Search the Community

Hi all, i have two theories I want to get feedback on concerning Hoid and Dalinar. First, from my reading of the first 3 stormlight books I've concluded that Hoid was a conspirator in the down fall of Adonalsium who refused a shard after his defeat. But, do you think he was some other facet of Adonalsium to gain consciousness, as hinted at in WOD when wit claims he was "an idea ripped from a page" (maybe wit gaining sentience after Adonalsium fell), or is he a former resident of Yolen who has gained additional power? Also, in regard to Dalinar in OB, I believe he is manifesting some aspect of Adonalsium when he claims to be "harmony". This idea is supported by the dreams he has had that the Stormfather admits he did not send. I think these dreams are coming from some part of Adonalsium which was not destroyed. Furthermore, it is possible Hoid is leading all of the Shards to Roshqr to reunited into an ultimate God by Dalinar by the will of Adonalsium. Thoughts, questions, comments? Thanks

So, I was talking with a friend, and she was saying that she thinks Adonalsium has to have a Cognitive Shadow somewhere in the Cosmere. She was convinced by a WOB were Brandon RAFO'd the question of "Does Adonalsium have a Cognitive Shadow in the Cosmere." My first response was doubt. To me it just didn't seem like something that would happen. She asked me why, and I mentioned that Cognitive Shadows were imprints of people's investiture that were left behind, really as an excuse out of an explanation. Looking through the WOB's on this topic, that is just the common in-world theory, and that cognitive shadows are super complicated. Either way, when I told my friend that she said that something with as much investiture as Adonalsium must have left behind a Cognitive Shadow, saying "Where did all that investiture go then?" to which I responded "What do you think the Shards are?" and then I realized... The Shards. What if the Shards are in fact Cognitive Shadows left behind by Adonalsium, or at least the Intents are. According to the Coppermind, a Nahel bond between a Cognitive Shadow and a person is possible, and what if the Vessels are bonding in some strange, or maybe simple, who knows, way with the Cognitive Shadows of Adonalsium. Please let me know your thoughts.

Hey, all! im a fairly new cosmerenaut, but since first discovering Sanderson this past December, I’ve dove right in headfirst. I’ve just finished my first re-read of the stormlight archives and have read everything else, save Elantris. I am now re-reading Arcanum Unbounded, and was struck suddenly by an idea. Investiture is inherently drawn to the shape of a sword or bladed weapon. Adonalsium himself may have been such a weapon, or at least on occasion took that form. Some points to support this theory: - Radiants, so far as we are absolutely sure, left their abandoned radiantspren only in the form of a blade. I originally assumed that some of the fancier old fabrials were once radiantspren, but now doubt it. - We have seen Nightblood and Azure’s sword as recreations of shardblades, but no comparable version of shardplate using Breaths. - In Secret History, when Kelsier is telling Preservation to stab Eland, we get the following quote: (Fuzz reached to his belt, and his hand shimmered. The knife appeared there. He looked down at it, the blade glistening. “Old friend…” he whispered at it.) - In Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell, Silence describes her dagger as the symbol of the religion devoted to the God Beyond. A religion known across the cosmere. I would like to propose that Adonalsium took the form of a Sword or Dagger, and that all Investiture, if gathered in a large enough magnitude, tends towards the same form. When adonalsium shattered, the investiture reformed into 16 more bladed weapons, including Preservation’s knife. These were the original forms of the shards’ power. As the vessels power diffused throughout the systems they were investing, the tendency to hold this shape may have diminished. Did I miss anything?

In my reread of warbreaker I found this when Siri asks hoid about his story telling style With the use of gods instead of god could that mean that one of the shards was shattered on Yolen. Because Adonalsium is a single thing but could one of the other shards or something with closer power have died on Yolen?

So earlier I saw a thread about why Aluminum might be immune to investiture. This thread theory used the basis that Aluminum was Adonalsium's god metal, and it makes other investiture more balanced. This made me start thinking if it is possible that the reason Aluminum is immune to investiture is along the opposite side of the spectrum. What if Aluminum can't be affected by Investiture because it only exist in the Physical Realm. In the Cosmere everything exists in 3 realms, physical, spiritual, and cognitive (I am not going to go into detail of realmatic theory, you can probably find it on the wiki if you don't already no what it is) If aluminum only exists in the Physical realm it would mean that it can't be edited by any investiture, yet it would probably still be able to be burned as an allomantic metal. Not existing in the Cognitive or Spiritual realm immediately make it impossible to forge because Forgery changes the object in both of those realms, and without them, it would be no different than just stamping an object. Oathbringer Spoilers: Those 2 things are the easiest to explain why they would work with this theory. I had a little bit more trouble with Aons because their context with realmatics is a little unclear. Aons probably couldnt directly alter Aluminum because they would probably be altering items similar to the way soulcasting works. I couldn't find enough information as to how BioChromatic Breath works when awakening an object to draw any conclusions, but I think it is safe to assume that it has something to do with at least one of the other realms. As to why things like Nightblood and Shardblades can't cut aluminum, I can't find a good conclusion since so little is known about them, the best thing I can guess at actually involves another portion to this theory that I haven't even brought up yet. What if aluminum is the one thing in the Cosmere that isn't made of investiture? This would make it so that Nightblood cannot cut it (Nightblood consumes investiture), and probably shardblades as well. Also, shardblades supposedly cut out people's souls, which involves realmatics, which would make them incapable of cutting aluminum. As to why it can't be pushed/pulled on by allomancers, I can only assume that steelpushing/ironpulling involves at least one of the other two realms. Before I finish and let you tear holes in my theory, don't say that if aluminum isn't investiture than how did Adonalsium create it, I would like to point out that we don't know that Adonalsium created the Cosmere from nothing. Parts of this theory assume that Aluminum was in fact the only thing in the cosmere before adonalsium came along, and it also assumes that Adonalsium created the other 2 realms, but couldn't find a way to put aluminum in them. Alright, I am done now. Start tearing it up.

I am just finishing listening to The Hero of Ages and a particular line hit me - "If (Preservation) has not returned, then has, perhaps, someone else taken up his power to use in (this fight)? Is that not what your teachings say will happen? That which has been sundered must again begin to find its whole." Sazed is talking to the First Generation as they try to decide if it is time for the Resolution. But his words seem to encompass more than just the battle for the survival of the kandra, or even Scadrial, itself. It sounds like a clue as to a role Sazed may very well play in the larger scheme of the Cosmere. I know Hoid has often been referenced as having a much larger role in the greater events of the Cosmere, but we still do not know what his specific plans are. We do not know of a certainty tha Hoid will be "the hero" and fix everything, himself He has plans, but those plans remain in shadow for the most part. Then there is the fact that, next to the Stormlight Archive, the Mistborn series is the largest we know of in the works of the Cosmere. Brandon has shown how he likes to present his endgame in plain sight, even while it remains hidden without a bit of effort on the part of the reader to truly understand it. It is rather easy to see the foreshadowing that has since come to pass when we reread his books, and this has the same sort of feel to me as those other clues. So, in a nutshell, my theory is this - Sazed stands as a foil to Odium and will be the one to take up the power of Adonalsium, restoring all the Shards to One Purpose, become the new god of the Cosmere, beneath the One Beyond. Okay - let's rip this apart now! EDIT: I so forgot to mention the fact Sazed and the prophecies are both of the Worldbringers, and it has been made clear there is something very significant about that.

I asked some questions here: But as I figured, some fans other than Brandon himself may know some of the answers, I decided to post it here as well. Here is my post almost without change. I know most of this stuff would be RAFOed by Brandon if he were asked (which is quite logical); so, I wanted to hear about your guesses and points that I've certainly missed: " We have this phrase as a fact in the Coppermind: A: ...the main story of the cosmere occurs in a compact dwarf galaxy, meaning it has many fewer stars and systems than our galaxy. And this one: B: There are ten primary planets in the cosmere, sometimes called Shardworlds, So here's the questions: 1-Is the Cosmere that dwarf galaxy (with 10 primary planets and stuff) or the universe (its main story happen in A dwarf galaxy? and my other questions: 2-Surely there's much difference between the whole universe and one galaxy. There are at least an estimated 200 billion number of galaxies in our own universe. Is this universe (which is or contains Cosmere) the same as ours? Could Adonalsium be the craft of some ultimately advanced 3-Is Adonalsium related to other galaxies somehow? Does the God who is believed and is not one of the Shards have anything to do with them? Is the God other than Adonalsium have infinite powers too? 4-Did Adonalsium create all galaxies and the whole universe or just the first humans and some planets at least? If there are two creators with infinite power, it might be that none of them created all galaxies, cause I doubt a same universe can have two omnipotent creators. 5-If Adonalsium created human beings, do other races (non-humanoid, non-anthropomorphic ones) exist in the Cosmere? 6-Is Adonalsium really a God (like there's one omnipotent God in Christianity, Islam and Judaism) who created humankind or it's a representation of some ultimately evolved species and intelligence? I mean something like the First-Born that exist in A.C.Clarke's Space Odyssey series, ultimately-evolved species which gained non-corporeal forms over millions of years; or the Catalyst in Mass Effect video game, an AI of a billion years old." P.S. This was what I intended to ask Brandon with some slight changes and omitting unnecessary parts. I would be glad to know your comments on it (your guesses will also be appreciated). Sorry if some of these seem irrelevant questions. But I was curious about all these stuff and itched to ask it somewhere!

so I have been doing some speculation with my friend @Nohadon and we came up with a couple of questions about the shards. what if, before adonalysm came to life, all of the shards were separate beings and then for some reason all the vessels (or one of the vessels) decided to try and merge together to see what would happen which in the end resulted in the birth of adonalysm. some things that might support this are the different personalities of the shards such as ruin and preservation. Another thing is how easily the shards fused together when Sazed touched them and how well the powers went together as Sazed mentioned.

So I know there's a theory going that when Dalinar united the three realms, and Odium said "we killed you", he was referring to Adonalsium rather than Honor; that somehow (either in the spiritual realm or the beyond) Odium saw Adonalsium in the perpendicularity Dalinar created. I won't go into it all here, but I was thinking about the letters from various shards to Hoid in the epigraphs and started wondering about Hoid's motives. The letters seem to imply that Hoid has contacted multiple shards of Adonalsium and asked them to assist in the conflict on Roshar. On the surface it would appear that he wants their assistance in stopping Rayse, but is it really that straightforward? It seems very un-Hoidlike to simply ask directly for help, and he even contacted Autonomy (who he isn't on good terms with) and Harmony (who he doesn't really know personally). Dalinar's power allows him to bind together the spren of something that has been shattered but remember being whole, and we know from the Stormfather's reaction (and Odium's) that his ability to manifest a perpendicularity is unprecendented, and makes it possible that Dalinar has access to LOT of power in this department. I think it's possible Dalinar could restore a splintered Shard in the right circumstances, but could he do more and restore Adonalsium itself? If this is the case, and if Hoid knew this, then his attempt to lure the other shards to Roshar could actually be part of a plan to get Dalinar to "Unite" the shards, restoring Adonalsium. This is just wild speculation, I'm not actually 100% sold on the whole "Odium saw Adonalsium". I do think Hoid's letters tie in nicely with it, but I would also like to discuss some evidence that contradicts it. It's still quite possible that Odium was referring to Honor when he said "we killed you", the "we" implying that Odium wasn't acting alone when he splintered Honor. If this is the case, my money would be on him working with Autonomy, after all we do have this epigraph... ...which seems to suggest Autonomy's involvement. So what do people think? Was Odium referring to Adonalsium or Honor when he said "we killed you"?

In Secret History we see that Kelsier could not connected to Preservation without aid. And when he did so he was still unable to wield it well. I assume that over time his mind would move more in line with Preservation and be more capable with its power. So with that in mind, how did Ati connect to the Ruin Shard to begin with. Hoid said that he was a kind and generous person (this doesn't sound like a person who was attuned to ruin). did he have help to Connect to its power. And if so did he have trouble controlling it until he was changed by the shard's intent.

"No!" Odium screamed. He stepped forward. "No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!" Dalinar stood within a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren, One hand at each side, clutching the realm's that made reality. Forgivin. The pain he'd so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own. These Words... Are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done? Odium stumbled back. "Kill Him, Attack him!" - Oathbringer Chapter 119 Unity page 1139 I don't think that Odium is referring to Honor here. First is that he says "We killed you." implying that he worked with some one. While its true that we don't know how he is shattering other shards the implication of we is a group and I doubt from his behavior that one of his mortal servants counts as we. After all he tries to get Dalinar to go give up his pain and ownership of his wife's death. If my analysis of his personality is correct then referring to Honor here would say "I killed you.". Second is that his reaction is to strong for another shard being who he refers to. If it was I would expect a line more along the lines of "I shattered you once before." or a "Why do you think that power can help you?" something to undermine and distract the person ascending and make attacking them easier on a psychological level. This reaction is more along the lines that what ever Dalinar is doing here is beyond or outside his expectations for the death in question. 3rd is the gloryspren. Honor or some kind of dutyspren make more sense if its Honors power he is tapping how ever Gloryspren are something that even Sylphrena says she is annoyed by as they "Don't do ANYTHING" . I would love to know if gloryspren existed before Honor and cultivation arrival. Taken together the imply something more than a Well of Ascension type effect based around the remnants of honors splintered shard. So to present my case. We know that Roshar and the first spren were all created by Adonalsium. we also know that in this scene Dalinar refers to holding both the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in his hands prior to uniting them in the pillar of light. Finally we see that the Stormfather is shocked by the acceptance of these words as Dalinars next oath implying that he does not understand how or why they work as an oath. Finally there are the dreams that are not coming from the storm father dreams of piece in an abstract and personal to Dalinars life way. I think that the assumption that this is all the power of a Bondsmith is incorrect. That none of the others Bondsmiths could have done something like this and that its not the fact that he bonded the Stormfather. I think that Odium was so horrified because this is something of Adonalsium could have done. Maybe did do. A primal power of all 16 shards before their division that he has no counter for and no understand as to how it could be possible without the full powers of Adonalsium.

I'm not sure if anyone has thought about or come up with something like this already, but from the discussion I read through no one had a very feasible name created for the “survival shard.” Brandon has stated that it just wants to hide and survive (the probable intent of the shard) and that it would be partnered with devotion to do something good. With that in mind, I was thinking of something along the lines of either salvation or protection. Both of these things I feel could partner with devotion nicely to form something similar to defense. I just wanted to rekindle this conversation and try to have a look at it from a different point of view. Thanks!

So I just discovered the wob section on coppermind and found a reference to a new shard in a late November tour for Oathbringer. I searched the coppermind wiki in the shards page and could not find any reference if this is truly confirmed. Could someone correct me if maybe I'm reading this wrong and it's not a new shard?

I apolgise if anyone has already mentioned this, but I didn't see it anywhere on the Oathbringer spoiler board. Also, some of my cosmere knowledge is questionable so I don't know if I have enough information to go on, but regardless, I must push on: Basically just after Dalinar briefly opens Honor's perpendicularity, Odium exclaims about having killed him already, and later in the scene where Taravangian and Odium meet, Odium remarks that Dalinar wasn't meant to Ascend (with a capital letter, the same way Sazed is spoken about when he became the holder of Harmony). Could this mean that Dalinar now holds Honor?

Potential Oathbringer Spoilers So this is very much a guess, and I doubt it's true. But could there be another Shardholder on Roshar, influencing Dalinar? We know he's had visions that do not have to do with Honor's influence. We know that whatever Dalinar became, Odium was certainly surprised by it. And at the end of Oathbringer, he saw a light that Navani couldn't. If this is true, could there be a sort of Enigma or Mystery Shard attempting to work against Odium? One whose influence is far more sublte than Honor or Odium? Maybe a Shard that held such secrets and power that Odium teamed up with another Shard (hence "we killed you"), to attempt to Splinter. Maybe he was talking to this specific Shard when Dalinar declared "I am Unity". Once again I doubt this is true. My current belief is that some form of Adonalsium is influencing Dalinar, especially with the "Unite Them" repetition for him. But what do you guys think?

Hey, guys! More for kicks than anything else, I have a "theory" for you. The different parts of it have been disproved half a million times, but I'm putting it out here anyway since it is kind of fun. Hoid is Alcatraz. Brandon Sanderson is Adonalsium. Brandon Sanderson was "shattered", or maybe " murdered", by his sixteen most prominent fans, and now one of his creations is trying to put him back together again so that more stories will be written. Disproven by countless WoBs and common sense, Alcatraz's world isn't cosmere, by imma ignore that. Alcatraz isn't a nice person, but neither is Hoid. They've got a similar sense of humor and snazzy/sassy style. We know almost nothing about Hoid, so who knows what we could make his back story. And Brandon Sanderson being Adonalsium? Both created the cosmere. Duh. Here it goes. Brandon Sanderson created his stories, like he usually does, some connecting, some not. Alcatraz versus the Evil Librarians is Hoid's TRUE back story, though only Brandon knows. Funny, poignant, and sad, sassy Alcatraz quickly grows into the Hoid we know, with his character arc stretching past the known books. And then, right after Sanderson finishes writing his last cosmere book, he is killed by sixteen angry fans because it IS the last book. After they steal the amazing creativity power that is held by Brandon, Shard stuff happens, cosmere, blah blah blah. Knowing that the murder of Adonalsium is unfair, Hoid/Alcatraz sets out to put him back together for one last story. The cosmere then becomes a cyclic storyline, restarting every time it ends, with the endpoint being Hoid/Alcatraz putting Adonalsium/Brandon back together. The book Brandon writes after being put back together is the story of Hoid putting everything back together. This silly theory ignores some very obvious facts, like that Alcatraz isn't cosmere, that Yolen would have to be Earth, and that someone would actually want to kill Brandon. What do you all think? Bring up some info that disproves - or better yet, DOES prove - that this is the true cosmere plotline. Have a nice day!

Potential Oathbringer Spoilers So this is very much a crackpot theory, and I highly doubt this is actually the case. But let me explain. Brandon has stated that gender does not need to be associated much with Bavadin, stating that entire Pantheons are in fact Autonomy's Shardholder. And in the second letter in Oathbringer, it is assumed that Bavadin wrote it. The way she/he referred to itself was as "We", due to the various personalities it seems to have split itself into with its potential empire of planets. This is very much a guess, but could Bavadin have had a split personality disorder? And when Bavadin ascended, these different personalities multiplied into the different avatars that now rule and are worshipped across the cosmere. Could this have been a side effect of Ascending, or is it just something that is potentially unique to the Autonomy Shard? Thoughts?

Oathbringer Spoiler Warnings So we know that the Shardholders shattered Adonalsium for a variety of reasons. One of them being that it was the only good option left to them. We know from the first letter in Oathbringer that the Shards were meant to settle alone, and that no good could come of two being together. We also know that Odium has murdered 3 of the Shards that have violated this agreement, and intends to murder the 4th (Cultivation). Ambition could just have been Rayse's personal hatred towards her, or the Intent of her Shard being potentially dangerous. So could Adonalsium be the true cosmere antagonist, and the Shardholders are trying to prevent him from being resurrected? Feel free to discuss below.

So just out of pure curiosity, out of all the Shards that are currently named, which one would you most want to take up and for what reasons? If you were in the cosmere where would you go, what would you do, and why would you do it? Feel free to discuss below.

I've been reading about Adonalsium and I've seen a lot of theories or facts about how he/it was destroyed and who did it and stuff like that. But I haven't seen or read anything about why he/it was destroyed. Maybe there just isn't enough evidence to have a discussion about it and the topic has been abandoned to the dark recesses of the 17th Shard. However, I think the "why" of its destruction was more important that the "how". A simple explanation could be that the 17 who destroyed it just wanted the power, but I feel like this isn't the right answer. I'd like to hear your ideas or knowledge of why he/it was destroyed. On the Coppermind Wiki it just says "For unknown reasons at least some of the 16 who shattered Adonalsium did so believing it was the final option left to them, suggesting its power may have been targeted as a last ditch attempt at self-preservation." so maybe you could just give your theories as to why he/it was destroyed. Looking forward to your answers and theories!

Is there a reason behind why Adonalsium was split into 16 Shards? (other than there being 16 people - technically 17, but Hoid doesn't count since he didn't take a Shard). Also, does every Shard have a specific number? e.g. Odium = 9, Honor = 10, Preservation = 16

I can't back this up with direct quotes, although some of the theorizing done in this thread, which is also pretty light on evidence. I'm sure this is unoriginal but I wanted to pound it into steel so that my brain doesn't Ruin it later. I think that pre-Shattered Adonalsium was devoid of consciousness, or at least devoid of any express personality traits or intents. It's motivation (or I guess technically intent, although that's shaky) was to create. If he were a shard, his intent would be "Creation," but there would be no subjectivity to it (unlike "Honor" which is an invented concept. Why then, if Adonalsium lacked personality and intent before, do its Shards have such varied and often fanatical personalities now? I believe that this is a bit like a reverse-Harmony effect. When Ruin and Preservation were "merged, but not completely merged, but still pretty much merged" (relevant thread exists, but theory author is too lazy to find link), Harmony became hard pressed to do anything consequential, since he had opposing intents. Now while we have WoB stating that not all shards form opposite pairings, it is safe to assume that even if Adonalsium consisted only of currently known shards (Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, Dominion, Devotion, Endowment, Ambition, Ruin, Preservation, and/or Harmony) they would have a pretty hard time doing anything, let alone CREATING anything, that would suit all of their intents in equal measure. So, when Adonalsium was composed, presumably in equal parts, of all of different intents, they could have cancelled out and created an emotion- and personality-neutral being that simply existed and brought new things into existence. There IS an obvious problem with this, which is that according to my own logic, Adonalsium would have been incapable of creating almost anything because of his internal conflict, but there are explanations that I'm sure could handwave this problem away.

I am not fully acquainted with all the available information about the Cosmere from the related books, so I would like to have something cleared up. From what I understand, most or all of the Cosmere has been created at least partially by Adonalsium, as were humans. Since these Shards of Adonalsium are natural forces with Intent in the Cosmere, I would assume that these Shards are the only (or the main) driving forces for all events associated with them. For example, all processes that are tied to life, development, decay and death in the entire Cosmere would be influenced by Shards such as Preservation, Cultivation and Ruin. A world like Roshar has life forms that undergo the cycles which are conceptually related to Ruin/Preservation (Harmony) despite the location of the vessel(s) of these Shards. How is it that these processes can proceed on other worlds like Roshar, while facing fundamental changes on the world hosting the Shard's vessels (Scadrial) during the events of the first Mistborn trilogy? Doesn't that imply that Shards are only secondary factors to reality in all the Realms, and that this reality could exist without the Shards? Thanks

Hello everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. Love these forums. I have a theory that I think hasn't been considered yet by the 17th sharders here yet. What if the Sibling that the Stormfather mentions is a spren from adonalsium itself? I think that the three godspren that the bondsmiths bond to are NOT related to Odium whatsoever, because why would a spren that represents Odium as a god want to work with the Knights Radiant? We know that the original spren of Roshar came from adonalsium, and that the Singers predate the humans and may have predated Honor and Cultivation on Roshar. Who did they worship before Honor and Cultivation? We know that the original rhythms are related to the spiritual realm directly. So perhaps they worshipped adonalsium itself? We also know that Ash swears in Adonalsium's name during the battle of Thaylen City, so the heralds at least know of Adonalsium as well. So I believe that the third godspren represents a god, but not Odium. Adonalsium.

Wisdom?