Search the Community

I know a lot of people think the Nightwatcher is a spren of Cultivation, but if the Nightwatcher is associated with "Old Magic," could that mean that it is old, meaning she was there before Honor and Cultivation? Could the Nightwatcher be a Splinter of Adonalsium? What part of the boons/curses behaves Cultivation-ey? It doesn't seem obvious to me. I think we are missing a large part of the picture if we assume the Nightwatcher is primarily a Cultivation thing. Perhaps Cultivation got involved later, but I think Nightwatcher is either native to Roshar or otherwise splintered directly from Adonalsium. What say ye?

So this isn't technically a full theory because of lack of evidence, mostly seeing what people think. Fist we have to ask the question, "was Adonalsium always Adonalsium, or did he pick it up." Seriously we need someone to ask that question, and unless Brandon Sanderson decides to visit Turkey, there is little chance of me being able to ask him. Moving on, I had an idea that Sazed would end up being the complete Adonalsium. It just makes sense to me. Unfortunately, because it makes so much sense, Brandon Sanderson will probably not do that. The reason it makes sense to me, is that Harmony is currently getting attacked by another shard, and, if he wins, he would probably take on that shard too. (Although, if he is being attacked by Odium, he would probably need to take a more positive shard too, because Odium and Ruin would probably outweigh Preservation.) Anyway, I think that there will probably end up being another Adonalsium, the question is, will it be Sazed. (If you don't think a new Adonalsium makes sense, please tell me in the comments. I have no problem with my theory being disproved.)

We see in Harmony the problem of holding two shards with opposite Intents: creeping paralysis. It becomes harder and harder for Sazed to act. Adnolasium is the combined form of the sixteen shards... and their Intents. Perhaps Adonalsium was functionally inert by the time it was shattered? Perhaps those who shattered Adonalsium chose to do so because Adonalsium had become incapable of action? Ok Sharders, fire away!

The following is a summary of my perspective on the cosmere, I'd appreciate a read if you have some spare time . Note that large portions of this is unconfirmed and is merely my belief and how I have interpreted the books. In the beginning, there was Adonalsium. A concentration of pure energy, known as investiture, that compromised the fundamental powers of all creation and existed in nothing, for it alone existed. There was not vacuum nor emptiness that surrounded it, and it likewise was not bound by dimension. Adonalsium existed for some time, until it grew a consciousness as all concentrations of investiture do. Following the creation of a consciousness, the power eventually developed a sense of self, meaning it recognized that it existed. Perceptions like this could not exist on a spiritual level as everything on the spiritual scale manifested itself as the same pure power of investiture; instead, it needed a distinct and separate realm to actually manifest itself and not remain unstructured. This resulted in the creation of the cognitive realm, which could house specified, structured forms of investiture like conscious thought. Investiture formed both realms and therefore were not bound by them as an object would a wall; thus, the investiture was able to seep between the realms as if through a porous boundary. Because investiture was so highly concentrated in the spiritual, it began to flow into the cognitive. Most of the investiture stayed in the spiritual, however, as at the heart of the spiritual lay the greatest concentration of investiture, which had a pull similar to that of gravity. This point was similar to a shardpool, except on a spiritual level; this explains why dissipated investiture is not lost, but rather reforms at a point of concentration like the Pits or the Well. Eventually, something resulted in the transfer of large quantities of investiture to the cognitive realm. This sudden influx of power caused a hole to be punched in the fabric of the cognitive and resulted in the formation of the physical realm. As the investiture flooded the realm on the other side of the hole, it began to manifest itself as matter. This sudden influx of energy and matter became the Cosmere's equivalent of the Big Bang. Adonalsium discovered that it could alter how this matter manifested itself and as such began to experiment. Simultaneously, its perception of the newly created mass formed the first cognitive aspects with corresponding physical attributes. Its actions regarding these new manifestations of power and his following discovery of creation and destruction led to the development of its personality. Following experimentation, Adonalsium realized that it could create life by creating an object that could exist on all 3 planes; a spiritual aspect to grant sentience, a cognitive aspect to give structure, and a physical embodiment of the 2. The level of sentience granted depended on the strength of the spiritual investment that was devoted to granting this aspect. Adonalsium also made each creature exude small amounts of investiture naturally from their own spiritual aspect (the rate of which increases as more investiture is utilized), as well as naturally replenish this investiture by absorbing it from the radiation of others or the inherent investiture present in all things. This biologically exuded investiture worked mainly on a cognitive level, attaching to preconceived cognitive aspects of objects or in rare cases beginning to create new ones; this is what allows for the ability of conscious thought and perception to build on or alter the cognitive aspect of an object (This explains the need for natural ink in the crafting of a soulstamp, and why the inks from animals were better than the inks from plants. The animals had greater sentience and therefore exuded more spiritual investiture, giving greater power to the stamps and allowing for more drastic changes to the cognitive aspect of the targeted object). This biological investiture also serves to form connections on the spiritual level. Connection allows for the manipulation of the objects one is connected to; for example, when burning steel or iron, connections to nearby metals are temporarily forged, allowing the allomancer to push or pull respectively. In certain cases, such as that of containing breath or burning metals, enough investiture is being used that it is minutely perceptible to others who are attuned to investiture at the time (breath holders/seekers). Adonalsium created this life in his own image, giving it fundamental feelings and beliefs similar to those he already possessed. By observing the interactions between these manifestations, he discovered feelings of hate or love, as well as the concept of honor and giving; before this point, he had no idea of these concepts as he had not had any interactions with anything other than himself. His own existence changed to accommodate these personality aspects, as he and his manifestations were the same, just on different scales (Think: fractals) Eventually, 16 of Adonalsium's creations rose up to take his power, possibly by his consent. They split this power into 16 of its fundamental aspects in an event called the Shattering, and each took a piece of the power. The aspects had been ingrained/broken in to follow certain patterns of use from their time with Adonalsium, however, and over time these pre existing points through which investiture could easily flow overrode the personalities of the holder, resulting in the lack of the holders ability to use the shards for anything other than their pre existing intent. The result is the cosmere as we know it. Description of the 3 realms: The spiritual realm, as the origin of investiture, has the greatest concentration by far. All investiture in the spiritual realm is fundamentally the same, only minorly differentiated by its history of use (intent). It is also separated into groups that generally each have a corresponding physical and cognitive aspect. The investiture in the spiritual also composes connections between various spiritual aspects The cognitive realm gives structure to the physical realm. It is composed entirely of ideas and concepts formed in the physical realm, however, and as such has a 2 way feedback loop; the cognitive structures the physical, but impressions of the physical can override or build upon the cognitive. Since most perceive only what already exists in the physical (which is usually an exact match for the cognitive aspect), very little change occurs in normal circumstances. Certain magic systems, like soulstamps and soulcasting, use relatively large amounts of investiture to intentionally alter the cognitive aspect of an object, however, and as such can produce transformative results. It's important to note that the greater the strength of the spiritual aspect of the target, the more difficult and investiture-consumptive it it to alter the cognitive aspect. This explains why sticks, which are a form of life and therefore have relatively large spiritual investment, are more difficult to soulcast than air or rock. It also explains why soulstamps need to be constantly reapplied when intended to alter humans; the humans have greater spiritual investment than any other form of life encountered so far. The physical realm is an embodiment of the cognitive that can exercise some will upon its own boundaries. It is also the most restrictive of the realms, bound by the dimensions other realms lack. Each object in the physical realm is linked to a cognitive and spiritual aspect that corresponds to it

Brandon’s use of the terms “Powers of Creation,” “Investiture” and “Adonalsium” has confused me. In this post, I explore the precise relationship among these three terms and the implications that flow from that relationship, including some issues of Realmatic theory. SUMMARY 1. “In the beginning,” the Cosmere consisted solely of the Powers of Creation. No mind yet existed to direct the Powers of Creation into any creative acts. 2. Power needs a mind to direct it or it will develop sentience on its own. Eventually the Powers of Creation did develop their own mind, and that mind was Adonalsium. Adonalsium became the Powers of Creation. 3.. Adonalsium’s mind and Soul together were the Powers of Creation, and they pre-existed the three Realms. In a post below, runyan_ft mentions that “Adonalsium” is an anagram for “a mind, a soul.” Because Adonalsium had not yet created the three Realms, he may himself be the “God Beyond” the Realms. Even after the Cosmere’s creation, I believe Adonalsium’s mind and Soul remained outside the Realms rather than become a part of them, although that's unclear. 4. The Powers of Creation were not originally Investiture themselves. Adonalsium’s creations were Investiture: “Investiture is…the building blocks of the Cosmere.” IOW Adonalsium directed the Powers of Creation to create everything else, and that “everything else” consisted of Investiture or the matter or energy Adonalsium converted Investiture into. 5. The Shattering caused the Shards to become “pieces of the Power of Creation.” Unlike Adonalsium, the Shards inhabited all three Realms, as their mortal Vessels did before they became Shards. Thus, the Shattering invested the Shards' Souls with the Powers of Creation, turning the Powers of Creation into Spiritual Realm Investiture. Splinters are even smaller, "self-aware" “pieces of the power of creation,” also composed of Spiritual Realm Investiture. ANALYSIS What Are the “Powers of Creation”? Brandon has given us few descriptions of the “Powers of Creation.” In 2008, Brandon said that the “Shards of Adonalsium [are] pieces of the power of creation itself.” Source (Q 18). In 2012, Zas asked Brandon whether “the power of creation [is] this thing of power that powers Allomancy and powers the Aons, or is the power of creation just what each Shard has?” Brandon responded: “I would say [the power] each Shard has is more the definition.” Source (Q 7). And 10 months ago, Chaos asked Brandon, “Is Adonalsium and the ‘power of creation’ synonymous?” Brandon’s answer: “In some people's usage.” The earlier snippets confirm (to me) that Adonalsium WAS the “Power of Creation” despite Brandon’s later equivocation to Chaos. Shards cannot be “pieces of the power of creation itself” if Adonalsium wasn’t first that power in whole form. The 2008 quote is also noteworthy because of what immediately followed it: “Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them.” Source (Q 18, emphasis added). IOW different Magic Systems permit mortals to “touch” the Powers - through Connections to the Shards - but that does not thereby convert these mortals into the Powers themselves, into Shards. Mortals can pluck the guitar strings, but they are not the guitar. In the current Cosmere, only the Shards are guitars. Brandon has not defined what the specific Powers of Creation are, only that they do create. Some time ago, Kurkistan argued that Cosmere "magic" applies to the Connections between Souls and Essences, for example, changing the direction of gravity (the relationship between a Soul and an aspect of a Shardworld's Essence). The closest Brandon comes to identifying these Cosmere-wide Connections are the Surges of Roshar, which correspond to the “fundamental forces” of our universe, as modified by magical influences: Q: “The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you said are basically a different set of laws of physics.” A: “Yeah.” Q: “Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?” A: “Um, y-y-yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. Like you could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would for instance consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.” Source at [1:41:30]. I suggest that the Powers of Creation, therefore, are the magic that both creates Souls and Essences and changes the Connections between them. What is “Investiture”? Let’s start with a review of some relevant WoBs, which we’ve all seen before: Q: “What is the Realmatic composition of investiture?” A: “Investiture is intended to be the building blocks of the Cosmere so I would say for the most part it transcends the different realms. Probably more of the Spiritual if anything but more accurately it transcends them.” Source (Q 39). Q: “What can you tell me about investiture?” A: “That is the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium…” Source (Q 45). Q: “Is there a Cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard's power inside someone?” A: “In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different – but those people are invested.” Source (Q 13). Brandon’s focus on “building blocks” and someone or something that has “gained” magic distinguishes Investiture from the Powers of Creation, at least pre-Shattering. Investiture seems to be the result of Adonalsium's creation process, enabling an Invested person or object to “touch” or “use” part of the “magic of Adonalsium” (the Powers of Creation). Brandon has said that objects have a limit to how much Investiture they can hold (Q 16). People apparently also have such a limit. Here’s how Brandon described Vin’s use of the mists to fuel her Allomancy: “So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak — though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she's doing just that — using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself [the powers of creation] — to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips ‘troughs’ through her body. It’s like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.” Source (Q 18). At the point of vaporization, Vin is no longer “Invested” by Preservation. She instead becomes the holder of the Preservation Shard. Again, that is the difference between a Shard and other magicians – an Invested person can access the Powers of Creation through his Connection to a Shard, but a Shard IS the Powers of Creation (or at least pieces of them) through the Shard's Spiritual Investiture. What Is Adonalsium? Let’s start with this well-known WoB: “Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then...” Source (Q 47). The mindless Powers of Creation eventually did develop a mind to direct them. That mind, that directing creative entity, was Adonalsium. And he began to create the Cosmere by Investing in it. Because Brandon calls Shards pieces of the powers of creation, Adonalsium himself must have become the Powers of Creation. REALMATIC IMPLICATIONS Was Adonalsium Part of the Cosmere’s Realms? By definition, the Powers of Creation predate the Cosmere’s Realms. Before Adonalsium used the Powers to create (that is, used himself to create), there was no Investiture, no “building blocks of the Cosmere.” That means “in the beginning” there were no Realms, since Investiture “transcends the Realms.” That suggests that Adonalsium’s mind, when it did coalesce, was simply a property of the Powers of Creation. As runyan_ft points out in his post below, “Adonalsium” is an anagram for “a mind, a soul.” Did the Powers migrate to the Spiritual Realm after its creation? It’s unclear. Though the Powers are not Investiture, they might have co-existed in the Spiritual Realm with Investiture. The M:SH scene where Preservation shoves Kelsier “upstairs” to see Time suggests the Powers of Creation were then located in the Spiritual Realm. But that scene occurs after the Shattering, when the Shards (who did exist in all three Realms – see below) had become "pieces of the Powers of Creation." It’s equally unclear whether Adonalsium’s mind ever became part of the Cognitive Realm. The Cognitive Realm is the place of perceptions. But Adonalsium was God – he was perfect. His mind either continued outside the Realmatic structure altogether or it remained a property of the Powers of Creation that migrated to the Spiritual Realm. The Spiritual Realm is the place of perfection, of Platonic forms and ideals. The perfect mind should exist only in the Spiritual Realm. If Adonalsium did become part of the Cosmere’s Realms, the best we can say is that Adonalsium co-inhabited the Spiritual Realm with his creations. It's possible Adonalsium's migration to the Spiritual Realm caused him to become Spiritual Realm Investiture at that time. Alternatively, the then-existing Spiritual Realm Investiture - Souls, Essences and Connections – might have remained separate from the Powers of Creation. We do know that, pre-Shattering, Adonalsium did allow some Souls to touch him (whether he then consisted of separately constituted Powers of Creation or as Spiritual Realm Investiture), since magic existed before the Shattering. I believe, however, that Adonalsium remained outside the Realms. He WAS the “God Beyond” the Realms. To the extent Adonalsium Invested himself in the Realms, or created Splinters of himself in the Cosmere (like he did on Roshar), or left “ambient magic” on certain planets, he entered and left parts of himself in the Realms. But I believe his full creative force stood apart and “beyond.” The Shards’ Exist in the Three Realms Pre-Ascension, the Shards’ Vessels were all mortals composed of Investiture who existed in all three Realms. Each Vessel had its own body, Soul and mind, its own personality, and its own Connections. Sazed has said that the Powers of Creation did not have a personality before the Shards acquired the Powers (HoA Chapter 55 Epigraph). I’ve proposed that Shard Mandates (Intents) developed precisely for this reason – each Shard’s personal Connection to the aspect of Adonalsium that became their Mandate. While ascension vaporized the Vessels, their personalities and Connections remained. I believe the Shattering invested the Shards with the Powers of Creation, causing the Powers to became part of the Shards’ Souls, Spiritual Realm Investiture. The Powers of Creation became the bulk of the Shards’ Spiritual DNA that comprises their Souls. (I say the Powers are only part of the Shards’ Souls, because the Vessels’ original Souls still seem to be lurking within them. The Vessels do drop out of the Shards when they die, as Leras, Ati and Vin all did.) Also, unlike Adonalsium’s mind, originally a property of the Powers of Creation, Shard minds continue to occupy the Cognitive Realm. Adonalsium, IOW, was either “beyond” the Realms or was purely Spiritual, except to the extent he chose to manifest himself in some other Realm. The Shards exist in all three Realms, and the Powers of Creation are now part of the Shards' Souls in the Spiritual Realm. That is why Brandon says the Shards are “mostly” Spiritual, but transcend the Realms. It is the difference between a true “God” and the Greek gods subject to their mortal foibles that Brandon has described the Shards as being. Splinters vs. Other Shardic Investiture Splinters are carved-out bits of a Shard's Spiritual Realm Investiture (the Powers of Creation) that have developed their own self-awareness. Source (Q 15). Unlike the resot of a Shard's Spiritual Realm Investiture, Splinters can independently create magic. They have no need to Connect back to their Shard for Power. By themselves, Splinters can perform the same magic as their Shard, though on a smaller scale. Other forms of Investiture allow a Connection to their Shard, but it is the Shard’s Power that performs the magic. This difference can be seen by comparing Divine Breath with mere Breaths. Divine Breaths are Splinters, but mere Breaths are not. A Returned, bonded with a Divine Breath, can perform magic on its own. Breaths OTOH Connect an Awakener to Endowment's Investiture. This Connection enables the Awakener to "touch" and "use" Endowment's magic. IMO post-Shattering Splinters carry the Mandate (Intent) of the Splintered Shard, despite the following WoB from August 2011: Josh: “Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards?” Brandon Sanderson: “Splinters often have their own intent.” “Intent” is a non-canonical term that Chaos invented in February 2011. While Brandon from time to time has used the term in the sense that Chaos uses it, it’s unclear whether six months after Chaos’ post Brandon would have interpreted the question as referring to “intent” in other than its normal meaning. To the contrary, the HoA Chapter 79 Epigraph (published in late 2008) uses the word “Mandate” to refer to the concept of Shard compulsion: “[Power without] a mind to oversee it [has] only a vague will of its own, tied in to the mandate of its abilities. [Emphasis added.]” Evidence: we’ve never seen a Splinter act other than in accordance with its Shard’s mandate, whether it be Divine Breath, Radiantspren (which have “meshed” mandates of both Honor and Cultivation) or Aons. But we have seen Radiantspren with their own “intent” – that is, personality and motivation – Syl, Pattern and Ivory. I think that’s what Brandon’s statement means. Adonalsium’s Splinters would not be subject to a Mandate. That’s why Brandon has said, “Spren could exist on a [world without a Shard], but they would be like the minor spren. You wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.” Source (Q 53). FINAL THOUGHTS: OVERARCHING THEME OF THE COSMERE SAGA In the WoR Epilogue (Kindle p. 1080, emphasis added), Wit/Hoid has the following conversation with Jasnah: “You’re so convinced that there is no God.” “The Almighty is – “ “Oh,” Wit said, “I don’t mean the Almighty…I just think you’ve been looking for God in the wrong places.” “I suppose that you’re going to tell me where you think I should look.” “You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess,” Wit said. “Inside the hearts of men.” “Curiously,” Jasnah said, “I believe I can actually agree with that, though I suspect for different reasons than you imply.” I believe this conversation expresses the overarching theme of the Cosmere Saga. In a post-Nietzsche universe where “God is dead,” we must rely on our “innate investiture,” our “spark of life” for salvation. God may be dead, but, to paraphrase the last sentence of William Faulkner’s The Sound and the Fury, “We endure.” EDITS: I've made a number of edits to this post to reflect the comments made by other posters below. Some of these comments were purely editorial, such as the inputs of Argel, who suggested a more readable “Summary,” and runyan_ft, who pointed out a relevant Reddit post. Other changes result from the debates you'll find in those posts. I urge readers to look at those debates, because they contain more information than this edited post and highlight the collaborative nature of theory-building. As examples, there's some interesting discussion about the meaning of "living" investiture and much more about the nature of Splinters. My thanks to all who have participated . Regards!

So I just at this moment had a though and wondering if it has merit. Could Adonalsium itself be a shard/splinter of something bigger. Mayhaps that "God Beyond". I'm wondering because the Cosmere takes place in a single dwarf galaxy with all the shards within it. And adding all the shards powers together doesn't seem like it would be enough to be powerful enough to span an entire universe's "power of creation", just enough for the Cosmere galaxy and it's couple handfuls of planets. So mayhaps Adonalsium and it's opposite are sort of like Ruin and Preservation. Splinters of something bigger that are opposite intents. 16 shards / intents > Adonalsium Adonalsium + opponent + possibly others > Something else. What are your thoughts?

I’ve speculated a lot lately about Adonalsium’s Shattering, including Frost and Hoid’s role in it and whether Adonalsium anticipated and planned for it. I want to take this discussion one step further, tying in Iriali mythology and the existence of unique Shardworlds; and exploring whether Adonalsium is actually dead and what was actually “Shattered.” Unlike other of my posts, this one is pure conjecture without any supporting evidence. Is Adonalsium the Iriali “One Who Became Many”? Many posters (most recently Stormgate, who reminded me of Ym) have pointed out the similarity between Ym’s description of the “One” and Adonalsium’s Shattering: “Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And so, One became many—us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things...Eventually, all will be gathered back in—when the Seventh Land is attained—and we will once again become One.” [WoR Interlude I-2.] “People” already existed when the Shattering occurred. Rather than a reference to the Shattering, we could interpret Ym’s statement as the reason why Adonalsium created the Cosmere’s Physical Realm in the first place: “One knew everything, but had experienced nothing.” Adonalsium converted part of his own soul into the Physical Realm to gain such experience, at least in Iriali mythology. And his conclusion sounds like the end result of a dynamic system that has wound its way down, reverting to its original Spiritual Realm state. But Ym’s statement is also a fair metaphor for the Shattering and a clue to what might have been Adonalsium’s “plan.” Brandon does love foreshadowing. Perhaps Adonalsium had become “bored” with the universe he created. He may have felt his “wholeness” diminished his creative capacity. He needed to “shake things up” to get past his “writer’s block.” Maybe he not only knew in advance but actually engineered or permitted the conspiracy that Shattered him. Did Adonalsium Have “Perfect” Foresight? Could Adonalsium have engineered events even if he wanted to? Unlike the Shards, whose ability to see the future in many cases is limited by their mandate (intent), Adonalsium should be omniscient. Omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence are the three characteristics of God in monotheistic religions – “all-knowing” about the past, present and future; present everywhere; and all-powerful. Brandon has said the Shards, in comparison, are like Greek gods – mortals who have ascended to hold great (but limited) power and who remain subject to their mortal foibles. If Adonalsium is like “God” and not a “god,” he should have perfect foresight. But Brandon has also said that “future sight” in the Cosmere is based on quantum mechanics probability principles, rather than the “deterministic” mechanisms proposed by his influences Baruch Spinoza and Isaac Asimov (in The Foundation Trilogy). The M:SH plot demonstrates Brandon’s approach. It is unclear why Adonalsium should have greater foresight than the most far-seeing of the Shards: presumably Cultivation, Odium or Preservation (of the ones we’ve seen). Maybe the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but this at least raises a question about the infallibility of Adonalsium’s future sight. Foreseeing the Shattering and its results may not have been easy even for Adonalsium. At best he could hope to see the “main line” of probabilities and place his bets accordingly. That’s partly why Hoid is such an interesting character. He is the “wild piece,” the joker, the chance element anticipated by the Diagram (WoR Chapter 85 Epigraph.) How much Hoid helps or hinders Adonalsium’s plan should continue to be fun to follow. Did Adonalsium Create the Future Shardworlds for More Varied Magic Systems? Assume that Adonalsium did intend the Shattering as a way to spread new and different forms of himself around the Cosmere, and assume further he had the foresight to set up this possibility. The future Shardworlds he created would by his design then be different from one another. Adonalsium would WANT new and unique magic systems from the interaction of his Shards and the Shardworlds. Forum speculations about different planetary “essences” and “foci” may simply be a reflection of his plan. To “experience all things,” he would further want his magic to be passed down to “us, people.” This may be the reason investiture wants to be used. Through “cracks in the soul,” genetic manipulation and the gift of Shards, investiture seeks out and enters the SpiritWebs of sentient life. People become magicians, creating greater magical diversity across a wide swath of the Cosmere. Magical entropy in action! Is Adonalsium Dead? As pointed out by Pagerunner below, Adonalsium is “undeniably and reliably dead.” [“Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead,” The Wizard of Oz.] Pagerunner reminds us that “death doesn't always mean the end of the story, in the Cosmere.” Leras tells Kelsier in M:SH that the more heavily invested a person is, the longer it takes for them to “die.” Brandon has also said killing a Shard takes a very long time – how much longer would it take for Adonalsium himself to die? It’s hard to imagine the Vessels waiting around for their allocated share of power. If the power were already leaking away, like Ruin and Preservation’s power when Sazed held out his hands, why would it have divided itself equally among them? I’ve suggested elsewhere that Shard mandates (intents) came about because of the psychological make-up of each Vessel – the power entered each Vessel based on the Vessel’s individual Connection to that aspect of Adonalsium. But it wouldn’t have entered them in equal shares unless the Vessels took some action to ensure power equality. Which brings me to the next question… What Was Actually “Shattered”? Hamilcar in an interesting post opined that Adonalsium was the “god metal” of the God named “Adonai.” (I suppose the God could have been named “Adonals,” but whatever…) IOW, Adonalsium was the Physical Realm “power” of the God, just as Lerasium and Atium were the Physical Realm power of Leras and Ati, respectively. If so, that would explain what “Shattered” at the Shattering. Ironically, I suggested something like this in a parody about the Shattering I posted last summer – the Vessels were conducting an autopsy on a dragon named Adonalsium and accidently dropped his gemheart, shattering it. (Young Frankenstein, anyone?) Simply killing Adonalsium would not have “Shattered” his power, if Leras is precedent. Maybe that’s why Khriss in M:SH described the event in the conjunctive: the Vessels “killed Adonalsium, ripping it apart and dividing its essence between them…” First the Vessels killed him by ripping him apart and THEN divided his essence among them – by Shattering his power. This does sound like Adonalsium had a gemheart or something similar, doesn’t it? Maybe the “weapon” (for the Shattering, at least) was a simple pickaxe aimed at the precise spot to create sixteen equal parts? Or maybe the entire gemheart (or whatever) was crushed into tiny bits and equal portions assigned to each Vessel by weight. The pickaxe and other equipment they used became dulled by usage – “expended” and “changed.” (I am being fanciful here – partly…) Stormgate compared the assassination itself to Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar (“E tu, Cephandrius?”) (Unfortunately, he posted on March 11 – he should have waited four more days until the Ides of March.) As The Invested Beard said in response, “Leras does have a very odd relationship with that bone handled knife of his...” Made of aluminum maybe? Khriss, of course, may be misinformed about these events. It’s clear from her conversation with Kelsier that she herself has never spoken with a Shard. We don’t know how she acquired her information about the assassination or the Shattering. Maybe Hoid or Frost told her. The other question is how the Shards could have obtained access to the powers of creation simply by dividing Adonalsium’s “essence” among them. Yolen isn’t Scadrial, where an Allomancer could metabolize the ingested bits of “essence.” Or maybe they somehow could – something more for us to think about. The important point, however, is that killing Adonalsium and dividing his “power” doesn’t necessarily destroy all of his spirit (which permeates everything). Adonalsium could also have squirreled away a bit of his consciousness too, stored in advance in some remote corner of the Cosmere. Adonalsium did leave splinters on Roshar, after all. Is that why Honor and Cultivation went there, to “bind” and “regrow” Adonalsium? Is that why Odium followed them, to make sure they couldn’t interfere with his plan to be Last Shard Standing? One final thought on this subject: if Adonalsium’s essence was powdered into equal portions for the Vessels to consume, maybe they left over a tiny unseen grain. Maybe a bystander viewing these events might have noticed it and, after the Shards departed, picked up the tiny grain and swallowed it. Hoid maybe, the “smoke” to Adonalsium’s “flame”? That would explain quite a bit… How Do You Remake God? The Iriali myth contemplates a time when “we will once again become One.” Many Forum posters see this as referring to Adonalsium’s reconstruction. The shoal their theory crashes on is lack of a reconstruction mechanism: how can this happen? The answer I believe is “mandate-meshing”: Moogle’s excellent theory entitled “Intent Meshing: How Magic Systems Arise” That theory states that the mandates (intents) of different Shards can join together to create new magic systems. More fundamentally, the theory predicts that Shard mandates can merge into one another to create altogether new investiture. We know this happens on Roshar – Radiantspren are mixtures of Honor’s and Cultivation’s investiture, each of which can do things that pure Honor or pure Cultivation investiture cannot do on their own. What happens, then, if you “mesh” ALL Shard mandates together? Theoretically, the investiture should LOSE all mandates, becoming pure unfiltered Adonalsium investiture. As it was, so shall it be… This may be Hoid’s goal or the goal of or one or more of the “secret societies” lurking in the Cosmere. We suspect from Sixth of the Dusk that the people seeking to exploit the magic of First of the Sun come from Scadrial after they discover space travel. Perhaps they visit a minor Shardworld because the magic there presumably came from Adonalsium directly. No Shard (as far as we know) invested in minor Shardworlds. This magic can act as a “seed” with which to catalyze the Adonalsium-reconstruction process. Again, did Adonalsium anticipate this? Conclusion Conjecture piled on conjecture. I hope you find it entertaining during these between-book doldrums. Regards all! Postscript: I remain unfamiliar with a lot of internet protocol. When I went to college, electric typewriters were novel and expensive and personal computers had not yet been invented. I don’t know what gives cause for down-votes. I’ve assumed that if you don’t like what I post, you’ll just ignore it unless I make a personal nasty comment about someone. But this post (and another recent post) were each down-voted for some reason. Could someone explain why? I don’t want to cross any lines I’m unaware of. I look at the 17th Shard Forums as a place where we can talk about each other’s positions and find “truth” somewhere in the middle. Am I missing something?

This post addresses a recent comment Brandon made that we should be “pretty confused” about investiture: “I haven’t even dug into really what it is.” Source [30:30] [Emphasis added.] After all this time and all his statements (the most relevant of which I cite below), Brandon hasn’t told us what investiture really is?!! My “pretty Confused” attempt at an answer: Spiritual Investiture began as Adonalsium’s soul. He was the only thing extant in the Cosmere at the time. Every subsequent creation caused a rearrangement of his soul – Spiritual Investiture – to form the souls and essences of the people and objects he created and the Connections between them. Like the Sistine Chapel’s God holding his hand out to Adam, Adonalsium breathed life into his creations. His soul transformed itself into the “building blocks” of the Cosmere: matter and energy. This transformation literally lessened his soul, since investiture obeys the laws of thermodynamics. Adonalsium took from his soul to create the Physical and Cognitive Realms and their populations of sentient entities. When Adonalsium Shattered, the Shards invested themselves according to the same paradigm, converting their own souls into matter, energy and other forms of investiture. I believe the Shattering did not change the essence of the Spiritual Realm – it remained the same “true investiture” as when Adonalsium lived. All that changed were the Shards’ individual Connections to the powers of creation, causing each Shard’s power to be subject to its own mandate (intent). IMO these were changes solely in the structure of the Spiritual Realm, not in its composition. Following are the sources I rely on for this conclusion: “Everything is related to Adonalsium in the Cosmere…” Source Q 37.“The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything.” Source.“Investiture is intended to be the building blocks of the Cosmere…it transcends the different realms. Probably more of the Spiritual if anything but more accurately it transcends them.” Source. Q: “Does investiture have a consistent form (regardless of magic system and its Physical form) in one of the other realms?A: “[investiture is] consistent in the Spiritual Realm. Location isn't particularly important there.” Source “Investiture cannot be created or destroyed. It follows its own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.” Source.“Where [in our universe] we have energy and matter (simplified), the Cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.” Source “[The] Shards of Adonalsium [are] pieces of the power of creation itself.” Source Q 18. Q: “Is Adonalsium and the "power of creation" synonymous?”A: “In some people's usage.” Source. Q: “Was Adonalsium the one who created the Cosmere universe as a whole?”A: “That is widely assumed to be the case.” “Keep in mind that the Shards are mostly Spiritual.” Finally, I note that Adonalsium was a “mechanistic” God. He created the Cosmere in accordance with whatever rules he established for himself and his creations. But he was not a moralistic or spiritual deity. Brandon has reserved that province to the “God Beyond,” since “that level of cosmology is influenced by your own beliefs in the hereafter and in deity.” Source.

The two “Letters” between Hoid and Frost raise questions about the nature of Frost’s participation in the conspiracy that Shattered Adonalsium. Frost clearly had some role in the Shattering: “Is not the destruction we have wrought enough?” “Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain.” “[Rayse] is what we made him to be, old friend.” Brandon has strongly suggested but never confirmed that Frost is not a Vessel for a Shard. Unless there’s something peculiar about dragons, becoming a Shard’s Vessel should have vaporized his body. Yet he’s still an “old reptile.” WoB (# 124) also says that Frost is “functionally” immortal “meaning he doesn’t age but can be killed.” This phrasing suggests that Frost lacks the degree of self-healing capacity that Hoid himself has: Hoid can grow a new head if he were beheaded and is very difficult to kill (WoB). But the First Letter states “as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.” This suggests that Frost “now” has sufficient self-healing capacity to be illness-free if not violence free. This new capacity seems to have arisen in connection with the Shattering. My speculation: 1. Because Frost and Hoid are the two oldest Cosmere characters – and presumably had the greatest knowledge of Adonalsium – they knew things the sixteen Vessels didn’t know. I speculate that they advised the sixteen HOW to Shatter Adonalsium. Maybe they designed the “weapon” that killed him. Neither wanted to become a Vessel himself. 2. Rayse and Bavadin may have persuaded Hoid to help, who then sought out Frost. That would explain why Hoid is so angry at them, “perpetuating [his] grudge” against them. Hoid may feel they betrayed him, especially after Rayse killed Skai and Aona. (And Tanavast “bought drinks” for Hoid once…one of my favorite lines in SLA.) 3. Frost OTOH seems to feel guilt over his participation more than anything else. Now he languishes on Yolen, bound by his nonintervention oath. 4. It’s possible the “price” the Vessels paid Frost for his help was his “functional” immortality. Perhaps that’s also how Hoid acquired his spectacular Feruchemical ability, as his price. These would have been "paid" after the conspirators ascended. 5. I suspect Frost’s involvement with the Seventeenth Shard is simply as a provider of information. Once Khriss discovered him (and maybe Yolen), he filled in her historical knowledge. I doubt he’s an active member, though he appears in ongoing communication with them (or at least Hoid thinks so). Rank speculation is so much fun! Thoughts?

Frost in the Second Letter suggests that Adonalsium may have planned for what would happen after his Shattering to prevent any of the Shards from causing too much damage to the Cosmere: t seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we—as infants—stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem…[J]oin me in my oath of nonintervention. The cosmere itself may depend upon our restraint. This statement suggests that someone (or thing) – presumably Adonalsium – set things up in ways that Hoid cannot understand (in Frost’s mind, anyway). This statement reminds me of what happened on Scadrial, when Preservation established his plan to defeat Ruin long before his death, knowing he wouldn’t be around to see the results. Wouldn’t that be interesting! No wonder Frost believes so strongly in “nonintervention,” criticizing Hoid for “tow[ing] chaos behind [him] like a corpse dragged by one leg through the snow.” This is the conflict between Order and Change, conservatism and liberalism – a parent “perpetually disappointed” in a wandering child. Thoughts?

I have a theory that, before it was Nightblood, the sword now called Nightblood killed Adonalsium. Nightblood is the only thing in the Cosmere that is truly end-negative (it removes Investiture from the Cosmere) so before that, it may have been really powerful.

I previously theorized that Adonalsium’s Shattering caused the powers of creation to “choose” the Shard each Vessel became based on the Vessel’s dominant psychological trait. Our new understanding of Connections IMO confirms the theory: the power chose the Shard based on each Vessel’s Connection with that aspect of Adonalsium. Evidence: 1. The biggest objection to my initial theory was Ati. How could such a “kind and generous man” have become Ruin the Destroyer? But Preservation tells Kelsier in M:SH that "Everything passes, nothing is eternal. That is what Ati always claimed... [emphasis added]” Preservation here refers to Ati, not Ruin. That suggests that Ati always had an affinity for Ruin, even before his ascension, as a matter of deep-seated personal belief. He was Connected to Ruin despite his personality. 2. Brandon says that different Vessels would have had different mandates (intents). That suggests the mandates were based on something personal to each Vessel. 3. Kelsier had difficulties holding Preservation because he was so Connected to Ruin. As a “destroyer,” Kelsier has few equals: see you later, TFE… I use the word “mandate” instead of “intent” because that’s the word Sazed himself uses. In HoA, Sazed describes the mists as acting with a "vague will of their own tied to the mandate of their abilities" (HoA, Chapter 79, emphasis added.) I think that’s what we mean when we talk about a Shard’s “intent,” a word coined by Chaos in an excellent post some years ago. I prefer the textual word. Does this sound right?

Foreword: I, evidently, have the worst memory ever because half of the terms used I use because I have forgotten the actual word Sanderson uses. "Attuned", etc. is one such term. <- not anymore it isn't. So, one of the (admittedly few) WoB I know of states that the weapon used to kill Adonalsium and make the 16 shards does not exist as it once did, or something to that effect. My proposition, although it may have already been disproved in a different WoB or another source, is that Hoid is the weapon. A theory I saw recently suggested that Adonalsium was not a great being to kill in terms of difficulty, because he, like Preservation in Mistborn, added parts of himself to everything, severely weakening himself in the process. From BoM we know that Feruchemical stores attune to one's soul have an Identity specific to the Feruchemist, but also that they can be specially made (IIRC only by full Feruchemists) to not be attuned to anyone. This makes such items, like the titular Bands of Mourning, valuable weapons and artefacts, because anyone, Feruchemist or otherwise, can use them. The way I think Hoid could be the weapon used to kill Adonalsium is if he has nothing in his soul, like one of the Bands, which makes him attuned to a specific thing. Therefore, in theory, Adonalsium might not be able to have any control over his actions and so Hoid, or whatever he was before killing him, could do what he likes. This would explain why Hoid did not gain a Shard while the others did (possibly). It had nothing to bind to him with, because he is like a blank sheet of paper. Endnote: before anyone questions a detail I might end up contradicting, I mostly posted this to see what the community would come up with, and it seemed more appropriate to add some reasoning instead of having a 2 line post quoting the WoB then saying "'Oi d'ya think it's Hoid?". That said I hope I don't contradict myself as it wouldn't exactly add any credibility to the theory. EDIT 2(?): I have no clue how this affects it, but in WoK I stumbled upon this most interesting of quotes regarding Hoid's beginning which I hadn't considered: when he speaks to Kaladin on the Shattered plains (or rather, plays to Kaladin for a large portion of the meeting) he says that he "began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole [at this point he is talking about the fact he is a thief]. Myself."

So finally got my copy of Calamity through the post, Brandalised of course. Now, the Weapon and the Shattering is a particular topic of interest of mine - My copy of Firefight confirmed that there was a failed plot to kill Adonalsium, and my copy of BoM confirmed that Adonalsium shattered because he was killed, thereby confirming that Adonalsium was a being that identifed as male. My reuest for Brandon this time around was "for information on the current status of the weapon that was used to kill Adonalsium, including the current possessor" - as far as I am aware, nobody knows where the current location or the owner of the Weapon is. That is because the Weapon no longer truly exists. The response I received was as follows: "The weapon was expended, and no longer exists in its original form" Discuss, my fellow Sharders!

Well I've got some information about "Mistborn Secret History" but not able to read it, can anyone provide directly resources, especially about Khriss' quotes? Also there are some paragraphs about Khriss, mentioning that 16 Shard vessels killed and tore Adonalsium together?! It's too shocking and anybody able to have aother explanations? Thx

One of my brothers recommended Sandersons work to me about a year and half ago and I fell completely in love with it. I love pretty much everyone one of his writings and I have a hard time going and reading any different authors. Anyway I have been on 17th shrad quite frequently to solve arguments me and my family get into about the many different things going on his Brandons books, and i figured it was time that i actually signed up instead of just skulking through. I'm excited to be part of the community and have some awesome discussions with other Sanderson fans. TLDR: I'm a Sanderson fan and happy to be part of the 17th shard. Right out of the gate I have a question I was wondering if any of you could speculate or answer for me. When Adonalsium was shatterd into 16 pieces was it predetermined who would get what shards or was it based on personalities?

This is probably more appropriate for the Cosmere Theories board, but because I am relying on Secret Histories information, let's keep it here for the time being. So, I have a thought and a question. * We know that taking up a Shard required Connection to the Shard. * We now can parse, from Khriss's comment about the Shattering, and a very recent WoB stating that Adonalsium was Shattered because the Holder was killed, that the actual moment of Shattering probably looked very close to the "inverse" of the scene of Sazed's Ascension. In the latter case, Sazed was alone and there were two power sources which he, having Connection to both, was able to take up. * In the former case, I suspect that a similar progression occured: after being killed, Adonalsium Holder dropped a body; 16 people should have been *in the direct proximity* of the drop, they would have done the same thing Sazed did: stepped in and attempted to take up the power. As each of them had Connection to a specific aspect/Intent of the Power, they took that Intent and became a Shard. This begs the question: if a Shardholder (like Leras or Ati) dies, drops a body and TWO PEOPLE attempt to take up the power, will the Shard be split into "SubShards" with different "SubIntents"? Or, in general, what would happen? As an example: can I train two people to be (a) very active and be ( passively-aggressively hateful, kill Odium (heh!), and have Person (a) become Wrath and Person ( become Passive Aggression. (these are all examples - I actually do not know what Odium is made out of)?

Totally random and crazy theory for me, but here goes... What if we have been looking at this the wrong way, and the Death of Adonalsium wasn't the big bad event we all think it is? What if Rayse is, for all intent and purpose, the 'good guy', trying to do his best to avoid Adonalsium being reformed, and this is why he is so terrified of Sazed? As the Vessel of two Shards, he is the closest being to Adonalsium since the Shattering... Break it apart!

I finally received my copy of Bands of Mourning today, having asked for information on Adonalsium (IN my copy of Firefight it was revealed that there was a failed plot to kill Adonalsium which failed) The Inscription reads: "Adonalsium shattered because he was killed." We now have confirmation that Adonalsium was a living being, and was male. It sounds as if there were several attempts on His life... What is the current info on the Weapon and the other plots? Can we start to tie things together? Particularly with M:SH revealing so much?

Words of Radiance, Chapters 59, 60 and 61 Epigraphs, pages 725, 733, and 746 (emphasis mine). We know this to be Frost, the Dragon from Yolen, replying to Hoid's letter. Over the last few years, people have teased some answers out of Brandon here and there, and we now know that Hoid was actually the name of Hoid's master many years ago. And, obviously, the current alias is Wit, but what about that first part? Another quote somewhere (I couldn't find it, though) states that one of Hoid's old names was Topaz (correct me if I'm wrong), so it could be that Frost is asking after his aliases, after all, he opens without knowing to whom he should address his letter. I could be that "the gemstone" is simply a reference to his old name, and that that alias died, and Hoid did whatever regeneration thing he does, moved on, and picked a new name. I do not think that that is the case. The Way of Kings, Chapter 57, page 801 (emphasis mine) I hereby theorize that it is the gemstone itself that died, not the alias itself. Perhaps something Hoid did "killed" it, or him using it lead to its "death." More on this later. Now, I was reading through some WoBs, and I found this: Which relates to the section in WoR chapter 54 when Hoid name-drops Adonalsium, blows it off, talks about taking people apart and stitching them back together, and says his goodbyes to Dalinar. I would say that this subject was very important to Hoid, as Dalinar notes that he seems preoccupied, which is quite unusual. This WoB tells us a few things. 1. The secret society that Gavilar was part of knew, at the very least, the name "Adonalsium." 2. The secret society also knows more about the History of the Knights Radiant, Honor, and the Desolations, than the average Rosharan. 3. Hoid needs to know about them for some reason. What else do we know about Gavilar? Not much, except that he handed Szeth a black glowing sphere upon his death, saying "they must not get it." Another WoB I found: I theorize that this sphere is the gemstone after which Hoid was named, and it has since died, which is why it has gone black and weird. Hoid is looking for it, which is why he wanted to know if Dalinar knew anything about Gavilar's secret society. Frost asked if he has given up on it, now that it is dead. Perhaps he meant "given up on looking for it," rather than "given up on the alias." Source. Since Brandon didn't correct the questioner, this could confirm that the black sphere was at least a gemstone. So? Thoughts? Feel free to poke holes, theorize, and add to this as you will. Thank you for reading.

Hi all, just trying to get my first theory out for critiques and thoughts! So, just finished Shadows of Self, and the big question is, what shard did that new metal come from? I've seen a lot of theories out there, but I am thoroughly convinced that it is not Odium as many have thought, but Autonomy working WITH Odium. And here's why: I believe for several reasons that the shard is not Odium Odium is very busy on Roshar as is. Odium is terrified of Harmony, so would not be likely to challenge him in person, especially not on Harmony's own world. However, he might send a friend to do the dirty work. Brandon has said that not only could Odium work with other shards, but that he likely has. Odium would be willing to work with others and probably has. Paalm's entire purpose is to set herself and everyone else free of Harmony's influence and control. If another shard was controlling her, it would logically follow that she would reject this control as well. Unless that shard was influencing her towards "freedom".... So, if it's not Odium, who else could it be? My thoughts point to none other than our friend Bavadin, holding the shard Autonomy. Why? Well, It seems that Rayse (Odium) and Bavadin may be working together. This theory is not hugely supported, but the writer of The Letter did mention them and his grudges against them respectively in the same sentence, pointing to the fact that they may have more connection than we know. A full theory as to why Rayse and Bavadin may be working together was posted by Spire and can be found here. Bavadin's shard is Autonomy, or "freedom from external control or influence; independence." This seems to be exactly what Paalm is fighting for the whole time. What other shard's influence could one who so clearly wants freedom have fallen under save freedom itself? Autonomy may be fighting for a world free from Shardic influence. Who else better to ally himself with then, than someone who is actively splintering shards? The biggest argument I have seen against Autonomy being the unknown shard is the creatures that Paalm creates through Hemalurgy, likely with the same metal that is in her. This seems to be against Autonomy's intent, taking away the people affected's freedom to choose. However, we know that human sentience on Scadrial comes directly from Preservation. I postulate that the Paalm's Hemalurgic use of Autonomy's metal in this case removes any part/influence of another shard from the person the Hemalurgy is used on. This thus would remove Preservation from them, taking away their sentience and reverting them to a primal, beast-like state. Brandon said that this shard is one we've already seen. Dominion, Devotion, and Honor have all been splintered, it isn't of Harmony, for reasons shown above I don't believe that it is Odium, Cultivation is hiding on Roshar, and Endowment seems content on Nalthis. This leaves only Autonomy. Thank you for reading my theory, any comments and responses will be appreciated!

So this is going to be brief because frankly, this is pretty insane and most likely wrong. But my theory is that Trell is the force that WoB has confirmed to have been opposing Adonalsium. And why do I think this? Because of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/crwx3j1?context=3 WoB states that there is belief in a God who is not one of the Shards, and implies that that god is real. So how does that relate to Trell?. Well, the people of Scadrial believed in him pre-final empire, and Miles and Lessie seem to believe in him, and surely a third shard's presence on Scadrial would be detected by Ruin or Preservation? (Although, I admit i dont think anything says that there has never been a third shard on Scadrial at any point.) So maybe the presence of a being that was not a shard, and was instead something either powerful enough or different enough that it could go undetected on Scadrial was felt? Well that could easily be the force that opposed Adonalsium. And what do we know for certain about that force? A) It opposed Adonalsium, it had created a weapon to be used against Adonalsium and C) It's still around. So we know that whatever this force was, it really didn't like Adonalsium, and it's still out there somewhere. Which is why I think that it could be seeking to eliminate the shards. Now who else doesn't like the Shards? Lessie. Lessie, who believed in Trell and hated Harmony (a.k.a the biggest/strongest piece of Adonalsium around). So we know that there was something that was totally against Adonalsium, and it is still around, doesn't it make sense that it would set it's sights on what was left of Adonalsium after the Shattering? So maybe it looked around, and found that two of the shards which were diametrically opposed were on the same planet and decided that it would be easy to start off by getting rid of the two that would have the hardest time working together, and best to eliminate the one that embodied destruction itself (Ruin) for safety's sake. Heck, maybe it even looked around and noticed that Odium was going around doing his work for him and decided to steer clear of it's unwitting helper, and chooses Scadrial over somewhere like Nalthis or Roshar. So along to Scadrial comes Trell. He sets up shop, either waiting and watching the shards or subtly turning people against them. But then something totally unexpected happens, the two shards combine, creating Harmony. Suddenly Trell has an even bigger piece of Adonalsium to be rid of, so what does he do? He redoubles his efforts to destroy it. Thus leading to his increased presence on Scadrial as he starts trying to turn people away from Harmony. Which incidentally leads to why Trell might not be another shard as seems to be the most popular idea. Firstly, the timely reveal of Autonomy's existence totally seems like a red herring. Intended to distract people and make them think that Autonomy is Trell. But so far, all we really know is that whoever Trell may be, that someone is fighting against Harmony. But Autonomy has been off, being autonomus forever and Harmony as far as we know, has given Autonomy no reason to think that he might intend to interfere with that, while Adonalsium's Opposition (which has been lying conspicuously low) has just gained its new most powerful enemy. And guess what? as soon as Harmony appears, Trell returns and his followers, scarce though they may be, are starting to turn up. And those followers seem pretty opposed to Harmony. Sorry if this isn't all that coherent. I'm basically grasping at straws here, and im rushing in case someone else thinks of this and posts before me. Please tell me what you think. Tl;Dr: I think Trell is the force that opposed Adonalsium, because it has been confirmed to still be around and it is confirmed that a god that is not a shard exists, and the revealing of Autonomy looks like a red herring, while enemies of Harmony (the biggest piece of Adonalsium right now) seem to follow Trell.

Apologies in advance if this has been brought up before. I searched the forum, wiki and google for any derivative of the word 'Adonals' before posting this, so I am not sure if it has been mentioned. If so, please direct me to the appropriate place/WOBs. Appreciated. Alright, so recently I started reading Warbreaker again because I absolutely love Lightsong. When it got to the section with Hoid, Lightsong and Siri I was of course interested because this is my first re-read after having found the 17th Shard and learned theories of the Cosmere. After Hoid completed his history of Hallandren he said something I had not noticed before in reference to his storytelling/[Lightweaving]. "I learned it many, many years ago from a man who didn't know who he was, your Majesty. It was a distant place where two lands meet and gods have died." I thought about who that friend may have been, and of course my brain jumped to the biggest thing it possibly could, Adonalsium itself. This got me to think something; what if the biggest clue about Adonalsium right there in the name: -ium. Lerasium. Atium. Leras. Ati. Therefore, I believe Adonalsium is actually Adonals This fits right into how so many worlds in the Cosmere worship some other, greater god out there - and how often it does not seem like that would be Adonalsium Itself. So, the pieces of my theory fall thusly: 1) There is a greater power that has existed long before the creation of Adonalsium 2) A living being called Adonals found a way to steal/harvest/merge with energy of this higher power 3) Adonals became a physical embodiment of a portion of this power, taking the suffix '-ium' 4) When Adonalsium was shattered it caused the greater power to lose much of its ability to effect the Cosmere - while maintaining its sentience it can only act in very subtle ways And.... Sorry, don't really know exactly where I was going with this... I just don't recall ever having heard anything along these lines and I wanted to see what y'all have to say. I need to go to my university now for some paperwork, and I will try to flesh out this theory in my head a little better while I am gone. Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

i have an older topic of this that no one posts on anymore. i want to hear newer fresh ideas with new info we didn't have before.

From what I understand of the Cosmere, there are (or were) two Gods involved in it. One of them resided INSIDE the Cosmere (Adonalsium), whom I will call the Eminent God (EG). Eminent becaue It(?) would be present throughout the Cosmere, but not outside of it. That would be the God Beyond, or the Transcendent God (TG). Transcendent becasue It transcends the limitations of time. Now, it seems as if the TG was the one who created the Cosmere, all of its physical laws, time, and perhaps the EG. The EG is the one that created what is INSIDE the universe, and is bound by the laws that the TG created. This means that the EG is not actually a four- or fifth- dimensional being, but rather is bound by the same perception of time as all other sentient life is. This is an important distinction that must exist, because as we all know, the EG is dead. This is rather fascinating in its own right, to consider how to kill a god. But I digress. The EG was killed or died somehow and was shattered into the components of its power. The components seem to come in pairs that are diametrically opposite each other (Preservation and Ruin come to mind). However, we can infer based off of what has been stated in numerous books and Sanderson's own numerology patterns, that there were 16 main shards of power, and a seventeenth of lesser power. This could suggest that perhaps one or more of the main shards is missing a piece of its power. Following that assumption, it could be that perhaps Odium is the Shard that is missing part of itself. I remember reading a theory that stated that since Odium is hatred, and Rayse its holder, then Rayse would also hate himself. Perhaps this missing piece of his, if the seventeenth shard has part of his power in it, it could be preventing that reflexive hatred of self. It might be far-fetched, but it could be the case.