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Found 26 results

  1. So I was thinking about this. When the false desolation occurs, it is possible that Nale was mad enough at this point to not recognize that an Unmade was the reason that the Parshendi were getting forms of power (after all, this was the first time, an Unmade was responsible for this). He might have considered it to be another desolation. Shortly after this, the Radiants gave up their shards (The Recreance) and then there was a prolonged period without any desolation until the events of Oathbringer. Perhaps by Nale's insane logic, he felt the absence of Radiants meant that the real cycle of desolation was broken. This could be the reason why he started hunting down Radiants to prevent them from growing in number again. Does this theory make any sense or are there holes in my logic? Does that line of thinking make sense?
  2. So in Talenel's chapter in WoR, he says they'll soulcast blocks of bronze to cast into weapons and armor. Then, in Oathbringer, in the first vision Dalinar includes Jasnah and Navani in, they comment on how the weapons are not iron or steel. The reason given for the bronze rather than the steel is that casting is easier than forging. While that would normally be true, in a world of soulcasters, I don't understand why they don't form weapons and armor out of some other metal and then soulcast it into steel. Is that addressed somewhere that I'm not remembering? My thinking is that bronze is an alloy consisting of just metal while steel includes non-metallic elements. In theory, this would mean it would require the use of multiple essences to be possible. Can they only soulcast one essence at a time? That doesn't explain not using iron. And in case anyone is confused, "casting" refers to forming molten metal in molds as opposed to the beating heated metal into shape that is "forging". It's not talking about soulcasting.
  3. Lunchbreak re-read of the Prelude in WoK Kalak thinks this was one of the worst desolations. Yet 9 of the 10 heralds survived. Does anyone think it's possible that Odium somehow gave orders to his army to avoid killing the Heralds this time? Maybe he brokem them enough to expect they would leave the Pact Taln was still killed. Maybe his penchant for lost causes was too much to avoid. Maybe Odium intentionally wanted time alone to break the only unbroken Herald. Is Ishar just crazy now or could he have broken enough to be in Odium's pocket back then, suggesting that leaving Taln would be enough? Essentially, is it possible the "Last" Desolation was a long con by Odium rather than a fortunate happenstance of the only Herald able to hold being the one to go back
  4. I'm curious which side people would choose, Mankind or the Singers?
  5. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  6. Hello everyone. While talking with some other people recently, I hit on an idea that I think explains humanity's success in their first attack against the Singers. To set the stage, humanity at this point is living in Shinovar, does not have Surgebinding, and is probably less populous than the Singers. How is humanity so successful then, that the Singers feel the need to ally with Odium and create the Fused to fight back? Where does this power that allowed the initial conflicts go? I believe that the answer to both questions is that humanity still had access to Surges... from the diseases of Ashyn. 1) Ashyn's Investiture accesses Surges, and is disease based. This point is the keystone of the whole theory, so first let's look at some WoBs. This WoB vaguely details the mechanics of Ashyn's Investiture. Ashyn's powers are accessed when you grow ill, and they go away when you get better. Additionally we have this WoB. These two things together imply that catching a disease let you access the Surges, in slightly different forms than Radiants currently can. I think we can make a safe assumption that anyone with these diseases is going to be capable of similar feats to those we've see from our Radiants. This brings us to point number two. 2) The Surges allowed humanity the ability to expand aggressively So when humanity arrived on Roshar from Ashyn, they might have had some of these diseases among their population. Humans stayed in Shinovar long enough for some sembalance of peace to exist between Singer and human. However, at some point humanity aggressively expanded, to the point that every major Singer city was captured. Every Dawncity is likely a former Singer capital. How did humanity do this? The Elia Steele gives us a hint: So humanity was using Surges. The problem with this is that the nahel bond could not have existed at this point. The nahel bond mimics the Honorblades, and the Honorblades did not come into existence until the Fused came into existence, which had to have been after this initial aggressive expansion. So how was humanity using the Surges? The diseases of Ashyn. Where did these diseases go, then? Well... 3) The extra Investiture from repeated exposure to Stormlight made humanity too disease resistant Humans expanded aggressively, and then settled in Singer territories, probably very confident in their ability to hold on to their gains. Of course we know that they didn't, so what changed? Humans began to become Invested by the background Investiture of the storms. Every so often, humanity gets bombarded by large amounts of free floating Investiture. Unlike any native life form on Roshar, it has no way to express itself, so in the case of humans it just makes humanity as a whole healthier, and more resistant to disease. This WoB seems to back up this theory: So humanity becomes more disease resistant, the Ashyn diseases start dying off. This leads us to the Second Desolation. Somehow, the Singer have recovered their numbers, and in addition have made a bargain with Odium to create the Fused, the Regals, and access Surges. This puts humanity on the defensive, and requires the Oathpact and eventually the Radiants to give humanity relatively even footing. Conclusion: I think I've made a pretty good argument for the timeline of the first two conflicts between humanity and the Singers. I've left out any mention of Urithuru, because I don't know how it fits in yet. I am also not really sure how the Girl Who Looked Up fits in, unless she somehow allowed stormlight to inundate the Shinovar region like it does the rest of the world. Anyway, would like to hear people's thoughts.
  7. My read on this is that the Heralds tap out of torture time in Damnation/Braise then come to Roshar, presumably ahead of the Unmade to train new radiants. Then the Unmade come back, somehow power up the parsh (via BAM? void spren?) and fight the humans. Then, do the humans win when they defeat Odium's champion? Does that mean in the past? 'What does a win mean as far as what happens to the non-humans? (Not the wildlife) If Odium's champion loses, and all the Heralds are killed, do all the Unmade go back to Braise? Parsh warriors too? Or just the Heralds? Maybe the Unmade don't all die, they just jump to the Cognitive realm and then do the electric slide over to Braise? If the Unmade are cognitive shadows, some are less sapient and can be in the physical realm without a body/vessel and others more aware and sapient who need a body/vessel to operate (I guess they have all been seen on Roshar in "spren" form, just seems some are smaller versions of themselves as seen on Roshar vs larger versions as seen in the Cognitive realm, I'm talking more avl out being able to use powers, their form of void lashings, etc). Is Damnation in the cognitive realm? Because the Heralds are porting in their bodies, they aren't cognitive shadows. They are akin to worldhoppers, though a forced transfer rather than voluntary, but moving at the time of death and somehow when they tap out from Braise to Roshar. This seems to be predicated on the deal between the Heralds, Honor and Odium (and maybe Cultivation). But for the Heralds, is it a forced trip from spot a, to the cognitive realm, to spot b? T'aln certainly wasn't in any condition to wander through the cognitive realm. Kinda picturing Braise spren bouncers bodily dragging him through and then giving him a heave ho through a portal. And what about the parsh warriors/people? Since this is not a true desolation, we don't really know what's up with the "leftovers"; the parshendi/Listeners and parshmen. If the true desolation was ended, would the parsh people have left Roshar? Would they be devolved? If there was a true end to the last desolation, and if the parsh warriors of old were taken off world, would the current Listeners and parshmen have been affected (again, if the parsh get taken offworld) since they were either without spren, in dullform, or somehow affected by BAM's imprisonment and either voidsprenless, depowered, spiritually lobotomized, tweased, or had their Connection severed? Also, we know the Everstorm is new, so how did the Parsh get powered up back then in past desolations? Just BAM empowering? Did they have voidspren (seems likely), and then when Odium lost, what happened? The voidspren got flushed? The actual vessels/people/parsh went off world? arg!!!!!
  8. Why Odium needs to kill all humans to leave Greater Roshar has bugged me since I joined the Shard in 2014. This is my third or fourth attempt to answer that question. Theory Honor has bound Odium’s Investiture into the “hearts of men.” Odium must destroy Roshar’s human population to free himself from Greater Roshar and recapture his trapped Investiture. Analysis 1. I begin with @ROSHtaFARian2.0's interesting post about Ashyn and its bacteria-based magic. ROSHtaFARian2.0 concludes that magic comes from Honor and Cultivation, but others in that thread rightly (IMO) point out Odium was the god who came with humans to Roshar. This also fits the WoB that Odium came to Roshar after Honor and Cultivation. 2. A bacteria-based magic system comports with my theory of Odium’s magic. IMO, Odium breaks bonds to power his magic. Bacteria breaks down the human body. I think Odium Invested Ashyn’s bacteria to grant magic to Ashyn humans. 3. As ROSHtaFARian2.0 says, bacteria-based magic wouldn’t work on Roshar. Humans came there without magic. But they did come with Odium-Invested bacteria infecting their bodies. 4. I think Honor bound Odium’s Investiture to humans at some point, perhaps immediately on their arrival? Maybe he integrated the Invested bacteria into their bodies? Unclear. 5. This may explain why there are no Honor/Cultivation “Hatespren.” Human emotions spawn all kinds of spren, but we never see Hatespren, only Voidspren that personify Singer emotions. This seems odd to me. Perhaps human hate is internalized into Odium’s Investiture? That bit of Odium Investiture may also explain why Roshar’s humans are incorrigibly fractious.
  9. Some pre-publication observations and predictions: Spren Wars I think Syl and the yellow-white spren Yixli both personify the “protection” ideal. Yixli shepherds the listeners to Revolar, warns them of Kaladin, and then recommends Kaladin (Mr. Protection himself) to other listeners. Yixli’s spren type overflies the crowds and inspects buildings, like a police force. But Yixli appears to be a stone spren. I interpret this to mean listeners personify stone as “protection,” not the wind like humans do. This represents a different cultural perspective and relationship with their environment. Just as humans enslaved the listeners, I think human ideas (personified as spren) banished listener ideas (also personified as spren) from Roshar’s subastral (its place in the Cognitive Realm) to Braize’s. Brandon’s message: Colonization eradicates native cultures. Brandon says Braize is “like a prison.” Odium’s Invested and “captive” there. I think Braize is also a prison for the listener spren. IMO, the Oathpact bars the Cognitive Realm bridge between Roshar and Braize. When the Herald’s “break,” listener spren pour across the bridge; then into Roshar’s Physical Realm as listeners (and other lifeforms) assume their symbiotic forms. I bet Braize’s subastral holds gemstones instead of glass beads. IMO, that’s how listeners perceive ideas. Re-Shephir and Taln This reminds me of Taln left behind in Damnation while the other Heralds escaped. (I may have missed someone else first suggesting this.) It parallels the WoK Chapter 54 Epigraph’s death rattle: Posters think this epigraph refers to Taln (and it may). But what if it refers to Re-Shephir? It says the burdens of nine, not ten. Taln bears the burdens of ten, since he’s part of the Oathpact. Maybe Re-Shephir says, “Almighty, release me,” because she was glued to Urithiru’s Stormlightning Rod by massive amounts of Stormlight? Other questions: What were the Unmade doing in Urithiru’s basement when Desolation ended? Could this be the same moment as the Heralds’ Aharietiam “triumph?” Why weren’t the Heralds and Unmade fighting each other? Was Re-Shephir abandoned because Taln was abandoned? The Fused I’ve said for a long time that Odium’s magic can’t form bonds. Instead, Odium severs Connections. I think the Fused prove this. IMO, voidspren act like viruses and change the Spiritual DNA of a target spren. The “infused” voidspren mutates the “natural” spren, giving Odium control of the natural spren’s bonded host. The voidspren itself doesn’t bond the host. I think Syl hissed at the Fused-Spren because she sensed the corrupted natural spren that’s part of it. If the Fused can direct Odium’s power without a bond, then bonds can’t be Roshar’s Focus. (Sorry, @Calderis.) “Fusion” may turn out to be a form of bond, but the word implies a full joining, a union, not merely a symbiotic Connection. Gavilar’s Sphere @Pagerunner and others view Chapter 31 as proving Gavilar’s Sphere holds only Voidlight and not an Unmade. I think the Sphere holds both. Fabrial gemstones hold both Stormlight and a spren. I think this type of parallelism is important and intentional. I continue to believe there must be an “Everstormfather.” Just as the Stormfather personifies the highstorms and distributes Stormlight, the Everstormfather is a giant Odium spren that personifies the Everstorm and distributes Voidlight. (I agree the Everstorm is Odium’s Rosharan perpendicularity.) The Fused infuse themselves with (IMO) bond-breaking Voidlight. The Fused use the energy from their internal broken bonds to summon the Surges. I think the Urithiru Fused looks wasted and incomplete because his body breaks down to make his magic. The Origin As a total guess, I think the Origin may be the entrance to the Cognitive Realm bridge between Roshar and Yolen. Yolen is the “origin.” I’m unsure how this squares with our knowledge of perpendicularities, but I’ll throw this possibility out there…
  10. I theorize the Heralds are humankind’s personification of the Divine Attributes. Those Ideals – the Heralds in Shadesmar spren form – IMO fend off Odium at the place Roshar’s and Braize’s subastrals meet. Judging by the Shadesmar map, I think Roshar is a major Shadesmar crossroads. I suspect Braize, the farthest planet of Greater Roshar, has only one Shadesmar passage back into the main channels – the planet Roshar. Somehow Odium is boxed in on Braize. The Oathpact binds the Heralds to stand at Roshar’s gates and keep Odium out. Like the Returned, which Brandon says is the same magic system, I think Honorblades are splinters bound to the Heraldic Ideals. On Roshar, alignment with an Ideal determines the strength of the bond that gives power. I think this must be true of Heralds, since spren modeled the KR on the Heralds. IMO, as humankind’s belief in the Heraldic Ideals strengthens, the bond between the Honorblades and Heralds also strengthens, increasing Heraldic power. As belief fades, the bond – and the Heralds’ power – weakens. This may explain the Sons of Honor’s actions (with reverse causation). I believe Odium attacks the Heralds’ strength in two ways. First, he seeks to undermine human belief in the Heraldic ideals. Second, he directly assaults those Ideals in their spren form. IMO, Odium’s power severs bonds. That what hate does – it generates power but consumes you. Odium’s power tries to sever the weakened Ideals from their bond with Honor. IMO, the Heralds’ torture is Odium’s bond-severing power melting through their bonds. Over time, Odium’s power breaks the Herald’s bonds. Desolation spills into Roshar. The Heralds cry havoc, and war comes to the Physical Realm.
  11. We now tentatively know the approximate locations of Urithiru and all ten Oathgates. I've marked them with blue circles on this map. (I'm guessing with the Aimian one.) You might have noticed that I also marked off a large area in red. This huge area is conspicuously devoid of Oathgates. I call it the Oathgate Deadzone. The central and northern parts of this region are farther from an Oathgate than any other point on the Rosharan landmass. These are the areas which, in the event of a voidbringer attack, would take the longest to receive Radiant assistance. I've got to wonder if there's a reason behind this. The simplest explanation is that this region had the least need for Oathgate-based military aid. Based on the present-day distribution of Shardblades, we might conjecture that Alethela and Valhav, which made up most of the Deadzone in the Silver Kingdoms era, were very strong countries, with lots of combat-ready Radiants among their populations. But if I accepted that explanation, I could hardly justify an ominous name like "the Oathgate Deadzone." So maybe there's another explanation for it. When I think of the old Desolations, I see the Heralds and Radiants spearheading a coordinated global defense. Voidbringers appear somewhere, and within the hour there are Elsecallers and Willshapers on the scene, doing reconnaissance. Within days there'll be a fighting force of Windrunners and Skybreakers, drawing the battle lines and probing the enemy's defenses. And then, a week or two after the initial enemy incursion, the bulk of our forces arrive -- huge armies of radiants, squires, and ordinary soldiers, marched in from the nearest Oathgate. Except in the Deadzone. There, with all the Oathgates far away, the Radiants' response time suffers. The enemy has more time to rally, to dig in, to fortify their position, and be ready for battle. This means the Deadzone is where the Radiants (and humankind in general) are weakest. It's a hole in their global defense network. It's a weakness the enemy can and will exploit. If the Radiants were smart, they would have filled in this gap by building an Oathgate out there, perhaps in modern day Elanar or Northgrip. So why didn't they? Is it because they could rely on local Alethi and Vedens protecting themselves? Or is there a more sinister, catastrophic reason? Well, you know what just happens to be in the Deadzone? The Horneater Peaks. And what's in the Horneater peaks? A shardpool. The only known stationary perpendicularity on Roshar. And I don't think that's a coincidence. I think... if I was sending an army of monsters to invade Roshar, I'd send that army through Shadesmar. And the easiest way to get them into the physical realm is through that perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks. This is my theory. Odium's unseen voidbringer hordes will arrive en masse through that shardpool. The Horneater peaks are Ground Zero for every desolation. The Radiants probably tried to set up an oathgate-base in the area, but it was always overrun and destroyed early in the desolation. The voidbringers make it their priority to secure their LZ by rapidly and decisively taking control of the region. Expect shock troops. Expect death. From there, they expand outward until Radiant resistance is strong enough to push back. Then a brutal war of attrition begins, with each side trying to cripple the other using behind-enemy-lines surgical strikes -- which is what we've seen in Dalinar's visions. The Oathgate Deadzone is actually enemy territory. Voidbringer Central. Mordor. It always has been, and it's about to be again. And when the monsters of the voidbringer vanguard pour out of the Horneater Oceans, eager to establish their home base, they will not be happy to find a whole human culture camping out around their portal. If the Horneaters don't evacuate their mountains in a hurry, they're about to be wiped out. Hence my clickbait thread title. If that's not bad enough, Hearthstone is also inside the Deadzone. And I think House Davar's estate is as well. And so is Herdaz, and potentially hundreds of Lopen's cousins. The only tangible proof I could find is this: Herdazians and Horneaters both make their homes inside the Deadzone. The two human races descended from Listeners just happen to live inside the region with the worst Oathgate service. Their presence suggests this region was once home to large Listener populations, which I think would confirm my logic: Oathgates, no; Voidbringers, yes. Throw in a perpendicularity, and it can't all be a coincidence, can it? It can, obviously. But maybe it's not! This might be the reason the Alethi and Vedens are so warlike. Their ancestors were living on the front lines. They were the first line of defense when a desolation came, and the last ones fighting to retake their lost territory as it drew to a close. If this theory is at all correct, I think we can expect so see confirmation pretty soon. I predict that we'll soon hear about some very unusual parshman activity in Vedenar. (This part has Oathbringer spoilers.) Either way, I bet we'll know before book 4. Thoughts?
  12. The Desolation starts when Taln cries uncle, right? But spren started bonding people again years before he showed up. How did they know he was going to crack soon?
  13. This is a theory I've been thinking about in regards to the desolation that we're about to see in the upcoming SA books and how it differs from the previous desolations that have occurred on Roshar in the past. At the end of WoR, Hoid and Jasnah have a conversation about the desolation and the everstorm. Hoid mentions that the everstorm is going to transform the parshmen into voidbringers, to which Jasnah replied that it didn't happen that way in the past. So I'm trying to speculate as to why that is. We, sort of, know that desolations occurred when the Heralds broke under the torture they were forced to endure in damnation and returned to Roshar. Here are the WoB where this is discussed: AhoyMatey Is a Desolation caused when a Herald breaks under torture? Brandon Sanderson This person is asking the right kinds of questions. and: Question What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. Brandon Sanderson Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end. So something about the Heralds leaving "damnation" also allowed the voidbringers to come to Roshar (I won't open the can of worms of why or how but this seems pretty reasonable). So now that Taln has been broken and returned to Roshar, the Final Desolation has arrived. However, getting back to my point, it's different this time. My theory is that it's different this time because the parshmen are already inhabitants of Roshar. I think that in the past the voidbringers arrived on Roshar during the desolation, then were driven out by the Heralds and Knights Radiant. At the end of the supposed last desolation, the parshmen were subjugated rather then driven out of Roshar. So rather than the oathpact physically holding back the voidbringers, it had been preventing voidspren, as splinters of Odium, from crossing from the Cognitive realm into physical Roshar. When Taln broke and returned to Roshar, this block was removed, which I think is why the Stormfather tells Eshonai that he can't stop her transformation. So the Everstorm brings with it the voidspren and will transform parshmen where as previously the desolations occurred when the voidbringers themselves returned to Roshar. Sidenote: some question I would like to ask Brandon is whether parshmen or listeners inhabited Roshar between desolations and if Eshonai would have been able to bond to the stormspren before Taln arrived on Roshar.
  14. If you look at the Roshar solar system and the planet in the Arcanum Unbounded, you will see that two of the three moons of Roshar share a tangential colliding orbit. I believe that when the two moons, with shared orbits, near each other and the third moon aligns, the impact on the planet is substantial. This impact could cause the desolations every 4000+ years, ripping the planet apart.
  15. The time of the Return, the Desolation, is near at hand. We must prepare. You will have forgotten much, following the destruction of the times past. -Taln You all know the story. A desolation approaches, and the Heralds appear to prepare mankind for surviving it. I'm curious as to what they actually taught that helped to keep man alive before the KR were founded. They saw enough value to keep teaching it, and humanity managed to survive each time (somewhat) Name Title Teaching Attributes Order Jezrien Herald of Kings Leadership Protecting/Leading Windrunners Nalan Herald of Justice ??^ Just/Confident Skybreakers Chana ?? ?? Brave/Obedient Dustbringers Vedel Herald of Healing Train Surgeons Loving/Healing Edgedancers Paliah ?? ?? Learned/Giving Truthwatchers Shalash Herald of Beauty ?? Creativity/Honesty Lightweavers Battar ?? ?? Wisdom/Care Elsecallers Kalak ?? How to cast bronze* Resolute/builder Willshapers Talenel Herald of War Train Soldiers Dependable/Resourceful Stonewards Ishar Herald of Luck ??** Pious/Guiding Bondsmiths There are a fair number of blank spaces. The Heraldic Titles appear to fit with what they teach, but maybe not always. I also placed each Herald's respective attributes and KR Order for completeness, in case they can help make connections. Notes: ^ Nalan takes "extreme" care to adhere to the law, perhaps he trains people in enforcing law/discipline? * Taln wishes he had the time to teach them steel, so I assume Kalak knows of many materials ** Taln mentions that Ishar spoke of a way to keep information from being lost between Desolations Sources: Herald Chart Circumflex ^ Asterisks * Edits: First, I hereby apologize to phone users for the big table, I wanted to appear organized. Second, I finally made my first official topic! Third, any/all opinions or criticism are welcome.
  16. Hi everyone! I've been a lurker for quite a long time on these forums and finally decided to contribute to the awesome discussion here. I searched the forums and nobody seemed to have brought this topic up yet. I was re-reading WoK for the release of Words of Radiance and noticed something really interesting. After the hunting party kills the chasmfiend, Dalinar is observing the body and notices some spren rising from its body. I'm going to quote the passage (from chapter 15) because it's so easy to miss: So, there are spren that look like smoke that leave the chasmfiend's (or any greatshell's) body after it dies. Then reading Dalinar vision a few chapters later I come across this: The "Midnight Essences," which are not Voidbringers but are a harbinger of the coming Desolation, seem to be filled almost entirely by smoke. A couple more things: Also, a picture that Jasnah found of a Voidbringer looks suspiciously like a chasmfiend, and even though Dalinar dismisses the rendering, I can't believe that's all there is to it. Spoiler from Words of Radiance: My theory from all of this is that smoke is a sign of Odiom's investiture in Roshar. The chasmfiends greatshells are a leftover from the last Desolation, and there is still a residual amount of Investiture left over that leaves when the chasmfiend greatshell is killed. When the next Desolation comes, Odium or will take over and control it. I had a whole 'nother tie in with deathspren and red eyes, but this is long enough as it is. What do you guys think? Edit: Changed chasmfiend to greatshell
  17. “And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row.” - Bob Dylan, “Desolation Row” THIS POST IS INTERPRETATION AND SPECULATION. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. Desolations are the critical narrative element of SLA, even more than the Highstorms Brandon based on Jupiter’s Great Red Spot. What are they, what causes them, what is their purpose, how do they begin, how do they end? I made an earlier attempt to answer and will now try again. Brandon seems fascinated by the question he has Kaladin ask: “Can you kill to protect?” Vin says that’s humankind’s nature: “Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.” (HoA, Tor Softcover, p. 711.) This theme informs my interpretation of Desolations. Because Desolations are so central, a proper exposition requires background and context. I’ve written a number of posts to provide this context, some of which are controversial. To summarize before proceeding: “The Origin of the Cosmere” presents my view that all Cosmere magic begins in the Cognitive Realm with a cognitive command of some sort. I later described unconscious healing as an example of the general rule. “The Shattering” asserts that Adonalsium was Shattered vertically, along the fault lines of each mandate (intent), rather than horizontally across the spectrum of powers. IOW, each Shard has the same powers; the only difference from Shard to Shard lying in the powers’ expression through each mandate. I identify each known “Mandate.” Honor is “Relationships.” Cultivation is “Survival.” Odium is “Aggression.” I’m not wedded to any of these words, although I’m comfortable with the latter two. I do think “Relationships” fits Honor both conceptually and in how I think Honor expresses his power, but the word itself stinks. I’m open to suggestions on that one… I describe the nature of spren and why Radiant spren enter the Physical Realm with sentience only and not sapience until they bond. I assert that Honor made the souls of the Heralds into “identity spren” implanted in the Honorblades. That post also claims the Honorblades are “Voidbinding fabrials” that cause the Heralds’ “torture.” Later I conclude that the Heralds’ souls/identity spren must bond with the Stone Shamans when they emerge in advance of a Desolation. I argue that the Nightwatcher is a cognitive prison for Odium, part of how he is entrapped on Roshar. I also argue that Stormlight consists of the investiture of all three Shards forged by the Honorblades, another part of his prison. And I argue that in Shadesmar thoughts can kill. I believe a Shard’s best and easiest tactic to kill another Shard is to destroy its mind, its ability to direct its power. I believe that’s what Odium did when he splintered Dominion, Devotion and Honor. I am still developing this argument. Below is a summary of my theory of Desolations, without textual citation. Originally this summary was the introduction of a longer essay. Unfortunately (fortunately?), I’ve now grown too weary to write it. But I didn’t want to deprive you folks of your regular target practice. So here it is, in bare form, weaving together the ideas generated in the above-cited posts. What Desolations are the wars between Honor/Cultivation surrogates and Odium surrogates. Voidbringers include anyone under Odium’s influence. That means listeners, thunderclasts, humans and others. I speculate Odium spren resurrect dead greatshells as thunderclasts and dead – and disturbed – listener remains as the “mindless” Unmade (so described by the Diagram). I’ve stated throughout my posts that Odium’s investiture doesn’t bond. How then does Odium exercise influence? WoB states Odium has found a “hole” to “pour” his investiture into (like Hamlet’s uncle poured poison into King Hamlet’s ear). This is different from actually bonding with the host. My analogy to explain the difference is this: place an electrode into an insect’s body. You can control the insect’s behavior through the electrode. But the electrode is never PART of the insect’s body. If you destroy the electrode, the insect is still an insect. But imagine instead you spliced genes into to the insect’s body, so the insect no longer is an insect. It is now whatever that combination causes this new entity to be – a Knight Radiant, perhaps. (Or a Greatshell or Ryshadium?) That’s the difference between “carrying” investiture and bonding with investiture. Odium can only cause the former. Why Desolations impair Odium’s capacity to free himself from Greater Roshar. Humans are more susceptible to Odium’s influence than native Rosharans and better serve Odium’s purposes. Honor and Cultivation periodically need to “prune” their numbers (and also destroy other Voidbringers). Who Odium began the cycle. He created war on other planets to drive humans to Roshar. (WoB confirms that “the races are more distinct [on Roshar] and rub each other the wrong way…”) Once there, they committed genocide against listeners, wreaking “Desolation” upon them. In order to fight Odium (and incidentally to protect the listeners), Honor offered the Oathpact to the Heralds: fight for Honor against Voidbringers, who then mostly included Odium-influenced humans. Otherwise, Honor would annihilate ALL of Roshar’s humans if necessary to defeat Odium. At some point, Odium figured out how to influence listeners, and the Desolations lost their racial character. During the Vorin period, the original nature of Desolations was ignored, forgotten or deliberately reversed. How Roshar’s Physical Realm gaseous investiture – Stormlight – consists of equal amounts of each Shard’s investiture. Desolations begin when an “investiture imbalance” develops in Stormlight. Spren count as investiture. Honor made each Herald’s soul into an “identity spren” residing in an Honorblade. The Honorblades both monitor and consume investiture. When the imbalance develops, the spren emerges and bonds with a Stone Shaman, current keepers of the Blades. That Shaman-now-Herald signals the Desolation. When the Desolation ends, the Honorblade consumes the Herald’s identity spren, returning it to the Blade. Otherwise, the presence of the identity spren itself causes an investiture imbalance that would lead to a new Desolation, as Brandon has said. Desolations end when the Honorblades sweep Roshar clean of unbonded investiture, including spren. I speculate that the Stone Shamans are the “current” Honorblade keepers because they are somehow related to Talenal, the one Herald who remained “true” (because he “died”). I don’t know whether Heralds had squires or whether some KR from each order attended to their patron Herald. But the Stone Shamans represent Talenal, whom Taravangian describes as the “Ancient of Stone” and whom Nale describes (IMO) as the “Spren of Stone.” IMO if other Heralds had “died,” there would be additional Keepers of the Blades. Next Unlike Desolations, the Everstorm IS of Odium’s design. It brings on the True Desolation (the destruction of most of Roshar) and the Night of Sorrows, when the Everstorm reaches Urithiru, blocking both daylight and Stormlight. That’s the basics. Before you take aim, please make sure you’re wearing your orange vests… AND HAPPY LABOR DAY WEEKEND!
  18. Here’s the bare bones of the argument: Kaladin compares the listeners’ honor with that of humans. Humans are hateful and always at war. Listeners won’t harm a disabled combatant. Roshar’s humans seem to reflect Earth’s diversity: dark-skinned, brown-skinned, light-skinned; blond, brown, red and black hair; every eye color. On a planet with only one continent and no impassable mountains? The result of such human variability is the problem of the “other” – someone who is different from us, who therefore is to be feared and hated. More hatred, just as Kaladin sees, hatred he himself feels towards “others” – the lighteyes. The presence of the listeners compounds the “other” problem. Other threads have noted that the listeners are like Native Americans, driven to the verge of extinction by rapacious Europeans. Whose interest is it to have men fight men and listeners, to try to create more hateful ideas, more opportunities to grow his power? Any Shards we know, Mr. Odium? And whose interest is it to eliminate such fighting, to eliminate the means by which hatred is spread, Mr. Honor? To kill all hateful humans in genocidal events called Desolations… HONOR has more reason than Odium to cause the Desolations, to wipe out humanity’s rapacity. Odium wants to create the Everstorm, the TRUE Desolation. But Odium would rather humans keep on killing each other until then. And if this “bare bones” argument hasn’t persuaded you yet, consider that “honor” is a conservative social force, often keeping people in their place because the ruling class thinks “it’s the right thing to do.” Honor’s mandate (intent) is Relationships – organization. (See my “Mandates of the Known Shards” post.) Honor prefers stable relationships rather than the turmoil of war fostered by Odium’s Aggression mandate. If hatred causes men to fight, Honor might well tear down an entire societal structure and start again. Hence, Desolations. Hence, little technological growth, arguably regression. Hence, stratified, reified societies. Blame Honor, not Odium.
  19. The desolations start when the heralds break under torture. What exactly does that mean? Personally, I think it means they lose their honour. They're the champions of Honour, and the Enemies of Odium. They 'break' when they feel hatred for their tormentors. They're meant to be an ideal that Humanity strives toward. So when Odium makes them feel hatred, he's allowed to attack Humanity.
  20. Odium, Desolations, Recreance and Gavilar. Why is being a surgebinder so dangerous? Why are they the force that ‘could’ return Desolations to this world? (To quote Nale) I've wondered this, I've turned it over, and one answer keeps coming back. I call, and it comes, again. I’ll elaborate on this in the body ahead, but I sincerely hope you’ll forgive my love of long speech, I hazard a guess that others have guessed as well. The Nature of Surgebinding, Stormlight is raw surges, raw energy, it is colourless but through its use the Radiants were able colour it, and make use of surges selective to their bonded spren, like shooting light through a filter, and taking only a selection of the spectrum. It’s an analogy I like, although I’m not sure if it’s of my own device. A Windrunner Invests Stormlight, and he can bond or lash. Furthermore, if trapped in a gem, a fabrial may harness this stormlight to an effect determined by the gem. In this case, the gem is the filter. So, you can change the vessel, that is, the filter (different surgebinder, different gem) but what if that isn’t the only thing you could change? What if a Surgebinder could Invest an entirely different kind of Light? Voidlight, Voidbinding, and Gavilar’s Design We’ve seen a different Light, perhaps even, a different form of Investiture. There are hints that this exists, termed Voidbinding, but I’m doubtful this is of the exact same vein. What I speak of is Odium’s sphere. The black sphere Gavilar held. Strongly implied to be of Odium. Gavilar believed he could return the Parsheni gods, which we now know to be Voidspren, and this black sphere seems by far the most likely means to that end. Only… there’s a problem with this; a Parsheni cannot Invest. They can bond a spren, sure, and surely it is possible that Gavilar’s sphere contained a voidspren for the Parsheni to bond, but this explanation seems…mundane, and at the very least it does not match the description of the Stormspren we see in Word’s of Radiance. I have another theory, but I’ll backtrack a moment. Why was Gavilar so interested in the Knights Radiant? I've asked myself this of a time, and the answer that returns is simple, “Gavilar wanted a Radiant, because Radiants can surgebind” We've seen Amaram, who was a confidant of Gavilar, greatly desires the return of the Heralds, and I believe Gavilar is referenced as a pious man, and my bet is that Gavilar sought to begin a Desolation so that the Heralds would return. Now, he may have been manipulated by Odium, as Shallan’s father was. Certainly Navani saying that he had a darker side is some points in that direction, although hardly conclusive. He could have just been a pious man who sought the return of the Heralds through some misguided Faith. But, I digress. As I said, long speech. Now, I think that Gavilar’s design required a Radiant. A Radiant to Invest with the essence of Odium, this then, is what begets a desolation. Further Speculation on Desolations So then, we’re on the same plateau. I’m sure those of you who read this, insightful gems you are, have already guessed the implications of this. A Desolation is caused when a surgebinder Invests Odium. A Desolation is caused when a Herald breaks under torture. But breaks to do what? Well…you’ve probably deduced my meaning. We’ve seen glimpses of what Damnation is like, hooks through flesh, fire melting skim, fat and bone. Searing agony, doubly so for a surgebinder, knowing it could all stop if only they drew a little Odium into them. We’ve seen how stormlight heals and fortifies the body, I can imagine for the Heralds, surgebinders, being trapped in Damnation without access to Stormlight, but with Odium’s essence all around them. I can’t think of a better way to break them. This also explains why the Heralds bring a Desolation, they can tap Voidlight and return to Roshar, but in doing so they bring Voidspren which can then infect and/or corrupt. Only, this time, the Heralds stayed. They stayed because they were too broken to go back, and because they knew if they stayed, the Pact would hold, as long as Taln remained. Taln, who is famous for impossible last stands, Taln who, I feel, would be the last to break. I his disregard for his own life implies a lack of fear of Damnation and suggests that he wasn’t broken. Not yet, and…perhaps…not now. If Taln in Words of Radiance is not Taln truly. Shin Stone Shamanism and Recreance This, then, would explain the reason why the Shin view the Stormlight as profane. A lot of Stone Shamanism, or at least in Szeth’s experience and being Truthless, seems to relate to the return of Desolations. Surely, then, anyone who could Invest Stormlight is putting the world in peril of a Desolation. It would make sense then, that this fear of surgebinders take root, assuming the superstition to be based in some fact. If, perchance, the Radiants knew this to be true, or found it out, it would explain Recreance as well. It takes one surgebinder to bring another Desolation, to sweep the slate clean. It might well make sense. As long as the Radiants remain, the possibility of massive failure awaits, a second Desolation. Without a surgebinder, the possibility is almost nothing. Moreover, the death of the spren makes them exceedingly unlikely to trust humans again, lowering the likelihood of future bonds even more so, and it also makes sense why the last Radiant Dalinar speaks to is so morose about the inevitability of the Last Desolation. Moreover, we know there is some war when the Radiants desert their oaths. Perhaps they feared the ramifications of a losing side will to go to extreme, Odium-investing, measures. As I said, it only takes one. As a final aside, I think it is Odium's cunning that is the reason we haven't seen an Everstorm before. He had to break or corrupt the Heralds, he had to let the rot set in with people (or selectively reveal information to catalyse this) and at the end he unleashes his most devastating device. Exactly when people have no Herald, no Knights Radiant, barely a sense of unity and Parshmen in every city. That said, I'm not sure if the Everstorm is the Final Desolation, or merely an aspect of it. I could certainly imagine that this could well be Opium trying to sweep the field and pull out all the stops. The Acknowledgements of Alternates: (A Few) It then should come as no surprise that there are alternate hypothesis that some may dare to say are more credible. Certainly, Nale could merely mean what we saw in Words of Radiance. The Parsheni were, in part, pushed to become Stormform based on the appearance of Kaladin at the Battle of the Tower. The return of Surgebinders begat the return of Voidbringers. It is also possible that the Black Sphere is not the cause of a Desolation, but rather the essence of Odium that allows him to choose a champion, or something else to this extent. Midnight essence, even. I should note that the nature of damnation is also highly speculative, as is the possibility of a surgebinder Investing voidlight. Or even voidlight behaving as stormlight does. Perhaps they have radically different types of Investiture, or mayhap voidlight cannot be Invested. I do not know if Recreance ties in well with my theory or not, this is just where it has taken me, yet it feels meaningful, it feels right. I also think that it could be due to Bondsmiths getting some special insight into the death of Honour, or Odium in general just influencing some important people at the right time. Odium clearly does not need to be physically present to influence people, I surmise an Investment by Odium would be a lot like a Parsheni bonding a Stormspren, but it might not even be necessary. Thank you.
  21. I've been reading Sanderson for a while, but never really bothered with a forum account until now. Hopefully I can contribute some stuff to the discussion of the man's latest work! So, it's pretty obvious that each of the books will start with Dalinar's assassination as the prologue, as seen from the eyes of a different participant or character at the time. With Words of Radiance's release, a lot of interesting stuff has been revealed that wasn't shown in Szeth's version of the scene, and there's a /lot/ of weird future hooks that I don't think I've seen addressed anywhere else. For starters, who was Jasnah planning to assassinate? If the two letters she wrote were similar, then it'd imply that Jasnah had reason to possibly want Aesudan dead- but why? More importantly, though, has anybody analyzed what Jasnah overheard in the hallway? So who's 'Ash'? Who's the person who's 'getting worse'? What exactly are they 'getting worse' in? I'm personally of the opinion that 'That creature' is Szeth, but that raises the question of who 'my lord' is, and why the Azish ambassadors should think that Szeth's Honorblade ought to belong to their lord instead. Alternatively, maybe they're talking about Nalan, Nightblood, and Vasher? That makes so much less sense, though- as far as we know, none of them show up in the scene anywhere. And just /what/ exactly did these people 'do' which they thought was wrong, and how does it relate to Szeth keeping his Honorblade? I have so many questions about this scene. ------- On a different note, I also noticed something strange about the prelude to Way of Kings. In the Way of Kings, in the introduction scene where Kalak and Jezrien prepare to abandon the Oathpact, Kalak describes seeing "Men in primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads." This matches exactly Talenel's statement in Words of Radiance that, after every desolation, people would be reduced to stone-age level technology, with bronze being their highest technological achievement which could only be reached when the Heralds returned. This raises a few questions, because Kalak also states that the primitive bronze-using men were juxtaposed with "others in gleaming plate armor", presumably Knights Radiant- and it's been stated that the Knights Radiant were founded by Ishar, to preserve knowledge of the past and to help protect men. Does that mean that, as soon as the Knights Radiant were founded, the Heralds immediately gave up their burdens? There's little other way to explain the convergence of the 'primitive stone-age men' period with the 'knights radiant protect humanity' period. But if so, that means that the Knights Radiant only ever fought /one/ single Desolation before the Recreance alongside the Heralds, if even that. Otherwise, with the Knights Radiant around to do their job of protecting and teaching, humanity wouldn't have been reduced to not even knowing how to cast bronze every desolation. So... seriously, Heralds? You just give up the oathpact as /soon/ as you set up the Knights Radiant? Not even a few generations to make sure that you've taught them everything important about fighting Desolations and being Honorable and whatnot? The lack of foresight the Heralds display here is, honestly, completely galling. Though that's not really a surprise, once you take into account the state of Roshar, four-and-a-half millennia later. More interesting, though, is why the Heralds felt like they /could/ put down the Oathpact once they set up the Knights Radiant. The Heralds thought that perhaps they could end the cycle of Desolations forever by setting down the Oathpact- in which case, setting up the Knights Radiant feels almost pointless. If there's no more Desolations to protect humanity from, why even set up an elite corps of magic knights? So, ultimately, my question is this: did the abandonment of the Oathpact require, somehow, that others- the Radiants- take it up? If not, what was the /true/ purpose for why the Radiants were formed? The pieces of information I have doesn't add up to a coherent whole, and I notice I am confused.
  22. In searching for some other quotes, I came across something that might be an interesting tidbit. The wording is what sparked my mind. Hypothesis: The Desolation is a world-hopping event, and either creates a breach directly to Braize, or transfers things from Braize to Roshar. Evidence: • Odium is suspected to be located on Braize, also called Damnation by Vorinism • The Heralds are tortured in Damnation, or Braize • The return of the Heralds occurs at the same time as the Desolation • The Desolations are preceded by the arrival of a previously unknown on Roshar creature known as the Midnight Essence, seemingly unrelated to the Desolation • The True Desolation is related to a giant storm, the Everstorm, which could have investiture powers on the same scale as the Highstorms • The Spren are particularly wary of the Desolation, and sensitive to it's arrival. Spren live in the cognitive realm, the known method of worldhopping • The Voidbringers were said to be cast back to the 'Tranquiline Halls', a Vorinism belief that corresponds potentially to Yolen (the origin of humanity) • The Odium spren began to appear around the time of the Desolation, and Odium is believed to be on Braize Possible Conclusions: It seems likely that the Desolation itself, in whatever particular form it takes, is a worldhopping event. It is possible that the Desolation is simply the opening of a corridor between Braize and Roshar, causing a variety of creatures to appear in Roshar to wreak havoc. As we have very little specifics about what the Desolation itself is, a more complete conclusion cannot be drawn. Edit: Colloary It strikes me that I missed a vital implication. If the Parshendi are in fact Voidbringers, and the Voidbringers came/were driven to another world at the end of most desolations, it seems logical that the Parshendi were in fact the native race of Braize, not Roshar as some have theorized. They crossed during the world hopping event of the desolations. That would leave the Aimians (confirmed by WoB to be not-human) as the native people of Roshar.
  23. I have one last theory before WoR is released. So we all know that there is a fancy pants weird sun in the sky in Shadesmar. What is the purpose of this sun in Shadesmar? Is it there just to give light? Or is there a higher function? Well, I finished up my pre-WoR WoK reread today (not that is really matters since Amazon is the Devil) and I came across this tidbit spoken by Honor in Ch. 75, "In the Top Room": So, obviously there is the mundane figurative imagery of the sun setting on a time of relative peace. But, perhaps there is more to this. Perhaps the sun in Shadesmar rises after a desolation and begins to set as a desolation begins to approach. The setting of the sun signalling the start of the desolation. As some evidence of this, I note that in Ch. 45 "Shadesmar", Shallan notes that the small white sun in Shadesmar "hung on the horizon". So the perhaps figurative sun spoken of by Honor is in a similar position to the Shadesmar sun seen by Shallan. Obviously not conclusive by any margin. But, an interesting thought nonetheless. What say ye?
  24. Now I’ve seen a lot of posts about Szeth abandoning his truthlessness and deciding to ignore his orders to kill Dalinar or whatever, and how awesome it would be for him to become a good guy, and it would be quite cool. But I have my doubts You see the Shin seem to be a rational and sound people, a people who hate violence, and yet this tradition of truthless seems totally crazy. I could buy if it was just the lifetime of absolute servitude with no absolution from your sins, maybe, it would still be extremely odd as every system of morality’s goal is to stop people from breaking its rules so forcing someone to do so is extremely odd But They give this truthless requires a shardblade (Possibly an honorblade) It just seems odd, odd enough that I feel that it is safe to say that this punishment is not just an arbitrary decision. It’s not just a form of punishment, even if it is somewhat similar to the fate of people who pick up normal weapons. My theory is that something that Szeth did has caused something to start happening, something that he now has to hold back through the trial of being a truthless. I think that something started the return of Odium and the desolation and now Szeth has to maintain his oath as a truthless for as long as possible to delay it for as long as possible. So when he breaks his oath the proverbial gloves come off and we go into round one of the last desolation. I have a few points to support this theory It has been theorised that Szeth’s blade is an honor blade, if this were true then I would like to point to the original world changing effects of the Heralds putting them down, an act that somehow stopped the cycle of Desolations, if szeth had now picked one up then it stands to reason that it is possible that it has something do with unstopping them. Second Shivor is the only large place on Roshar where the high storms don’t reach, there are also no spren in Shivor (at least there are none just hanging around) Which strikes me as very odd. Now I have always wondered what the Rosharn shads version of, can’t see metal, was. There is, what I consider, a hint in the first interlude at the pure lake. Basically they believe that the evil god can’t see them when they are on certain sacred grounds and so they are free to worship as they please there. So I figured I should run with that, what if there was some way to seal off a section of land from the power of the Shards, if that were the case then Shivor, the huge odium safe zone, would be the best place to hide the desolation trigger, as I shall call it. Now do you recall the last scene with Szeth where he meets his employer at Karbanath. There is a very brief section there where Szeth contemplates killing Tarvagian instead of following his orders. This section not only proves that Szeth can break his oath but it also is worded suspiciously “but honor prevailed for now” ← (weak evidence I know but directly after this, the next chapter, also this is parafrased I'll get the exact quote later, when I have my book again), you get a scene of hoid describing the bowl movements of the world and a herald breaking down the gates of Kolinar. Just after. It would also make for an amazing scene if he ever did break his oath. So there it is, am I right, am I wrong, what do you think is the desolation trigger, what do you think will happen when\if Szeth breaks his oath.
  25. Ok, this is what I'm thinking after hearing what Darkness had to say to Lift about Surgebinding. What if the Heralds convinced the Knights Radiant that Surgebinding would return the Desolation and to stop that from happening they had to betray their spren to stop any more spren from bonding with humans in an effort to stop the next Desolution? What do you guys think? Feel free to pick it apart.