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I'll keep this simple. You can spike out allomancy from someone soulstamped to be an allomancer. But there were reservations about how viable that is. But a delicious new WoB indicates stamping someone to temporarily be an allomancer is easier than we thought because fooling the magic via Connection and Identity is not so hard. Manufacturing allomancers has moved into the realm of reasonable. Long live Forgery, the Cosmere's most delicious low-investiture magic. Long live Shai's unstoppable army of allomancers.

Given that both forgery and soulcasting seem to work on some level with the identity of an object, would it be possible to undo both magics by using Aluminum Feruchemy? That is if you could store the identity of an object in a metalmind. Yes, I know this is a little far fetched, but think about it for a moment.

Okay this isn't really a theory, it's simple logic: A gold misting would make an excellent soulforger due to the fact that they have the allomantic ability to see their possible other pasts. Thus, reforging their soul would be a simple process of writing down what they saw in their gold shadow. Of course, it would take a few tries to get the "right" possible past for each essence mark, but that doesn't change the fact that it would work. It would also take a lot of effort to learn the art of forgery, but I think being an augur-forger would be worth it (partially because it's so damnation awesome). Thoughts?

So I just read The Emperors Soul recently and I was intrigued by forgery and its implications with other magic systems. I have a bunch of questions that I'm curious if any of you know and what you all think about them. 1:Could you forge yourself into an Elantrian. I saw a WOB that said that it would be very hard, and that you'd have to change your birthplace. But the shaod can claim even people that are just visiting, so as long as you had visited once couldn't you just forge your past so that the shaod chose you? 2: Could you forge an Aviar in order to change its talent? This would be dependent on whether the talents come from some genetic aspect or they are competently random. 3:Could you forge broken shard-plate so that it never broke? I know that invested things don't like getting manipulated by other investiture, so it would take a ridiculous amount of power. But is it possible? 4: Assuming you lived on Scadrial, could you forge yourself into a steel inquisitor? I know that Allomancy and Feruchemy are hereditary, but Hemalurgy is not. so is it possible? 5: Could you forge a dead body to become Returned?

This may have been asked elsewhere, but if it has I haven't found it. How does someone become a forger? Is it hereditary to people from MaiPon, do people gain the ability to forge randomly, does everyone from MaiPon have the ability to forge, or is it something completely different?

I made this using Hombrewery, and you can find it here! The Prestige class requires a lot of DM input and is very power-gamey, but could be fun in the right play group. Thought you guys might appreciate it. Cheers, AKASketch

In The Emperor's Soul, Shai mentions that any material can be used to make a soulstamp, but crystal is the best material for making stamps that take. However, few people use it because it is difficult to carve, and Soulstone is almost as good, as well as easy to carve. In Khriss's essay about Sel in Arcanum Unbounded, she says that So my theory is: THINGS THAT ARE PHYSICALLY ORDERLY ARE THE MOST SELF AWARE. Crystals are orderly. That is the definition of a crystal. Shai mentions wood as something that is very difficult to carve. That makes sense, as wood is not orderly. Soulstone is different because it is a part of Devotion and Dominion. It came from those rocks that fell from the sky that the MaiPon used to worship. So the only advantage that crystal could possibly have over it is its order. Ideas?

***contains some spoilers for band of mourning, the emperors soul*** hello all i think this topic has been talked about before in terms of the link between soulcasting and forgery. however after i read the bands of mourning another peice of the puzzle slotted into place. My theory is that shallan being completely unaware can use her soul casting and connection to cryptic spren with her drawing ability to change a persons identity. For this im using Gaz and maybe Yalb as a example. Shallans Memory skill might come from her bond with the cryptic spren. They are described as being a infinite spren trying to see the truth of things (whenever i imagine pattern i always think of some ever changing fractal pattern), when i think of truth i think less of 'truth and lies' but more the mathematical, spiritual, cognatve and realistic truth of the cosmere. I think her Memory ability is part of this glimpsing the truth of a object's/person's reality in all three realms. i think she is able to hack into an object or persons idenity and seperate it and modify it. When she draws she is able to use the physical action of drawing to manifest this change. In this section she describes the charcol,page,and other tools as blood,sinew,skin. interestingly enough these terms are in the ars arcanum besides the heralds. Therefore important to all magic systems in the cosmere. As shallan is activley thinking of these in those terms it is having a reaction to her drawing in the cognative,spiritual realms as well. In Bands of Mourning we find out that a object/persons identity can be manipluated and changed when the Kandra are talking to the wax and wayne gang. Although they are talking in terms of investiture changing its not a long stretch to think of the process as working bidirectionaly, investiture could be used to change a persons identity. we see this with Hemalurgy and forgery for instance. In The emperors soul Shai tells us how Forgery works. Using a phsyical object (marks) and having to know the memoryand history of a object/person to change its identity. I believe when Shallan uses her drawings she literally is able to trim of a part of a persons identity and modify it. whenever she draws a person she has come in contact with she draws a positive aspect reaffirming and strengthening part of the person which was always there and undeveloped.In Yalb, Talakv and Gaz and her other guards (cant remember their names now ) she was drawing braveness and confidence and in likenesses that where different from the people that they had become. I believe when she shows these pictures and drawing to the people themselves, the idenitity within the drawing that shallan had cut and augmented and transformed instantly reaches out and rebinds with the orginal person. As Shai says when forging an object in the cognitive realm is how it is viewd and how it views itself and will always try an exist as a whole. In the novels whenever these peoples glance upon their drawings of themselves they always take a while like Gaz, Jasnah ect, this isnt them admiring the artwork this is the time which their souls are being repaired and changed with shallans transformation ability. when we last see Gaz in words of radiance he seems different and changed this could be due to shallans transformation seeping through his spiritual and cognative self and changing his outlook and self perspective. However i could be wrong as other theorys go and this could be a kandra in disguise.

So hey, I'm new here and I apologise in advance if this has been brought up/answered before. I was wondering, what with the localised magic systems on Sel, why is it that the Elantrians seem to retain their overall appearance and physical changes (e.g. Raoden being able to run faster than other humans etc.) when travelling to Teod, but not their specific powers? Similarly, the Dakhor monks don't just become "normal" when leaving Fjorden, but retain their... modifications? I actually have multiple questions about this. Is it possible that they could reach a certain distance from their homeland where even these changes would fade and they would revert to normal human beings? Or do you believe that they will stay the way they are? It seems, IMO, that the Shaod can only take someone in Arelon and one can only become Dakhor in Fjorden, but while the "activation" of these processes can only happen in a specific location, (at least some of) their effects are kept even if someone travels to another place. Similar to this is the case with Forton's potions, which I read (somewhere on this forum) are confirmed as somehow Invested, but are still effective outside his homeland. If this is the case (and I'm just wildly speculating here), if someone were to change themselves (or even an object?) via Soulstamp/Essence Mark and then travel to another country, would it hold? It's pretty clear from other examples that you would not be able to apply the stamp elsewhere, but would it be "rejected" once taken away from MaiPon? Of course I could be wildly wrong here but I wanted to ask what everyone's opinion on this is and whether or not Brandon has said anything about this that I've missed.

I think we all agree that the access to the Investiture is related to the Intent of the Shard which the magic belongs to. Examples: Surgebinding - bond and oaths, Allomancy - self-preservation (Snapping), Feruchemy - ruining yourself to later preserve, Hemalurgy - Ruining, Awakening - Endowing Breaths et cetera. Now, we don't know much about Sel systems. We suspect that Shaod takes those who are devoted to something and that Dakhor is related to domination. What about Forgery? Shai states anyone could do it, but it requires long studies... And that's it! You have to be really devoted to spend many years learning and studying and if you are enough devoted, you gain Forgery! That's kind of self-fulfilling mechanism - what allows you to use Forgery is what you need to be to learn it. Anyone devoted enough can be a Forger and to become a Forger you need to be really devoted. I also suspected that rewriting Spiritual Aspect is kind of forcible act, so it can be linked to Dominion, but I feel I'm grasping at straws here.

This is mostly just a bunch of speculation about the possible ways forgery works. But basically, the question is, when forging something, what qualifies as a single object? What if you had a box with something inside of it. If you soul stamped the box, could you alter the contents? Or what if one of the heritage faction's forged vases had it's handle broken off. Would the forgery come undone? The vases state in to pieces is certainly believable since you saw it break... Or what if there were too completely different objects, but you really strongly associated them together? Could you soul stamp one and effect both? What counts as a "single object" is a bit arbitrary given that any given object is just a bunch of atoms stuck together and the unity of a given material is relative (for example a table which Shai forged was probably made out of different pieces of wood). And if you could place your soul stamp onto one thing and effect a different object... This makes soul forgery a lot more powerful. Forging two "objects" with one stamp would probably be extremely difficult, since you would have to view them as a single object... But again, what constitutes a single object is sort of a blurry line, so the potential is still significant.

Hi All, First theory (YAY!) so let's dig in. I'm very much obsessed with Hoid. What is he doing on the Shardworlds, what does he want, what's his ties to the current (and past) shardholders and what Investiture does he hold. I'll start off with what I've discovered in my readings and then run into my theory. Note: My theory is central to the Chronology of the Cosmere and knowledge of all Cosmere books. As I mentioned, this theory is based on documentation from all books so careful for spoilers for all Cosmere books. On that note, I'm just going to spoiler tag the whole post Thanks for reading, I know this was fairly long. Let me know your thoughts

Disclaimer: The following is primarily speculation and not particularly well researched. It was simply a thought that turned into a few paragraphs. Feel free to correct, comment, and point out similar theories. The Cognitive Realm is a realm filled with people's perceptions, is it not? And the Dor is stuck there, right? Is the Dor more connected to people's actual Spiritual connection to an ideal of a country, or is it more connected to their perception of who they are and where they are? If the latter is so, then perhaps this is why each realm has "evolved" a magic system with different effects, since the Dor, while not bound to each country, perceives itself as belonging to different areas. Perhaps there is a Cognitive sentience to each country, that is, it is so strongly seen as its own place, that it has a mind of its own. Now this allows for each Dominion to see itself uniquely from each other Dominion and each one attracts parts of the Dor. I can imagine whorls of Investiture clumping around each Dominion's hub. Perhaps MaiPon has a weaker Cognitive identity, and as such, attracts less of the Dor, and has a less Investiture-intense magic system. (There are many WoBs that say that Forged objects are minimally invested.) Arelon, on the other hand, has a strong cultural and national identity (why Teod is included, I don't know), leading to more Investiture from the Dor, and the powerful, Investiture-rich AonDor. A possible result of this: If a nation, such as Duladel, is destroyed both nationally and culturally, then the Dor could no longer find any "Duladen" minds to support a Duladen-specific manifestation of the Dor, which is why it is such a shame that no one knows the Jesker religion anymore and the Mysteries have (probably) become just occult practices. If the Duladen culture is replaced by Fjordell's culture, then perhaps the Dakhor monks' bone patterns would change to reflect the geographic expansion. Likewise, if you are in an area that is not seen as Arelish, then the AonDor's portion of the Dor does not extend that far. As you go further and further from the "hub", the lower the concentration of Investiture available for your specific geographic key is. This model would predict less powerful Aons in Teod, but much less effective in Fjordell, even if it is close by. This seems to be contradicted by the Dakhor monks being powerful everywhere, but I would argue that they are simply already Invested, and don't have to access the Dor nearly as often except when imbuing others of their order with power. Summary: I hypothesize that there are hub-like points for the Dor on Sel, centering around the strongest Cognitive cultural/national self-identity, leading to the compartmentalized magic system with many manifestations across the globe that we see today.

Hello there! I am new to the forums, having read vigorously and wanting to post something for a while. So I decided, hey, why not Forgery! It is one of the most interesting magic systems in my eyes. I have two main thoughts I wanted some opinion on. 1: if you had a very basic soul stamp with vague history that could describe any one that would make them have been, say, incinerated and burned to ash, would it hold for any period of time and if so, if the ash collapses could they revert to their previous state? And 2: if somehow a peice of hemalurgic metal with forgery 'in' it was put in a scadrian (let's say harmony is messing around) would they have to change the base design from MaiPon into their home city, or would the origional owners spiritual connection to MaiPon carry over? I would love to hear some ideas, and if anyone is interested in some more strange ideas, then I posted a personal list of epic God metals inspired by the thread about it on there. Bye!

I know that forgery doesn't work on ralkalest but I was wondering if a forger could make a stamp out of it. It's been said that the actual material used to make a stamp doesn't matter (although some materials are better because they can be carved more exactly.

Draft 1: Forging The Spiritweb Forgive me for length, it is long, and hopefully complete. Disclaimer Let's begin by describing... The Nature of Investiture: Next, what is the spirit web? According to Cannon, lacking a better defenition than this, I have provided my own. (there is another descriptive quote under the topic of Hemelurgy, below) The Spirt-Web, is the sum total of all physical, emotional, cognitive, spiritual, and other ties a person object or thing have to other people objects or things. The comparison to a physical web might be useful for many purposes. For a person, This Web defines who they are. To start our analogy, there will be several strands beginning at the center (the person in question) and extending outward, linking to past events, future hopes, current desires, descriptive attributes, and other details that accurately depict the SOUL of the person to whome this spirit web happens to belong. In addition to these, there will be many additional strands. Some of these additional strands will link to people, or ideas to which this person is familiar. There will be strands that connect one attirbute this person has attained, with others. Memories will form, Etcetera, etcetera. So far, this explains (sort-of) why the Spirit Web is approximately equal to the SOUL, as far as practical discussion is concerned. But what about mystical abilities? Yes, every mystical ability described in the Cosmere uses the spiritweb. Every mystical ability a given person has will either have it's own section of the spiritweb describing its function, or will utilize some pre-existing part of the web that they individually, or that all people possess. A Note on sDNA

Hello, and welcome back to the madhouse. EDIT: Start on the second post if you want to follow a completely unrelated (yet still more intelligible and possibly more interesting) discussion about the nature of the spiritweb. -Start off on this whole other thread if you want a much more succinct version of the points made on this one, as well as much more evidence that came out after I posted this original thread. I do plan on a more comprehensive expansion to the MEC based on TES, but this is a bit of a side-jaunt that I think it's valuable to have. Aside about previous theories: First of all, a bit of a disclaimer. While this idea has been bouncing around in my head for awhile now, and I've even posted a few disparate thoughts on it, Nepene was the first one to get anything of this form down on paper. I'm pulling a bit of a Leibniz to his Newton, then. Nepene had some good ideas, but I think his terminology and/or focus was a bit off, and his thread got seriously derailed by unnecessary discussion of Brandon's spirituality. I tried to redirect Nepene towards Platonism, but alas, 'twas not to be. That being the case, I'm now posting my alternate view on how "Forms" (Nepene's "Archetypes") work in the Cosmere, based primarily on my understanding of Platonism and the Spiritual Realm rather than Jung and the Cognitive. I have this alternate focus because Brandon referenced Jung as a bit of a one-off on how the Parshendis' songs work; this may well be interesting and lead to some useful conclusions about Realmatics, but I don't think Spiritual Archetypes follow from it. On the other hand, Brandon has explicitly stated that Realmatics is "based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'", and we know from Shai that the "Window" Form and others like it exist in the Spiritual Realm. And, obviously, me being me, I will be going into absurd depth. However, I do acknowledge that Nepene has priority as to the rough outlines of the importance and nature of Forms/Archetypes. P.S. Also, as it turns out, I kind of took a right turn at Albuquerque, and shot off into crazy-land. I'd intended to just lay out some general outlines for how Forms would work, but that was apparently too easy (and short), so I (unconsciously) decided to tackle almost the entirety of Forging as well. Looking at Nepene's thread, I think we split off fairly sharply in focus, so there isn't too much overlap (although, incidentally, I still think he's wrong on his impacts over there ). Background: Awhile ago, I posted a thread postulating that spren work by accessing "Forms" stored in the Spiritual Realm. Here is the main evidence I based it on: Basic Theory: sForms Basic Realmatics, Gaotona Emulating Ashraven, and Human Forgery in general: Plausibility "Calculation": Strength, Scope of Effect, and Inertia Role of Cognitive Aspects: Closing: Wow, that was longer than intended, and went some places I didn't expect. Sorry about that. Anyone want to suggest a TL;DR for me to throw in? There are a few chinks to be filled in in order to have a proper MEC-response to TES, but I got more of my thoughts down than I meant to. Sorry about that too. Discuss, permutate, criticize (immediately skip because of how long it is...). Have fun. P.S. Also, I acknowledge that there is a slight possibility that this thread is absurd. Either that or awesome. But that's how I roll. No middle ground for me. P.P.S Also also, this is slightly more TES-centric than I intended, but the implications flow to the rest of the Cosmere. EDIT: TL;DR: There exist a range of semi-independent "Forms" in the Spiritual Realm--created and maintained by the perceptions of living beings--the strength and reach of which are determined by the strength and reach of those who "believe" in any given Form. These Forms range from a weak, regional "our mayor is a mean guy" to strong, universal "Humans: they age." The "plausibility" of any Forgery is assessed in reference to these Forms, with each object having a certain number of connections to certain Forms based on its Cognitive identity (a table won't bother to connect with the Human form, I don't think, though it could without any real harm). When a Forgery is done, the network of Forms which are related to its target do a group "gut call" on whether and to what degree it is acceptable. Same on the level of individual souls, as in the case of Gaotona. Living beings kill off stamps because their Cognitive aspects actively fight against the external imposition of identity. Stamps do not replace original aspects, merely overlay them for a time. Also, just as an aside, I don't think a bunch of rocks in space without any observer will ever form a coherent Cognitive aspect as a singular being, so there can exist objects which, while Physically singular, are made up of a plurality of Cognitive aspects. EDIT 2: A bit more evidence. I hadn't recalled this quote until Nepene put it in his Cosmere 201 quote-bank: (WoK 711) While this is in-line with Vorinism's "everything is super-powered when you die" (farmers grow entire fields with a wave of their hands, etc.), and so might be religiously inspired, Ashir and Geranid seem to be pretty Realmatically knowledgeable, so I'll give them credit on this one. So a hint that "objects" in the Spiritual Realm are in "a state of ideals". EDIT 3: Significantly changed the Gaotona part, as well as moving stuff around. I had been waiting for someone to post a criticism before saying this, but apparently I scared everyone off, so I'll just put it down for posterity. EDIT 4: Threw in some extra stuff in the Cognitive section. EDIT 5 (01/04/2015): For what it's worth, plausibility does seem to be decided by Forms.

Greetings -- I attended Jordancon and was able to ask Brandon a few questions that didn't get the RAFO. I kept the questions very small and granular to try to get some information, since he seems to be giving fewer and fewer answers. Jordancon Signing (Paraphrased) April 11th, 2014 Q: Suppose you had a feruchemist that was also skilled in forgery. If they soul stamped themselves, would they normally be able to still use feruchemy, and if they were able to use feruchemy after a soul stamp would they be able to access their own metalminds. A: (Paraphrased): Brandon said that you could do so, but it would require jury rigging in order to make it work. Since the soul stamp overwrites the current spiritual aspect of a person. He then said that the accessing the metalminds would also require some amount of jury rigging. Q: If a feruchemist using an aluminum metalmind stored their identity to zero, then filled a coppermind with all of their knowledge, would another feruchemist with an identity set to zero be able to access the first feruchemist's coppermind? A (paraphrased): I'm not going to tell you a definite yes or no, this is something that needs to be saved for future books, but you are thinking along the correct lines about how identity works regarding feruchemists. ======= I know this isn't roshar-shattering news, but I figured granular information is better than RAFOs Regards, nalesean

It's occurred to me that a prepared Forger is a versatile Forger; namely, it would behoove anyone serious about Forgery to go through a large number of close encounters that could have seriously messed their body. Given these past events, which could have gone either way, an entirely intact forger chained to a wall by her foot, say, could easily craft a very simple soulstamp that says, essentially, "you know that time I almost got my foot cut off? Yeah, I did" and, ta da, you're free of the wall. Pop off the stamp and be about your day, citizen. You could rather easily arrange this by setting aside a single stress-filled day early in your career during which you risk everything that you might want to be disfigured/maimed at a later date. Put your hand under a guillotine that falls at an unknown time only a split second after an easy to miss "click" sound, or your arm, or your foot or leg. Barely miss a poke to the eye or burn to the face through similar circumstances. Later, you could Forge a fairly simple and plausible scenario where you were distracted at a crucial moment and so got hit by whatever nastiness you want to get hit by. So far as actual plausibility goes, this might not cut it (har har), due to how much control the Forger, who most likely very much does not want to be maimed, has over the situation. On a less universally useful note, then, any Forger who has genuinely risked their face or limbs could still quite easily capitalize on that risk on a later date. Such simple circumstances are nice because they allow exceptionally simple soulstamps to "actualize", allowing for Forging in dire circumstances for disguise and/or escape without needing an entire alternate personality like Shai's beggar persona. Thoughts?

Interesting thought I had, Lerasium is part of Preservation and it writes things specifically to a person's spirit web. Forgery works in a similar method only on the conceptual side right? I was thinking what if a person (Hoid) turned it into an essence mark. Could he use it to forge lasting changes to person's spirit web without actually using up the bead? I know the bead is probably small but if you say hammered it flat onto something to give it some extra shape you could then etch whatever forgery you want into it. it might explain why Hoid was playing around in Emperor's Soul.

I had a quick scout of the forum, and couldn't find anything related to this, so I thought I'd give it a shot. For starters, all Forgery Shai performs includes something that appears like MaiPon (her homeland) as its basic form. This is in the same way that the Elantrians have the basic lines that make up their Arelon (their homeland) as the basic form of their work. So it is this basic symbology - the shape of their homeland - which I would be assuming all magic on Sel includes. Then there is this quote from Brandon and Viper from this thread. The first thing I would be suggesting from this is that the magic would regionally-drawn. What I mean by this is that it is drawn from a particular country - nation - according to the basic symbol used in the magic form (in the case of both AonDor and Forgery, drawn/stamped). This would mean that using Arelon as the base form instead of MaiPon would make the power for Forgery drawn in Arelon, meaning that the Forgery would be stronger in Arelon than using the base form of MaiPon. This got me thinking of why on earth the shape of a nation would be important to a magic system (a nation to me is a group of individuals living in an area of land) ie. Why would we draw Arelon, and not half of Arelon and half of the nation next to it? Or just half of Arelon - or my proof that this cannot be done - all of Arelon except the area where the scar is. Which really, I believe is the point. These base forms - the reason that it is important for it to be a nation rather than just an area of land - is due to peoples understanding of the invisible boundaries that make nations - the cognitive aspect of a nation as it were - what the nation believes it is, due to what the people of that nation believe it is. eg. The people of Arelon believe that their nation runs from here to here and includes Elantris, the scar etc. So that is what must be drawn - as a whole - to draw magic from that area. My reasoning behind it not just being having to use the base form of an area of land is due to the scar itself. If they just needed to include major landmarks from the area they were drawing the power from, excluding the scar would not have mattered - because the magic system would have just drawn it from all the land, exuding the area where the scar was - which is where the cognitive identity of the land as a nation comes into play. That probably wasn't very well worded, but to me makes sense. What do people think?