Seloun

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Everything posted by Seloun

  1. Jasnah, or at least the concept of Jasnah, is probably my favorite character in Stormlight Archive. It's great to see a rational character who can actually logically justify their actions. My main issue with her is when she doesn't really do a good job of demonstrating her intelligence. I thought TWoK did a very good job for the most part, but she makes some questionable decisions during Oathbringer. The mark of being intelligent is not so much about bring right frequently, but being able to accept new information (and thus being able to estimate how much information you actually have): Which is the perfect quote for her, but she doesn't necessarily do a good job of living up to that in Oathbringer. Still, that definition is awesome, and is a pretty good example why Jasnah is awesome. Still, I wish I could reminder her to check her error bars.
  2. Since it turns Listeners into not-Listeners... Deafening could work. Doesn't sounds very lyrical, though. Anything that sounds like cutting off from music might also work. How about The Dissonance? (a la Recreance)
  3. Perhaps the source of the gem is important somehow. None of the humans appear to know about the gemhearts (which is interesting considering Kaladin's harvesting of the Parshendi bones in TWoK) so obviously none of the modern fabrials could incorporate them. While Voidspren/spren in general might be able to bond with anything with a gemheart (e.g. the spren associated with/apparently leaving the greatshells) the expression of the bonding is presumably different depending on what the spren bonds with. Or possibly gems from different sources can bond with different kinds of spren.
  4. Probably the most relevant quote for this is the following: This part is a bit confusing at first since at this point in the book the reader doesn't know what exactly happened when Dalinar first won Oathbringer; the flashback implies that he killed the heir for it. It's only later that the reader learns that Dalinar took the sword, but let the boy live. The 'oath' is likely Dalinar's oath not to usurp Gavilar's throne. While the Stormfather does say immediately afterwards that he knows of no way to restore the blade, this passage seems like a pretty big clue (also, the name - Oathbringer - is probably a big hint). Presumably it'll be necessary for the wielder of the blade to essentially assume the Ideals that were sworn by the original Radiant (which might make restoring e.g. Lightweaver blades extremely difficult). This isn't a particularly new theory, but there's been many theories on this, and this passage suggests that this is likely the mechanism to restore the dead spren. Assuming Adolin's blade is an Edgedancer blade, likely he'll have to assume Ideals similar to what Lift has sworn. If an external force is needed to revive the spren, I think a Bondsmith is probably the most likely candidate (much as how Ishar appears to have codified the bonds in the first place); I'm inclined to guess that it's not necessary, though.
  5. In WoR, Kaladin asks a pretty important question of Syl: Moash in Oathbringer is the beginning of the answer to that question. In effect, he is Kaladin from two books back, and the scene at the Oathgate is his stand at the Tower. As mentioned elsewhere on the thread, Moash's relationship to his crew is quite similar to Kaladin's relationship to Bridge 4, with many nearly direct parallels. I don't think this is a coincidence - this is instead a call back to the question in the quote above. With respect to Moash's attitude/behavior - it's probably a little unfair to compare Moash to Kaladin as he is now; among other things, Kaladin has a much stronger support team compared to TWoK (Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan, etc.) versus Moash who is essentially isolated (much as Kaladin was in TWoK in Sadeas's camp). Kaladin was quite defeatist in TWoK as well, remember, and much of his early reasons for trying to keep Bridge Four alive was somewhat selfish. And while Moash's issue right now appears to be not taking responsibility unlike everything-is-my-fault Kaladin, underlying both of their issues is self-hate. When Moash first intervenes for the Parshmen, he says: Shorly before this passage is the part where Moash seems to be disavowing responsibility for his actions: I interpret this as more of a coping mechanism for where Moash is right now. Moash still has an ideal (or perhaps an Ideal) about what he thinks society should be like, and he's not afraid to hold the nominally superior society to that standard. Specifically, when the society fails to meet his expectations, he doesn't alter his expectations - instead, he takes action to make that society closer to his ideal. If Moash is really just simply following directions, and if he was simply disavowing all responsibility for his actions, I don't see why he would have intervened for the group of Parshmen; he would have accepted it as being what the superior culture did, and that the fate of the Parshmen wasn't his responsibility. Moash has made a lot of mistakes and he certainly has issues. His internal monologue sounds like he's taken the easy way out and denied responsibility for his actions. Yet his choices with the Parshmen belie that initial interpretation. His salute to Kaladin is an acknowledgement of where he's come from, and that he is where he is due to his own choices. In that, he's not really that different from Kaladin near the end of TWoK.
  6. There's a passage near the end of the book that immediately bugged me from initial reading: The obvious interpretation is that there should be a representative of each of the Orders here. The KR that are represented for sure are: Bondsmith - Dalinar Windrunner - Kaladin Skybreaker - Szeth Edgedancer - Lift Lightweaver - Shallan Elsecaller - Jasnah Truthwatcher - Renarin These are the 7 Radiants Dalinar appears to be referring to, leaving Stoneward, Willshaper, and Dustbringer. Malata is pretty clearly not being counted here. We know there's actually a 10th that Dalinar isn't aware of at the battle (Venli). So the question becomes: which slots do Venli, Taln and Ash fit? (As an aside - I did consider the possibility that one of the existing KR are in the 'wrong spot', but the only candidate for which that seems potentially likely is Renarin; for this argument I'm going to neglect this as a likely possibility) Taln seems pretty obviously the Stoneward. I think Venli is probably the Willshaper, as the spren she's bonded to doesn't look like what I'd imagine an 'ashspren' to look like, and she fits the epigraph description of Willshapers pretty well (though it also says Willshapers are pretty varied in the first place). So that leaves Ash. While the most obvious Order to associate with Ash is Lightweavers, Shallan is already in that spot. We also know that most of the Heralds probably didn't join their own Orders: The wording is interesting because Nale doesn't say that none of the other Heralds became KR, but specifically that they didn't join their own Order. While this also would technically disassociate Taln with Stonewards, Nale allows for room for not knowing about it, or (more likely) the Heralds that did join the KR (including Nale) probably did so after the last Desolation (which obviously would mean Taln didn't have an opportunity). That said, she's probably not actually bonded to a spren at this point given Baxil's interlude: So presumably she doesn't actually have a Shardblade, but she thinks she could get one, which suggests she's not actively bonded (no Shardblade, but doesn't see any reason she couldn't use a dead one). I'm not sure if this would preclude her from having previously been bonded, however. We also know that Ash's behavior is pretty destructive with regards to images of herself, as well demonstrated in pretty much every scene with her. This is quite anomalous from what we'd expect from Lightweaver behavior (artists) but fits pretty well with what seems to be pretty typical Dustbringer attitude. Finally, her name is 'Ash'! Okay, so not really evidence, but it'd be rather ironically fitting. So my hypothesis is that Ash is the Dustbringer representative - either she was one, or she's going to be the 'main' Dustbringer of the series. The other possibilities are that it's not necessarily one of each Order (though it otherwise fits so well that it's hard to imagine otherwise) or Dalinar is looking for a pattern where there isn't one (obviously because she's not actually a Lightweaver...). It seems like an odd scene to throw in either of those cases, however.
  7. Those were two aspects of Jasnah that I also thought weren't portrayed very well. The first one was especially galling (it seemed to be in there just to contrast Windrunner vs. Elsecaller philosophies) especially because it seemed so out of place for Jasnah to go for such an ad hominem attack. Given the number of unknowns, it should be pretty hard for Jasnah to simply rule out possible courses of action like she does here; she does a really bad job of checking her error bars in this scene. So yeah, this one is a bad one for sure. The second is a bit more excusable I think, considering how Shallan was the last time Jasnah saw her; even learning of what Shallan has accomplished in the meantime wouldn't necessarily change how Jasnah views Shallan (Jasnah has no context - most likely she only heard about Shallan's artistic skills figuring out the location of the Oathgate, and remember that Jasnah doesn't know anything related to the Ghostbloods or her dealings with Tyn). Jasnah does seem to reconsider based on new data: It's worth noting though that many of Jasnah's concerns about Shallan's behavior is pretty reasonable: Jasnah's actually put a good deal of trust in Shallan, considering her attempted theft, and her suspicions about Shallan having other secrets, potentially personally hazardous to Jasnah, is absolutely accurate, as we know. Shallan is a prodigy, but she's not an expert in all areas she wants to be an expert in, and her behavior in Oathbringer is really extremely erratic. The way Jasnah tries to deal with Shallan is not just from the perspective of a teacher, but someone trying to manage a potential threat. Finally, Jasnah even admits that she's not necessarily a good teacher; in a way Shallan ends up being a pretty good ward for her precisely because Shallan turns out to be so personally driven. And there were many good scenes with Jasnah, regardless of the issues above (pretty much every other time she shows up, really): - Learning she has offline backups. This was awesome. The only way it could have been better was finding out that she has version control. - Consoling Dalinar: - Spanreed chatrooms (complete with GIRL). They've literally invented IRC. - Thaylen City. No selling the two Fused without even looking at them. She's probably not the one to go up against Amaram because it'd have lasted about five seconds. Basically, it's not that everything with Jasnah was perfect, but that she's well-characterized as the most intelligent person in the series, and she gets a lot of good scenes. Everyone gets bad scenes; if that disqualified a character from being likeable, no one would qualify. I think the main issue is that despite Jasnah being in Oathbringer as a POV character, she's still relatively minor - she's really only in two of the five parts - so she doesn't quite get as much time to shine.
  8. I really hope there's more to it. However, it's hard to imagine Nale and the Stormfather both are clueless about this considering both literally lived through it, and in Nale's case, almost certainly was directly involved. ...That said, there are some faint hopes: - We never actually see what Nale told Szeth. It might be something more involved that still leads to the conclusion that the Parshendi law is the rightful law. - The Stormfather seems to only remember as Dalinar learns - so he can provide confirmation but not necessarily volunteer too much new information. - The primary source that's revealed to the characters is NOT specifically about the Recreance (being written well before that), but just the fact that the humans are actually the invaders (with Odium).
  9. - Moash: I presume it's only usable by a human. - Vivenna: She specifically says it's a sword that she's chasing (and the person who took it): It might be Vasher, though her reaction if that's her actual quarry is a bit odd: While she says she's looking for him, she doesn't offer to go with them to find him, making me believe that he's not her primary target. - Cryptic: Not sure why it would go back to the Cognitive because Elhokar died. No reason to think that's the case (not sure the spren would have enough self-awareness to even do so). What would be crazy is if this was actually Tien's spren who ended up following Kaladin to Elhokar. - Elhokar's son: Magic. Probably literally, using the last bit of their connection to Kaladin's Windrunner powers. Being able to fly makes getting away somewhat easier. - 10th person: Almost certainly Venli, who was there but Dalinar didn't know about. - Szeth's hiring: AFAIK Dalinar already knows. Taravangian implies that he was forced to pre-emptively admit his objectives to Dalinar near the end because Szeth did or would in short order tell Dalinar what he knew about Taravangian. - Third black spren: Um, no idea on this one. I must have missed it. - How will fourth book be even better: by including more scenes with Jasnah.
  10. That's actually evidence for Tien being the one who bonded a spren, as the actual quote is (em mine) Tien certainly died well before Helaran arrived. However, this does suggest it was still the Skybreakers (just not Helaran) who were responsible for Tien's death... ...which just made me realize the potential rage Kaladin might have when he learns about it. Wow.
  11. Given what we know, I'd have to go with the obvious solution, though I think 'we' is probably very inclusive (probably including humankind in general). I have to assume the 'you' refers to Dalinar in some sense, since the quote continues as: Odium certainly seems to be referring to Dalinar when he says 'kill him', and the text doesn't seem to indicate that Odium's focus has shifted between the lines (it's clear Odium's attention is rather focused here). I don't think it's necessary to proscribe a deep meaning to 'we', either - when people were united it seems like Honor was able to deal with Odium pretty handily, so I think it's natural for Odium to say 'we' killed Honor. The Stormfather describes how he restores Stormlight in exactly the same terms the Perpendicularity is created: I'm not sure that Dalinar is summoning the Perpendicularity in the storm so much as creating a new one (that's what the description certainly sounds like). But the original Honor's Perpendicularity is probably the storm, which is why it's considered to be unreliable:
  12. I always felt that the strongest evidence for Tien possibly being a proto-Lightweaver was the chasm scene, where Kaladin directly compares the effects Shallan and Tien both have/had on him: (em mine) And note that Tien was a fantastic artist (also, see the similarities of Tien's effect on Kaladin near the end of the quote): There's very few people who affect Kaladin in this fashion; in particular, Syl has a lot of trouble trying to cheer Kaladin up. Shallan's tendency to make people think better about themselves is put in terms of soulcasting: Contrast with: The way Pattern describes it makes me think the 'cheerleading' part really is related to the combination of the Lightweaver surges (Transformation and Illumination). All in all, I think there's a lot of evidence for Tien being a Lightweaver or at least a Lightweaver candidate.
  13. It's worth noting that the future that's blocked from Odium appears to be due to Renarin: Presumably this is due to Renarin's bond with the corrupted spren somehow causing Odium to be unable to predict Renarin's influence (i.e. why the events near end of Oathbringer did not correspond to Renarin's visions). So it's not likely to be a direct effect of the Diagram. It's always possible to postulate that Taravangian is/was playing an even longer game than what we see - the problem is that you can always suggest that. For example, it's possible that all of the 'errors' in the Diagram are intentionally put there to make sure the people who are trying to interpret the Diagram act in the proper manner (e.g. Taravangian's attempt to kill Dalinar is actually what causes Kaladin to advance as a KR/Dalinar to go on the proper path). The issue is that you can always claim that (just as planned!) and while in this case it's somewhat more likely than normal to be true, in a sense it's a cheat, since effectively it'll be justifying his actions post facto. That said, the words that show up for Taravangian to read seems to suggest that at the very least, this particular contingency was planned for to some extent. Whether this outcome is what the Diagram expected, who knows? (which is why I rather dislike this kind of reasoning, since it really doesn't tell us much about what's going to happen)
  14. Right, I don't suggest that the bond is what actually Splintered Honor (Odium also states that 'we killed you' to Dalinar while he's channeling the Perpendicularity). I'm suggesting that Honor may have been bonded with the Heralds in a similar fashion as the spren are bonded to the KR, and Honor's apparent loss of faculties during the Recreance may have been due to the same reason as e.g. Syl and Pattern's loss of faculties - their bondmates started to stray from their oaths. Basically this is in reaction to 'why did Honor apparently go crazy during the Recreance?' I'm suggesting it's due to the Heralds, and that if it works like the spren bond, figuring out how to restore the spren bond might also lead to figuring out how to re-form Honor, or his Shard.
  15. I think there may be a parallel between the dead spren and Honor's death. Specifically, I think Honor (and his Shard) was essentially the spren of the Oathpact bond with the Heralds. Honor apparently losing his mind near the Recreance is somewhat reminiscent with what happens with Syl and Pattern when Kaladin and Shallan stray from their oaths. If this analogue is accurate, figuring out how to restore the dead KR spren may be the key to figuring out how to restore Honor (or at least his Shard). I think what Dalinar has right now is essentially the Honor Shard equivalent of a dead Shardblade - still powerful, but missing the essential nature of what really made it special.
  16. it's worth noting that we do have a pretty good case study of another, similar triangle: Gavilar - Navani - Dalinar. And we know roughly how that ended up. So, who knows? That said, I think it'd cheapen a lot of the decisions made near the end of the book if this gets revisited too soon. Specifically, Kaladin says he doesn't think he was actually in love with Shallan: That someone being, of course, Tien, which does make the scene rather more ambiguous. However, I think we're supposed to interpret the little scene immediately after with the color changing rock as Kaladin learning to cheer himself up at times. Ultimately, while I think the relationships here were handled kind of poorly, I think I'd rather the parties stick to their guns and tie up this loose end. Frankly, the thing that irritated me the most is that the whole secret about Helaran's death meant absolutely nothing - and that the secret meant nothing is really what convinces me that this is the actual resolution.
  17. I'm inclined to say that it does have to do with triaging. If we accept that the windspren start showing up around Kaladin when he's getting close to the Fourth Ideal - The Second and Third Ideals are very inclusive - protecting those that can't protect themselves, and protecting everyone despite his dislike for them. However, this inclusiveness leads Kaladin to start questioning the potential conflicts of Ideals starting in WoR, and it comes to a head during the Kholinar Oathgate scene: And this results in everyone Kaladin was trying to protect here dying - in trying to save them all, he saves none of them. It's interesting to note that Kaladin seems to make an assumption that he has to kill people to protect here; I'm not sure if this is Kaladin's mistake or the writing, but he doesn't seem to consider potentially non-lethal solutions, e.g. lashings. Of course it probably would be a very short term solution if he couldn't get people to disengage, and he probably still wouldn't have been able to save everyone. It might also be representative that protecting people non-lethally is probably easier if you have Shardplate instead of just a Shardblade. So the Fourth Ideal is probably some kind of priority or exception handling so the Windrunner doesn't blue screen (so to speak) as Kaladin does here. That said, I think there are probably multiple variants that the Oaths will accept. We know that there's a lot of leeway in how the Oaths can be interpreted and accepted (even from the Skybreakers, who likely have the most stringent requirements on their Oaths), and among other things we see Dalinar apparently make up his own (while this is probably somewhat related to his powers as a Bondsmith, the Stormfather is surprised by Dalinar's Oath and what it lets him do - presumably the Stormfather already knows what a Bondsmith should be able to do). So it may be that Kaladin won't be able to accept the 'canon' version of the Oath and find a different way to do his triaging. The Oathgate scene shows that Kaladin has to find some kind of solution, even if it's not the seemingly callous solution the old Windrunners apparently ended up with. It's worth noting that the optimal solution to the problem with the Fused (though perhaps not Odium in general) is probably not to restore the Oathpact, but to convince the parshmen stop sacrificing themselves to them. Everyone is worried about the ability of the Fused to return, not realizing or knowing that they need willing volunteers to do so. I don't think simply choosing a side is the ultimate 'right' answer for Kaladin, even if he does need a way to make choices when necessary. Instead, I think his job will be to find a third option.
  18. The Heralds. They have so, so, so very much explaining to do to everyone about pretty much everything. If the Vorin church had a conniption dealing with Dalinar, how the heck are they going to reconcile the truth about the Heralds? I can't imagine the amount of brain break when they find out that Jezrien was a drunk begger in Kholinar for the last however many years. Despite their clear limitations (they couldn't find a solution to the fundamental problem, after all) the Heralds represent a staggeringly important resource about both history and just how things work. No more trying to reinvent the wheel with the KR, the surges, or Odium and his forces.
  19. oathbringer spoilers

    I'd assume it's related to the Heralds breaking/greatly straining the Oathpact. The Heralds also seem to have gone mad (though perhaps they're recovering now) some time after the end of the previous Desolation. Presumably Honor was somehow linked with the Heralds, or affected by their condition in some way. One possibility is that Honor essentially proxied himself through the Honorblades with the Heralds. Much as how the KR spren 'die' or 'break' when their bondmate breaks their oath, Honor may have been bonded in a similar way with the Heralds. Basically Honor might have been the spren-equivalent for the Heralds, and when the Heralds started to act outside of their oaths (possibly not just the Oathpact) it weakened him and his faculties much like what happens to Syl in WoR. It'd be interesting to consider - if we pursue this line of reasoning further - if the means of resurrecting the dead spren (much as Adolin seems to be doing) could also essentially result in resurrecting of Honor or otherwise re-forming his Shard. If Adolin succeeds, it could be a blueprint for something a lot bigger...
  20. Seems like Venli fits much better than Renarin, certainly. Venli even references her failing as being ambition (or thirst for power), while Renarin is probably the furthest thing from it. Seeking freedom (from Odium) also fits her quite well. I'm not sure that Renarin is really seeking 'freedom'; if anything it's almost the opposite (he wants to fit in).
  21. The main feeling I got by the end of the book was that it felt like most of the serious mysteries or hanging threads were 'solved', and many of them in a somewhat unsatisfying way: It's almost like the end of a trilogy instead of being in the middle of the series. - Helaran's death did... what, exactly? This definitely ended with a whimper. - The love triangle seemed to add very little to the story, besides emphasizing Shallan's split nature. There were plenty of other more interesting ways to show that, though. Combines with Helaran being a non-issue. - Cause of the Recreance - which, despite what Taravangian seems to have thought, accomplishes basically nothing. It's especially egregious since Kaladin's early experience already leads him to look for a way for both sides to coexist. I have to hope there's something more to this that we're missing, because as it stands it's a puzzler. But it's written as if the mystery is completely solved, based on how Taravangian/Nalan seem to treat the 'revelation'. Nalan's reaction is especially weird, since according to the Stormfather, this 'truth' was rediscovered multiple time (which makes it mind boggling how Nalan could not have known about it pre-Recreance). - Taravangian's position is pretty well established. - Elhokar's death seems to resolve a lot of issues and in a lot of ways seems to close out Moash's storyline, despite the events at the end of the book. At this point he's almost a new character. - Likewise Venli's arc seems pretty clear at this point. - The Unbound seem well characterized now, without many 'big' mysteries remaining, as well as rest of Odium's forces. - Speaking of Odium, now that we've gotten a fair bit of scenes with him, it feels like a lot of the mystery/fear is gone. Especially as we see some of his limitations and restrictions near the end (particularly Taravangian's conversation). - Nightwatcher/Cultivation scene also establishes them to some degree, their relationship, and what the Old magic is about. - Dalinar, of course. Pretty much answers everything about his past. - Also about This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules is going on with Renarin. - Whole thing about squires/Radiants since we see Skybreakers and Bridge Four developing. - Jasnah's sections seem to answer a lot of questions. - Much better grasp of how things work in the Cognitive Realm. - And all the main characters are kind of assembled at this point, except maybe Venli, and even she's connected to Dalinar at this point (or maybe Connected). I'm not saying everything is answered (among other things, spren reproduction, how the Oathpact really, truly works and A Surprise Pattern Appears! at the end) but overall the remaining issues feel a lot less epic. Probably the one big outstanding thing is what the Ghostblood really are, but they had so little impact on this book that it almost feels like an afterthought. Nonetheless, much of the book was still quite, quite good. My favorite section is probably the infiltration of Kholinar - it really showcases the characters involved. I like Elhokar's character development (especially how parts of it doesn't develop), and how Kaladin always seems to end up adopting a band of misfits and leading them (almost supernatural...). Adolin's likeability almost seems like it might be a trait (if he's a proto-Edgedancer, maybe it's something they have in general). Also really loved most of Jasnah's scenes. Appropriately badass, though I think in a couple of places I think her harshness was overly played up - specifically the scene where she argues with Kaladin about potentially making peace with the Parshmen. She seems to dismiss this idea rather quickly despite not having a lot of information (and as the reader we know this is a pretty obvious solution to the Fused problem, given the Fused require willing vessels to return). Still, she demonstrates Quadratic Wizards, Linear Fighters pretty nicely at Thaylen City and by not killing Renarin she may have long-term screwed up Odium's planning capability - so, badass.
  22. The given reason... doesn't really make any sense, or at least loses a huge amount of impact from the perspective of the reader given Kaladin's experiences earlier in the book. Even without knowing the 'reason', Kaladin is already looking to find a way to live peacefully with the Parshmen; knowing the truth about which side is native doesn't really seem to change anything. And regardless if the reason was sufficiently compelling, it's unclear why it would provoke the sort of reaction we see from the KR at Feverstone. What's also strange is how Nale seems to interpret it. The Stormfather says that the Recreance was not the first time this came up: So it's really hard to imagine that Nale didn't know about it before the Recreance (I guess it's theoretically possible?). So why wasn't he working with the Listeners long before? Did he really only find out during the Recreance, or is this another aspect of his madness? I suppose Nale (and other Heralds?) could have triggered the Recreance due to his madness getting worse and coming to a new conclusion, though it still seems pretty flimsy. It is worth noting that the Stormfather does say his memories of the Recreance (and anything before) is hazy (which makes me wonder how he knew Honor had dealt with this problem before). So it's possible he's missing some nuance, especially since his understanding of human reasoning seems pretty vague in the first place (getting better with the bond). Given that the Fused seem to require regular Parshman/Parshendi to possess for their immortality, I suppose one potential solution would have been to make sure there aren't candidates to possess (i.e. genocide). If it turns out that Honor or the Heralds were pushing for this solution (which presumably would mean the Heralds would no longer have to seal themselves with the Fused) perhaps that may have been the bridge too far. Before the last Desolation and the breaking of the Heralds, presumably they weren't looking for such a drastic solution. Regardless, it seems like there must be more nuance to the story, or it's a pretty anticlimactic reveal to something built up for the entire series.
  23. Hmm, apparently I got mixed up on the topic in discussion here. In regards to the point about spren being able to influence, the world and the bonding with Rosharian life, my point was that one of the ways spren could affect the world was through affecting creatures they were bonded with (Parshendi, among others). I don't think the WoB is relevant from that perspective, either. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I think I'm starting from a somewhat different spot. Specifically, I agree that whatever caused the Recreance is probably one big thing rather than lots of little things (given how weaponizeable Taravangian seems to think it is) and that it impacted all of the KR (even if not all exactly the same way or at the same intensity). So the main question from there is what attribute KR all share - the First Ideal seems like a good spot to start, but I agree with the conclusion that the Orders all interpret it in potentially fairly significantly different ways. The one thing we know the KR do share (in a mechanical way, given how the world works in the books) is that they're 'broken'/snapped. So that seems like a reasonable point of vulnerability. Up to this point I don't think I'm particularly invoking whether the reason must have been emotional or logical in impact. The main reason why I think there must have been a significant emotional component has to do with Dalinar's interpretation of his vision of the Recreance. Given that the vision only covers Windrunners and Stonewards, it's possible that the emotional component might have been specific to those Orders (this is what I was getting at earlier w.r.t. potentially different reactions to the same original cause). 'Bondfarming' is just where I end up given my other theory that the bonds are involved in spren reproduction. The main elements though are that (a) the fact the KR are all 'broken' is probably important to the reason for the Recreance and (b) Windrunners and Stonewards seemed upset at their spren. I don't think the spren are any less prone to making poor decisions than humanity (Sons of Honor...). There's presumably a 'sweet spot' of bad things that can happen to humanity to optimize the number of bonds. Also, longer Desolations is merely one of the potential options to cause more potential bond candidates; it was a ready example of a way spren could potentially affect the Roshar in a way that was detrimental to humans. And it doesn't require every spren to decide the risk is worth it; a secret society of spren is kind of what I had in mind (everyone else seems to be in one at this point, anyway). But sticking with Desolations, in the short run Desolations quite likely increased the number of KR (and just having cognitive thought doesn't seem sufficient for whatever the Nahel spren 'want', individuals capable of the bond seem required). Based on Pattern's comments I don't think just having humanity around is necessarily associated with the number of/quality of life of the Nahel spren. As an aside, iIt's actually interesting to consider that Desolation -> more KR creates potentially negative feedback, perhaps providing a partial explanation of how humanity survived the many Desolations. IIRC what Ishar was uncertain was about was whether Taln going back alone would be sufficient (to trap Odium, presumably). If he didn't know, in general, how the system was supposed to work he wouldn't have have been uncertain whether it would keep working with just one person. As to why... well, we know why: the Heralds stay on Roshar for their own benefit at the prologue to the series. It doesn't seem too far fetched to consider that some of the Heralds may have broken in an earlier cycle than the others, or were 'merely' justifying a longer 'vacation'. Really the whole idea about some of the Heralds being in on it came from looking at the prologue. I think it's almost exactly the opposite. I don't think forces of nature would in general be particularly about planning in the long term; they behave mostly according to their natures rather than being particularly deliberate (except a few of the spren whose nature is to be deliberate, presumably). Ultimately the other ways are going to involve people fighting people, i.e. instigating wars. I don't think we have enough history to go into specific cases, but we can consider e.g. Alakavish, the Surgebinder that caused devastation before Nohadon's Desolation. Pre-KR it probably would have been quite trivial to (unintentionally or otherwise) traumatize people into being bond-capable by letting Surgebinders indulge their natures. I concede that this is the weakest part (universality), though as noted it's probably the weakest part of any theory of the Recreance. The best I can come up with is the explanation above about there being a single root cause/reason, but the proximate cause for a given Order/group of like-minded KR falling apart may be different. I think that Dalinar only seeing Windrunners and Stonewards in his vision is important - while there could have been a more prosaic reason for this (they're the only ones close by) I think that it could indicate the Orders didn't necessarily break apart in the same fashion or for the same immediate excuse. The other aspect is that even if not all of the Orders broke up directly as a result of the cause of the Recreance, it may have e.g. convinced the Skybreakers that the KR should be disbanded, by force if necessary. Again, we only have seen two Orders (probably among the more martial Orders) apparently willingly disband. If some coalition of Orders decided that KR as a whole shouldn't exist, that may have been sufficient. Ultimately though I think the requirement the KR be broken may by its nature mean that each KR has some trauma that they won't be able to deal with rationally (at least, not without a lot of work). The evidence for this in the books as of now is admittedly somewhat limited, though that's at least in part because we've only proverbially visited two KR candidates (and the nature of their being protagonists, they are likely exceptional in some ways), and of the two Shallan still seems pretty fragile. I have to imagine, from a meta perspective anyway, that this point wouldn't be brought up repeatedly in the text/blurbs if it wasn't a significant plot point.
  24. Right, but what I was getting at was whether it was indirect (i.e. influencing a human, like the Thrill) or something more direct.