and an anti-hero because of his circumstances. Getting to the point, some examples of why Kelsier can't be a psychopath are: * He hates nobles (as Marsh hates obligators) because they murdered his mother when they found out that she was a skaa and not a noble. Killing so many nobles may have been ruthless, but really Kelsier had that hatred because he loved his mother, and it's no different than Kaladin's hatred for lighteyes due to the death of Tien and the people he couldn't protect, and Kal is not a psychopath for it (he suffers from depression but it is something radically different). * Kelsier really loves his friends, he is uncompromisingly loyal and literally went to his death to protect his friends (Spook, OreSeur and the other prisoners). * Kelsier really loved Mare, he always says it and it shows that it is true, an example of this is the beginning of Eleventh Metal (destroyed by her death) and then in a couple of conversations with Vin at TFE. A psychopath CANNOT love, and when he is with someone, he does it for convenience and thanks to manipulations, since he has a total lack of empathy. * Kelsier's powers as Mistborn appeared from the pain of Mare's death. * Kelsier really admires good people, according to WoB, although Kell is not quite a good person, but none of that means he is a psychopath and Dark Lord. * Kelsier feels guilty when Vin was nearly killed by the inquisitors at Kredik Shaw, and a psychopath cannot feel guilty for his actions. * Kelsier feels pain and sadness for the deaths of the army in TFE, then for the deaths of Dockson and Elend, and also for the comments of Ati before going to the Ire fortress. In particular, he feels pain, sadness and anger over the supposed death of Marsh, whom he loved for being his brother despite their differences (situation and subsequent revenge similar to what happened with his mother). * After Vin was nearly killed by the inquisitors at Kredik Shaw, we are emphasized a million times that Kelsier became a much more thoughtful and better person, reaching the point where he did not kill nobles indiscriminately, saved the Elend's life and after Secret History, we see that he stopped having that hatred with which he killed nobles. * According to Vin, when she and Kelsier visited skaa in the evenings, she felt that Kelsier genuinely loved and cared about skaa, and she probably did with Southerners as well. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Brandon's work and in general I agree and impressed with the construction of his characters, but Kelsier's bad reputation seems undeserved, and besides, there are main characters with actions that are as questionable or more despicable than Kelsier, for example: * Wax feels no guilt in killing criminals. * Kaladin had a fierce hatred of lighteyes, which he overcame, just as Kelsier largely overcame his hatred of nobles. * Vin didn't feel guilty about killing koloss and inquisitors (although she did feel guilty about doing extreme killings, like the one she did with Zane), but herself, she was also an assassin. * Elend felt no guilt in killing enemy koloss, inquisitors, and soldiers, plus in HoA he became a (but necessary) tyrant. * Marsh hated obligors in a similar way to Kelsier with nobles (said by Marsh himself in TFE). * And finally the most questionable of all, Dalinar. He was literally a tyrant and genocidal, he killed thousands and thousands of people to unify Aletzkhar, even burning an entire city, killing hundreds of people in each battle and enjoying the bloodbath (The Thrill is not an excuse, it is not like Ruin controlling the inquisitors, but rather like emotional allomancy, nothing to do with a control of people but igniting something they already feel). Dalinar is a great character but Kelsier did not kill a small part of what Dalinar did, who is not a psychopath and is redeemed despite carrying thousands and thousands of deaths on his back. I also don't think that the fact that Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow makes him a villain, evil, or psychopath. He's only been around for 300 years and in the comfort of Scadrial. While, that the Cognitive Shadows that are crazy are the Heralds due to THOUSANDS of years of torture in Braize, in addition to that they have been 7000 years old, and Kelsier only 300 which is only about 5% that the Heralds. I really like that Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods, I think his crew was the antecedent of the organization, and that after the Catacendre and Spook bringing Kelsier to the Physical Realm with hemalurgy, the first Ghostbloods were Kell and Spook as leaders, Ham, Breeze, Allrianne, Beldre, Cett, Noorden, maybe Yomen and Marsh, and probably Felt. (Also, that would leave us with that The Set is a reaction to the Ghostbloods, and that in Scadrial both organizations have a feud like the Ghostbloods with the Sons of Honor in Roshar). The problem is that Mraize is despicable and that if Kelsier were in Roshar, the Ghostbloods would be less questionable, but hey, Mraize's actions DO NOT DEFINE the entire organization or Kelsier himself. In closing, I thank those who have read this far. I think Kelsier is seen as "evil" right now but remember that the information is given by two really questionable people and they are probably worse than Kelsier: Kalak and our beloved Cephandrius. I hope Brandon amazes us with Kelsier's handling of Stormlight 5, Wax and Wayne 4, and Mistborn Era 3, and that he applies the Lord of the Scars mantra. There is always another secret.

RoW spoilers within One fine day, in a lavish manor on the lovely world of Eddings, three tricksters gathered. There they came to a decision that was to them of little consequence, but of great import to the multiverse and all who dwelled therein. For on this day Prince Kheldar of Drasnia, David Xanatos of New York, and Kelsier of Scadrial, determined to rob the multiverse, for the sole purpose of alleviating their collective boredom. Chaos and Mayhem ensue as the grand tapestry upon which all stories written and unwritten dwell was promptly torn to shreds. And so we begin. The first target: The world of Harry Potter. Silk (aka. Prince Kheldar), native of Drasnia on Eddings, the world of the Belgariad. Quick witted and sharp tongued, he’s his nation’s greatest spy and he’s helped save the world twice. The richest man on his homeworld, he’s married to fellow spy Velvet (aka. Liselle) and has a young child. His half brother, Urgit, is the king of Murgos and his cousin Kheva is King of Drasnia. Played by @Lecky Twig David Xanatos, native of New York on Earth-G, the world of Gargoyles. A suave and wealthy businessman, he has few morals and fewer compunctions, particularly when pursuing power. Currently nominally on the side of good, after an extended period of villainy. Inventor of the Xanatos Gambit (TM), he is happily to married to fellow trickster Fox, and has a young son, Alexander. He is aided and abetted by his loyal servant, Owen. Played by @Narcoleptic Axolotl Kelsier, native of pre-Catascande Scadrial in the Cosmere, the starcluster where Mistborn, Stormlight and several other Sanderson stories take place. (But you know this, don’t you? You should; this IS the 17th Shard.) Charming and charismatic, he’s been a conman, a revolutionary, a god, and currently runs his universe’s version of the mafia. He’s also trapped on his homeworld, much to his annoyance. Played by me, Kingsdaughter613. I’m putting this here because obviously we’re going to bring up the Kelsier - Thaidakar thing. Once the spoiler period is over this can be moved to the RP boards (or earlier, if the mods say it’s okay.) If anyone would like to join you are welcome to PM me. You are welcome to offer to play various characters in the different worlds the trio visits, members of their respective supporting casts, or additional tricksters - if you can convince me that they’re of a similar bent as these three dastards. @Lecky Twig We’re in Silk’s home, so you get to start us off.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I am relistening to Oathbringer in preparation for RoW, and I noticed when Shallan sees Mraize while he is undercover with Sadeas' troops that Mraize has a green chicken with a wicked looking beak. Could this be an aviar from First of the Sun?

Does anyone know who Thaidakar's master is? In RoW Mraiz talks about how his master is Thaidakar but he also has a master. Thaidakar being a cognitive shadow really the only higher rank would be godhood. Which would also mean that the ghostbloods are ruled by a god. Any thoughts?

My first topic in the RoW spoiler Boards. How exciting for all of you. Topics of the week seem to be coming back. So, When Mraize finds Lift, he says he's been waiting for an excuse to hunt her. This magged me a bit, and the whole thing made me want to punch Mraize in his teeth, as kidnapping and then trading Lift is completely abhorrent on it's own, and then finding out that Keliser is the leader of the Ghostbloods and somehow condoned this was very out of character. And then it occured to me that Mriaze needed an excuse to hunt Lift, and the only person who could forbid Mraixe from doing something would be one of his superiors and possibly even keliser. So did Kelsier forbid Mraize or any Ghostblood from harming Lift, and it wasn't until Lift did something like attacking the bird that Mriaze could retaliate?

Wait! Ishar has been trying to bring spren into the physical realm. Kelsier is a CS and very similar to a spren. What would whatever Ishar is doing do to Kelsier? Would it bring him back to life? Will the Ghostbloods find out and try to steal his research to bring Kelsier out of the cognitive? I needed to get this out there in a moment of grand inspiration. Someone bring this up to BS tomorrow in the livestream if I am unable to! Edit: I was able to ask the question and get an answer, which was yes, this would help him, in a roundabout way.

Sorry on mobile device.... Ghost blood goals: - secure investiture and move it off world. - learn more about cognitive shadows conditions for the lord of scars. They seem to be aware of heralds and their honorblades and capabilities. Do they want to get the lord of scars Ishar’s honorblade so that he can create a real connection to a body as well as an investiture source for him to power said honorblade. Thinking of him with the insanely OP bondsmith powers is terrifying.

This is a idea I came up with before Rhythm of War came out. Originally I collected a bunch of information to connect the Ghostbloods to Hemalurgy but then the Thaidakar reveal made all that irrelevant. Theory: The Davar family were practicing Hemalurgist. Shallan's Mother was spiked before her death and Shallan possibly has spikes that she is not aware of due to her repressed memories. This theory provides an explanation to several of the loose threads we have with the Ghostbloods. The Ghostbloods are led by a man named Thaidakar who goes by the title Lord of Scars, there is strong evidence to suggest that this man is actually Kelsier the Survivor. Their goal as explained to Shallan is to traffic Investiture and they are currently trying to get easy access on and off Roshar. Two major things we don't know about the Ghostbloods is why were they involved with the Davar family and why are they trying to kill Jasnah Kohlin. Why were the Ghostbloods involved with the Davar Family? The GB need an easy way on and off of Roshar so they can traffic Stormlight. They are well aware of Hemalurgy due to their connections to Scardrial. I believe that they were attempting to use Duralamin spikes to create a psuedo-Nahal bond. This would explain why they have spent so much effort trying to kill Jasnah, as an Elsecaller she has access to the surge of Transportation which would be very valuable to their cause. I theorize that A Duralmin spike made from a Lightweaver was given to Shallan Davar and this is where the Radiant persona and bond with Testament originated. Evidence from Rhythm of War - Chapter 93 In this excerpt Brandon uses the metaphor of being stabbed through the heart with a spike TWICE to describe the pain Shallan feels at remembering her childhood. Additionally Shallan remembers her mother lying on the ground with "a length of metal in her chest" not a Shardblade in her chest. Shardblades don't cut through human flesh and they vanish when not being held. I'm not saying that Shallan didn't kill her mother with the Testament blade but what I am saying is that the metal that she is describing doesn't fit what we know of Shardblades but it does fit what we know about hemalurgic spikes. This also explains why Shallan believed her Mother's Soul is locked in the safe. If hemalurgy was done on her it would make sense that she would have had some understanding of what was being done to her and when she killed her mother she would have been under the impression that the Testament blade had absorbed her mother's soul. Thoughts?

So I just noticed this. In part one Mraize and Shallan are talking and we get this conversation: “Iyatil has reported to Master Thaidakar,” Mraize said, “and he has accepted—after some initial anger—that we will not be able to control the Oathgates. I explained that there at least is a calming wind in this, like the riddens of a storm. With Dalinar controlling the Oathgates, he can prosecute the war against Odium.” “And that helps your cause?” “We have no interest in seeing the enemy rule this world, Shallan. Master Thaidakar wishes only to secure a method for gathering and transporting Stormlight.” Mraize held his broam up again. Like a miniature sun beside the real one. Then in Part Five we have this: “Perhaps. Can you handle my master? Can you handle her master?” “Thaidakar?” Shallan guessed. “Ah, so you’ve heard of him?” Yes, Mraize. You only mentioned him several times. More seriously... That comment makes no sense. Of COURSE Shallan has heard about Thaidakar; Mraize name dropped him TWICE when sending her on this mission. And why is Shallan ‘guessing’? She knows Iyatil reports to Thaidakar. Beta readers, do you know if this was noticed and kept in intentionally? Because it’s a pretty big inconsistency. If it isn’t an accident, which it probably isn’t, then I have a couple of guesses. Shallan guessing: she suspects Mraize is referring to Thaidakar, but wants to be certain. So it’s an educated guess. Or the word guess was in error, but that’s a fairly minor one. Mraize’s statement: he’s drawing attention away from what he just said. He wasn’t referring to Thaidakar as Iyatil’s master, but another high ranking GB on Roshar. It was a slip, and Shallan just gave him the perfect way to cover it up. Notice how quick he is to let her know Thaidakar isn’t actually on Roshar. Thoughts?

Does it say anywhere? I've been wondering... and then this morning I came across this WoB: If Kell took over rather than creating them from scratch... I feel that would explain a lot.

[Spoilers All] This started on Reddit, but since I've discovered this incredible site, I thought I'd bring it over here. Apologies if I'm doing this wrong, etc. Strongly appreciate corrections and feedback; I am only so realmatically aware :-) In a nutshell: I am starting to see the goals of a lot of the non-Shardic players in the Cosmere as: searching for a way to transport Investiture between Shardworlds. This is particularly apparent in The Ghostbloods. In Rhythm of War, I read Mraize's statement to Shallan as this: the goal of the Ghostbloods is to assure the persistence of Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow. As Kelek says, the persistence of a Cog requires Investiture. And it makes sense that Kel doesn't have much access to that. For a Cog to access Investiture, it needs any one of the following: -granted it directly by a Shard -on a Shardworld where lots of free investiture is available -on a Shardworld with investiture accessible, and sufficiently Connected to that world to access it -brought Investiture from such a source to it Our boi The Survivor comes up short on all counts: Kel could get some Investiture from the Shard(s) on Scadrial. But this seems unlikely. On the one hand, there's Harmony's growing tendency towards inaction in general; and on the other, I don't know if Sazed would Invest in our psychotic little Survivebro even if he could. He is on Scadrial. The amount of available Investiture there is simply very small - not even as a Mistborn. And as we learned in Secret History, he can't just wander off a-worldhoppin'. Either because the Investiture he has is too Connected to Scadrial to leave, or because he doesn't have enough to overcome this problem; I'm not sure. And a mechanism for bringing free Investiture from one Shardworld to another, has, I believe, not yet been discovered. Therefore, Kelsier would be content to find any of the following: -a way to get himself to Roshar. -a way to get himself to another Shardworld - Nalthis, Sel, Taldain (tho probably not Threnody), and also then access the local manifestation of Investiture. -a way to get free Investiture from any of those places to Scadrial. Has anyone else done this? Not quite. There are only two Cogs that I can think of, who we know were able to worldhop: Vasher and Shashara. From WoB I believe we know that this exact predicament is what caused Vasher to leave Nalthis for Roshar. But I expect it was a lot easier for Vasher to worldhop. He started off very Invested. A Returned with a Divine Breath, naturally Fifth Heightening... however you want to phrase it: Gruff Bae had a lot of Investiture. And as we know from Peacegiver's Treasure, he was definitely no stranger to acquiring more - Nor was Shashara, which we know from the fat stacks she expended in the creation of Nightblood. How is Kelsier going about this? I think he tried several things, one after another. I expect that he created the Bands Of Morning as a scientific experiment attempting to acces more of Scadrial's Investiture. Obviously it didn't work. It wouldn't surprise me if he tried to contact another Shard seeking, uhm, "sponsorship." (Giv avatar plz). This might well be related to all the Trelagist stuff on Scadrial. Whatever, and however - it seems it didn't work. We know from Mraize's Mancave Of Miracles that the Ghostbloods have been to many worlds. And they have brought back from them many Investiture-related objects, including white sand (Taldain), aviars (First of the Sun), and seons (Sel). Clearly nothing has solved the puzzle. We've also seen several ferruchemists offworld. It wouldn't surprise me if some of these are Ghostbloods. Metalminds allow for direct experimentation with the storing of Identity, Connection, and Investiture (Aluminum, Duralumin, and Nicrosil) on other worlds. These Terris people truly are cosmerenauts. However, he Kel hasn't figured out a way for him to Connect to one of these places sufficiently to access their Investiture; or he has, but not in a way that is strong enough to let him survive the trip to it. His work on Roshar - and his interests in Kalak especially - show that he is interested in the free investiture of Stormlight. This leads me to believe that he has concluded that he cannot get Investiture where he is, nor can he get to a better source of Investiture; he needs to bring the Investiture to him. What would the Realmatic effects of this be? #1 - it would give Cognitive Shadows on any Shardworld access to the life-persisting Investiture of the other worlds. Lots of Light = lots of shadows (heyooo). #2 - it would let forms of Investiture manipulation here be powered with Investiture from there. Which means intergalactic arbitrage opportunities for power - practically speaking, allowing merchants the opportunity to elevate themselves to positions of rulership, even interplanetarily so. #3 - probably tons of Realmatic things that I cannot even fathom. Who wouldn't want Kelsier to succeed? #1 - possibly, some or all Shards, as this would threaten their hegemonies over their planets specifically, and over the Cosmere as a whole #2 - every other group who wants to get this technology for themselves - so just rivals for power. This might include The Set, The Sons of Honor, who knows what. #3 - any noninterventionist group, I would think, would object to such a cosmic realignment of power. So I doubt Frost and his 17ers are all about this. Probably not the Sleepless either. Okay, that's how I read this. Am I entirely offbase? Whaddya guys think? -silver

Always another secret. I need to formulate this. The expedition makes for a gripping yarn. But it makes no sense. Not if you think it through under the stated purposes. Motivation and equipment (a.k.a. overly robust techniques of motivation) Kalak and the purported Kelsier share a goal. They want to make Cognitive Shadows mobile. Kalak looks ready to do things I shall not mention to get somebody to develop such technologies. What is the Ghostbloods first action towards him? Shallan, stab him to death! Even if you have the technology to contact him in that gem, why? It lacks any sense. Methods (a.k.a. living on a prayer) You have a weapon. The only other time such a weapon was used, it did, for the purpose of capture, fail catastrophically. You have no idea whether your version actually fell into your hands undamaged or if you copied the design, whether you made an error. And then you give it to the hands of an untrained freelancer. Cost/benefit analysis (a.k.a. pointy haired middle managers) You have a weapon containg a god metal. Most likely a substance of which exist at most a few kilogramms in the whole Cosmere. You handle it in an unsecured package without guards to an untrusted trainee, who used to be the assistant of an enemy less than a year ago Target selection (a.k.a. work by Rube Goldberg) You are supposed to be put back into a living body. Like a Fused. You want to experiment with one of the rarest beings in the Cosmere whose body is created by exotic means. Somebody is trying to trick somebody. I am not sure what is what in that web of lies, but the cover story is flawed beyond repair. Who wants a Herald dead: Odium - for obvious reasons Hoid - as long as Heralds are alive, one of them may die and break, which could set Odium free again, should the current Desolation end

I’m not entirely sure if this has been put out there yet. I hop in only occasionally between book releases, so I apologize if this is a long-standing theory. I’m just going to come out and say it. Thaidakar is Kelsier. This passage from Chapter 115 of RoW is as explicit of proof as possible short of full confirmation. Lord of Scars? Obviously reference to the scars on his arms. Wit’s comment to him? Who else has Wit “slapped around”? Very few people considering he can’t harm others. Not to mention, the comment about “dealing with [his] own planet” - Scadrial isn’t exactly full of sunshine and rainbows at the moment, since this takes place before Era 2. Finally is the fact that we know of at least one very high up member, just one level below the big boss, who is from Scadrial in Iyatil. I haven’t dug around too much, and it’s possible this can be refuted somewhere in the text, but I think this links are set up too perfectly for Thaidakar to be anyone but Kelsier. Standard disclaimer that this could be red herrings, but it feels...too perfect to be that. Thoughts?

I was doing a reread of Words of Radiance coming up to the release of Rhythm of War. In Chapter 63, Shallan overhears Mraize talking about the Sons of Honor and mentions Restares. He goes on to say: It appears that even back in Words of Radiance, Restares was in Lasting Integrity! And Mraize knew of this! The mention of songs he listens to is however very intriguing, perhaps we will find something odd about Lasting Integrity when Shallan and Adolin reach it? The way Mraize talks makes it sound as if Restares has been there for a while. How does he communicate with the outside world? Do spanreeds that are taken through a perpendicularity work with one half in Shadesmar, and the other in the Physical Realm? Amaram contacted him for advice regarding what to do with Kaladin and his squad mates, after Kaladin saved Amaram from the assassin shardbearer, so they must have some relatively fast way of communicating, or Restares was still in the Physical Realm at that point. Thoughts?

I've started a reread of Oathbringer in anticipation for Rhythm of War, and just thought I'd spend way too long dissecting like one line that Pattern says. So, at the beginning of Chapter 40 of Oathbringer we have a letter sent to Shallan by the Ghostbloods explaining stuff about the Sons of Honor and the Skybreakers. After we get to read the letter, (on page 422 of the hardcover) Pattern drops this: Now, I know Pattern likes to drop the word "lies" in a crap ton of places that most of us wouldn't, and I don't believe that he's some sort of lie detector who will 100% always know when a lie is there. However, I do believe that the Branderson pays very, very deep attention to his writing and that he may have dropped this line as a flag to this reader, like "Hey, this thing is written by the Ghostbloods, and they have no reason to tell the whole truth to Shallan: just enough of the truth to keep her hooked and convinced that they have information she doesn't. Take the cue." Well, do I think there is any hard, textual evidence that this letter is a bit cremmy? Yes, but let's work it all out. Yes, I'm going to call it "crem" instead of "BS," just live with it. Here's the outline of the points that the letter made: Besides the Ghostbloods, there are (at least) two other secret societies: the Sons of Honor and the Skybreakers. Gavilar and Amaram were members of the Sons of Honor. The Sons of Honor sought to return the Desolation in order to strengthen the Vorin church, and this lead to Gavilar's assassination (although others also wanted him dead). The Skybreakers, lead by Nale, did not betray their oaths and have persisted since the Recreance. Nale kills those who are on the verge of becoming Radiants, or sends his Skybreakers/acolytes to do so because he fears new Radiants will lead to a new Desolation. (Alternatively, he turns them into Skybreakers if they are properly aligned) Shallan's mother was associated with the Skybreakers, who may have detected a budding Radiant in her household. This lead to her attempt to murder Shallan. However, the Skybreakers ended up believing this Helaran was the one bonding a spren. Helaran was sent to kill Amaram because of his affiliation with the Sons of Honor. The Skybreakers knew about a member of Amaram's army about to bond a spren, and this person was "eliminated." Kaladin was unknown to them, because otherwise he'd be dead. Now, let's sift through these 5 points and see if we find any crem. Point 1: No crem detected. This pretty much confirms what we see from Amaram's chapter in Words of Radiance about the Sons of Honor, and what Szeth sees later on in Oathbringer. The reference to others wanting Gavilar dead makes sense when you remember his last words about Sadeas and Thaidakar. I might modify the "vorin" bit just because Gavilar seems very cosmere-aware and less religious than just plain power hungry but otherwise this seems accurate. Point 2: No crem detected. We've seen this happen multiple times, and heard Nale's monologue. Point 3: Probably some crem. Some stuff isn't adding up here. Shallan's mom clearly knew that Shallan was the Radiant, so why would the Skybreakers suddenly decide that it's Helaran? They do not explain how Shallan's mother knows about Shallan's bond while the rest of the Skybreakers do not, and this looks like a major hole in the Ghostblood's story. At the very least, they are leaving out some details about either Shallan's mother or Helaran's affiliation. (warning: very minor spoiler for the Rhythm of War Prologue, which Brandon has read online.) Point 4: This is where my crem alarm went off. Let's think this one through. At first glance, the Skybreakers and the Sons of Honor have obvious opposing ideals and it's easy to buy that the Skybreakers would assassinate one of the Sons of Honor. But let's take a closer inspection and see if we've read any hard evidence of these two groups fighting. No. In fact, we've seen the opposite. Let's also look, again, at what Gavilar says as he's dying. He thinks he's been assassinated by either Sadeas or Thaidakar, not by the Skybreakers. Despite the fact that his assassin can STORMING FLY. Throughout his entire battle with Gavilar, Szeth only uses his surge of Gravitation. (okay tbh I'm not rereading to check but I'm pretty darn sure Szeth doesn't try to stick stuff to Gavilar with Adhesion, and also Decay probably wouldn't work against Shardplate so Gavilar has no reason not to believe he's using Skybreaker surges). The fact that Gavilar doesn't think his FLYING, GLOWING assassin is a Skybreaker would be simply ridiculous if he knew that they opposed him. (I'm also assuming Gavilar knows about the Skybreakers from his conversation with Nale). Well, you might say that we're now talking about Gavilar when we should really be talking about Amaram. That's a fair point, so let's look a the timing and execution here. First of all, why now? The Sons of Honor don't seem to have had much of a plan following Gavilar's assassination, besides the extensive mapping of the Shattered Plains which Amaram is caught conducting by Shallan. But at this point in time, Amaram isn't in the Shattered Plains at all: he's fighting some random skirmishes in the middle of Alethkar. Why would they Skybreakers kill him now, when they left him alone when the Sons of Honor were on the verge of success during the night of Gavilar's death, and when he actually decided to go to the Plains later? The execution is also, like, really weird. The Ghostbloods claim that Helaran was sent to kill Amaram as a test, but it's hardly a test of skill for a full Shardbearer to take down a plain warrior. If this is a test, it's a wimpy one. And after Helaran's failure, why not send another assassin? Yes, Amaram is a bit beefier as a full shardbearer now but we clearly see Szeth, who is weaker than a 3rd oath Windrunner, best multiple full shardbearers (using mostly gravitation, I might add) and we know there are 3rd and 4th ideal Skybreakers along with 5th ideal Nale. Any of these guys could easily wallop Amaram's not-so-sorry chull straight to Braize. The only argument you might make is that it would attract a ton of attention, but guess who's flying around murdering full shardbearers at the time? Szeth would be the perfect cover story: if the Skybreakers assassinated Amaram at any point during the first two books, it would have been pinned on Szeth, no questions asked. What an unfathomably stupid opportunity to ignore. Also, much like Gavilar, Amaram thinks Thaidakar is to blame (although Amaram may not know of the Skybreakers). I simply cannot buy that the Skybreakers want Amaram dead. But wait, how does this make any sense? These two groups are blatantly opposed in intention. My best guess is that Nale would kinda like being revered as who he is and be able to enforce the law, and that he's fine with Radiants and a Desolation as long as he's in charge of directing the events—hence his collaboration with Gavilar. Point 5: Possible crem. The proto-radiant mentioned here seems to be Tien, and he does die. So why am I calling out some crem? Because of all the crem in point 4. If Helaran wasn't sent to kill Amaram, why was he there? How could they have noticed Tien, but not Kaladin? I think that Helaran WAS sent to kill Kaladin, and that his attack on Amaram was a tactic to draw Kaladin out. They're on a massive battlefield, and it's not really easy to pin down where one random soldier might be. But if you know they've got the ideals of a Windrunner, you know that they're sure as hell going to run to protect their commanding officer. Kaladin hasn't committed any crimes (even petty ones) that they could pin on him, so they had to kill him in a battle since that's not really illegal I guess? Meanwhile, the Ghostbloods don't tell Shallan about this so they can claim that the Skybreakers want to kill the Sons of Honor. As for why Kaladin wasn't killed by the Skybreakers while he was a slave, I think Amaram's cover-up may have actually worked. The Skybreakers assumed that Helaran's mission was accomplished (and that Amaram killed him) after they were unable to detect any further radiant activity from the area. At the very least, I think this is easier to explain than all the problems with Point 4. So, what's the point? If my analysis is correct, it seems like the Ghostbloods are trying to frame the Skybreakers for actions against the Sons of Honor. Conspicuously missing from the letter is any mention of where the Ghostbloods themselves stand on this conflict. We know that both Gavilar and Amaram think Thaidakar wants to murder them, and that Thaidakar is connected to the Ghostbloods. Why not tell Shallan that the Ghostbloods are in conflict with the Sons of Honor? Shallan is ideologically opposed to the Sons so it would even make sense for the Ghostbloods to make the case that they don't like each other. This seems like a glaring detail to omit. Personally, I think that the reason the Ghostbloods and Sons of Honor are in conflict is something pretty nefarious that they aren't willing to reveal, and that they thus want to paint as much antagonism as possible on both the Skybreakers and the Sons so that Shallan doesn't hate the Ghostbloods even more. So, that's been my absurdly long analysis stemming from a single sentence uttered by Pattern. Yup. There ya go. I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts, and feel free to murder me with words if you disagree with my breakdown. Edit: forgot to include this mini-theory originally Mraize's phrasing about Tien's death is interesting. The exact quote is "From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram's army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated." Eliminated. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but should we just believe the Skybreakers knew of Tien, yet did nothing? Tien's completely innocent of any crimes, so it protects him from their direct assassination but I wouldn't put it against the Skybreakers to pull a few strings and make sure a messenger boy winds up on the front lines of combat. If this mini-theory is true, then it has pretty big implications about how Kaladin might react towards the Skybreakers if he ever find this out.

When contemplating the Ghostbloods' methods I had a thought about how the Ghostbloods determined Shallan is a Lightweaver. I don't have hard evidence to back up, but here's the reasoning The Ghostbloods were impressed at Shallan's ability to evade their observers when infiltrating Amaram's warcamp Shallan avoiding assassination returning from the meeting where Shallan demonstrated her astonishing memorization abilities This may have lead to the Ghostbloods setting more than one person to observe Shallan retrieving the instructions. While Shallan was able to compromise Iyatil, a second tail would be able to observe Shallan revealing her head outside of the carriage at the entrance to the monastery (and could later help extract Iyatil). Mraize then leveraged that information in Urithiru to confirm Shallan could Soulcast and pressure her to stay with the Ghostbloods. I acknowledge that the situation of a message retrieval was crafted in a way that one agent should be able to tail Shallan, but as she was able to impress the Ghostbloods 3 times I think it likely that they could foresee the possibility of distraction or obstruction when the message is retrieved.

So, I was thinking about the different "Secret" organizations in Roshar after reading WoR for the 1000000000000000th time (Never gets old) and then I realized we the sons of honor want to return the desolations, the skybreakers want to stop them, but we have NO STORMING IDEA what the ghostbloods want. And we KNOW they know about worldhopping. What do you think their goal is?

The safehouse wasn't in the sewer system. The man who had used the safe house was, not the house itself. Rather, the safe house, in question, was an abandoned sewer treatment plant, with full access to the sewers in the Alleycity. There was another man. Frob. Or, rather, that was what he called himself. Names should be nice and simple, they should. That's what he told himself as he straightened things up in the safehouse. To him, it was nothing more than his home. Vesuvius had said there might be people looking for him. That was why he was leaving. Frob was silly. Silly Frob. But Frob was never a man to ignore his superiors. And Vesuvius was surely his superior. Frob looked down at his stump arm. All he had done was question why the man Vesuvius had brought, Benson, was missing an arm. The wound had been bleeding. Frob had been forced- No. Frob had been given the nice opportunity to help heal Benson. Frob didn't know Benson's whereabouts now, but he had seemed nice. Like Frob. Surely, Frob was nice, for letting Vesuvius use his safe house? For holding in his scream while Vesuvius punished him for his curiosity? Frob could still remember the pain, the sudden loss. He needed to massage his left hand, he did. The fingers were too cramped. The thing was, his left hand no longer existed. Well, it didn't exist outside of the little grave he had dug for it. He could remember the screams. He couldn't remember what Vesuvius had done to Benson, because they had gone off into a side room while Frob patched himself. But Benson hadn't returned. Vesuvius did, but only to leave a minute later, telling Frob, in mock kindness, emphasized by his decking Frob in the face with that metal arm of his, to leave. Well, Frob wasn't going to ignore such a thing as that. so, Frob left. He didn't have much possessions. He had friends. They were loyal. They all chose small names for themselves as Frob had. Frob was lucky to have friends that understood. It was raining. Frob didn't care. He liked rain. He liked the excuse to leave his little house and splish-splash in the puddles. That's what Frob did now. He had time to tally-wagon. The people Vesuvius had promised would get him would never find him. He promised Vesuvius that. He wouldn't break his promise.

So, we recently got the following WOB: Questioner (paraphrased) Have we seen Ghostbloods in action outside of the Rosharan system? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You have seen proto-Ghostbloods, but not after the their actual initiation. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) So, if I am understanding correctly, Brandon is saying we have seen characters that would later become Ghostbloods but weren't during the events of their book, kinda like how Demoux would later become a member of the 17th Shard but wasn't a member during the Mistborn trilogy. Given that, and given what little we know of the Ghostbloods, let's do what we do here at the 17th Shard and wildly speculate and then use confirmation bias to line up facts so they seem to support our claims. What characters do you think went on to join the Ghostbloods after their books?

okay, so we all remember Mraize's souvenirs from shardworlds: the vial of sand, the santhid skull, the preserved flower etc. however, the one that stood out the most (to me at least) was the branch with carvings on it

Interesting new WoB that leads to a micro-theory. So my theory is that they started as cognitive shadows of some sort, perhaps descendents of a CS that had children, or simply CS with a body (hence blood). I like the idea that it's of Threnodite origin, and the forces the IRE refer to. Curious to hear other ideas!