Confused
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Posts posted by Confused
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The name Rial is an anagram for "liar." Brandon's done this before with Sebarial, an anagram for "base liar." To me, that's a big tip-off. He might even be Sebarial because I think Rial is a Dysian Aimian. At first I thought he was Zahel/Vasher's newest incarnation, but Zahel appears later in the scene, when Rial is also present. But when Rial says, "I’m a new man. Reborn in the bridge crews,” I see a Dysian rearranging itself into a "new man."
It also seems to me a Dysian is uniquely qualified to be the organizational genius Sebarial is. And his "lazy expression" sounds like Sebarial. Of course, that raises questions about Palona. Is she something besides a two-armed Herdazian? Does that explain the couple's calm during the Narak battle? Sebarial might have reasons to tail Dalinar as a guard and learn things he might not learn as the Highprince of Commerce. Just some speculation to add to the mix.
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My goodness, @The One Who Connects! I begin by saying this is all “raw speculation” based on “it feels right.” That’s an unpromising beginning for a serious theory. The post is what it is – some educated guesses about SLA’s structure and ending.
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:I could see the Honorblades simply requiring Investiture, regardless of it's flavor. I could also see them being limited to only Stormlight, so it's not a huge thing. What I don't see is what Nightblood has to do with it. Nightblood was created several millennia later. If the Honorblades can consume any Investiture, then they could do that regardless of whether or not that Sword is Nightblood. I'm not seeing the connection you are trying to make here.
Several posters have opined Nightblood is the Sword of Retribution, not me. My post takes no position on it, other than to point out Nightblood consumes Investiture like Honorblades do. That sentence, I think, expresses a “what if?” Of course, Nightblood could be an Awakened Honorblade (lol…sorta).
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:I don't think mere magic swords can sever that bond. Not without the Listener's consent.
Maybe you’re right. Again, the post is raw speculation. I can think of two reasons why the speculation is not unfounded:
First, you know I believe Odium’s Investiture doesn’t bond, but is injected into other spren through a “hole.” Voidspren are like an implanted electrode. IOW, the magic swords don’t have to sever the listener-spren bond. They can just remove the implanted electrode from the bonded spren. Your WoB doesn’t address that, only the listener-spren bond itself.
Second, certain cosmere magic consumes Investiture – Nightblood, larkins, and Honorblades to name three. I think you’d agree Nightblood, for example, could consume all listeners’ combined Investiture if allowed to. I suggest it may be possible to selectively consume different types of Investiture. Maybe, for example, if the Heralds unite their Honorblades, they only consume Odium’s Investiture? Just a thought.
Also, I suspect (without evidence) it’s easier to sever a bond than to form one.
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:This again... I'm not getting involved in this rabbit hole again. Well... why Nergaoul specifically?
As for locality, you do remember that Nergaoul and Moelach can choose to move.. or not. The Thrill is peculiarly Alethi because Nergaoul decided that is where he would be. Where he goes, the Thrill goes.
You’re right again about Nergaoul’s movements. I said the Thrill is “peculiarly Alethi” because the KR “warrior class” killers congregate in Alethela. As KR, they may not feel the Thrill, but there must be some reason they’re all there. Maybe it doesn’t mean anything.
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:For someone as pedant as you are about details, misinterpretations, and what is/is not certain, I'm surprised you'd say those words.
Me, a “pedant”? Nooooo…not me! (Touche.) I do think a close focus on logic and detail is important, and my sense is everyone here agrees, including you. The truth is in the details. That’s one reason I value folks like you who point out the inconsistencies a close reading reveals. I give you an upvote for your perspicacity (ha!) despite your different view.
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:Seeing "something familiar in a figure's eyes" is not even remotely the same things as seeing "someone familiar." He also makes absolutely no comment about any familiarity or lack thereof with anything else other than the eyes. Window to the soul they may be, eyes alone are not enough for to recognize someone familiar.
I’m not sure my wife (or me) would agree with that last sentence. But you’re right that “someone recognizable” is not necessarily the same as something “terribly familiar” in another's eyes. IMO, either could be Sadeas, though. FWIW, I consider “familiar” a higher level of knowledge of another than is “recognizable.”
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:If this is what Nalan means, then he has to have a way of gaining this knowledge, which seems.. unlikely. I don't see Honor making anyone privy to information like that, and Odium isn't the type to share trade secrets. It also means that he should try to kill off Dalinar, his character development in Edgedancer notwithstanding. (Wouldn't that be an interesting scene in Oathbringer..)
Again, I raise questions, not answers, but this is an extremely important question that IMO goes directly to plot development. Here’s the full “Edgedancer" quote for reference:
Quote"Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take. Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us—the greater law of protecting Roshar—is required.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Arcanum Unbounded: The Cosmere Collection (p. 595). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Ishar tells Nale unregulated oaths could “cause a Desolation.” As you know, I believe Odium has a way to corrupt Radiantspren. I think this is Ishar’s concern. IMO, Ishar implicitly tells Nale that the Stormfather – unlike Honor – can’t be trusted with oaths. IOW, even false oaths could strengthen the Nahel bond under the Stormfather. I think the Stormfather’s acceptance of all oaths without question shows Ishar may be right.
If so, Dalinar could be someone the Stormfather corrupts. I’m reminded by stuff on the Spoiler Board that Dalinar is unlikely to be the “betrayer.” I do think he will face some bad consequence because of his bond to the Stormfather.
Once Nale sees the Desolation, he’s done killing Surgebinders. He’s on Dalinar’s side for now. But it would be an interesting scene.
8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:As for the rest of the post, there's not much to say. (boy was I wrong about that. It's nice to know I can still discuss things on here with some modicum of passion)
I agree with Toaster Retribution. You seem to be taking the story a bit too literally for my tastes, even if it is the foreshadowing of the ending(which I do not think it is)
Fair enough. Glad I could make you feel passion again. You and TR may be right. As I said, this just feels like it should be the ending. I’m curious what you think is the ending foreshadowed in the first two books. I don’t see many candidates. It’s one reason I agreed with Zandi when he first posted.
9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:Sorry for rambling on longer than I anticipated.
Never be sorry for rambling. I do. The Allman Brothers do. I think you’re in good company! Regards!
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1 hour ago, Calderis said:
This is the first I've ever seen this. To my knowledge, every planet in the Cosmere is a "Shardworld" Major/Minor just indicates that a Shard is in residence.
Brandon’s never said all planets are Shardworlds. The questioner in the WoB you and @The One Who Connects quote asks Brandon the difference between Major and Minor Shardworlds. The WoB doesn’t address the difference between Shardworlds and other planets.
Why would a planet created by Adonalsium, that holds only his inherent Investiture, that no Shard ever visited or Invested, be called a Shardworld? Maybe an “Adonalsium-world…” The Shards divvied up Adonalsium’s power in the Shattering, the Spiritual Realm’s “true Investiture.” But pre-existing local planetary Investiture – Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture – stayed as it was, except to the extent Shards changed it.
They did change the Investiture of Shardworlds. That’s why I think only those worlds are called “Shardworlds.” But Shards didn’t do anything on most cosmere planets. Khriss says many lack perpendicularities, despite their inherent Investiture.
I rely on the quoted WoB for the distinction between “interaction with magic” systems and “people with magic” systems and for the notion that “every world created” (except Scadrial) holds Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture. I think this is an extremely important, foundational WoB for understanding the cosmere and its magic. But the WoB doesn’t say “every world created is now a Shardworld,” and I don’t believe such a WoB exists (though maybe you guys can find one).
P.S. Hey, I just realized this is my "pi" post!
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First of the Sun does hold Adonalsium's inherent Investiture, but the Patji Shardpool Investiture must come from a Shard that no longer resides there. Otherwise, it would not be a "Shardworld," minor or major. There are many planets Shards never visited, but each of those planets IMO still holds the inherent Investiture Adonalsium left on them. Those are planets, not Shardworlds. First of the Sun is a Minor Shardworld. Hence, its Investiture must come in part from a Shard.
I agree with most of the comments here, with unnamed exceptions. @StormblessDave, if you haven't yet read it, you might look at my post entitled "Pre-Shattering Magic." It presents my theory on the "baseline" magic of four Major Shardworlds. I discuss Roshar first and in depth.
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Raw speculation: The first five books are about gathering Roshar’s humans in Urithiru (“uniting” them). The gap between the arcs is the “Night of Sorrows,” when the Everstorm rises to submerge Urithiru in darkness. The last five books are about humans fighting back, causing Odium to question whether he can win. The culmination is the Duel between Honor’s and Odium’s Champions.
My basis for this speculation? It just feels right….
There is one item of evidence – the image of the ten Shardblades held aloft against the Voidbringer hordes. I suggest these are the Honorblades, not KR Shardblades. Honorblades, we know, consume Stormlight. I think they consume any Investiture, especially if Nale’s “Sword of Retribution” turns out to be Nightblood. I speculate these Blades will be used to remove voidspren from the Voidbringers, returning them to their normal state. With his army gone, Odium chooses to Duel.
I have more confidence projecing the saga’s ending. Brandon says he foreshadows that ending somewhere in the first two books. @zandi opined the story of Fleet (WoR, Chapter 59) tells that ending. I agree. I reconstruct that story to fill in what I think happens during the race. It goes without saying this is complete speculation and guesswork.
Preliminary Thought: If @Zandi is correct, the race is the Duel of Champions. How then to explain the person Dalinar thinks is Odium’s Champion? I suggest (again with no evidence) that the ten former Silver Kingdoms each fall to a different Voidbringer army led by an opposing Champion. Each Kingdom has an Oathgate That’s why I think the first five books chronicle the human retreat to Urithiru.
Dalinar sees someone recognizable who embodies the Thrill. I think he sees Nergaoul in possession of the “unmade” soul of the recently murdered Sadeas. The Thrill is peculiarly Alethi. KR in Dalinar’s "Starfall" vision (IIRC) say their warrior class congregates in “Alethela.”
I speculate each Odium Champion is a listener “god” in a mortal's form who has ties to that Kingdom. When Odium fears he may lose, he calls upon his true Champion, the “God of Storms,” IMO a corrupted version of the Stormfather.
Let’s begin the final Duel of Champions:
Quote“So to the east, there went our Fleet. Upon the shore his mark was set…. [¶] No man should tempt the God of Storms.”
The storm begins in the east, so it’s not the Everstorm. But the chapter never identifies the storm as a highstorm. The reference to the “God of Storms” could mean the Stormfather or the listener’s Rider of Storms. Again, I speculate Odium has injected his Investiture into the Stormfather, giving Odium control over the storms.
If Odium controls the Stormfather, does that mean Dalinar is the “one who betrays us” from the WoK back cover? Nale mentions the danger of making the Nahel bond oaths without Honor. Maybe this is what he means? Through the corrupt Stormfather, who makes a corrupt Nahel bond, the Bondsmith himself is unknowingly corrupt?
Quote“Lanky, tall, with tied-black long hair that went to his waist…”
Fleet’s description matches Kaladin.
QuoteFleet tore off just in front of an angry, violent wall of water, lightning, and wind-blown rocks.
…“O’er rock and grass, our Fleet did run! He leaped the stones and dodges the trees, his feet a blur, his soul a sun.”
Fleet runs, he doesn’t Windrun. That suggests the storm doesn’t hold Stormlight. I think this confirms the storm is not a highstorm.
Fleet’s soul is a “sun.” On Roshar, spren are “souls,” and Syl is Kaladin’s “soul.” I think Kaladin must hold Stormlight to glow. By then he’s a full Windrunner and can store and use Stormlight with peak efficiency. He must saturate himself with Stormlight.
I have only guesses why he doesn’t fly. Maybe running conserves Stormlight better. Maybe Odium set the Duel rules. Or worse, maybe an unknowingly corrupt Dalinar set the rules, thinking he was acting Honorably. Could that be Dalinar's betrayal?
Quote“Yet soon the race its toll did claim. His feet like bricks, his legs like cloth. In gasps our runner drew his breath. The end approached, the storm outdone, but slowly did our hero run.”
Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, but still makes it into Shinovar:
Quote“He crossed the peaks, but lost his lead. The last paths lay before his feet, but strength he’d spent and might he’d lost. Each step was toil, each breath in pain. A sunken land he crossed with grief, the grass so dead it did not move.
“But here the storm, it too did wilt, with thunder lost and lightning spent. The drops slipped down, now weak as wet. For Shin is not a place for them.”
I think the storm “wilts” because it loses its Investiture – Odium’s Investiture – when the storm hits the mountains east of Shinovar. Highstorms likewise lose Stormlight there. IMO, that’s why there are no spren in Shinovar.
Quote“Upon that land of dirt and soil,” Wit shouted, “our hero fell and did not stir! His body spent, his strength undone, Fleet the hero was no more.
“The storm approached and found him there. It stilled and stopped upon its course! The rains they fell, the winds they blew, but forward they could not progress.”
As with the Voidbringers, pulling Odium’s Investiture from the storm leaves it in its natural state. The Stormfather, the personification of Honor, recognizes Kaladin’s sacrifice to protect Roshar. Is there anything more “Honorable”?
Quote“For glory lit, and life alive, for goals unreached and aims to strive. All men must try, the wind did see. It is the test, it is the dream.
“So in that land of dirt and soil, our hero stopped the storm itself. And while the rain came down like tears, our Fleet refused to end this race. His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise.
“It flew upon the day’s last song, to win the race and claim the dawn. Past the sea and past the waves, our Fleet no longer lost his breath. Forever strong, forever fast, forever free to race the wind.”
Kaladin fully merges with Syl. His body is dead, but their fully-mingled soul remains, “forever free to race the wind.”
And that’s how humans defeat Odium. What their prize is – Odium leaving Greater Roshar with reduced power? – is unclear. A final thought: I think Cultivation is more prescient than Odium. I think she knew the terms of the Duel he would someday want to fight. She prepared for that day by making Shinovar a sinkhole for Investiture. She won and reaped her revenge on him for killing Honor.
Highly speculative, but what do you think?
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On 9/20/2017 at 10:51 AM, Pagerunner said:
Can you clarify where you believe the Divine Attributes originate? Are they inherent aspects of Honor (and/or maybe Cultivation)? Or are the Heralds themselves the actual origin of the attributes, and that they are only associated with the Honor because his Heralds displayed them?
Doesn’t Brandon say (somewhere) the Returned and the Heralds are essentially the same magic system? I interpret him to mean the Honorblades are each an Honor/Cultivation splinter bound to an ideal. They're like the Returned’s Divine Breath, another splinter bound to an ideal. IMO, unlike the Divine Breath, the Honor/Cultivation splinter periodically possesses a different body when the Herald returns to the Physical Realm.
Thus, I think Honor/Cultivation chose their ideals. Later, these ideals became Vorinized into the Divine Attributes. IOW, the ideals that became the Divine Attributes are “inherent aspects” of the Shards. I think Honor/Cultivation presented these ideals to humans in the form of the Heralds. Humans personified the Vorinized Heraldic ideals - the Divine Attributes - into the Radiantspren.
QuoteThere were stories of evil men made immortal, then tortured over and over again—like Extes, who had his arms torn off each day for sacrificing his son to the Voidbringers in exchange for knowledge of the day of his death. It was just a tale, but tales came from somewhere.
WoK, Kindle pp. 688-689.
I think this passage foreshadows what we’ll discover about the Heralds. They were “evil men made immortal” by the Oathpact. They agreed to become Cognitive Shadows infused with Honor/Cultivation’s Investiture and stand at the bridge between Braize and Roshar to fend off the voidspren. (I’ve used the “Horatius at the Bridge” comparison before and still think it’s apt. If you’ve read Jim Butcher’s excellent Codex Alera series, you’ll recognize that scene.)
If the Heralds stay too long after a Desolation, a new one begins because there’s no one manning the bridge. IMO, that’s why Kalak is surprised one Herald going back is enough. Apparently, a single Oathkeeper maintains the Oathpact. This does suggest Odium didn’t try to cause a new Desolation after Aharietam. He wasn't bound by the Oathpact. It would have been easy for him to break through.
Quote55. PeterAhlstrom
Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.
Might Chana be the Reshi “king” whose Tai-na respects boldness above all else? There are issues with this, if she’s really Talik’s mother. But otherwise, it’s a possibility.
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5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:
Syl is bothered by lies, so just protectionspren feels too limiting.
KR Orders are the combination of “a concept or an ideal mixed with an essence…with two magics attached to it.” Radiantspren Primary Attributes form only the “ideal” part, what they personify. Brandon says all “Honor” spren are “bothered by lies,” regardless of their Order. The ideal and the Mandated Investiture that comprises the Radiantspren are separate parts of that combination. IOW, lies bother Syl because she’s made from Honor - the Shard of “oaths, promises and nobility” – not because she is a “protecting spren.”
5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:Pattern told Shallan she needs truths to progress, so I think you put too much emphasys on her drawings just because she's the only LW we've met so far, but if I recall correctly WoB has it Kal has met another LW before her, yet she is the only one with this particular skill in art he has met, so artists are probably more likely than others to be LW material, but not necessarily the only ones, thus I'm skeptic about creativespren as an alternative for Cryptics. If I had to chose another name for them I'd go with self-awareness spren.
First, I agree Hoid is the Lightweaver Kal met before Shallan (in the “Wandersail” chapter). Brandon says he uses the Yolen variant of Lightweaving.
Second, I wasn’t limiting Cryptics to the visual arts. Brandon says Cryptics are the spren that seek artists of all kinds. One would hope “self-awareness” is a trait everyone shares, not just artists. (Oh, if only it were so!) But IMO artists can’t achieve their full potential without total self-knowledge at some level.
5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:For inkspren I'd go with logicspren. When Jasnah first met her spren and it threw her in Shadesmar (not fully), he expected of her to use some basic logic to get herself out of that situation. You call it learned, but that wuld imply it's a spren you attract after you learned something imo.
You and @Yata agree on this. I understand the conclusion derives from this WoB:
QuoteQuestion: What qualities would attract an inkspren?
Answer: Inkspren don't like how variable humans are, it's a thing out of Honor, so a person who is willing to think about their life rather than reacting by instinct would work for them. The scholar is the perfect example but for instance a soldier who is very thoughtful and doesn't just rush into battle would work for them too.
IMO, this WoB suggests Inkspren approve Socrates’ idea (reported in Plato’s Apology) that “the unexamined life is not worth living.” I think “learnedness” requires more than mere knowledge or mere analysis, but some combination of the two. You can’t analyze something you don’t know, and thoughtless knowledge – rote memorization – doesn’t get you very far either. Jasnah is the perfect host for Ivory because she knows tons, but also thinks about the meaning of what she knows (and doesn’t know).
Brandon’s example of the “thoughtful soldier who doesn’t just rush into battle” surprises me a bit. By that definition, Kal’s old squad leader Hav might qualify, as might Kal himself. IMO, that seems too low a bar to attract an Inkspren. Like your suggestion of “self-awareness” for Cryptics, I think mere “thoughtfulness” captures too many candidates.
Also, logic is only one form of analysis. I think of “insight” as the intersection of analysis and imagination. Pure logic without imagination doesn’t necessarily provide insight (IMO). You and Yata may disagree with me, but “logicspren” just seems an inadequate descriptor.
I also find it interesting that “Inkspren don't like how variable humans are, it's a thing out of Honor.” To me, this confirms that Honor is a conservative force, seeking to place humans into predictable ruts. That must have storyline implications somewhere.
5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:About Vargo I saw someone mention him as potential second BS. I don't remember who suggested it, but it's an interesting possibility.
This was @Calderis.
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This is a longer post than I intended. I foolishly read the thread about Taravangian after writing the first part of this post. That thread in turn led to the discussion of oath interpretation and Knight Radiant behavior. Advance apologies for lumping all that together here, but I think they are related issues.
Radiantspren “True” Names
I theorize each Radiantspren is the personification of the human ideal represented by their KR Order’s “Primary Attribute.” IMO, these ideals are the spren’s true names, reflecting what they are. The names in the novels are the names Radiantspren call themselves. These self-identifying names may reflect spren self-perception, but not the human perception each Radiantspren personifies.
Examples: I describe the Radiantspren we know the most about in these terms. I don’t address all Radiantspren because we haven’t met them all.
Honorspren IMO are “Protectingspren.” Syl protects Kaladin during the highstorm, holding back winds that would tear him apart. When Kaladin tumbles into the chasm, Syl’s last act before the bond breaks (Rock-a-bye Baby?) forces Stormlight into Kaladin, protecting him from the fall. She denies the Stormfather to help Kaladin reinstate his oaths. Protection is Syl’s purpose, what she is.
Cryptics IMO are “Creativespren,” to be distinguished from creationspren. The essence of artistic creativity is pattern-recognition, seeing what others do not see. Pattern aids Shallan’s creativity by pushing her to more self-discovery and self-understanding, seeing the patterns within herself. That is necessary for her art to grow. He gives her creative advice throughout. When Shallan cannot see the “pattern” of the Oathgate, Pattern tells Shallan she should back up for perspective.
Wyndle, whatever he and his fellow Ring members call themselves, IMO is a “Lovingspren.” He “mothers” Lift and frets about her health and safety. He scolds her to eat more (as every mother does), so that her Surgebinding won’t make her too skinny. Wyndle’s purpose is to love Lift, to care for her, so that she can love and care for others.
Inkspren IMO are “Learnedspren.” Ivory seems willing to let Jasnah die in the WoR Prologue if she cannot learn how to use the Shadesmar beads properly. He acts like an exam proctor, testing her “learnedness” before he “passes” her into KR status.
I think the following WoB (the third quote from @Calderis's “oath interpretation” post) supports the distinction between human perception and spren self-perception. Spren “self-identity” IMO doesn’t change their human-personified behavior. Rather, highspren think “honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause.” IMO, an honorspren’s “good cause” is protecting people, which appears to supersede the oaths. I think the WoB’s last part addresses whether oaths are objective or subjective, not the human-personified nature of the spren itself – “how they work,” not what they are:
QuoteQ: The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.
A: That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.
Q: Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?
A: Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.
KR Oaths
@Calderis makes excellent points in his thread on KR behavior. (Upvotes not only for him but also for @Extesian, who supplied the quotations.) KR are not good or evil and may act “cruelly,” as Brandon says.
On 7/6/2017 at 5:54 AM, Calderis said:Syl states in tWoK that all Spren are basically the same individual. So variations between different spren of the same type have to come from the person they are bonded too. Their souls are intermingled, and the sentience of the Spren is gained from that. It has to have an effect on their thought process. That's why I think as long as the person fulfills their oaths and truly believes it, the Spren will agree. Source.
Agreed, but I think a bit overstated. The Radiantspren won’t begin to bond unless the KR candidate has the same “temperament” – Primary Attribute – as the Radiantspren: protecting, creative, loving, etc. I think Attribute alignment places intrinsic limits on KR variance within the same Order.
IMO, each KR Order’s Primary Attribute solely determines a KR candidate’s placement in that Order. Thus, I’d expect KR personalities to differ. I think many personality types can be protecting, or creative, or loving. It makes sense to me that the precise oath statement would differ from KR to KR within an Order.
It’s also possible same-type spren themselves show personality differences. Radiantspren are “people” too. But IMO these differences don’t affect their nature, their Primary Attribute. I’m unconvinced all same-type spren personality variations “come from the person they are bonded to,” as @Calderis states (emphasis in original).
FWIW, I think Radiantspren resemble Shards and their Mandates (intents). IMO both are power imbued with cognitive limitations. Both exercise their power subject to those limitations, even though (as Brandon says of Vessels) their personalities also affect their power exercise.
KR Behavior
So…to say KRs can act “dishonorably” seems obvious. Each Order is bound only by its common Primary Attribute. Oaths strengthen that bond, but again, only to more closely align a KR with its Order’s Primary Attribute.
Attributes like Protection and Creativity don’t necessarily bear any relationship to one another. Windrunners and Lightweavers can have different goals and different means of obtaining them. Such differences can easily lead to conflict among Orders.
@Calderis suggests Taravangian could be an Elsecaller like Jasnah. If I’m correct that Inkspren are “learned” spren, Taravangian clearly qualifies and could well attract an Inkspren. More so, because Brandon says in one of @Calderis’ WoBs that, until bonded, spren don’t fully comprehend the person they bond with. (That’s a fascinating comment!)
I wonder how long Taravangian’s Nahel bond would survive, though. The Elsecaller Secondary Attribute is “giving.” Taravangian IMO deliberately misleads others. He does not share information, he shares misinformation. Maybe that counts as giving, but….
Posters discuss whether Taravangian is misguided or “evil” in a moral sense on the “Mr. T” thread. I won’t add to that discussion here. I do note the extent to which the Diagram seems to support Nale’s notion about the KR’s danger.
On 7/6/2017 at 7:34 AM, Toaster Retribution said:If I understand @Calderis correctly, then the spren are basically a second conscience, with the ability to speak.
Jiminy Cricket to the KR’s Pinocchio?
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I measure Investiture in "gob" units, as in "gobs of Investiture." They come in small, medium and large sizes...
You only measure what you imagine.
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On 9/14/2017 at 9:41 PM, Calderis said:
I already know you disagree, but I feel compelled to present the evidence we have in counterpoint.
Hemalurgy, by all evidence, is Ruin's magic system, and presents itself uniformly Cosmere wide, like every other magic system.
Actually, I do agree with this and the cosmere-wide applicability of Hemalurgy. I said the same thing in the OP (before edits):
On 9/14/2017 at 9:33 PM, Confused said:“Hemalurgy” is Ruin’s magic system...
I believe, however, every Shard can use every power. It may be harder for some Shards to use certain powers, but they can all do it. Here’s what my OP edit added to it:
On 9/14/2017 at 9:33 PM, Confused said:This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are "not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools." That includes the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name).
IMO, Hemalurgy, Voidbringing, and non-Awakening Breath transfers share this ability to transfer innate Investiture. Windrunners and Coinshots also seem to share abilities (to change gravitational pull), as do Lightweavers and Soul Forgers (to transform souls).
NP if you disagree. The OP's main point is that Voidbringing is Odium’s “possession” magic and is the reason for the Recreance. There is text and WoB support for the first conclusion:
QuoteIt seemed that everybody knew something about the Voidbringers. People in rural areas spoke of them as mysterious creatures that came out at night, stealing from the unlucky and punishing the foolish. Those Voidbringers seemed more mischievous than evil. But then there would be the odd story about a Voidbringer taking on the form of a wayward traveler who—after receiving kindness from a tallew farmer—would slaughter the entire family, drink their blood, then write voidish symbols across the walls in black ash.
Most people in the cities, however, saw the Voidbringers as spirits who stalked at night, a kind of evil spren that invaded the hearts of men and made them do terrible things. When a good man grew angry, it was the work of a Voidbringer.
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 632). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition (emphasis added).
QuoteWhat if the Voidbringers were behind the visions? Some stories he heard said that they could possess the bodies of men and make them do evil.
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 860). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition (emphasis added).
In-world characters can be wrong, and these passages (from Shallan and Dalinar) seem based on superstition. These passages don’t address the “spren possession” idea. But they do fit with Brandon’s statement about how Odium controls spren.
If Odium can inject voidspren into pre-Shattering spren, which Brandon confirms, then IMO Odium can also control Radiantspren the same way. As I say in the OP, I believe Radiantspren are the combination of "lesser" spren (Brandon's word). Odium's ability to control Radiantspren seems ample cause for the Recreance.
On 9/15/2017 at 10:13 AM, Yata said:There are many beings Who were alive then and are still living now (The Heralds, many Spren) and there are culture that keeps Memories of the old events.(Listeners)
I strongly believe that someone of them Will say something on the matter.
Once again you make a good argument. But I’ve not suggested all Heralds are possessed, only Jezrien and maybe Ishar. Aside from the Prelude, the WoK Prologue (maybe), or some other cameo, we’ve not seen either Herald appear on-screen. We can’t know what they remember or how they behave or whether they would say something about it. Jezrien’s current “drooling” state (if that’s really him) suggests something ruined him.
Pattern says almost no Radiantspren survived the Recreance. Syl states the Stormfather is “broken.” I’m not suggesting that “brokenness” comes from the Stormfather’s possession. It’s probably because of Honor’s death and the Stormfather absorbing Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow. But I do think such “brokenness” might be a predicate to possession, just like a broken soul enables Radiantspren to bond with their KR. I also believe the Lost Legion’s memories and their Songs support the notion that voidspren possessed listeners through their spren.
7 hours ago, Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor said:I don't believe it would be possible to convince all the KR, especially the windrunners to kill their spren just because some of them were being corrupted.
Hmmmm… What if your friend’s dog runs with your dog and becomes rabid? Assume there are no rabies tests or vaccines and the first sign of your dog’s rabies is when he becomes a mass killer. (Cujo anyone?) You wouldn’t put him down before that happens?
The OP is speculative. It tries to explain why mass concurrent bond-breaking may have been necessary. Perhaps a poster previously suggested Odium’s control over Radiantspren to explain this, but I didn’t see such a post. Among the explanations I have seen, this one seems to me the most likely.
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I think the KR abandoned their oaths in the Recreance because they discovered that Odium had the ability to control their Radiantspren. I believe Voidbringing is Odium’s form of Hemalurgy. I speculate Odium used Voidbringing to inject voidspren into Radiantspren. I believe this is the Diagram’s “secret” that destroyed the KR.
Here’s my logic:
1. I think Hemalurgy is the ability to transfer innate Investiture from one entity to another. @Cowmanthethirdreminds me that, technically, “Hemalurgy” is Ruin’s magic system, since it relies on blood to effectuate the transfer. But I think the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name) is available to every Shard, subject to their Mandate (intent). Even non-Awakening Breath transfers IMO are Endowment’s form of Hemalurgy, since Breaths are innate Investiture. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are "not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools." That includes the power to transfer innate Investiture (by whatever name).
2. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) is Odium’s “possession” magic. He gains control of a soul by changing the soul’s innate Investiture. I believe Roshar’s innate Investiture always manifests as spren. Rosharans call spren a “soul.” The Rider of Storms is the “soul” of the storm. When Fleet dies, his “soul” rises into the storm “forever to race the wind” – a windspren. A Tai-na’s spren is its “soul.”
3. Voidspren IMO are Odium’s Hemalurgical “spikes” – Odium Investiture (voidspren) injected into a soul’s innate Investiture (the host spren). I think this WoB confirms that (emphasis added):
Quote[T]he kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.
Listeners bond with pre-Shattering spren. I think the only listener forms that rely on “hole-less” spren are the Lost Legion’s five basic forms. IMO, stormspren are a pre-Shattering spren Odium controls through a voidspren. In Dalinar’s Purelake vision, a voidspren-injected “host” spren becomes a Thunderclast.
4. In this post, I theorize Radiantspren combine two pre-Shattering spren. Those are the spren that give Radiantspren their ability to Focus two powers. I believe it’s possible for Odium to control the Radiantspren by injecting a voidspren into one or both of those spren or the Radiantspren itself, perhaps through the “hole” created by the combination.
5. Odium might have corrupted earlier KR generations this way. The Surgebinder War that preceded Nohadon’s Desolation may be an example. Vorin contempt for the KR may stem from their Odium-corrupted behavior as much as the Recreance. I think the Recreance KR discovered their exposure to Odium. The KR had to abandon their oaths in unison.
6. I think Odium has gained control of other spren. I’ve long believed the Heralds are spren – each a Horatius guarding the bridge between Braize’s and Roshar’s subastrals. Here’s Kalak’s description of Jezrien in the SLA Prelude:
QuoteHe seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.
Some posters believe Odium corrupted Ishar as well as Jezrien. IMO, Odium now controls the Stormfather.
7. I think Voidbringing is reversible. My Odium mantra: Hate corrodes and divides. It spoils relationships. I think Odium’s Mandate (intent) severs Connections. His Investiture cannot form its own bonds and instead “unmakes” souls. IMO, voidspren are like electrodes inserted into the host spren. They can be removed without damage to the host. The Nahel bond, in contrast, mingles souls.
That’s my speculation, anyway. Enjoy yourselves!
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On 9/9/2017 at 9:58 PM, Argent said:
It's also interesting that the original version had time manipulation in the magic, when that doesn't seem to fit in our current understanding of any of the Rosharan magics (unless you count futuresight / visions).
I theorized a few years ago that time manipulation is still part of a Truthwatcher's magic, comparing it to Allomantic time bubbles. @Argent didn't like the theory then and made a good counter. I based my conclusion on the WoR multi-Shardbearer duel.
A more recent post borrowed from @skaa's theory of the essences to explain the KR orders in terms of Radiantspren (representing the Surges), "ideals," and essences. I posited there (and still believe) that Radiantspren are a combination of two "lesser" spren - pre-Shattering sentient spren. That's why Radiantspren can Focus two separate powers. Brandon first talked about this stuff in two 2010 WoBs I cite there.
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@Calderis, apologies for my late arrival to the party, especially since I issued the invitation.
I understand your theory to have two pillars: (1) the elements that comprise Focuses (forms, metals, commands, and spren/bonds) are “significant” throughout the cosmere but have greatest “prominence” on their respective Shardworlds; and (2) Focuses are a product of their Shardworld and not their Shards.
I agree Focus elements exist elsewhere than their Major Shardworld; but why do you say they have “significance” elsewhere? I see why commands might be a specialized version of what Khriss calls “intent” (not to be confused with Shard “intent” – one reason I call Shard “intent” a Mandate). But your other examples don’t seem to line up as well with your “general-to-special” theory.
ASIDE: I thought metals have cosmere-significance because that’s Investiture’s solid state and because practitioners of the Metallic Arts can use metal as their Focus everywhere. Is there something I missed?
On 9/11/2017 at 9:33 PM, Calderis said:The Foci seem to be products of the Shardworlds and not the Shards themselves. This is why Scadrial, a world with two Shards, has a single focus. The magic systems develop as an interaction between the present investiture and the world itself.
The first and last sentences in this quote seem to me contradictory. (I assume “present investiture” means the Shards’ Investiture?) I agree Shards created their magic systems by adapting to the magic they found on their chosen planets. I also agree Shards chose their planets largely because of the “inherent magic” Adonalsium left on their planet.
But I believe Focuses are part of the magic systems the Shards created. Neither Adonalsium nor the Shards need Focuses. IMO, the “cosmere-wide” elements you describe became Focuses because of the same “Shard-Shardworld” interactions that produced the magic systems. I think this might explain your “Focuses are specialized versions of cosmere-wide phenomena” theory.
I’ll quote my reply to @Cowmanthethird in another of your threads to describe how I think Focuses developed on each Major Shardworld (other than Scadrial):
On 9/6/2017 at 1:46 PM, Confused said:I think each planet’s inherent Investiture and original “design” limit what might serve as a Focus there. The Shards adapted existing magic to form their magic systems, choosing a Focus consistent with the planet’s inherent Investiture and design. This sounds to me like Focuses develop from an interaction between the planet and the Shard, as you propose. I do think the planetary component precludes Shards who share planets to choose their own Focuses independent of the other resident Shard(s).
I explain what I think each planet’s original magic was in my Pre-Shattering Magic post. On Sel, Adonalsium Invested the ground. On Roshar, he Invested the highstorms. On Nalthis, he Invested electromagnetic radiation. On Taldain, he Invested the oceans.
Sel’s Focus is forms because the Shards IMO added their Investitures to the Investiture Adonalsium left in the ground. Shard Investiture turned topographic features rooted in the ground into the magical language that could direct and Focus the Dor. Their splintering fragmented the initial system, but I think that just created Focus “sub-types,” as you put it.
Roshar’s Focus is spren (IMO) because Adonalsium’s “touch and design” makes Roshar Realmically-permeable. Power leaks into Roshar’s Cognitive Realm and Invests ideas before the power passes into the Physical Realm. Khriss says Shard Investiture “expanded” this spren-based system to, among other things, create Radiantspren as Surgebinding’s Focus (IMO).
Nalthis’ Focus is its visualized commands, with emphasis on the visualization. I think this grows out of Nalthis’ original “quantum physics” design that I describe in the “Pre-Shattering Magic” post. Awakeners’ visualization IMO calls to mind “Schrodinger’s cat” and the ardents’ WoK experiment that fixes the length of firespren: only when an object is observed (and Cognitively “imprinted”) can its actual state be known. To imprint behavior onto the Breath of an Awakened object, Awakeners must visualize how they want the object to behave. Brandon says commands are “like your mind reaching into the Spiritual Realm and you have to like conceive something.”
Taldain’s Focus is unknown. I speculate it’s an Autonomy splinter that attaches itself to the Sand Master. I further speculate the splinter chooses its host based on the host’s degree of self-reliance. I suspect this splinter resembles Radiantspren and Divine Breath, which also choose a host based on character. Please note this is raw speculation without much evidence.
@Extesian, I’ve seen the first WoB you cite, but haven’t appreciated its significance: “people’s perception has sort of changed how the magic works.” We know that’s generally true, like with Kaladin’s slave brands. But Brandon says that’s why fabrial gemstones of nearly identical chemical composition can nonetheless produce different magical results! Lots to chew on there. Thanks!
Also, if you haven’t yet read it yet, I suggest you look at @skaa's post that explains cosmere magic in terms of string theory. You might find something there to support your wavelength theory.
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I agree with you all that a literal parsing of the Stormfather’s statement means oaths mark sapient beings. You all may be right and maybe I am “reading too much into this.” But I think word context and connotation justify my conclusion. To me, this is such an odd and unnecessary statement for the Stormfather to make.
1. I start with the presumption Brandon chooses his words carefully. The Stormfather could have said, “All oaths are the mark of sapient beings,” if that was the point Brandon wanted to make. He didn’t. Instead, he compared “men” with “beasts” and “true” spren with “sub”-spren. You may think his word choice is accurate and appropriate. I think it is pejorative.
2. Even Dalinar thought this was an “extreme opinion.” He questions whether it’s the Stormfather’s opinion or Honor’s and “chews” over this. If the opinion were just an obvious comparison between sapience and sentience, it shouldn’t have bothered Dalinar.
3. Most importantly, I don’t think the Stormfather was saying only sapient beings can make oaths. Radiantspren don’t make oaths; their KR do. The KR oaths bond them to their spren. That’s why I read the Stormfather as saying, “Oaths mark the relationship between men and true spren.” “Beasts and subspren” also bond symbiotically, just not through oaths.
@Calderis, I noticed you say in another thread that bonds are central to the cosmere, not just to Roshar. I understand why you think bonds are Roshar’s Focus. Can you point me to a post where you lay out your cosmere-wide bond theory? If not, perhaps you can begin a topic or state that theory here? I’d find it helpful if you can also define what “bond” means to you. Thanks!
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@bookspren, I agree with your view of Roshar’s objective reality. As @Yata says and Kaladin observes, listeners are more honorable than humans. But IMO the Stormfather presents a racist attitude, not reality. (Great name, btw.)
Quote“[Oaths] are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren.”
I interpret this to mean “true spren” are Radiantspren, the only spren that bond with “men” through oaths (other than maybe the godspren themselves). Because listeners don’t bond through oaths, the Stormfather calls them “beasts.” That’s classic racist propaganda. Even the phrase “subspren” IMO is offensive, in the same way being called “subhuman” is.
Dalinar himself puzzles over the Stormfather’s “extreme opinion”:
QuoteDalinar chewed on that, and found he was not surprised by the extreme opinion. Spren should be extreme; they were forces of nature. But was this how Honor himself, the Almighty, had thought?
@Yata, it is a pleasure seeing you again! I hope we can be friends even when we disagree.
I agree the Stormfather means oaths “make the difference between Humans and Beasts.” I think in some ways his comment is even worse if he does refer to mundane oaths rather than magical. Non-human listeners make oaths and promises to one another. Yet the Stormfather considers listeners “beasts” because their oaths don’t bind their spren.
You make a great point about how the Stormfather treated Eshonai. Two possible explanations:
1. Odium may have Invested the Stormfather after that scene, when highstorm met Everstorm. Syl says the Stormfather is “broken.” Those cracks in his soul may have allowed Odium’s Investiture to enter him during the “Battle of the Storms.”
2. Eshonai already had an incipient bond with the comet spren. Maybe this made her a “man” to the Stormfather.
I’ve always though it odd the Stormfather allowed Eshonai to bond a voidspren. He calls oaths “The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.” Yet not once does the Stormfather refuse a requested bond. He gives me this feeling of “Okay, if you insist…” I understand he intends his comment to refer to “men.” But does the Stormfather himself have free will?
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Since this thread refuses to die, I’ll consolidate my “theory” limericks here. These are the summaries of my “Magic System Components” posts. I’ve linked the posts themselves for context.
All systems have Fuel and are Focused.
Shards added a User and Catalyst.
Mortals now can direct
Their own magic effect,
Like becoming a soul-forging analyst.Each system is powered by Fuel
Without which no magic can do.
Fuel’s usually Physical,
But sometimes it’s Spiritual,
Since Catalysts bring power too.A Focus determines which power
Is available and in what manner.
Each Focus is linked
To one power, I think,
And Khriss calls this process “an Investiture.”Only sapient beings are Users.
Their mind directs magic and chooses
The magic’s effect,
And what they select
Through their Spiritweb outpours and oozes.A “Catalyst” this substance Khriss calls,
For Shard power a Catalyst installs.
Composed of Shard essence,
Its heated tumescence
Adds energy to break through Realm walls.Lines 9-10 of Yeats’ “Leda and the Swan” inspired the last two lines of this limerick. That sonnet describes how Zeus, in the form of a swan, assaulted Leda, who birthed Helen of Troy and the Trojan War.
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For my 300th post, I want to thank the administrators, moderators, and each of you who keep this place alive and interesting and fun. I think of Brandon as more of a mystery writer than a fantasy writer because of how he drops clues and maintains suspense. The Shard is the best place there is to puzzle through the cosmere’s mysteries.
I’ll soon begin my “normal programming.” But I wanted to use this opportunity for something different. Best regards to all of you!
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Scadrial shows us class warfare. Sel shows us religious warfare. I think Roshar shows us race warfare.
QuoteThere are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice. Oathbringer, Chapter 4.
I read the Stormfather’s statement as one of racial superiority and arrogance towards the listeners. The Stormfather believes only “beasts” bond with “subspren,” presumably pre-Shattering sentient spren. Oaths are not involved in such bonds.
The Stormfather claims non-oath bonds don’t require “intelligence, free will, and choice.” While his statement also refers to greatshells, skyeels and other native lifeforms that bond spren, I believe listeners are his target, since the Stormfather lumps all “beasts and subspren” together. He sneers at non-sapient spren and the “beasts” they bond with.
Maybe Honor imparted a sense of racial superiority to the Stormfather through his cognitive shadow. Maybe humans personified the Stormfather to embody this attitude. But I think Odium “corrupted” the Stormfather. This is a “hateful” attitude. I believe Odium somehow inserted his Investiture into the Stormfather to effect subtle changes in his makeup.
There’s only scant evidence for this. Syl calls the Stormfather “broken,” although that can mean many things. We have examples of voidspren “corrupting” other spren. Brandon says, “many of these spren have that kind of ‘hole’ in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.”
I agree with @zandi that the “Fleet” chapter (WoR, Chapter 59) foreshadows the SLA ending. This also provides some evidence of Odium’s corruption of the Stormfather. I think Kaladin’s race with the “storm” (never identified as a highstorm) is the true duel between Honor’s and Odium’s champion. (I think Dalinar’s belief he’s seen “Odium’s champion” may be wrong.) Kaladin races the storm into Shinovar, where it loses its Investiture (including Odium’s), and becomes "normal" again. I don’t know why Kaladin would have raced the storm to his death and resurrection (assuming this is the ending foreshadowed) unless the race ensured Roshar’s survival.
My main point, though, is that the Stormfather expresses an attitude that leads to division and hatred. He expresses Odium’s attitude, not Honor’s. It is the attitude that leads to racial warfare and genocide, as we see on Roshar.
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On 9/4/2017 at 6:10 PM, Calderis said:
Spren as massive as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher though, are far to complex to be a simple idea given life.
I agree. We call the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher “godspren” for a reason. “God” is a complex idea. I speculate these spren originally personified pre-Shattering gods of storms and the earth (or some such deities). Their complexity is why I think such spren had to await sapient populations before they formed.
I also agree with @Cowmanthethird that, instead, a “massive” unnamed splinter originally distributed Stormlight. This splinter hadn’t yet been personified into a spren. Brandon talks about the difference between splinters and spren here. Your Roshar model can still be correct whether or not the Stormfather as godspren existed from the beginning. (That’s why my earlier post says these are quibbles and not a big deal.)
On 9/5/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:Greatshells cannot reach the top of their evolutionary before Spren came to be, due to them bonding with Spren. Possibly the same with the Parshendi.
I agree. Sentience precedes sapience. As species develop, their capacities grow. Spren that personify fire, wind, and life probably came into existence with the earliest sentient life.
Even now, however, I think greatshells and listeners bond with sentient, not sapient, spren for their changes. IOW, pre-Shattering sentient spren caused the species’ evolution to sapience. Once there, these species’ can conceive and personify “god,” creating the pre-Shattering versions of godspren.
On 9/5/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:we know humans existed on Roshar before the Shards arrived. The "Stormfather" could also exist before Honor co-opted him and the Highstorms. Probably didn't, but it's technically possible.
It's unsurprising humans found their way to Roshar pre-Shattering, but I don’t fully credit this paraphrased WoB. Memory and misinterpretation can easily translate “people” into “humans.” People – sapient species like Aimians and listeners – certainly existed on Roshar then. Regardless, humans would have lacked sufficient numbers then to much impinge on the other species’ collective mind.
I also appreciate the level of your conviction…
On 9/5/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:As for you being a "big name," sure why not? You are involved in a fair number of debates, people know your name, etc.. You've got a low post count, but you also seem to only post essays, so it qualifies.
Ha! Not my ambition, especially when hardly anyone agrees with my theories. During my tenure here, I do average almost a post per week. I guess it’s true I post essays. I like to think things through and document my views. That takes space and time. I truly believe if people read my theories carefully and with an open mind, they might find a lot that makes sense – or at least gets them thinking in different directions.
18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:This point is fairly important for my theory, because if the foci form as a result of the Shards power interacting with the planet (as I believe) rather than only from the planet itself, then I think it is very plausible for Dishardic worlds to have a focus for each Shard that resides there (or at least ones that were there when the magic system formed, as per our discussion about trellium earlier.)
I think each planet’s inherent Investiture and original “design” limit what might serve as a Focus there. The Shards adapted existing magic to form their magic systems, choosing a Focus consistent with the planet’s inherent Investiture and design. This sounds to me like Focuses develop from an interaction between the planet and the Shard, as you propose. I do think the planetary component precludes Shards who share planets to choose their own Focuses independent of the other resident Shard(s).
I explain what I think each planet’s original magic was in my Pre-Shattering Magic post. On Sel, Adonalsium Invested the ground. On Roshar, he Invested the highstorms. On Nalthis, he Invested electromagnetic radiation. On Taldain, he Invested the oceans.
Sel’s Focus is forms because the Shards IMO added their Investitures to the Investiture Adonalsium left in the ground. Shard Investiture turned topographic features rooted in the ground into the magical language that could direct and Focus the Dor. Their splintering fragmented the initial system, but I think that just created Focus “sub-types,” as you put it.
Roshar’s Focus is spren (IMO) because Adonalsium’s “touch and design” makes Roshar Realmically-permeable. Power leaks into Roshar’s Cognitive Realm and Invests ideas before the power passes into the Physical Realm. Khriss says Shard Investiture “expanded” this spren-based system to, among other things, create Radiantspren as Surgebinding’s Focus (IMO).
Nalthis’ Focus is its visualized commands, with emphasis on the visualization. I think this grows out of Nalthis’ original “quantum physics” design that I describe in the “Pre-Shattering Magic” post. Awakeners’ visualization IMO calls to mind “Schrodinger’s cat” and the ardents’ WoK experiment that fixes the length of firespren: only when an object is observed (and Cognitively “imprinted”) can its actual state be known. To imprint behavior onto the Breath of an Awakened object, Awakeners must visualize how they want the object to behave. Brandon says commands are “like your mind reaching into the Spiritual Realm and you have to like conceive something.”
Taldain’s Focus is unknown. I speculate it’s an Autonomy splinter that attaches itself to the Sand Master. I further speculate the splinter chooses its host based on the host’s degree of self-reliance. I suspect this splinter resembles Radiantspren and Divine Breath, which also choose a host based on character. Please note this is raw speculation without much evidence.
I think Ruin and Preservation’s Investiture and design of Scadrial acts the same toward later Shard arrivals. As Brandon says, Odium (and implicitly Trell) would have to substantially Invest Scadrial to influence its magic. He notes Scadrians already have an Identity tied to current Scadrial. Brandon calls Scadrial’s magic “goofy” because Scadrial is composed solely of Ruin and Preservation.
18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:The only real problem that I have with this theory is that it still doesn't address the wierdness with the groupings, because the metal focused Hemalurgic spikes would still give the ability to transfer innate Investiture of different types in the same strange groupings, independent of whether its based on the Allomantic and Feurchemical properties or not.
The theory doesn’t have to address “the weirdness with the groupings.” IMO, those groupings are irrelevant to the issue of Focus. IMO, Hemalurgy would observe the “one Focus per power” rule even if it could transfer all innate Investitures of every kind all at once, whether Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual. Focus is a function of the Hemalurgical power itself and how Ruin chooses to implement it, not the abilities Hemalurgy conveys to the target.
FWIW, the distinction between Shard power and other Investitures underlies all my theories and causes me the most difficulties in my Forum debates. “Power,” “true Investiture,” “the godly powers,” “the energy of Shards” – whatever name you want to call it – is IMO different from the specialized Investitures power creates on each planet.
Preservation’s power created Allomancy, which relies on the Allomantic gene’s specialized Investiture to work. Preservation’s and Ruin’s combined power created Feruchemy, which relies on the Feruchemical gene’s specialized Investiture to work.
Ruin’s power created Hemalurgy, which relies on Ruin’s expression of the Hemalurgical power to work. Innate Investiture is what Hemalurgy works on. Innate Investiture confers magical abilities, but is not power itself. It is the Focused expression of power, a specialized type of Investiture. (Redundancy is why my posts are so long…)
18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:On the point of other Shards using Hemalurgy, I read that WoB more like: "The god-like powers that all Shards have access to are the same, but the different magic systems express different aspects of them." Meaning that while other Shards have some ability to transfer innate Investiture, it's only called 'Hemalurgy' when it's Ruin's expression of that power. I can see how it could be interpreted either way though, and this is really an unimportant nitpick.
Fair enough. “Hema” makes it Ruin’s. IMO, Shai’s Soul Forgery and Shallan’s Lightweaving use the same “soul transformation” power. I take your point.
I add only that IMO other Shards all have the same ability to transfer innate Investiture, but use different means. That where the interaction of Shard and Shardworld becomes important, defining the limits of a Shard’s expression of its power on a Shardworld. Brandon says Shards may choose not to use a power because the Shard-Shardworld constraints make it too Investiture-costly for them to want to.
18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to get at when I said 'natural' Stormlight, and I just couldn't find the words.
You’re very welcome! And an upvote to you for politeness and sheer persistence!
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Hmmmm…. This thread discusses a lot of interesting topics. Very informative and entertaining – exactly what the 17th Shard should be!
Hemalurgy’s Focus
I think there’s a difference between the Hemalurgical power and Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities. IMO, Hemalurgy is not, as @The One Who Connects puts it, a "’same metal, multiple powers’ thing.”
The only Shard power involved in Hemalurgy IMO is the power to transfer innate Investiture from one person to another. Different Hemalurgical metals Focus the Hemalurgical power to transfer different grouped abilities.
For Focus purposes, I don’t think it matters that the metals transfer related abilities in groups. Those abilities stem from the victim’s innate Investiture and not the Hemalurgical power. That innate Investiture doesn’t need to be Focused. The power to transfer that innate Investiture does.
Brandon says (somewhere) that Hemalurgy is as much art as magic. IIRC, the art inheres in the knowledge of where to place the spikes. I agree with consensus that spike-placement (in both victim and target) determines the target’s abilities based on the transferred innate Investiture. But I think the metal-Focused Hemalurgical power first must make the spike capable of capturing and transferring the innate Investiture that grants those abilities.
On a related issue, I think the Hemalurgical power is available to every Shard. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are not of the Shards, but are “simply tools.” Shard Mandates (intents) determine how that power is accessed and expressed.
Violent metal spikes are Ruin’s expression of Hemalurgy. It’s available anywhere because of its metal Focus. Other Shards IMO also use the Hemalurgical power, but in their own way. I think simple Breath transfers are a benign form of Hemalurgy consistent with Endowment’s life-giving Mandate. One person passes his Breath, his innate Investiture, to another. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) utilizes Odium’s form of Hemalurgy (a topic for another day).
Pre- and Post-Shattering Roshar
I have some quibbles (nothing big) with @Calderis’ analysis of Roshar's magical history. Khriss describes Roshar’s current magic as an “expansion” of its pre-Shattering spren-based magic. There are, nevertheless, some differences in the Investitures and spren available on Roshar pre- and post-Shattering.
On 8/25/2017 at 0:44 PM, Calderis said:The natural laws of the magic centered around bonds, especially symbiotic bonds, is grown out of the nature of Roshar itself interacting with the investiture of Adonalsium (as this is a world whose systems, ecosystem, magic focus, and native life, predates the shattering.)
The “Investiture of Adonalsium” created Roshar as it originally was. That Investiture didn’t “interact” with Roshar; it built Roshar. IMO, everything Adonalsium created is “natural” simply because he created it. I think there is a “natural form of Stormlight” (by whatever name) without Honor’s Investiture. Shards later “interacted” with the Roshar Adonalsium created, and they changed things.
On 8/25/2017 at 0:44 PM, Calderis said:for it to have developed as it has, centering around the use of ambient investiture in the form of stormlight, Adonalsium had to break off the splinter that is the Stormfather before life existed on Roshar for evolution to take the path that it has there.
Do you mean the Stormfather always existed? If so, I disagree.
Spren are personified ideas. I think Roshar needs a sapient population capable of personification before splinters can become spren. That means spren can’t form until greatshells, Aimians and listeners reach the top of the evolutionary ladder. Their collective minds then personify the highstorms into the Rider of Storms (not the Stormfather). Roshar’s Investiture always existed, but I don’t think it formed itself into spren at the beginning. I do agree Roshar’s “natural laws” made spren development possible, even inevitable.
I also agree Stormlight (as constituted both pre- and post-Shattering) is critical to Roshar’s evolution. But spren IMO reflect evolutionary development rather than cause it. I think local lifeforms must first develop sapience for spren to appear.
On 8/25/2017 at 0:44 PM, Calderis said:The system relies on the Stormfather to feed investiture, but he predates it. The rules that govern that system are a production of investiture interacting with the shardworld, and so by being present there, he can work within the system, but he can't be fully constrained by it as he predates it.
The Rider of Storms predates the current system, not the Stormfather. As a splinter of Adonalsium’s Investiture, the Rider may not act like the Stormfather. Stormlight now includes Honor’s Mandated Investiture. Maybe the Rider of Storms was a Dawnshard that could bind both voidish and mortal? (Another topic.) We don’t know.
I think human migration and Honor’s Investiture in Roshar converted the Rider of Storms into the Stormfather. Humans personify the highstorms differently from the listeners. Honor has made the highstorms into his perpendicularity. As Spiritual Realm Investiture passes through the Cognitive Realm’s Stormfather into Roshar’s Physical Realm, Stormlight IMO becomes Honor-laden, changing Roshar’s ecosystem from how it was pre-Shattering.
I also think, Calderis, your analysis may undermine your bond-Focus theory. The Stormfather turns raw, “consistent” Spiritual Realm Investiture – Shard power – into Stormlight, a unique form of local Investiture. I call that operation “Focusing” power, distilling it from the general to the specific. That suggests a spren – the Stormfather – is Stormlight’s Focus.
Housekeeping and Forum Etiquette
@The One Who Connects, thanks for referring to 3 of my posts! Heady stuff! I think the only other time a poster quoted a post from a different thread, they inadvertently – and wrongly – cited me as authority against myself! (That was unusual...) Does this mean I’m one of the “’big names’ on here” now? (JK.)
Like @Cowmanthethird, I’ve felt heat from those who are “frustrated” at “being right/knowing what we're talking about” who must deal with the less enlightened. I’ve been on the other side too and come across more “overconfident” than I intended…perhaps even in this post. That can be off-putting.
I value your thoughts about this and your willingness to share them. It’s a reminder that outliers and different drummers have feelings too.
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5 hours ago, Calderis said:
I also thought that R&P fully created Scadrial from nothing, but I had that pounded out of me. The world is more strongly invested than normal, but they used existing materials from the solar system to do so.
Calderis, I also think “R&P fully created Scadrial from nothing.” Did I miss something?
Here’s my understanding, and I welcome text or WoB correction:
1. Adonalsium creates the cosmere. Pre-Shattering, the Physical Realm consists entirely of his essence. IIRC, Brandon has never fully defined “essence.” I define it as “raw power” that's been converted into some other substance, whether matter, energy or another form of Investiture.
2. Adonalsium Shatters and the Vessels assume his power. Ruin and Preservation, alone among the Shards, go off to make something entirely new – Scadrial. This WoB states Scadrial is “goofy” for that reason.
3. Scadrial consists 100% of Ruin and Preservtation’s essence, their power converted into that planet. I think they didn’t so much use “existing materials” as conform Scadrial to the same physical/chemical structure as existing materials. Otherwise, Scadrial wouldn’t be 100% Shard essence.
4. Brandon says Scadrial is less heavily Invested than most planets, not “more strongly invested than normal.”
Calderis, in response to your “agreement to disagree” post above:
Calderis and I disagree
In how we read this WoB
I value debate
But Words rarely relate
To the “truth” that we each think we see.Most things are subject to interpretation. Thanks for continuing the conversation.
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I think Sadeas is Odium’s champion. He’s the best representative of the Thrill, as foreshadowed by his musings after acquiring Oathbringer. He once was an excellent duelist.
I’ve long believed the Heralds are spren that personify their Divine Attributes. The Investiture in Honorblades is like the Divine Breath that resurrects a Returned. On Roshar, that Investiture manifests as spren. I think the Heralds “return” by taking over someone’s body who shares their attributes. IMO, that was the model for Radiantspren bonding.
I believe the sapient Unmade are Odium’s version of the Heralds (and Returned). They are the souls of the listener gods, and they take over (“unmake”) dead bodies. I suspect those dead souls must also show an affinity for the Unmade who possesses them.
That’s why I think Sadeas with the “familiar eyes” is a good candidate for the Odiumspren who personifies the Thrill. Since Honor foresaw Kholinar’s destruction, he could easily have foreseen Sadeas’ role in it.
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14 minutes ago, Calderis said:
It's not the same thing. Because Allomancy can't burn straight investiture without destroying the physical body, whereas surgebinding can't function without using raw investiture.
Allomancy CAN "burn straight Investiture without destroying the physical body." Vin burned the mists when she took on TLR. She didn't vaporize then, because she took in less of the mists than she did when she ascended.
Again, all Catalysts are made from Shard essence. Because Scadrial is made only from Shard essence - and metals are Preservation's "concentrated essence" - metals suffice there. But elsewhere, where Adonalsium's essence predominates, the super-fuel of Shard essence is found in the Shard Investitures themselves, the only distinct part of their "bodies" on those planets.
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13 minutes ago, Calderis said:
The Spren or the bond depending on your interpretation shape the investiture to the desired effect the same way the metal chooses the power.
Using Stormlight is like burning the mists, except the system is designed for that so it doesn't tear you apart.
Now I'm confused (pun unintended). This sounds like you agree with me. Yes, "Stormlight is like burning the mists." Exactly! When you burn the mists on Scadrial, you vaporize because the power is Investing you directly rather than through the metal Focus. There's nothing to slow down or restrict the power flow. Also, Vin kept burning the mists, Investing herself with lots of power.
I believe that's how all Catalysts work. The difference on the other Major Shardworlds is, as you say, their system designs limit how much power a User can access. Surgebinders can infuse only so much Stormlight, and it's either consumed or dissipates. Sand Masters can only dehydrate so much. Sel's forms as Focuses automatically limit the Dor's flow. And I believe (but am not sure) that there is a relationship between the number of Breaths one holds and the amount of Invested EMR one can drain that protects the Awakener from vaporization.
If that's what you're saying, then we agree.
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The Mechanics of Roshar’s Five Magic Systems
in Stormlight Archive
Posted
Brandon says Roshar has three magic systems, plus the “weird” Old Magic. I think Voidbringing is a fifth Rosharan magic system. This post explores how I believe each magic system works.
Quick background: Forum consensus agrees there are at least three magic system components: “Fuel” (Investiture that causes the magic), “Focus” (a component that determines the power available for magic), and “Magic User” (the person who directs the magic). I think there’s a fourth component, “Catalyst,” which Khriss describes as a substance Magic Users consume to cause Shard power to Invest them. (BoM Ars Arcanum - Allomancy.) Catalysts, IMO, make the Magic User an Invested object capable of directing the Invested power.
I believe there are three types of magic systems, all of which are found on Roshar. “Interaction with nature” systems use Fuel and a means to Focus power. In “people with magic” systems, Magic Users can direct the magic. Some“people with magic” systems use a Catalyst to access power, and some don’t.
IMO, these are the Rosharan Shards’ Mandates (intents): Honor makes bonds, Cultivation makes change, and Odium breaks bonds. I think every Rosharan Magic User, mortal or voidish, uses the same powers, what Rosharans call Surges. Shard Mandates determine how Magic Users use the powers.
Background done. Here are the systems, starting with the ones we know best.
Surgebinding (Catalytic system)
The Magic User is the Surgebinder. I agree with those who think spren are Roshar’s Focus. (Some posters think Roshar’s bonds are its Focus.) I believe Radiantspren’s mixed Investitures make them dual Focuses.
IMO, Honor and/or Cultivation’s power is Surgebinding’s Fuel. Surgebinders consume Stormlight as their Catalyst to cause power to Invest them. The Radiantspren as Focus determine which power Invests the Surgebinder. I think the Surgebinder “binds” the Surges by directing the Invested power to create the magical effect – choosing gravity’s vector or drawing a new persona.
Fabrials (Catalytic “people with magic” system)
The fabrial user turns the fabrial on and off, and IMO is the Magic User. I think the gem-captured spren is the Focus. IMO, the gemstone filters Stormlight to replicate the symbiotic conditions of a gemheart. Spren consume the Stormlight and Focus their power on the machine they think is a lifeform. The spren-Focused power animates the machine for the desired magical effect. Shard power is the Fuel, and Stormlight is the Catalyst.
Voidbinding (Catalytic “people with magic” system)
I theorize Voidbinding is Odium’s form of Surgebinding. Because Surgebinding needs the Nahel bond to bind Surges, I speculate Voidbinding breaks bonds to bind the Surges. I think Voidbinding binds the same Surges as Surgebinding, except the Bondsmith Surges (or maybe just the Bondsmith’s “perks”).
I think Voidbinding is a Catalytic system. I speculate the Nine Unmade combine two Voidbinding abilities like Heralds (other than the Bondsmith). “Void Knights” (if they exist) would have their patron Unmade’s abilities, like KR. The Unmade and any Void Knights would be Magic Users, voidspren would be the Focus, “Voidlight” the Catalyst, and Odium’s power the Fuel.
If Odium’s power breaks bonds, then Voidlight IMO destroys matter. Only bondless bits remain – a Void of unreflected light. I think Voidlight’s Spiritual energy shows in Gavilar’s sphere, but nothing else, not even the spren it contains. I suggest an “Ever-Stormfather” Focuses Odium’s power into Voidlight, like the Stormfather Focuses Honor’s power (IMO) into Stormlight.
Voidbringing (Non-Catalytic “people with magic” system)
I believe Odium Investiture in voidspren form invades other spren like a virus. The “virus” voidspren replaces the target spren’s Spiritual DNA. Odium can then change and control the target spren’s host.
I think Voidbringing most resembles Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy’s power to transfer innate Investiture Invests the metal spike. Voidspren, to me, equate to Hemalurgical spikes. Odium Invests each voidspren with the power to replace the target spren’s Investiture with its own. That power IMO is Voidbringing’s Fuel. Like spren in Roshar’s other magic systems, voidspren are Voidbringing’s Focus.
I believe Hemalurgy and Voidbringing are non-Catalytic systems because power Invests the spike/voidspren, not the Magic User. Until stormspren summon the Ever-Stormfather, IMO Odium’s power can’t be Focused into Voidlight. Hence, Voidbringing can work without a Catalyst.
Sja-anat (mentioned in Dalinar’s Purelake vision) seems able to direct Voidbringing. If so, Sja-anat is a Magic User. We don’t know if a Void Knight Order supports Sja-Anat or if other Unmade can Voidbring. It’s possible Odium alone Voidbrings. Without Magic Users, Voidbringing would be an “interaction with nature” system, mirroring Roshar’s pre-Shattering ecosystem with corrupted spren.
The “Old Magic” (“Interaction with nature” system)
I think the Old Magic is an Adonalsium-created “interaction with nature” system that Shard Investiture changed. I speculate the Nightwatcher (by some other name) began as a large splinter that native Rosharans personified into a sapient spren. We don’t know its original magic. I think Cultivation’s Investiture and human personification of Cultivation morphed that spren into the Nightwatcher.
IMO, as an “interaction with nature” system, the Old Magic has two components. The Old Magic’s Fuel is Cultivation’s power. Its Focus is the Nightwatcher herself. The Old Magic remains an “interaction with nature” system, though Shard Invested, because mortals don’t direct its magic. They can ask the Nightwatcher for a boon; but she determines both the boon and the curse. Av tells Baxil, the Nightwatcher “gives [the boon] she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it.” (WoK, Interlude I-7, Kindle p. 709.)