Confused
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On 1/19/2020 at 7:04 PM, Confused said:
My theory posits Shards magically differ only in how they give access to their Investiture, not in what their Investiture can do.
On 1/19/2020 at 8:56 PM, Karger said:Brandon has confirmed that different shards do have differently "flavored" investiture. There clearly is a difference.Agreed. But this difference – a Shard’s “flavor” or “spin” or “magnetism” or “filter” – IS each Shard’s unique means of access to Investiture. Ruin, for example, can grant Allomantic powers but only through an act of entropy – spiking. Honor grants the flying power through voluntary bonds. These three WoBs confirm this:
“The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”
“The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”
This is a VERY important and often overlooked aspect of the Shards. Frankly, I believe it’s impossible to understand Shards without understanding the different ways they give access to Investiture. The OP posits Autonomy gives access through fractals, a “flavor” that fascinates Brandon. I’d like to read your response to my views on Avatars and Aviar magic.
On 1/19/2020 at 8:56 PM, Karger said:Additionally fueling surges of the same type with different investiture will have slightly different effects.
Do you here refer to the Fused using Stormlight? You and I have discussed this before and (up to now) disagree. I believe the Fused Voidbind; you believe they hack Surgebinding. Maybe the three cited WoBs now persuade you the Fused do Voidbind? The Fused access Investiture by Odium’s means, not Honor’s. Odium “takes your pain” – breaks your emotional Connections, IMO – to grant his magic. Odium doesn’t grant his magic through bonds. “The means of getting powers...are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”
General Undirected Observation: People engage on the Forums for all sorts of reasons. I’m a puzzle-solver. Sound theory to me means look at the cosmere as both metaphor and machine. I feel too many overlook the mechanics, like how Shards give access to Investiture. Henry David Thoreau said it best:
Quote“If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.” [Walden, reprinted here.]
Metaphor and machine...
Regards! C.
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I highly recommend the November 2019 Autonomy Shardcast. @Chaos, @thegatorgirl00, @Argent, and @Overlord Jebus do a great job going over the Autonomy essentials with relevant text and WoBs. Their Trell analysis alone is worth the listen.
The Shardcasters, though, offer no unifying principle to explain Bavadin/Autonomy’s many oddities. My “Comprehensive Magic Theory” proposes such a principle: fractals. Fractals are progressively smaller-scaled versions of the same pattern, all of which make one whole. Avatars seem smaller-scaled versions of Autonomy, and I speculate Autonomy’s magic (Sand Mastery and Aviar) relies on Splinters that are still smaller-scaled Autonomy versions. All remain “one whole,” since (a recent WoB suggests) Autonomy controls their Avatars through an inter-Connected mind. Don’t hang up yet...Let me explain.
Background: Shard “Primal Forces”
My theory posits Shards magically differ only in how they give access to their Investiture, not in what their Investiture can do. Ruin’s magic users access Investiture through some act of entropy; Preservation’s through some act of stasis; and Honor’s through a voluntary bond between people. Brandon alternately calls these different means of access to Investiture “primal forces,” “fundamental laws,” and “something...natural.” Shards are “primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality...[a] cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural.”
Brandon cites his fascination with fractals. I think he wants a “personality aspect/cultural component” to represent a fractal primal force. Fractals are too common in nature for him to ignore. I believe Brandon settled on “Autonomy” as the “charged term” for a Shard that gives access to Investiture through fractals.
What Are Fractals
Mandelbrot (of @Extesian's Mandelbrot Set icon) coined the term “fractal” in 1975: "a fractal is a geometric shape that can be separated into parts, each of which is a reduced-scale version of the whole." Here’s another description:
QuoteA fractal is a never-ending pattern. Fractals are infinitely complex patterns that are self-similar across different scales. They are created by repeating a simple process over and over in an ongoing feedback loop.... Fractal patterns are extremely familiar, since nature is full of fractals. For instance: trees, rivers, coastlines, mountains, clouds, seashells, hurricanes, etc. Abstract fractals – such as the Mandelbrot Set – can be generated by a computer calculating a simple equation over and over. [Source.]
The main points:
- Smaller-scaled fractals show the same pattern as the whole.
- Fractals can infinitely self-replicate that pattern.
- Smaller-scaled fractals remain part of the larger whole (the most important point, IMO).
Why I Associate Fractals with Autonomy
Brandon himself asks:
QuoteI find Autonomy a very interesting [Shard]. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? [Source.]
If you get rid of the charged term “autonomy” – the sense of freedom, self-reliance, etc. – I think you’re left with a primal force that focuses on fractal self-containedness. Each fractal bears the same pattern as the others but is its own autonomous unit. The ongoing looped process that creates fractals ensures each fractal will continue to make more, smaller-scaled autonomous fractals of the same pattern.
What Are Avatars
Fractal creation seems to me exactly what Autonomy does when they create Avatars, smaller-scaled versions of themselves that remain part of the whole. Brandon describes the “standard” Avatar – a smaller, less-powerful-than-a-Shard combination of mind and Investiture:
QuotePod
The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power?
Brandon Sanderson
I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard.
Questions: (1) What are the non-standard types of Avatars; and (2) how do Avatars differ from other large forms of sapient Investiture like Roshar’s great spren? Two recent WoBs give some insight:
QuoteOversleep
Okay now I have one about Shard avatars, like Autonomy's. Is it possible for one to form without the Shard's Vessel directly making it, so independent...
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, it is. They would be aware of it, however. They couldn't not be aware of it, but it could arise without their direct and conscious decision to do so.
Oversleep
And the one on First of the Sun, is it by Autonomy's direct...
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, that is directly created.
Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) (bold added).
QuoteQuestioner
So Bavadin's avatar *inaudible*.
Brandon Sanderson
One of Bavadin's avatars.
Questioner
Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?
Brandon Sanderson
The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter.
Questioner
My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?
Brandon Sanderson
That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) (bold added).
Answers: These WoBs say,
1. Avatars can spawn spontaneously without Bavadin consciously creating them.
2. Bavadin is always aware of their Avatars including spontaneously spawned ones.
3. Bavadin personally directs the Avatars that lack self-awareness. I speculate these non-self-aware Avatars are the non-standard ones.
These Avatar characteristics match the fractal behavior I describe above. Avatars spawn spontaneously because fractals can infinitely self-replicate their pattern. Bavadin is always aware of their Avatars because all fractals are part of the larger whole. Maybe other living Shards spontaneously Splinter and maybe they retain some awareness of their Splinters, but the extent of their attention is unclear. Odium does not seem aware of Sja-anat’s treachery, for example.
Item 3 in particular may be unique to Autonomy. I don’t recall another Shard whose Vessel personally directs large independent chunks of its Investiture. The only known large Investiture chunks are Roshar’s great spren and the nascent Mother Sel (AU, “The Selish System,” Kindle pp. 18). Yet the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling each have their own mind and personality; and Mother Sel seems to be forming her own mind. In contrast to Autonomy’s control of their Avatars, Cultivation encourages the Nightwatcher to grow her own abilities, as befits that Shard.
Hypothesis: Maybe Avatars differ from other sapient Investiture chunks because Avatars remain subject to Autonomy’s control – just like fractals are smaller-scaled versions of the whole. Bavadin writes to Hoid as “us” and “we.” I suspect Autonomy at some level controls even the self-directing Avatars that have their own personality. We know Autonomy creates pantheons where they are every god of every gender – smaller versions of Bavadin. This would explain why Brandon says, “The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium.” Since Autonomy maintains their control of Patji, a smaller-scaled version of themselves, Patji IS a Shard, part of Autonomy.
How Fractals Fit Autonomy’s Magic
Honor is not the only Shard that bonds, Ruin isn’t the only Shard that destroys, and Autonomy is not the only Shard that creates fractals (Pattern, anyone?). But IMO each of them ARE the only Shards that give access to their Investiture through bonding, entropy, and fractals respectively.
Avatar Creation
Autonomy creates standard Avatars by first finding a “gathering” of their “assigned Investiture.” Brandon says, “in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing” and all share the mark of the Shard’s “spin,” its primal force/fundamental law/something natural. This maintains the 16-Shard balance when Investiture converts into matter or energy and back again. I believe Autonomy searches for sources of Physical Realm fractals large enough to sustain an Avatar.
Autonomy’s only known Avatar is Patji on First of the Sun. Bavadin mentions “Obrodai” and its nascent Avatar in their letter to Hoid, but that may just be their name for First of the Sun. Roshar also holds a “gathering of [Autonomy’s assigned] Investiture” that does not (yet?) appear to be an Avatar.
First of the Sun/Obrodai and Roshar are ocean planets with little land. In their letter, Bavadin seems to enjoy oceans: "But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains....” (OB Chapter 48 Epigraph.) Adonalsium built the Rosharan continent from Roshar’s ocean floor using the Julia set, a fractal geometry equation. I suggest Roshar’s many fractals (including its gemstones/gemhearts) form Autonomy’s “gathering” of assigned Investiture. IMO, the Patji pantheon (and the Obrodai Avatar if different from Patji) are also land masses built from the oceans on fractal geometry principles.
I speculate Autonomy Connects each Avatar to Bavadin’s mind to retain control of the whole. Autonomy programs the Avatar as they choose. Standard Avatars may have a separate personality. Bavadin’s letter to Hoid describes Obrodai’s Avatar: “She is young yet, and – as a precaution – she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you." (OB Chapter 50 Epigraph.) Through this inter-Connected mind, the Shard remains a whole comprised of many smaller-scaled versions of themselves.
Sand Mastery
Sand ribbons are my only evidence Sand Master innate Investiture is a fractal. More powerful Sand Masters can simultaneously control more ribbons. Younger or weaker magic users can only manipulate a single ribbon. This suggests each sand ribbon has a separate source, a separate Autonomy fractal the Sand Master directs. Through training, more powerful Sand Masters may strengthen whatever in their character, talent, and skill Initiated them into Sand Mastery. Those strengthened conditions may cause the fractal to self-replicate. I speculate each new fractal allows the Master to direct a new ribbon.
Aviar
My analysis here is equally speculative, but I do have support. Brandon says the Aviar-human bond
Quoteis not as powerful [as the Nahel bond]; because of that it is easier to shift between people. What you gain is not as strong, but you also gain flexibility. But it would be, cosmerologically, considered the same thing. [Source (bold added).]
I believe the language I bolded highlights fractal characteristics. Brandon says he chose fractals for the Rosharan continent’s shape because “I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit.” Fractals can spontaneously self-replicate to shift a bond. Fractal flexibility allows them to take any shape in any medium, as earth’s natural features show.
QuoteAviar have a symbiosis with an Invested entity. Aviar are more like, they're kind of weird because they fulfill both the role of a spren, but also the person that's bonding the spren. They're an intermediary. [Source.]
The Invested entity is the Aviar’s human bond-mate. Aviar are “an intermediary” because unlike spren the magic isn’t really the Aviar’s. They acquire it by eating Invested worms, fulfilling the role of “the person that’s bonding the spren.”
How does the human become an “Invested entity”? My guess is Aviar Initiation is like Sand Mastery’s. Patji’s trappers must prevail against the planet’s most dangerous predators and hazards. Bavadin tells Hoid: “If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created. Only in this will you earn our respect.” (OB Chapter 51 Epigraph.) I speculate when trappers “overcome” their tests, Patji rewards them by Splintering off a new fractal into their sDNA to bond an Aviar with.
Aviar magic, like Sand Mastery, relies on a Cognitive bond between lifeforms. Water forges and maintains the Sand Master’s bond with Invested microflora (AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle pp. 369-370); and I believe it maintains all Patji’s Cognitive bonds. Dusk thinks, “Nobody knew why beasts like the shadows only lived here, in the waters near the Pantheon.” (SotD, Kindle Loc 49.) We know the answer is Patji’s Eye, whose Investiture-laced water flows into the sea. These sea predators “did not hunt by smell or sight, but by sensing the minds of prey.” (SotD, Kindle Loc 20.)
On Patji Dusk observes, “the beasts that hunted minds on the island were not as large or as strong of psyche as the shadows of the ocean.” (SotD, Kindle Loc 100.) Dusk describes the “dense humidity of Patji’s jungle.” (SotD, Kindle Loc 784.) I speculate land predators catch their prey’s thoughts through the moisture-laden air. Humidity is a weaker water bridge than oceans, which seem to conduct thoughts better. The weaker bridge IMO comparatively weakens the land predators.
Conclusion
Every Shard IMO accesses Investiture through a different “primal force/fundamental law/something natural.” Avatars, Sand Mastery, and Aviar make fractals my best guess for Autonomy’s primal force (for now). Regards! C.
Predictions:
Spoiler1. Roshar’s Sibling is a fractal that is part of Autonomy.
2. Dysian Aimians are fractals that also associate with Autonomy. They too are one mind aware of and controlling all its parts.
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Happy New Year, everyone! I’ve been away from the Forums a few months and have a bunch to say about topics related to the OP: the futility of naming unknown Shards; over-anthropomorphizing Shards; where is Nalthis’ ambient Investiture; is Shard uniqueness inherent in Investiture; Connections and time; and pathways to power.
Naming Shards
@Ixthos and @Parallax, your Shard naming models and analyses are first-rate. But Brandon says Shard names are “charged terms” for certain unchanging principles the Shards embody. I think we can’t name a Shard without first identifying its unchanging principle.
Shards are “primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality.” I believe Shard magical uniqueness resides in these primal forces (which Brandon also describes as ”something natural” and “fundamental laws”). The OP theorizes each primal force grants magic users access to a different Shard’s Investiture. I think of primal forces as the keys to the “vaults” that hold each Shards’ 1/16th Investiture share.
Shard names IMO depict a cultural interpretation of the Shard’s unique magic. (“They” call me Odium, Rayse tells Dalinar.) Ruin and Preservation are “charged terms” for how these Shards’ grant access to Investiture – through acts of entropy and stasis. Honor is the “charged term” for a primal force that voluntarily bonds people.
Brandon only confirms Ruin, Preservation, and Honor’s primal forces. Text and WoB allow me to make controversial guesses as to the other known Shards’ primal forces. Without any knowledge of the unknown Shards, I think we can’t begin to guess what charged terms might name them.
Anthropomorphizing Shards
Many posters believe a Shard’s “intent” controls its Vessel’s non-magical behavior. Honor, for example, must act “honorably.” IMO, Shards only affect their Vessel’s magical behavior.
Tanavast himself may be an “honorable” man (“they [the assassin-conspirators] are all honorable men”). Honor the Shard, however, grants access to its magic through a voluntary bond between people. Culture calls that voluntary bond “Honor.” Yet Heralds and Surgebinders alike use their Honor-granted powers to murder and enslave. Kaladin has a different notion of “honor” than, say, Jasnah. Honor the Shard and honor the personality trait bear little resemblance.
Brandon says,
Quoteit is possible for intents to not align and someone to take a Shard. It's way easier if intents do align, but humans don't tend to align 100% to any specific intent. [Source. The questioner defines “intent” as “general intent/mindset.”]
I read this to mean a potential Vessel doesn’t have to share any personality trait with the Shard to ascend. Even where the initial Shard Connection is weak, as with Ati, living off the Shard’s power inevitably strengthens the Connection. Shards in the end overwhelm their Vessel, making a strong initial Connection unnecessary.
Even at that point, the Shard’s compulsions IMO remain magical in effect. Leras can’t kill Elend because Preservation’s magical nature bars it. Leras at the time is fully subject to Preservation’s influence. To direct Preservation’s power, Leras must Intend and perform an act of stasis. Killing Elend is destruction (entropy) – Ruin not Preservation. Full magical alignment squeezes out a Vessel’s ability to Connect to another Shard. Hence, Sazed's struggles.
In contrast, Kelsier and Vin are Vessels who wield Preservation’s power before they succumb to the Shard. Both remain capable of destruction. Kelsier is too Connected to Ruin to effectively direct Preservation against Ruin; but I believe if Kelsier holds Preservation long enough, he too would fully embody stasis. Vin is able to kill Ati because she has just ascended. Brandon says, “Vin could have understood and become [Ruin],” though her fear of abandonment made her better suited to Preservation. This WoB shows there is no necessary relationship between Vessel personality and Shard when the Vessel ascends.
Nalthis Investiture for Awakening?
What are everyone’s theories on the source of Awakening’s Investiture (as fuel) on Nalthis? Brandon says Awakening can use any Investiture including Stormlight as fuel. That’s great on Roshar, but where’s the Nalthian Investiture? (While Breaths can be used as fuel, Awakeners generally recover the same number of Breaths they initially transfer and don’t consume Breaths.) The OP presents two possible but inconclusive sources. What are your thoughts?
Is Shard Uniqueness Inherent in its Investiture?
@Calderis believes a Shard’s magical uniqueness is inherent in its Investiture, not forged through Connection:
On 9/19/2019 at 6:36 PM, Calderis said:I believe that the intents as we know them were pieces of Adonalsium's mind. I think that tearing his mind apart, creating the Shards, was the same action that "killed" him.
Because of this, I think the "spin" is an inherent property of the Investiture itself, and as such it creates a Connection across all of the Investiture of that Shard.
Both approaches are valid – not disprovable – and I think both approaches should work the same mechanically. The following discussion to me is thus interesting but academic. Two reasons I prefer my approach: the relationship between “raw Investiture” and Connections, and the unlikelihood Adonalsium’s mind could be equally divided into 16 personality traits.
“Raw Investiture” and Connections
IMO, “raw Investiture” has no Connections. A Spiritual aspect is “a mix of [a person’s] connections to places, people, and times with raw investiture.” Take away the Connections and all that remains is the “raw” stuff of magic.
To me, Connections “program” raw Investiture with each Spiritual aspect’s unique identifying data – whom people love, how fast they can run, how heavy is a stone. I believe Connections collectively carry the cosmere's full data set. All else IMO is “raw Investiture.”
I think “spin” is a Connection – each Shard’s unique “primal force/fundamental law/something natural.” I believe pre-Shattering Spiritual Realm Investiture (Adonalsium) was blank of “spin.” Adonalsium imparted “spin” to Investiture when he used some primal force to direct that Investiture: entropy, bonding, stasis, etc. IMO, his direction stamped the Connection, the “spin” that permanently marks the primal force’s role.
16 Equal Shards
I think the Shattering for the first time marked “spin” on never-used Spiritual Realm Investiture. That became necessary to maintain the 16-Shard balance. While Adonalsium lived, balance wasn’t a problem. However the Vessels Shattered Adonalsium, they had to Connect themselves to previously raw, un-Connected Spiritual Realm Investiture. Brandon says “a lot [was] going on with” creating Connections at the Shattering.
We know Adonalsium could have Shattered into different Shards. That means the Vessels chose the 16 Shards they would direct post-Shattering. Frost confirms this in his letter to Hoid (WoR, Chapter 59 Epigraph): “[Rayse] is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.”
Your approach, Cal, implies Adonalsium’s mind divided equally into the 16 Shards pre-Shattering. Otherwise some small pieces of Adonalsium’s mind beyond the 16 Shards would have survived the “tearing apart” that killed him. I would expect a Creator to have all possible traits of all the cosmere’s people regardless of culture or species – way more than 16 personality traits. Why did the Shattering result in these 16 traits and in equal measure? Do you think the Vessels gave Adonalsium a personality test?
I think the “primal force” analysis works because IMO the Vessels couldn’t divide Adonalsium evenly by personality trait. Instead they agreed on something they could do: access their 1/16th Investiture share with a different key, their unique primal force.
Splintering Shards
I agree, Cal, with your characterization of Splintering and agree Splintered Investiture does remain assigned:
On 9/19/2019 at 6:36 PM, Calderis said:As a consequence, I think that that's what Splintering is. Stripping away the Connection. While the Investiture remains assigned, it isn't internally Connected making it unable to be accessed simultaneously and picked up by a new Vessel.
But I think we’re talking about different Connections. I read you, Cal, to refer to the Shard’s internal mind-spirit Connection. Splintering occurs because the Vessel’s mind no longer directs the Investiture. I refer to the Shard’s “spin” Connection, the thing that causes Investiture assignment. “Spin” permanently Connects all the Shard’s thermodynamic states – Investiture, matter, and energy – assuming Brandon retracts that April WoB.
Is Activation Energy Necessary for Magic Systems?
Cal also questions the need for energy to “activate” each magic system. In our universe, thermodynamics requires some activation energy to begin a chemical or physical reaction. Otherwise, there’s nothing to shake the system’s components out of their pre-existing equilibrium. Brandon says the cosmere’s physics is the same as ours except that Investiture is a third thermodynamic factor. The OP shows known magic systems all have an activation energy except for the two nominally “end-neutral” systems, Feruchemy and Breath transfers.
Cal, you say you believe magic user Intent to perform magic is enough for all systems, and activation energy is unnecessary. I agree as to the two end-neutral systems, although both systems in all other respects comply with cosmere thermodynamics. My questions to you are (1) why would cosmere thermodynamics not comply with our universe’s rules on activation energy given Brandon’s general rule; and (2) why else does every magic system other than the end-neutral ones begin with the magic user instilling energy?
Connections and Time
Brandon says, “All times and all places are one” in the Spiritual Realm. One interpretation: All Connections that could ever exist already exist and have always existed, including time and place. Potential Connections exist even when nothing comes of them. Whether those Connections strengthen into actuality depends on the probability that certain events will occur.
I think this is what Brandon means when he compares cosmere Connections with our universe’s “quantum connections.” There’s a bit of Schrödinger’s Cat in the idea all possible Connections always exist but await unknown events to actualize.
Several times Syl and the Stormfather say they’ve “always known” something that Kaladin or Dalinar have just figured out. The spren don’t share the information until after their bonded human discovers it. Maybe these situations show the information-carrying Connection was always there. Some event actualized the Connection and brought the information to man and spren’s attention. Since spren are eternal Investiture, they’ve “always known” the information – have always held the Connection that carries it – and in retrospect can recall knowing the information even before the Connection-actualizing event occurs.
All Connections always present makes foresight more manageable. Shards can see all potential Connections. Their task is to figure out which Connections are more likely to actualize and at what strength. In a post about the subjectivity of Connections, I describe three possible foresight methods: a “brute force” review of all possible Connections; Shard-specific algorithms to streamline Connection data analysis (my vote); and a “time ribbons” method Leras mentions in M:SH (probably metaphorically).
Who knows what Brandon really means about time’s Spiritual Realm irrelevance. I throw out the “quantum connection” idea to prompt discussion.
More on “Pathways to Power”
To restate the OP, I believe a “pathway to power” delivers Shard Investiture from the Spiritual Realm. If Investiture energizes magic systems, pathways carry that energy. Most pathways are neither fuel nor Investiture (e.g., metal, water, and “color”); yet magic consumes the pathway and ends when the pathway ends. Some observations:
Preservation’s and Ruin’s primal forces seem to share a metal pathway. It makes sense Preservation’s pathway should be metal, if only because Marasi says so. (BoM, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359.) Preservation’s primal force is stasis, and metal’s static molecular structure serves well as a pathway for that primal force. But Ruin shares the metal pathway. Nightblood and Hemalurgy’s cosmere-wide availability both suggest metal may be Ruin’s pathway everywhere and not just on Scadrial. The OP speculates Ruin’s entropy primal force would destroy a less static, less durable pathway than metal. [Specific metals Focus Preservation and Ruin’s power, but all Allomantic/Feruchemical/Hemalurgic metals IMO serve as Preservation and Ruin pathways.]
Autonomy’s and Endowment’s primal forces both seem to use solar radiation to distribute ambient Investiture the way highstorms distribute Stormlight. Autonomy’s Investiture seems transported via the sun’s heat energy and falls mostly in oceans. The Investiture IMO then circulates through the planet’s water cycle. Based on Khriss’ description of Sand Mastery, I think water is Autonomy’s pathway to power. Endowment’s Investiture seems transported via the sun’s light energy. Invested photons (IMO) radiate onto Nalthis’ objects. Photons are quanta of electromagnetic radiation, and I think EMR is Endowment’s pathway to power.
I find it interesting Shards with different primal forces and pathways can distribute ambient Investiture from the same source, the sun. (Many posters believe the Autonomy and Endowment Vessels were dragons.) WoBs suggest these distribution patterns pre-date the Shattering. All this reminds me how much there is yet to learn about the cosmere and its magic systems. But I do believe “pathways to power” are an important cosmere magical component.
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With no new cosmere books on the horizon, I thought the time ripe for my post-OB comprehensive magic theory. I update my iteration from two years ago to reflect OB, intervening WoBs, and the Forum’s endemic (but helpful) hypercriticism. As always, these are MY INTERPRETATIONS, not canon or even consensus.
My goal is to show how cosmere magic fits together. No theory is perfect and there will be jagged edges here and there. Theory has text and WoB support. Speculation expands on and logically flows from theory but lacks specific support. The Appendix applies my conclusions to known magic systems. Please read the main body first.
Topics:
Cosmere Origin [Speculation]
Spiritual Aspects and Connections [Theory]
Perception’s Cosmere Role [Theory]
Cosmere Thermodynamics [Theory]
The Shattering [Theory and Speculation]
Shard Magical Uniqueness [Theory]
Assigned Investiture [Theory]
Types of Magic Systems [Theory]
Magic System Rules [Theory]
The Role of Planets in Magic Systems [Theory]
The Role of Shards in Magic Systems [Theory]
“Pathways to Power” [Theory and Speculation]
Conclusion
Spoiler: Appendix – Applications and Predictions [Speculation]
Postscript – What If?Cosmere Origin [Speculation]
Raw Investiture pre-exists the cosmere. Raw Investiture spontaneously forms a mind – Adonalsium, an anagram for “a mind, a soul.” Adonalsium then creates the Physical Realm. Pre-Shattering, Adonalsium’s mind inheres in all Spiritual Realm Investiture. He is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent – his mind is coextensive with his Investiture, and his essence comprises the Physical Realm.
Spiritual Aspects and Connections [Theory]
Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections and raw Investiture. Connections resemble our universe’s “quantum connections” and are not themselves Investiture. Spiritual aspects thus differ only as to their Connections. Each new or lost Connection changes that Spiritual aspect. IMO, Connections alone carry the information that defines every cosmere person and object.
Perception’s Cosmere Role [Theory]
Adonalsium’s cosmere is an Investiture-energy matrix that manifests to mortals as the Physical Realm. Mortals collectively perceive the Physical Realm’s physical and emotional forces as Connections. They interpret the Physical Realm through these Connections. Brandon says here, here, and here that cosmere magic is a “human construct.” Different planetary cultures perceive different Connections. Rosharans, for example, perceive the Surges as fundamental cosmere forces. Discrete cultural perceptions partly explain why each planet has a unique subastral.
Cosmere Thermodynamics [Theory]
Brandon says the cosmere generally follows our universe’s thermodynamic laws, but he adds Investiture as a third element to make the energy flows work. Investiture “is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics.” Cosmere thermodynamics’ first law states the sum of cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture is constant and these three substances are mutually inter-convertible. The second law states the cosmere’s entropy never decreases over time. I believe the key to understanding magic systems is to follow each system’s energy flows.
Our universe’s thermodynamics requires physical and chemical reactions to begin with an “activation energy.” Most magic systems activate with the energy from a magic user’s metabolic or physical processes: Allomancers burn metal. Hemalurgists hammer spikes. Selish magic users move (dance, turn essence stamps, stir potions, draw Aons, bend bones). Sand Masters dehydrate (burn water). Surgebinders inhale Stormlight.
Feruchemy and Breath transfers (with or without Awakening) don’t seem to require an activation energy. These “end neutral” magics seem to rely on the bare Intent to perform an act of entropy or stasis (Feruchemy) or to transfer Investiture quanta (Breath transfers). That Intent summons a “facilitating power” from the Spiritual Realm to energize the magic and otherwise comply with thermodynamics.
The Shattering [Theory and Speculation]
Khriss hints the Vessels first kill Adonalsium and then Shatter his power (M:SH, Part Three - 2, Kindle Locs. 931-940.). Brandon confirms this. I believe the Vessels kill Adonalsium’s mind, his capacity to direct magic. The Vessels then Shatter the now undirected power into sixteen equal Shards. This WoB suggests the method:
QuoteKarthikeyan Eswaran
For a person to ascend as a [Vessel], is it enough to have a Connection with the Shard, or does their general intent/mindset have to align with the Intent of the Shard (like Rayse and Odium have both shown similar mindsets)? If the intent needs to be similar, how did Ati, who was described as a kind person, pick up a Shard like Ruin? And if the intent doesn't need to be similar, how did the people at the Shattering manage to ascend, as the Shards had just been created? Did they have to go through some process to create a Connection? Or did they all somehow already have a Connection with Adonalsium (and thus with all the Shards) which made it easier to Ascend?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, there did need to be some Connection created – there was a lot going on with this. But it is possible for intents to not align and someone to take a Shard. It's way easier if intents do align, but humans don't tend to align 100% to any specific intent.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018) (bold added).
I speculate the Vessels allocate Adonalsium’s power by forging some unique Connection between each Shard and its Vessel. The Vessel’s “general intent/mindset” makes forging that Connection “way easier,” but aligning general intent/mindset to the Shard is unnecessary. Like with kind and generous Ati, the Shard always prevails.
Brandon describes each Shard’s “influence and tweak” of Investiture as a “spin or magnetism.” I think this phrase refers to the Connection that distinguishes one Shard from another. A Shard’s “spin or magnetism” Connects the Shard to all its Realmic states. These Connections mark the Investiture source when Investiture, matter, and energy inter-convert. This maintains the 16-Shard balance.
An April 2019 WoB says magic users can change Stormlight into Breath – Honor’s Investiture into Endowment’s. Brandon cites one method: “Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.” I think this method strips the Investiture of its Shard’s unique “spin or magnetism.” That undoes the Shattering as to that Investiture. If so, any Shard can now Connect with it. Odium can change his Shard victims’ Investiture into his, rather than merely Splintering the power.
This is a big deal. Permanent Investiture changes like this would upset the Shards’ balance. Brandon should clarify this WoB, or we’ll all have to revise our settled wisdom.
Shard Magical Uniqueness [Theory]
DISCLAIMER: Posters often use the non-canonical word “intent” to describe Shard magical uniqueness, but that term doesn’t distinguish between the role of the Shard’s Investiture and the role of its Vessel. Brandon has yet to canonize any term to express Shard magical uniqueness.
Brandon says Shards are
Quoteprimal forces [or fundamental laws] attached to certain aspects of personality.... [A] cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural. [Source (March 2018).]
I read this important WoB to distinguish (i) the Shard’s unique magic from (ii) the Vessel’s mind that directs the Shard and cultural perceptions of the Shard. I theorize a Shard’s unchanging “primal force/fundamental law/something...natural” refers to the Connection that marks that Shard’s Investiture, its “spin or magnetism.”
The quoted WoB identifies Ruin as the “charged term” for entropy and Preservation as the “charged term” for stasis. This other important WoB shows Honor grants his magic “through the filter of” bonds. Shard magical uniqueness IMO stems from this filter, this primal force/fundamental law Connection, not Vessel personality or cultural influence.
Assigned Investiture [Theory]
The Shattering caused all Investiture to be “assigned” to the Shard with the same “magnetism” as that Investiture:
QuoteI always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard – because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. [Source (2018).]
“Assigned” Investiture to me supports the Shard Connection theory. Without these magnetisms, these unique Connections, Shards couldn’t track their own or other Shards’ Investiture after it converts into matter or energy. Autonomy couldn’t find “a gathering of [assigned] Investiture” to create Avatars out of. IMO, Physical Realm matter, energy, and Investiture always Connects to the primal force/fundamental law that creates it regardless of its creator, Adonalsium or a Shard.
Types of Magic Systems [Theory]
There are two types of magic systems: “interaction with nature” systems, where mortals interact with the magic but can’t direct the magical effect; and Shard-created “people with magic” systems, where mortals can direct the magical effect. “People with magic” systems appear only on Major Shardworlds, where Shards reside. They result from magic users’ “greater strength of access to the magic, and control over it” on such planets. I believe Roshar’s pre-Shattering ecology and First of the Sun’s Aviar are “interaction with magic” systems. Allomancy, Awakening, and Surgebinding are “people with magic” systems. (Some posters name such systems an “Invested Art,” following Khriss.)
Magic System Rules [Theory]
With some exceptions, I believe all known “people with magic” systems follow the same general rules:
1. Magic users Intend some magical effect.
2. Magic users in most systems infuse their own energy into the magical process to activate it. Feruchemy and Breath transfers – two “end neutral” systems – activate solely on Intent.
3. The magic system uses that energy (or Intent) to summon Shard power from the Spiritual Realm (or Cognitive Realm for the Dor). Spren-based magic converts Physical Realm Investiture into power.
4. The magic user Focuses that power as it Invests them or an object.
5. The magic user directs the Focused power for the Intended magical effect.
Khriss describes the magic system rules of Intent and Perception. (AU, “The Selish System,” Kindle pp. 18.) A magic user must Intend to make magic. Magic is a deliberate act. Perception refers to a culture’s influence on magic. On Sel, “language – or similar functions – directly shapes the magic as it is pulled from the Cognitive Realm and put to use.”
The Role of Planets in Magic Systems [Theory]
Brandon says a planet’s pre-Shattering magic (its “inherent Investiture”); the planet’s culture; and the local population’s sDNA all influence a planet’s magic systems. Most posters including me believe Focuses derive from the system’s planet. A Focus IMO substitutes for the mortal inability to think a magical effect into being (like Shards can). Besides “shaping the magic,” a Focus limits Investiture flow and prevents magic user vaporization. I think all three planetary influences contribute to that planet’s Focus.
The Role of Shards in Magic Systems [Theory]
I think these are Brandon’s most important statements about the Shards’ magical role:
“The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,”
“The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”
I read these WoBs to say Shards have two roles in magic systems: They determine how magic users (1) access Investiture, and (2) perform their magical abilities. IMO, magic systems grant access and performance through their Shard’s unique Connection, its primal force/fundamental law:
Ruin magic users Intend an act of entropy. A Feruchemist converts their attributes into Investiture. A Hemalurgist spikes through Spiritual aspects. Nightblood destroys evil.
Preservation magic users Intend an act of stasis. A Feruchemist returns to their prior state (the status quo) when they re-convert Investiture into attributes. An Allomancer pulls power down metal’s static molecular structure.
Honor magic users Intend to enter a bond. A Surgebinder chooses to enter the Nahel bond. Windrunners “lash” (re-bond gravity) to fly.
Brandon confirms those three Shards’ primal forces/fundamental laws. I speculate in the Appendix what others might be. Again, I believe a primal force/fundamental law is the “spin or magnetism” that Connects the Shard’s Investiture to its other Realmic states, including to its Vessel and magic users.
“Pathways to Power” [Theory and Speculation]
Investiture energizes magic. I believe magic systems move that energy down inter-Realmic power lines. Marasi sees Preservation’s metal “pathway to power” when she draws Investiture from the Bands of Mourning:
QuoteThere were no people or objects, just energy coalesced. The metals shone brilliantly, as if they were holes into someplace different. Concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.
(BoM Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359.)
Metal is Preservation’s pathway to power (and Scadrial’s Focus). It is not Preservation’s Investiture. From this example, I speculate other magic systems have their own pathways to power. Pathways generally have these characteristics: They aren’t made from Investiture. In several systems, the magic consumes the pathway. In these systems, the magic ends when the consumed pathway ends. Like metal’s static molecular structure ties to Preservation’s stasis, each Shard’s pathway also seems tied to its “spin or magnetism,” its primal force. I speculate about each Shard’s pathway in the Appendix.
I believe pathways differ from Connections. Connections convey information. Pathways seem to convey Investiture. I think “pathways to power” overlap with Brandon’s “natural pathways.” The latter seem to refer to pre-programmed Investiture delivery methods:
QuoteQuestioner
From what I understand, Ruin and Preservation create the world together, and they created humanity as copies of the original humankind. So how did they give Allomancy to Scadrial?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. So the magic systems are kind of built into the setting and the world. And there are certain natural pathways that exist, in the same way there are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. They weren't 100% created by the Shards, but they also do have the Shards' influence on them.
Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) (bold added).
This WoB confirms magic generally follows natural pathways “built around Adonalsium” that the Shards now influence. Even pre-Shattering Physical Realm manifestations of Spiritual Realm Investiture break Realmic barriers somehow. To me, it makes Realmic sense magic systems might funnel Investiture through a natural pathway other than perpendicularities.
Conclusion
Like you, I seek cosmere truth. How does this stuff work? Because we don’t yet know cosmere truth, I ask you judge my theory by a three-part “validity” test: (1) Is the theory self-consistent, and does it fit together on its own terms? Would Pattern approve (hmmm)? (2) Is the theory consistent with text and WoBs? (3) Does the theory predict how newly-unveiled magic will work?
Precedent suggests readers will focus on the Appendix, where I speculate about individual Shards and their magic systems. If past is prologue, I’ve made many mistakes for you to correct. But I prefer you focus on the main theory, the “big stuff.” The little stuff like magic systems will fall into place if we can get the big stuff right.
If nothing else, consider this post red meat during these lean times between books. All the best. C.
Appendix – Applications and Predictions [Speculation]
The Spoiler applies the magic theory to each Shard with a known “people with magic” system. EVERYTHING in the Spoiler is raw to informed SPECULATION. (Probably true of the whole post, really...) Each time I update a theory, you help me plug more holes – (cough) Awakening – but I feel this iterative process gets us closer to cosmere truth. Here we go!
SpoilerThe three confirmed primal forces/fundamental laws are entropy (Ruin), stasis (Preservation), and bonds (Honor). Below are my always CONTROVERSIAL GUESSES as to the others. These are MY INTERPRETATIONS only, no matter how definitively I express them.
ROSHAR
Planetary Focus – I believe Roshar’s Focus are Shard Splinters. Spren shape the natural ecology and fabrial and Radiant magic. Honorblades shape their wielder’s magic. Odium Splinters shape each Fused and Unmade’s magic.
Cultivation
Shard Uniqueness – Transformation (thermodynamics’ first law, as Ruin is its second)
I believe Cultivation’s primal force/fundamental law is the inter-convertibility of matter, energy, and Investiture.
Pathway to Power – Lifeforms
Cultivation tells Dalinar, “I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED.” (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) Because the Shard’s “natural pathway” is lifeforms, transformation expresses itself as evolution. Brandon says Cultivation would be a mono-green M:tG deck.
Magic Systems – Unknown System, Radiant Surgebinding, fabrials, Regal forms of power
Brandon hints the unknown system is strictly Cultivation’s. Radiant Surgebinding, fabrials, and Regal forms of power IMO are mixed Shard systems in which Cultivation participates.
Brandon says Lift’s ability to transform food into Stormlight (matter into Investiture) anticipates the unknown system. I predict that system will access Investiture through matter-energy-Investiture conversion using a lifeform pathway. The Old Magic’s boon and curse exemplify an “interaction with nature” system with a similar thermodynamic conversion: Pruning Dalinar’s memories redirects his energy and focus from self-pity to new growth and redemption.
Cultivation’s words to Dalinar mark spren as subjects of her domain. Modern fabrials rely on Roshar’s “natural” sentient spren (and gemstones) for their magic. Khriss describes spren as “transformative Cognitive entities.” Spren transform from their Cognitive aspect into the Physical Realm energy or force they personify. Fabrial design manipulates these transformations. Capture the spren in the right gemstone; add Stormlight; and flamespren become fire, painspren become pain, and heatspren become heat. The transformation lasts as long as the Stormlight fuels it.
The Regal forms of power come from Odium and Cultivation. Odium’s Investiture seems to act like a virus that invades and changes the host spren. I think Odium’s Investiture grants the Regal forms of power while Cultivation’s Investiture plugs the spren into the Singer’s Spiritual aspect.
Honor
Shard Uniqueness – Voluntary bonds between people
Magic Systems – Honorblade Surgebinding, Radiant Surgebinding
Honorblade Surgebinding IMO is the only pure Honor magic system. Through an Honorblade bond, the Heralds and mortals wielding an Honorblade access Honor’s powers directly. Surgebinding proves Shards influence the means of accessing Investiture but not the magical abilities themselves: Radiant Surgebinding grants the same abilities as Honorblade Surgebinding but through two Shards and their spren.
Unlike Honorblade Surgebinding, Radiant Surgebinding is a mixed system. Honor’s Nahel bond grants Radiants access to Investiture. Spren give Radiants their magical abilities. Radiant spren are Connected to Honor, Cultivation, and rarely to Odium. They offer Radiants each of those Shards’ abilities including Odium’s foresight. Renarin IMO is not a Voidbinder. He is a Surgebinder who uses Stormlight, Honor’s Nahel bond, and a Radiant spren that also Connects to Odium to exercise Odium abilities.
Like Honorblade Surgebinders, Radiants inhale Stormlight to activate the system but use it more efficiently. Radiant spren transform the Stormlight into the powers the spren personifies. Unlike non-spren magic systems, Radiant Surgebinding converts Stormlight into power; it doesn’t summon power from the Spiritual Realm. Through the Nahel bond, Radiants direct that power for the Intended magical effect.
Pathway to Power – Unknown
I believe Honor has some Cognitive pathway to power. Two people freely choosing to bond is a Cognitive function. Radiant spren are personified ideas. Human minds bond ideas through the neural synapses in their brain. Maybe Spiritual Realm power Invests the Radiant through the pathway created by the Radiant’s synaptic Connection to their spren.
Odium
Shard Uniqueness – Breaking Connections (some cosmere repulsive force)
Magic System – Voidbinding
Contrary to consensus, I believe the Fused’s magic is Voidbinding, not a hack of Surgebinding. My theory defines magic systems by how magic users access their Investiture. Odium “takes your pain” by breaking your Connection to who or what causes the pain. (“I’m not to blame...It wasn’t my fault.”) Odium’s assault on Dalinar at Thaylen Field left Dalinar “Alone. So alone.” The Broken One’s Investiture fills the broken Connections. The loss of these Connections leaves you numb, adrift in an emotional void.
I believe the Fused also perform their magic by breaking a Connection – one of the Surges. They break their gravity Connection to fly, their abrasion Connection to glide, and their progression Connection to speed carapace growth. The Fused dis-Connect and re-Connect each Surge with the same skill and precision as Kaladin adjusts his lashings.
Voidbinding’s mechanics seem typical: The Fused Intend to break a Surge. Because of the constant Voidlight flow, Voidbinding doesn’t seem to need an activation energy, though the Fused may be doing something unseen to spark the magic. The Fused consume the Voidlight as fuel to summon Odium’s Spiritual Realm power. (Without spren, I do not believe Voidbinding uses Cultivation’s transformation mechanic to access power.) That power Invests the Fused, who direct it for the Surge-breaking magical effect they Intend.
Pathway to Power – Unknown
I speculate Odium like Honor uses some Cognitive pathway to power. The Unmade and voidspren show Odium’s Investiture invades the mind. Metaphorically, it does seem “Odium” – hate, hatred, etc. – should have a Cognitive pathway to spread his influence. Also, Brandon says the Odium Shard is best at Vessel-killing. I believe Odium breaks the Connection between a Vessel’s mind and its Shard. Without life-supporting Investiture, the Vessel’s mind dies, killing the Vessel (eventually). A Shard whose primal force breaks Connections and whose Investiture travels a Cognitive pathway should be good at Vessel-killing.
Autonomy
I speculate Autonomy is a fourth Shard Investing Roshar through “a gathering of [its assigned] Investiture.” WoB suggests Autonomy won’t have any SLA narrative impact. I discuss Autonomy in the Taldain section. Autonomy’s primal force/fundamental law IMO is fractals. Adonalsium built the Rosharan continent using fractal mathematics principles.
I think the Sibling may be a potential Avatar. Gemstones are fractals, and I believe the Sibling is the spren responsible for gemstones (and gemhearts). If the Sibling is an Autonomy spren, then fabrials are a mixed magic system because of gemstones’ role.
NALTHIS
Planetary Focus – Visualized commands
Endowment
Shard Uniqueness – Quantum Physics (the science of subatomic particles)
Magic System – Breath transfers (with or without Awakening)
Breaths are the cosmere’s only pre-packaged Investiture quanta. All Shards can probably quantize their Investiture (just as other Shards than Honor and Cultivation can bond or convert matter into Investiture). But Endowment alone grants access to her Investiture through quanta. Her magic system transfers Breaths to perform her magic.
A Breath holder can transfer Breath with or without Awakening it. I believe non-Awakening Breath transfers resemble Feruchemy. As Investiture quanta, no part of the Breath is lost in the transfer. The visualized command “My Breath is yours” expresses the Intent to transfer Investiture quanta. That Intent suffices to summon the Spiritual Realm “facilitating power” that fuels the transfer.
Awakening programs the Breaths for post-transfer animation. The Awakener speaks and visualizes his instructions to the Breaths. The Breath-holding object Awakens to perform as instructed.
Brandon says any Investiture can fuel Awakening including Stormlight. On Nalthis we see Awakeners consume only color, which is not Investiture. Color is how the eye perceives reflected light, which is visible electromagnetic radiation (EMR). I have two guesses as to Nalthian Investiture sources for Awakening. I keep wavering between them:
(i) Awakening breaks down an object’s pigment molecules into subatomic particles (the realm of quantum physics). Maybe the Investiture comprising the Spiritual aspect of those molecules fuels Awakening. The problem: Pigment is itself a Connection, a way to interpret the Physical Realm. Connections are not made from Investiture.
(ii) And so I return to my first hypothesis: Nalthis’ pre-Shattering “interaction with nature” system somehow Invests Nalthis’ photons directly like Roshar’s highstorms Invest that planet. Investiture held by the object’s absorbed photons fuels Awakening.
Pathway to Power – Electromagnetic Radiation
I think Endowment’s pathway is EMR. Like metal, EMR is not Investiture. Yet Awakening ends when a photon-drained object turns gray (or white for god-kings). Light-carrying photons are EMR quanta, which ties to Endowment’s unique quantum magic.
TALDAIN
Planetary Focus – Visualized commands
Taldain’s Focus IMO is the visualized command a Sand Master sends the microflora through their Cognitive bond. That command causes the microflora to shape the sand as the Sand Master visualizes.
Autonomy
Shard Uniqueness – Fractals (similar patterns replicating at progressively smaller scales)
As smaller scaled versions of Autonomy, Avatars are the best examples of Autonomy’s fractals. I speculate each of a Sand Master’s sand ribbons flows from a different Autonomy Splinter, a discrete “autonomous” fractal. FWIW, Brandon says fractals have always fascinated him.
Magic System – Sand Mastery
I think Sand Masters access Autonomy’s Investiture through these autonomous fractal Splinters. Sand Masters also perform their magic using fractals – sand. Here’s Khriss’ description of this magic system:
QuoteThe Investiture beats down from the sky, and is absorbed by a microflora that grows like a lichen on the surface of the sand.... Giving water to the tiny plant causes a chain reaction of sudden growth, energy, and Realmic transition. Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand.
(AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle pp. 369-370.)
I believe Taldain’s water is Invested. Autonomy’s Investiture falls on Dayside’s oceans and circulates through the planet’s water cycle. Taldain’s lifeforms drink or absorb this Invested water.
Mechanics: Sand Masters Intend to manipulate fractals, the sand. They dehydrate to activate the magic and, I believe, to consume the water’s Investiture. This Investiture summons Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm power. Khriss says this power enables the Sand Master to “control the sand” through a “brief Cognitive bond” between Sand Master and microflora. I believe the microflora detect and absorb Sand Master water as the Sand Master dehydrates. The “brief Cognitive bond” between Sand Master and microflora is made through the water contact.
Pathway to Power – Water
Autonomy’s power passes from the Spiritual Realm into the Sand Master and then to the microflora through the water-forged Cognitive bond. Like metal and EMR, water is not Investiture; yet the Sand Master consumes the water through dehydration. When the Master stops dehydrating, the magic stops. Water relates to Autonomy’s fractal primal force: As an erosion agent, water can carve fractals; and water can also form into fractals like ice crystals and snowflakes.
FWIW: Autonomy’s Patji Avatar, a fractal IMO, built the Patji archipelago. Adonalsium built the Rosharan pangaea through fractal mathematics principles (the Julia set). Roshar holds a “gathering” of Autonomy’s assigned Investiture. I link these “facts” to point out fractals built Patji and the Rosharan pangaea from the ocean floor – through water.
SCADRIAL
Brandon says Scadrial’s magic is not woven as tightly into the cosmere tapestry as later-revealed magic systems. It doesn’t quite fit the same rules and sometimes needs retconning (think savantism). Brandon’s original explanation for Preservation’s uniqueness: the Shard gives its magic as a “gift” to preserve the magic user’s own energies. It turns out almost every magic system also pumps external energy (Spiritual Realm Investiture) to the magic user. With that caveat, here’s how I see Scadrial’s magic.
Planetary Focus – Metal
Ruin
Shard Uniqueness – Entropy, the second law of thermodynamics
Magic Systems – Hemalurgy, Feruchemy
Hemalurgy is Ruin’s pure magic system. Feruchemy is a mixed system (with Preservation). Both systems increase the cosmere’s entropy (temporarily in the case of Feruchemy).
The Hemalurgist Intends to transfer sDNA. They swing their arm to strike the spike, which generates Hemalurgy’s activation energy. The energized Intent summons Ruin’s power from the Spiritual Realm to Invest the spike. The spike’s metal Focuses that power to transfer only the targeted sDNA.
The Feruchemist in Ruin-mode Intends to convert their attributes into Investiture, increasing entropy. That Intent alone, without any activation energy, causes Ruin’s power to Invest the metalmind with the power the metalmind Focuses. A Spiritual Realm “facilitating power” supplies the energy for the conversion. That “facilitating power” keeps Feruchemy end-neutral; without it, Feruchemy would cannibalize the Feruchemical gene.
Pathway to Power – Unknown
Best guess: Metal is Ruin’s pathway as well as Preservation’s. Were Ruin’s Investiture to travel a less stable pathway, the Shard’s entropy mechanic might destroy the pathway before the power reaches the magic user.
Preservation
Shard Uniqueness – Stasis
Magic Systems – Feruchemy, Allomancy
The Feruchemist in Preservation-mode Intends to convert Investiture back into their attributes, a return to the status quo. Intent plus the “facilitating power” causes Preservation to Invest the metalmind with the power the metalmind Focuses. Metalminds Focus both Ruin’s and Preservation’s power.
Allomancy, to me, is the cosmere’s most problematic magic system. I don’t see anything “static” about Allomancy other than metal’s static molecular structure. Brandon’s claim Allomancy is a “gift” is specious – almost all magic systems likewise gift Spiritual Realm power to their magic user. Brandon acknowledges his early magic systems are less consistent with his later-developed rules.
Pathway to Power – Metal
SEL
Planetary Focus – Topographically-programmed forms
Brandon says programming-type language is Sel’s Focus. Programmed forms IMO represent each magic system’s local topography. Aons, for example, mark the placement of Arelon’s mountains, coasts, and forests. Shai sees Mai-pan in the power surge that limns her activated essence stamp.
Khriss says the “rule of perception” is magnified on Sel. Sel’s emphasis on language and form as a Focus stems from the Dor’s Cognitive Realm location.
Shards
Sel had only one magic system before Odium mashed Dominion and Devotion’s power into the Cognitive Realm. I believe that original system and its local variants are mixed Shard systems and look at Dominion and Devotion together.
Shard Uniqueness
I speculate Dominion’s primal force is potential energy. Dominion’s Investiture seems to control magical access on Sel, setting the conditions under which potential energy becomes kinetic energy. Magic users gain more precise magical ability the more complex their topographic form. It’s as if Dominion challenges magic users to prove their knowledge of (and dominion over) their homeland before bestowing his most powerful magic on them.
Devotion IMO grants access to Investiture through kinetic energy. Once motion activates the magic system, Devotion’s Investiture flows freely through Sel’s Dominion-Invested Focus. I think “controlling” Dominion restricts the flow of Investiture, while “loving” Devotion seeks to freely bestow it. Without their Vessels’ direction, these antithetical Investitures clash in the Cognitive Realm.
Magic Systems
I speculate Sel’s magic users consume Investiture that leaches from the ground into the food chain. Sel’s location-based magics and topographical forms show the ground is Invested. Khriss confirms Sel’s “landscape” is becoming even more Invested. (Mother Sel?) Raoden had to draw Aon Rao on the ground, not in the air, to restore Elantris.
Shai’s essence stamp uses organic inks. Bloodsealers use their target’s blood. Dakhor monk bones hold Investiture deposited from their food. Forton’s potions use organic ingredients. The “mostly Spiritual” Elantrians can draw Aons with the Dor because ground-drawn Aon Rao amplifies the Dor in Elantris.
Mechanics: Sel’s magic users Intend to turn potential energy into kinetic energy. Each known Selish system begins with motion – drawing an Aon, turning an essence stamp, stirring a potion, dancing, or bending bones. Motion activates the user’s Investiture to summon the Dor from the Cognitive Realm. The Dor Invests the magic user or an object (essence stamps or potions) through a topographical Focus. The magic user directs the Focused power for the Intended magical effect.
Pathway to Power – Ground
Postscript – What If?
I urge you all to read Brandon’s short story Perfect State. Few posters comment about it. In a Matrix-like world, each live human participates 24/7 in their own virtual reality simulation.
Brandon’s penchant for foreshadowing makes me wonder: What if 16 virtual characters managed to kill the one live person (Adonalsium) in their simulation? Is the cosmere now a self-executing simulation? When Brandon releases Dragonsteel, will its epilogue show Hoid nattering about a computer program run amok and the failings of postmodern art?
14 -
Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested non-Shards in the cosmere. He grows more Invested each time he “destroys evil.” My best guess is this happens because Nightblood implements the cosmere’s Second Law of Thermodynamics. He is an entropy-creation machine that seeks thermodynamic equilibrium.
Brandon says Nightblood holds Ruin’s Investiture. I think Nightblood uses Ruin to execute his “destroy evil” command. Ruin’s “primal force” is entropy. I don’t know what role if any Ruin had at Nightblood’s creation or why Nightblood would be so difficult to replicate. We do know Nightblood destroys in all three Realms, the ultimate act of entropy.
I speculate Nightblood’s consumed Investiture increases his internal entropy. This Investiture seems to come from his victims’ Spiritual aspects. Spiritual aspects hold a person’s Connections, including (says Kelsier in M:SH Part Three-3) a Connection to “God,” that person’s native Shard. The consumed Investiture should thus be raw, stripped of all its Connections. In the cosmere, nothing is more disordered or has higher entropy than “dangerous” raw Investiture. That may be why Nightblood leaks smoke – the gaseous state is the most disordered.
I think Nightblood ramps up his destruction and stops when he does to achieve thermodynamic equilibrium: “In thermodynamic equilibrium there are no net...flows of matter or of energy [or Investiture] between systems.”
Nightblood sheathed is a closed system. When his wielder draws him, Nightblood is exposed to the outside environment, a different system. That environment is more ordered and has lower entropy. Nightblood acts to increase his environment’s entropy to bring his internal entropy into balance with it. His command to destroy evil accomplishes that.
As Nightblood consumes his victims’ raw Investiture, his internal entropy increases. I think this causes him to accelerate his destruction. Eventually Nightblood either reaches thermodynamic equilibrium or his wielder sheathes him. When he stops killing, he retains the unused raw Investiture: “In all processes that occur...the total entropy of the system and its surroundings increases and the process is irreversible in the thermodynamic sense.” I believe this is why Nightblood grows in power over time.
Not having studied science in fifty years, I’m probably wrong on all this. But I can’t think of another reason, and Brandon does love his thermodynamics. What do you cosmere scientists think?
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@Karger, I’m no more comfortable with the Stormfather’s explanation than the Eila Stele’s. The Stormfather IMO is an untrustworthy witness. He acknowledges this himself:
QuoteMy memory of all this is … strange. First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm. Then I was like a child. Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god.
But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you.
(OB, Chapter 113, Kindle p. 1051.)
I have questions the Stormfather’s memory doesn’t answer:
- Why would all non-Skybreaker “Radiants abandon their vows for that reason”? Wouldn’t a few think themselves incapable of such destruction? Loving/Healing Edgedancers don’t seem like destroyers. But even Edgedancers might see the honor in abandoning their vows after Melishi “killed” the Sibling and ended Singer transformations.
- Why would the Skybreakers NOT break their vows if fear of Roshar’s destruction is the reason?
The Stormfather explains Honor’s role in the Recreance to Dalinar:
QuoteIn the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now?
But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.
(OB, Chapter 113, Kindle p. 1052.)
Honor convinced Radiants they needed to fight to protect humans despite the human land grab. But not one Radiant convinced themselves or others this was still the case? And if a dying Honor “raved,” would every Radiant have trusted his word? Might some think Roshar needed the Radiants even more with Honor dying?
The Stormfather’s explanations just don’t add up for me. What he says may be true, but not as justification for the Recreance and a mass oath breaking that immediately follows the Sibling’s slumber. I think something more happened to cause the Recreants to kill their spren, especially given the timing.
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@CrazyRioter and @RShara neatly destroyed my “Why the Sibling Slumbers” theory, but I upvoted their posts for setting me on the proper course-correction. WARNING: THIS “THEORY” CONTAINS INFORMED SPECULATION AND GUESSES.
Summary
Note the homophone in the OP’s title. The idea the name “Recreance” began as an epithet for the faithless, cowardly Knights Radiant - “the Recreants” - goes back at least to this 2012 post and others have periodically raised it. I buy this idea.
I think the Radiants believed they acted in the only way they could. Melishi’s plan enslaved the Singers and stopped their transformations. When the Radiants learned this, nine of the orders concluded honor demands “a spren for a spren.” If Singers couldn’t bond spren and transform, Radiants wouldn’t bond spren either. Their own spren may even have agreed. Only the Skybreakers demurred, thinking the result “just.”
Here’s the sequence of events that I think may have brought the Radiants down:
- False Desolation Begins – BAM Connects Voidlight to Singers by forging a Connection to the Sibling.
- Radiants Abandon Urithiru – Voidlight flowing through them causes the Sibling to “withdraw.”
- Strike Team Executes Melishi’s Plan – Radiants “kill” Sibling to cut BAM’s Connection to Singers.
- Recreance – Radiants discover what Melishi did and break their oaths. Only Skybreakers think this “just.”
Gem Archives
I think these are the most relevant gem archives:
Quote"A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat."
(OB, Chapter 78 Epigraph.)
"Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi."
(OB, Chapter 79 Epigraph.)
"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."
(OB, Chapter 80 Epigraph.)
"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects."
(OB, Chapter 81 Epigraph.)
Sibling Personifies Gemheart Growth Process
I think Roshar’s three great spren personify essential features of the Singer transformational life cycle: spren, gemhearts and the highstorm. IMO, these are the Eila Stele’s “spren, stone, and wind.” Gemheart Investiture leaks into the Physical Realm like atium. I think the Sibling personifies this process. Like the Stormfather distributes Stormlight, maybe the Sibling distributes gemheart Investiture. This Investiture grows gemhearts.
The Sibling’s Withdrawal
With no Everstorm, Voidlight during the False Desolation must have infused Singer gemhearts directly. BAM “Connected with the parsh people,” not just those with forms of power.
To grow gemhearts, the Sibling must Connect to them. I speculate BAM used the Sibling’s Connections as her conduit for Voidlight infusion. I think this is when the Sibling began to withdraw. The Sibling metaphorically gagged on Voidlight.
The Sibling’s Slumber
Voidlight may have caused the Sibling’s withdrawal before Melishi, but the Stormfather blames humans for the Sibling’s slumber. A Radiant strike team executed Melishi’s plan. Whatever happened stopped Singer transformations. Parshmen no longer bonded spren.
I speculate the Radiant strike team cut BAM’s Connection to Singer gemhearts by somehow cutting the Sibling’s Connection to Singer gemhearts. The sudden break in Connection shocked the Sibling into coma – “slumber.” (FWIW, Syl also uses the term "asleep" to describe her condition after her first Radiant died.) Gemheart Investiture still flows into gemhearts but it doesn’t seem to aid Singer transformation.
The Recreants
Maybe Singer enslavement is the true “wicked thing of eminence” that turns Radiants into Recreants. The Skybreakers felt the Sibling’s consciousness loss “just” payment to end the False Desolation. That order kept its oaths. Maybe the other nine orders felt Singer enslavement warranted a greater penalty. If Singers could not bond spren, neither would Radiants. These nine orders gave up their bond mates – perhaps in agreement with them – because they felt it was the honorable thing to do.
I’ve never been comfortable with the Eila Stele’s Recreance explanation. It was translated by Taravangian’s ardents in Kharbranth and Jah Keved and served his political purposes. Its explanation to me doesn’t justify everyone but the Skybreakers breaking their oaths. This explanation does.
The Knights Radiant fell in universal disgrace, forever tarnished as oath breakers. But I believe these Recreants did what they thought honor required of them.
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Summary
I theorize the Sibling personifies some Singer idea related to the Singer transformational life cycle. Melishi’s enslavement of Singers deprived them of their ability to think and transform. Singers stopped having the idea they personified as the Sibling. This was about 2,000 years ago at the end of the False Desolation. IMO, humans did not personify the Sibling’s idea like they personified the ideas perceived as the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. With no culture personifying the Sibling, their decline began and they slipped into slumber.
Analysis
One of OB’s major themes is cultural imperialism. Former Ashynites invaded Roshar and sought to eradicate Singers and their culture. Even Everstorm-healed Singers retain their human masters’ culture. I think Brandon uses the metaphor of the Sibling’s slumber to represent human cultural oppression of the Singers.
Spren personify perceived ideas. I think Roshar’s three great spren personify essential features of the native transformational life cycle: spren, gemhearts and the highstorm. IMO, these are the Eila Stele’s “spren, stone, and wind.” Maybe the Sibling personifies something other than gemhearts, but the Sibling must personify some idea.
Singer culture, not human culture, first personified the great spren. Eshonai says the Rider of Storms was the listener’s friend before he became the human’s Stormfather. (WoR, Interlude I-5, Kindle pp. 395-396.) Maybe the Rider became the Stormfather when it merged with Tanavast’s Cognitive shadow. If the Old Magic precedes spren bonding, then the Nightwatcher also likely precedes the human invasion.
I theorize humans didn’t stamp their culture on the Sibling like they did with the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. That makes sense if the Sibling personifies gemhearts. Humans don’t have them. Whatever the Sibling personifies seems to arise solely from Singer culture.
And Melishi stole that culture from them: “’I don’t have traditions,’ Sah said [to Kal]. ‘Or society...’” (OB, Chapter 20, Kindle, p. 217.) Stripped of their ability to think and transform, Singers stopped personifying any ideas – and certainly those related to transformation. I believe Melishi’s actions began the Sibling’s “withdrawal” and decline:
Quote“Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent – but I find counter to that theory."
OB, Chapter 68 Epigraph.
"Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue."
OB, Chapter 70 Epigraph.
Just as Tinkerbell almost died when people stopped believing in fairies, I think the Sibling began its decline when Singers stopped personifying them. With Brandon hinting we’ll see the Sibling soon, I suspect the healed Singers are about to awaken the Sibling.
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I assume everyone here and on @TheFoxQR's thread knows “intent” is a non-canonical term. Its meaning seems to depend on who uses it. It also conflicts with the term “Intent (capital “I”), which is a canonical term that refers to the deliberate use of magic.
Jofwu advocates for the terms “nature” and “expression” to describe Shard behavior. “Nature” refers to the Vessel-independent behaviors, and “expression” refers to Vessel-dependent behaviors. I’m okay with that classification, but I prefer Brandon’s words: “primal force/fundamental law” and “personality.” If “intent” has magical meaning, I believe it’s found in the Shard’s primal force, not the Vessel’s personality. “Primal force” IMO determines how a magic user accesses a Shard’s Investiture. The Vessel’s personality determines how it uses the Investiture it accesses.
I’m sure everyone is sick of hearing from me about this stuff, and I don’t think I’ve persuaded a single one of you – yet. (Disappointing, but life moves on.) Here I just want to publicize the fact that “intent” has no commonly held meaning. Other terms may better describe what Shard “intent” theorists mean.
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On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:
I disagree with much of what follows. Yes, Breaths are quantized, but almost everything that follows seems like you are trying to fit various aspects of Awakening into your theory. I do agree that the Heightenings resemble the stable electron energy levels. I take a very specific issue with the assertion that Breaths are the only form of Investiture that's quantized. Yes, the quanta seem larger than other forms we've seen, but that doesn't mean that it's a unique feature. In fact, I'd be surprised if other forms of Investiture weren't quantized.
You misread me. I too would be surprised if other Shard Investitures aren’t quantizable. But that’s not the test. The test is how magic users access a Shard’s Investiture. AFAIK, Endowment is the only one of the known Shards whose magic users access Investiture through quanta.
Bonds as you point out are not unique to Honor, but only Honor’s magic users access Investiture through bonds. Entropy is not unique to Ruin, but only Ruin’s magic users access Investiture through entropy. Stasis is not unique to Preservation, but only Preservation’s magic users access Investiture through stasis. I believe this is what Brandon means when he says (bold added), “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” and “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” This 2017 WoB shows what those WoBs mean in practice and eliminates any potential ambiguity from the earlier WoBs (IMO).
On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:Debatable. I think there is enough evidence to suggest that soul manifestation is just something you can do in the Cognitive Realm, and it's the introduction of the Surges that complicates things.
My only point about fabrials is they are machines that manipulate cosmere forces. On Roshar these machines manipulate Surges. On Scadrial they manipulate the Metallic Arts. Maybe they also manipulate some cosmere-wide “soul manifestation” force. Do we really disagree about fabrials’ nature?
On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:But I am not saying that fabrials are of Honor. The bond between a greatshell and the mandras that allow it to cheat the square-cube law is not something Honor, and neither is the one between a singer and its form-granting spren. I consider fabrials similar to those, only they rely on trickery.
Okay. I misread you.
On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:I've been rethinking my understanding of Connection, so I am going to put a pause on that. I am still not sold on the part about emotions (though there may be something to it, considering how the Rhythms are also associated with emotions, and they are definitely Spiritual), but the thing about the forces is potentially interesting. I'll need to reexamine other examples of Connection we've seen.
Here's my understanding of emotions. You are born. You emotionally attach to your mother, father, and other family members. Later you emotionally attach to lovers, friends, and acquaintances. You feel different emotions at different times toward each of them. IMO, each new feeling metaphorically etches a new Connection or changes an existing Connection on your Spiritual aspect’s raw Investiture.
* * * * *
It's always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you, Argent! Please look again at my main idea about the source of Shard behaviors. Even now, 18 months after the "primal force" WoB, there are two active Forum threads about Shard "intents" that don't even mention that important WoB. Regards!
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SUMMARY BUSINESS PLAN
(As Founder Brandon Sanderson Predicts Endowment Wants)
Presented to the Nalthis Breath Council by the Confused Consulting Group
Introduction
Thank you, Nalthis Breath Council (NBC), for this opportunity to present to you CCG’s ideas on how best to monetize Breaths. Nalthians are wise to have created this elected council to unify their interests in an organized Breath Market. The Breath market now is highly fragmented and dis-integrated. CCG believes all Nalthians will benefit from the enhanced value an organized market will bring them.
Our proposed Business Plan focuses on the cosmere-wide sale of Breaths. We think now is the time to implement this plan while most Breaths remain on Nalthis. Our advice is to make NBC the sole cosmere source for buying and selling Breaths – a real-world monopolistic cartel like “earth’s OPEC.” (“OPEC” is a group mentioned in the famous fantasy novel Twentieth Century Earth). This Business Plan shows how NBC can accomplish that goal.
Breath Benefits That Affect Value
Breaths may be the cosmere’s most valuable freely-transferable asset – same-sized quanta of Endowment’s Investiture. Each Breath enhances its holder’s lifeforce. Breaths come only from Nalthis but can be transferred to anyone anywhere. New supply is limited to Nalthian births. Nalthians must give their Breaths willingly. That lessens the risk of Breath theft. Breaths enable their holder to animate (Awaken) objects. 2,000 Breaths make their holder functionally immortal. 50,000 Breaths make their holder the equivalent of a Hallendren God King.
NBC Breath Exchange
We recommend you form the NBC Breath Exchange to let the market price Breaths rather than set an arbitrary price. The Exchange should be the sole cosmere market for Breaths. The NBC should require buyers and sellers to conduct all Breath transfers through the Exchange. The NBC may choose to exempt intra-family transfers, inheritances, and at-the-moment-of-death transfers. NBC should ban all private Breath sales that fall outside these exemptions.
The Breath Black Market
To ensure the Exchange works as intended, the NBC must take steps to eliminate smuggling and the black market in Breaths. Currently, the Tears of Edgli are the only way to enter Nalthis, but future technologies may change that. We recommend for now NBC monitor visitor traffic through the Tears. Each person must leave Nalthis with the same number of Breaths they held on entry or account for the discrepancy with NBC-certified papers. We recommend you station strong Awakeners at the Tears to count the Breaths and enforce anti-smuggling laws.
We urge the NBC to capture the bandit and murderer Vasher and his cohort the former Princess Vivenna of Idris. This notorious pair has eluded all previous efforts to find and restrain them. Together they hold many thousands of Breaths. They are criminals, but our concern is the potential market disruption if they choose to dump their Breaths onto the market.
NBC Revenue Streams
CCG foresees NBC generating revenue from commissions and other fees on each Breath transfer. CCG anticipates NBC’s efforts will have increased Breath value enough that buyers and sellers won’t mind paying these commissions and fees.
Spinoff Business Revenues
CCG recommends NBC expand its business model to augment its Breath marketing business and generate substantial additional revenues. Some examples:
Breath storage devices. CCG anticipates NBC will hold very large Breath reserves. It may be unfeasible for NBC officials to hold and carry these Breaths personally. These Breaths don’t belong to them in any event. If something unexpectedly happens to an NBC Breath holder, NBC could lose those Breaths. Developing Breath storage technology mitigates this risk. Such technology should allow for multiple NBC officials to retrieve these Breaths, perhaps through an Awakening password created and shared by the person who stores the Breaths.
Awakening Training. NBC should sell Awakening training services to Breath purchasers.
Breath Financing. As Breaths increase in value, individuals may lack sufficient capital to purchase them. We recommend NBC form the NBC Investment Bank to develop financing options for individual purchases. These options may include purchases on margin, installment contracts, and other payment plans.
Security Consulting. NBC has unique expertise it could package and market to Breath holders to ensure Breath safety and security.
Exclusive Transportation Rights. NBC should retain the right to transport Breaths to the buyer. While this is a sensible security feature, NBC’s transportation monopoly provides it an additional, independent revenue stream.
Other Issues
Private Equity Breath Purchases
We anticipate promoters will form business entities to consolidate Breath investor capital. These private equity firms could accumulate huge numbers of Breaths. These firms’ buy/sell strategies could adversely affect market efficiencies or otherwise compete with NBC’s financing business. To avoid this, we recommend NBC bar corporate ownership of Breaths or limit the number of Breaths such entities can own.
Ethical Issues
Some may question the propriety of establishing an organized market in human souls. They may see Breath transfers as immoral, taking part of a human life, or even soul slavery. CCG recommends NBC develop strategies to combat these perceptions including in-school education programs and massive advertising campaigns. The latter might highlight the enormous financial benefits that enhanced Breath values yield to Nalthian society.
Legal Issues
As the price for Breaths increases, Nalthians may choose to have more children and harvest their Breaths. This will lead to more drabs in society. From their Breath sale, each drab should have enough wealth not to burden society, but the NBC should monitor this situation closely. If necessary, the NBC should enact laws that prescribe the minimum age a person may sell their Breaths; ensure payment benefits the child and not the parent; and otherwise preclude child abuse through Breath deprivation.
Effect of Mass Murder, War, and Other Catastrophes
Some unscrupulous investors may try to inflate Breath values through the mass murder of Nalthians. The villains Vasher and Vivenna use this tactic with the Awakened sword Nightblood. Terrorist attacks can occur too swiftly to collect the Breaths of the murdered Nalthians. Nightblood reportedly destroys every part of those it kills including their Breaths. War, disease, and natural disasters can also materially reduce the Breath supply.
We recommend the NBC maintain a large Breath reserve at all times. If any of these events occur, the NBC can stabilize pricing by putting part of the reserved Breaths back on the market. (In the fantasy novel Twentieth Century Earth, a fictional country called the U.S.A. kept a strategic carbon-based fuel reserve to guard against OPEC disruption of the fuel supply.)
Conclusion
NBC contacted us when founder Brandon Sanderson concluded Endowment wishes to encourage the growth of the Nalthian Breath market. We believe this NBC Business Plan offers the best means of accomplishing that goal with the least friction to the existing Breath market. CCG designed the NBC Business Plan to maximize NBC revenues. We did so on the assumption NBC will re-distribute the bulk of its operating profits to native Nalthians. Getting buy-in from native Nalthians through this unity of interest is essential for the Plan’s ultimate success.
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Excellent analysis, @Blightsong! I like your idea Melishi had other plans for BAM than a gemstone prison. Here are some unsupported, fanciful thoughts to play with.
WHAT IF ...
1. Melishi is not a Bondsmith but “Ishi’Elin” – Ishar, the Binder of Gods himself. Ishar’s power during the False Desolation is greater than any Bondsmith because Honor still lives.
2. BAM is not an Unmade but a human who serves as the Sibling’s Bondsmith. Hessi describes BAM as “keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations.” Except for Sja-anat (maybe), none of the Unmade seem “keen” – certainly not keen enough to command armies. This raises doubt BAM is an ancient Unmade.
3. BAM switches sides to help the Singers and leads them in the False Desolation. BAM’s “keenness” makes me question whether BAM led Singers in earlier Desolations (at least 2,500 years before) despite what Hessi says. Maybe?
4. BAM literally sells her soul to Odium to become an Unmade with access to Voidlight. BAM uses her bond with the Sibling to Connect Voidlight to the Singers via their gemhearts. The Fused seem to get Voidlight through their possessed body’s gemheart. But could BAM keep her bond to the Sibling when she’s Unmade, even (hypothetically) with Cultivation’s help? A mixed soul?
5. Melishi/Ishar forcibly bonds the Sibling to himself to cut off Singer access to Voidlight. Ishar’s assault breaks BAM’s bond to the Sibling and pushes the Sibling into “slumber.” Singer gemhearts no longer work, and Singers lose their ability to bond spren and transform. If the Stormfather slumbered, would the highstorms still distribute Stormlight? Idk.
6. Voidlight slips into Ishar before BAM’s bond breaks. It makes him more crazy than torture alone does. Through the Oathpact’s Connection among Heralds, the other Heralds’ insanity intensifies. As Cognitive Shadows made wholly of Honor’s Investiture, Voidlight can’t be good for the Heralds. And poor BAM! What did Ishar do to her, and where is she now?
I end with a question about the False Desolation: Even with Voidlight, how do Singers gain forms of power? I presume living Singers did not suddenly drop dead and rise again as Fused. My guess is these were Regal forms of power granted by voidspren, not the power to bind Surges. Even with Voidlight, how do voidspren manifest on Roshar with the Oathpact still in effect?
On 6/9/2019 at 0:03 PM, Blightsong said:If you mean deactivation of the gemstones as a loss of the Singer's ability to use their gemstones then I dont agree. In that case they would still hold the value that past Rosharan humans went out of their way to obtain and it just doesn't make sense that all of Rosharan society would suddenly ignore that value to the point of all knowledge of the gemstones being lost. I just dont see another (in Brandons words) "good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart".
SLA shows how much humans can forget. Singer gemhearts are hidden. Listener Shattered Plains corpses ended eaten or in the chasms. Humans wouldn't even think to look for a gemheart in the listeners.
P.S. – Blightsong, when you quote WoBs, could you please include the linked source in the quote box? Thanks!
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Roshar is “a created planet” in a system “manufactured for a specific purpose.” I hypothesize Roshar’s purpose requires its three Great spren to grow the planet faster than is normally possible.
- The Stormfather (nee Rider of Storms) energizes growth with Stormlight.
- The Nightwatcher manifests growth by using Stormlight to transform spren from their Cognitive to their Physical Realm aspect.
- The Sibling IMO supports and enhances animal growth through gemhearts.
Singers need three things for their transformational life cycle: Stormlight, spren, and a gemheart. I hypothesize each Great spren personifies Singer pre-Shattering perception of these three necessities.
The Stormfather and Nightwatcher are the source of Stormlight and spren (IMO). Stormlight enables a spren to enter a gemheart and manifest in the Physical Realm as a Singer form. The spren Connects to the Singer’s Spiritual aspect through the Singer’s gemheart. This Singer mechanic predates the Shattering.
Almost all Roshar’s creatures have “some sort of gemheart.” Gemhearts are composed of Investiture leaked into the Physical Realm. Gemhearts allow spren to enhance Greatshells, skyeels, and Rhyshadium. Most Rosharan gemstones are made from gemhearts, but some gemstones occur naturally.
I propose the Sibling is the source of gemhearts. IMO, the gemstone-encrusted pillar in Urithiru’s basement IS the Sibling, or at least its Physical Realm manifestation. Renarin tells Navani’s scribes, “They’re not fabrials. They’re a fabrial.” (OB, Chapter 44, Kindle p. 455.) I think Renarin makes two points: (1) the Sibling is non-binary (“they” is singular), and (2) the pillar is the Great spren inside the Urithiru fabrial. Kalami’s team fails “to infuse the gemstone pillar.” (OB, Chapter 44, Kindle p. 454.) The pillar remains inert – “slumbering.”
I agree with those who believe the Sibling is the Spren of Stone. I think the Spren of Stone personifies the Rosharan continent after Adonalsium built it through fractal mathematics principles.
Sixth of the Dusk Spoiler:
SpoilerI speculate Autonomy’s Patji Avatar built the Pantheon the same way.
I think fractals are Autonomy’s “primal force.” Gemstones are fractals. Brandon says Autonomy’s assigned Investiture sits on Roshar. I believe the Spren of Stone is a potential Autonomy Avatar. Many disagree. If I’m right, it would explain why the Stormfather calls the Sibling “they” and Brandon hints the Sibling is non-binary: Autonomy too is non-binary.
It makes sense to me each Great spren personifies a different aspect of the Singer life cycle. Singers first personified the Great spren. It also makes sense that Great spren Investiture comes from three different Shards – and Odium is not one of them.
@RShara and others feel Brandon wouldn’t introduce a fourth Shard into SLA, mostly for narrative reasons. Two answers: First, Autonomy may not have an active or on-screen role. That Shard may only become Roshar-relevant later in the cosmere story and maybe never. Second, I feel Brandon does foreshadow Autonomy on Roshar. He specifically mentions Autonomy’s Rosharan Investiture in a WoB about the Patji Avatar. Brandon inserts this tidbit without any context, as if he were glad to drop an obscure breadcrumb.
Regardless of the Sibling’s composition, they do seem associated with gemhearts. The fabrial magic system needs both spren and gemstones, plus human design. Fabrials to me are an Autonomy-Cultivation combo system, fronted by the Sibling and Nightwatcher.
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“Upset the Balance of the Oathpact”
Argent’s last cited WoB probably disproves my OP’s theory, but I don’t buy the alternatives. If Ishar was concerned Radiants would siphon Honor’s power, he would have said so. But his concern was the balance of the Oathpact. A Shard’s Investiture is unimaginably vast. Radiant access to that Investiture wouldn’t even be noticeable. I doubt even Herald access is more than a Nano-drop of the whole. Argent recognizes this problem with his theory.
I don’t think diverting Honor’s Investiture to Radiants helps Odium free himself. Ishar’s concern is the Oathpact. Argent correctly points out the Oathpact doesn’t bind Odium. It binds the Fused and voidspren, blocking their Cognitive path into Roshar’s subastral.
IMO, freeing the Fused and voidspren from Braize is the first step in Odium’s plan. The Fused and Singers defeating humans is the second. I speculate Odium destroying Roshar is the third and final step. I think Odium’s prison ties to Roshar, not Braize; or at least Roshar is his path out of Braize. Otherwise, there’s no need for Desolations.
Odium’s Prison – “Unite Them”
HOW Odium’s imprisoned remains the mystery. I keep thinking there’s something in this epigraph:
Quote"They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond's placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbors."
(WoR, Chapter 8, bold added.)
Surges are Rosharans’ perception of the cosmere’s fundamental forces. Calling Surges the “bonds that drive Roshar” to me implies these forces hold Roshar together. Honor is the Shard that makes magic through bonds. Without Honor to regulate the balance of these forces, maybe “things fall apart [and] the center cannot hold”?
I feel (without much evidence) that uniting the Surges somehow creates a mutually-supporting superstructure that binds Odium to Roshar. It would take the full binding power of all Roshar’s fundamental forces to pin Odium there. I suspect binding the Surges together will fall on Dalinar, given this foreshadowing:
QuoteDalinar stood before the glowing map that Shallan and he—somehow combining their powers—could create.
(OB, Chapter 27, Kindle p. 274.)
There’s two bits of vague evidence for uniting the Surges. One is this WoK, Chapter 9 Epigraph:
Quote"Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red."
Collected: Jesachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments.
Not much, I know. The second bit is Honor’s Double Eye. All the lines meet in the middle where there’s no reason to meet. When you put all the ideals together, representing all the Roshar-perceived fundamental forces, MAYBE you can imprison Odium.
Ico’s Fear
For convenience, here’s the quote again:
QuoteBut your bond is dangerous, without Honor. There will not be enough checks upon your power—you risk disaster.”
Of all the explanations for Ico’s fear, I now side with @ScavellTane's: No Radiant spren is 100% Honor despite what each thinks. Glys highlights the risk Odium will subvert Radiant spren and “take over the magic system.” I also agree with @ZenBossanova that the risked disaster is another Ashyn.
Divine Attributes
I think there’s some misunderstanding about Divine Attributes. Posters comment here and elsewhere that Attributes are cultural, not mechanical, or are too closely tied to the Vorin perspective of Heralds. I feel these comments overlook Roshar’s unique magical environment. The Attributes ARE cultural. When asked about the lines crisscrossing the Double Eye, Brandon said,
QuoteThese connections will be explained eventually, but remember it's not the orders being connected, but instead their elemental representations. This diagram is very metaphysical, and some of the elements of it are cultural.
But on Roshar, culture MAKES the Divine Attributes mechanical. Of all known planets, only on Roshar does Cognitive Realm perception become Physical Realm reality. Syl confirms Radiant spren personify the Divine Attributes:
Quote“I’m less a force of nature and more one of the raw powers of creation transformed by collective human imagination into a personification of one of their ideals.”
(OB, Chapter 31, Kindle, p. 316.)
Radiant spren are an essential Surgebinding mechanic. Through the Nahel bond, a cultural ideal grants a right-minded mortal the power of a god.
@Calderis, you say my “Fifth Oath” ideas about the Divine Attributes are too “formulaic”:
On 6/4/2019 at 0:53 AM, Calderis said:For every Surgebinder to attract a spren for the same reason and reach for the exact same end goal would mean that you would be putting every member of an order on a path to experience the same journey.
I think you undervalue your own point that oath expression varies by spren and Radiant. Same-order Radiants won’t have the same journey regardless of common Attributes. To protect, Teft has to overcome his addiction. Kaladin has to overcome his “god complex” that he must (and can) protect everyone. Each Windrunner candidate has their own brokenness to contend with. Same for all Radiants.
That doesn’t mean their Attributes differ. Attributes are ideals that IMO mark the journey’s start and end points for each order, not the journey itself. All honorspren seek a Windrunner candidate for whom protecting others is paramount. If their candidate never learns leadership (as subjectively determined by the spren and candidate), that candidate will never achieve the Fifth Oath.
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There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread. I may as well add to it.
1. Every magic system does indeed use fuel. Thermodynamics requires it. Thermodynamics is the one rule Brandon insists on throughout the cosmere (as best he can).
2. Brandon says “almost every magic” uses Spiritual Realm Investiture for fuel. Even “end-neutral” Feruchemy relies on a “facilitating power” to pay the cost of attribute conversion. Otherwise, Feruchemy would have to cannibalize the Feruchemical gene for its fuel.
3. Hemalurgy too needs fuel. I see spiking as an act of entropy that summons Ruin’s Investiture. The metal spike Focuses the Investiture into the power that transfers sDNA. That Focused power fuels Hemalurgy. If Ruin’s Investiture didn’t fuel Hemalurgy, the spike wouldn’t have to be metal.
4. It’s true Allomancy isn’t “fueled by the metals.” It’s fueled by Preservation’s Investiture. BUT – thermodynamics (IMO) requires some activation energy. I think whatever “burns” metal activates the Allomantic process. Body heat or stomach acid adds energy to cause the metal molecules to vibrate. Molecular vibration signals the Spiritual Realm to Invest the Allomancer with the type of power that metal calls for. Here’s a relevant WoB:
Quotethe metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. [Source.]
5. The Aviar bond is not similar to a Nahel bond. Aviar magic is an “interaction with magic” system, not a “people with magic” system like Surgebinding. The Aviar bond is more like the Singers’ natural bond with spren, also an “interaction with magic” system. Honor’s bonds are voluntarily entered into between two sapient people. Aviar are sentient birds, not sapient. I suspect the Nahel bond differs from all other cosmere bonds if for no reason than they are Honor’s. Other bonds reflect the Shard that created them. That includes Devotion and Dominion (seons and skaze) and Autonomy (the Aviar).
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@Argent's “The Magics of Roshar” topic speculates that the Fifth Oath fully merges Knights Radiant and their spren. Further speculation suggests a Fifth Oath Radiant becomes the equivalent of a Herald with Honorblade who can pull Investiture directly from the Spiritual Realm. I generally agree with this speculation.
@Jofwu on that thread asks this question:
On 5/22/2019 at 7:43 AM, Jofwu said:could this be exactly what Nale was referring to as the "greater power of the oaths" that Honor has to "regulate"? Would this suggest that Honor withheld the ability intentionally from Radiants in the past? Why? Why is that dangerous?
The answer may lie in what Nale tells Szeth:
QuoteNin continued. “Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”
(OB, Chapter 106, Kindle p. 986, bold added.)
Nale says the Oathpact is “balanced.” I read him to mean there’s only one Herald per divine attribute. Fifth Oath Radiants could upset that balance and weaken the Oathpact. The “measures we took” seems a reference to Taln. Ishar fears Fifth Oath Radiants might somehow disable Taln’s Desolation defense.
While Honor lived, he could decline to accept Radiant Fifth Oaths. The Stormfather, who replaced Honor, has yet to decline any oath. Nale kills incipient Radiants to ensure they never rival Heralds.
Ishar’s threatening letter to Dalinar fits this concern. Ishar doesn’t want a rival Bondsmith wielding the “power of Connection.” Crazy is as crazy does.
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It’s been more than five years since I wrote about the difference between Radiants’ primary and secondary divine attributes. I concluded then that spren of an order are attracted to humans who exhibit that order’s primary attribute. I theorized the spren bond leads the Radiants to their secondary attribute but didn’t go into detail.
A few days ago, in a very long post on many topics, I wrote about the impact of oaths on Radiant organization. I opined the Radiant’s Fifth Oath means they achieved their secondary attribute. That’s when they fully merge with their spren. This post puts more flesh on that conclusion.
Here’s the list of each order’s primary and secondary divine attributes:
Order Primary Attribute Secondary Attribute
Windrunners Protecting Leading
Skybreakers Just Confident
Dustbringers Brave Obedient
Edgedancers Loving Healing
Truthwatchers Learned Giving
Lightweavers Creative Honest
Elsecallers Wise Careful
Willshapers Resolute Builder
Stonewards Dependable Resourceful
Bondsmiths Pious Guiding
The secondary attribute seems a more outward-looking, “uniting” version of the primary attribute. The primary attribute is about the Radiant. The secondary attribute is about how the Radiant should act toward others. It’s like the difference between first person (me) and second person (you).
Windrunners better protect when they lead others.
Skybreakers seem more just when they’re confident in their judgment.
Dustbringer bravery (and hotheadedness) better serves when they’re obedient.
Edgedancer love finds meaning in healing.
Truthwatcher learning has meaning when given to share.
Lightweaver creativity requires self- and artistic honesty.
Elsecallers should temper their wisdom with care. (Jasnah “wisely” concluding to kill the Heralds...)
Willshaper resolve makes them foundation builders.
Stoneward dependability leads to resourcefulness. (Get the job done no matter what.)
Bondsmith piety attracts followers to guide.
This framework shows oaths bridge the gap between primary and secondary attributes. Each oath brings the Radiant closer to their secondary attribute. When they achieve it, the Radiant can say the Fifth Oath and merge Spiritual aspects with their spren.
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Again, lots of good stuff to sift through! I’ve added headings to make the post easier to skim.
My goal is to move people away from the Shard = personality model. That model is only half-right. I believe the WoB that says Shards combine “primal force/fundamental law” with personality is Brandon’s single most important utterance about Shards. IMO, the Shard’s primal force explains how cosmere magic works mechanically. Personality explains how the Vessels use their Shard. I focus on Endowment (since you mentioned her) to show how force and personality meld.
Does Endowment Fit My Cosmere Magic Theory?
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:This seems like a reasonable foundation. I am hesitant to apply this absolutely and categorically, just because of how many Shards we don't know anything about, and because how this plays with Shards like Harmony, but I think it certainly fits for Preservation, Ruin, and Honor; Endowment, for example, is a little weird. It may end up that your model works for a specific - if dominant - type of initiation, or that it is somehow involved in the acquisition of the magic past the initiation (e.g. everyone on Nalthis gets a Breath and can Awaken, but you need an act of endowment to accomplish the more spectacular things Awakening can accomplish).
I theorize every Vessel Connects to Spiritual Realm Investiture through some primal force. You suggest Shards other than Ruin, Preservation, and Honor might not. Personally I think there’s too much ad hoc analysis of cosmere magic. Brandon says the cosmere generally works by the same set of rules.
THE FOLLOWING IS SPECULATION. (That’s in caps for @Calderis' sake.) IMO, there’s a fair bit of evidence that Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics. You don’t have to agree, but assume that’s true to show how this might work.
Primal Force
My theory predicts Breath holders (1) access Spiritual Realm Investiture through quantum physics (Endowment’s “filter”), and (2) Awaken objects through quantum physics. Will these predictions hold?
Brandon says Breaths equate to a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture – its smallest usable unit. Every Nalthian is born with that Investiture quantum. As you say, every Nalthian can Awaken. Endowment passes the first test since Nalthians access Endowment’s Investiture through quanta. To our knowledge, no other Shard allocates its Investiture by quanta or has a magic system built on them.
The second test says Awakening itself must rely on quantum physics. Your “act of endowment” is the Awakener’s transfer of Investiture quanta to an object. There are no partial Breaths. Awakening passes the second test: Each Awakening works through the transfer of Investiture quanta.
These bits of quantum “flavor” add to, but are unnecessary for, the theory:
- The Heightenings represent the quantization of Breaths. Because of age, illness, and related factors, Breaths hold slightly different amounts of Investiture.
- Awakening drains “color.” I believe Awakening destroys an object’s pigment molecules in all three Realms like Nightblood does. (Pigments reflect visible light the eye perceives as color.) For thermodynamic reasons, I theorize Awakening consumes the pigment molecules’ Investiture. These molecules are reduced to their subatomic particles – the realm of quantum physics.
- Nalthis’ subastral is filled with light. Photons are quanta of light.
Vessel Personality
Brandon tells us Endowment wants to create a cosmere market in Breaths. Breaths are portable and self-Identify with their holder. Because Nalthis is Breaths’ sole source, supply is limited. Endowment’s Vessel chooses to endow Nalthis with a legacy of enormous wealth and cosmere significance.
That is possible ONLY because Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics (IMO). As same-sized Investiture quanta, Breaths are the perfect asset for her market since the value of each Breath at any time will be the same as every other Breath. You can even create a futures market for Breaths.
Who Created Radiant Spren
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:I don't know if I agree with this suggestion. I've long held the belief that the Radiant spren are "uplifted" pre-Shattering spren, but which Shard did this uplifting has always been unclear to me; my assumption had been that both were involved, to different extents in different spren.
It's Brandon’s hint in the quoted WoB, not mine. I don’t think it matters whether one Shard or two were involved. Because we’re talking spren, it seems more reasonable Cultivation made this change. She tells us, “I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED.” (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) That includes spren. In my “Cultivation’s Long-Term Plan” post, I suggest her motive: “Cultivation may have foreseen Aharietiam and needed a magical alternative to the Heralds that didn’t rely exclusively on Honor’s Investiture.”
Fabrials Apply Surges
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:Ico's device is, I believe, not a traditional fabrial. He brings up the concept of manifesting souls as he operates it in front of Kaladin, which leads me to believe it has more to do with that. My interpretation of that exchange is more along the lines of Ico going "some of your kind can manifest souls directly. If you were one of them, I could just give you this Cognitive Aspect of a really cold block ice and you could just manifest that for as much water as you need; but since you can't, we need to use this device that's a pale imitation of this process, and wait a long time for water." I think this has less to do with Surges and more with natural properties of the Cognitive Realm - similar to Kelsier manifesting himself some fire, only weaker and more mechanical.
Ico uses his fabrial because Kaladin can’t Soulcast. My point is fabrials apply fundamental forces (Surges) like earth’s machines do. I think Ico’s fabrial uses Soulcasting’s Transformation Surge. IMO, introducing “natural properties of the Cognitive Realm” complicates the explanation.
Imprisonment Is Not a Bond
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:I think I see the imprisonment of spren in modern fabrials are just another kind of bond - closer to what the singers do, but parasitic rather than symbiotic. A ball & chain is still a bond. Ancient fabrials, Oathgates specifically, use a less harmful version of that, since the spren do appear to be bound to the gems of the fabrial (otherwise why would Odium believe they can rebuild the Thaylen City Oathgate as long as they have the gems?).
Imprisonment is NOT a bond. The “primal force/fundamental law” WoB says “Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” IOW, Honor’s primal force only encompasses voluntary bonds, not imprisonment or enslavement.
I can only guess at gemstones’ role in ancient fabrials. Radiant spren transition between Realms through the Nahel bond. Maybe other spren need gemstones to transition. I presume Oathgate spren are the Oathgates’ Cognitive aspect (its “soul”). Maybe gemstones enable the Oathgate spren to manifest in the Physical Realm as needed to make the Oathgate work. This doesn’t seem too different from spren transforming Singers from inside their gemhearts. If Odium thought he needed these particular gemstones, they must be Spiritually tied to the Oathgate spren.
My Characterization of Cal’s Words
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:I don't think @Calderis is saying what you think is saying. My comment - which I think he supports here - is about how Cultivation is involved in Surgebinding simply because some Radiant spren have some of her Investiture in them; not because Cultivation has explicitly responsible for their transformation. Kind of the same way as saying that glass is involved in driving because it is a component of cars.
I only attribute to Cal his acknowledgment that Cultivation’s influence is the spren. The stuff you think I attribute to Cal comes from me, and I expressly preface it, “IMO...”
Cal doesn’t say spren are transformative entities that transition between Realms. I do. And I stand by it. Radiant spren are Surgebinding’s engine, not some peripheral component. They generate the car’s power. IMO, it’s irrelevant that engine parts can be made from Honor, Cultivation, or Odium (unless there are cosmere tariffs). Cultivation controls “ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED” including spren of any Investiture. My previous post describes how I think spren Transform to access Surges.
Requested WoBs
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:I am curious about this WoB though. It sounds like something that makes sense, but I don't remember it stated outright. If you could find that for me?
Here’s two WoBs on “people with magic” vs. “interaction with nature” systems.
SpoilerQuoteQuestioner
What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?
Brandon Sanderson
The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.
Questioner
I'm assuming there is not one there?
Brandon Sanderson
There is not one there.
Questioner
So it's like a Splintered one from something else?
Brandon Sanderson
No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...
Questioner
So there is inherent Investiture...
Brandon Sanderson
There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.
Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014) (bold added).
A more recent WoB about minor Shardworlds confirms this distinction. It mostly deals with Autonomy’s assigned Investiture on First of the Sun (and itself is an extremely important WoB IMO).
QuoteI still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.
Source (January 1, 2018) (bold added).
Voidbinders
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:Voidbinders - who are explicitly not Fused.
Where is this “explicitly” stated? That might affect my opinion. Brandon says pre-OB we haven’t seen Voidbinding. That tells us Stormform is not Voidbinding. (In a literal sense, the listeners were Voidbringers.) Is there something I missed? (IIRC, didn’t you write the post that made this point?)
Odium and Passion
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:then it is precisely the act of severing his Connections to... let's say his Passion, that makes it possible for Odium to come in and fill that with his power
Not a big point, but FWIW I think the opposite is true. I think by severing people’s Connections to one another, Odium frees passion. One of my posts compares Odium to Freud’s id (unrestrained passion). Honor is Freud’s superego (culturally imposed societal rules), and Cultivation is Freud’s ego (mediating between the id and the superego). Brandon’s magical metaphor, IMO: People who cut themselves off from others fill with hate.
Connections
On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:This being said, neither dis-Connect makes complete sense to me, Realmatically speaking. Probably because I don't understand Connection as fully as I need to, for something like that to make sense. Connection to land and people I understand. Connection to Shards... kind of. Connection to natural forces? Less so. Connection to emotions? Not in the slightest bit, though I'd be curious to find out whether that's related to the Rhythms in some significant way...
Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections with raw Investiture. Connections ARE the natural forces and emotions. People don’t Connect TO forces and emotions. People Connect to objects and other people THROUGH them:
QuoteConnection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions. [Source (bold added).]
Gravity is a Connection between objects (including people) and a planet. Emotions Connect people to each other, to ideas, to times, to places, and to objects. Abrasion is a Connection between two objects in physical contact. All the cosmere’s fundamental forces are Connections. Kelsier sees that the Spiritual Realm is “Only Connection, person to person, man to world, Kelsier to god.” (M:SH, Part 3-3, Kindle Loc. 1032.)
Mortals Access Investiture Through Shard Filters
On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:But just like the Metallic Arts, access to a system can be gained through other means. Look at Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy itself is just the theft and bestowal of a spike. If you use allomancy or Feruchemy that was gained via Hemalurgy, your still using Preservation's system, and the mechanisms it relies on.
As such, Renarin's Voidbinding would be a hacked access that doesn't negate the fact that he's using both systems. The Fused would be the same. Just because they are using A non-traditional means to gain access does not mean they aren't using Surgebinding. [Bold added.]
The issue is how mortals access Investiture, not how they “access ... a system.” Hemalurgy relies on magic that transfers sDNA between people. Ruin’s primal force “filters” that magic into spiking – an act of entropy. Hemalurgically-granted Allomancy and Feruchemy are still Preservation’s systems because even spiked Allomancers and Feruchemists access Investiture through Preservation’s “stasis” filter.
Renarin accesses Odium through Honor’s bonding filter, the Nahel bond. That means Renarin Surgebinds when he foresees. No “hack” is necessary. IMO, Glys isn’t even a hack of Cultivation’s system. I think all spren, including voidspren, manifest their power through Transformation. Renarin is like any other Surgebinder except his spren also Connects to Odium.
I’ll talk more about the Fused below.
On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:A Shard's intent determines the primary means of access, and not the powers that the system grants, yes... But that does not mean there is no difference between the systems.
I think unique Shard filters explain most system differences, and planet peculiarities explain the rest. Windrunners bond to fly. Hemalurgist spike to transfer sDNA. Awakeners transfer Investiture quanta to Awaken, etc.
Surges and the Fused
On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:The Fused lack of distinction between their powers used and Surgebinding says that they are using the same system as Surgebinders. This is not to say that they can't voidbind. The means by which they gain voidlight itself may well be proof that they can, but the powers shown do not indicate that they are using a different system.
Allomancy does not suddenly become Hemalurgy just because it was gained by a spike. In the same vein, however the Fused have gained access to Surgebinding doesn't change what it appears to be.
We’ve had the “Fused are/aren’t Voidbinding” discussion before, and you are right to refer folks to that thread. I emphasize here, though, that “Surges” are simply Rosharans’ collective perception of cosmere fundamental forces. I think Singers and humans perceive the Surges identically. Since Singers predate Rosharan humans – and the Fused predate the Heralds – humans might have adopted the Singer’s perception of the Surges. I don’t think any of this involves hacking; but if it does, who’s hacking whom?
You know I think the Fused do exercise their abilities differently from Radiants, but IMO their magical abilities as such don’t matter. Whether the Fused Surgebind or Voidbind IMO turns on how they access Investiture. I believe the Fused access Investiture through Odium’s filter. I HYPOTHESIZE his filter is breaking Connections. Hate divides.
@Jofwu, Voidbinding glyphs half-rotate Surgebinding glyphs IMO because Voidbinders access the same Surges as Surgebinders by different means. I see different Surge expressions where Cal doesn’t. If Investiture access (the Shard’s filter) defines a magic system, half-rotated glyphs with the same Surges makes sense. Especially if Odium’s filter is breaking (not making) Connections...
Cultivation and the Nahel Bond
On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:Surgebinding being Honor's system is all well and good. The Nahel bond still involves Cultivation via the spren, and I think this is shown fairly clearly through the progression of the oaths.
Not a biggie, but I think it misleads to say the “Nahel bond still involves Cultivation.” I don’t believe it does. Oath progression affects the bond, not the spren. Oaths are an “Honor-y” thing. For many Radiants, the Nahel bond may stall before the 5th and possibly earlier oaths. The bond prevents those spren from manifesting fully. (More on this next.) It’s not some inherent spren property related to Cultivation. If you still disagree, that’s fine. This is a minor quibble.
Ishar’s Role
On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:And Malata, the definitive proof in my mind that the oaths do not in themselves provide the organization or restriction that people want the creation and imposition of the oaths to supply...
Agreed. Oaths don’t embody organization or restriction. Lightweaver truths show oaths lack moral content. Oaths serve to strengthen the Nahel bond. BUT...Oath progression parallels the Radiant’s internal growth. I think their own growth restrains Radiant behavior.
I believe an order’s primary divine attribute attracts the spren to its Radiant. IMO, each completed oath takes the Radiant closer to their goal, their order’s secondary divine attribute. I think each Fifth Oath manifests that attribute, fully merging Radiant and spren.
The secondary divine attributes seem an outward-looking, “uniting” version of the primary divine attribute. Examples: Protecting others vs. Leading others to protect themselves. Loving others, which is about “you” vs. Healing others, which is about “them.” Wise, which can lead to Nightblood vs. Careful, ensuring your wisdom won’t hurt others. [I may flesh this idea out in an update to my 2014 post.]
We don’t know the Dustbringer oaths or how many Malata has spoken. The Dustbringers’ divine attributes are “brave” (primary) and “obedient” (secondary). IMO, each oath marks Malata as more obedient. Your quote suggests Malata hasn’t progressed very far to obedience. Since Dustbringers literally seem to be hotheads, obedience is a good trait for them to aspire to. It puts them under some leader’s control. Malatadin?
Conclusion
Key idea: Shards magically differ only in how they access Investiture. Brandon says each Shard has its own magical “filter.” Surgebinders access Honor through bonds, Allomancers access Preservation through stasis, and Hemalurgists access Ruin through entropy. That much Brandon is clear about.
Corollary: The magical abilities Shards grant work through the same filter. Windrunners bond gravity in a new direction to fly. Hemalurgists spike attributes (an act of entropy) to transfer them. Feruchemists return to the status quo (an act of stasis) when they re-convert Investiture into attributes. And I SPECULATE Awakeners transfer quanta of Investiture when they animate objects.
I think this theory explains Shard magic. Vessel personality explains the rest.
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Great post, @Argent, and great discussion by everyone!!! There’s so much here to digest and discuss, starting with my favorite topic.
Means of Access Defines Magic Systems
Yes! You, @Jofwu, and now even @Calderis all agree the Surgebinding system is Honor’s regardless of which spren grant abilities through that system. “Some of the magics lean more Honor and some [of] them lean more Cultivation.” And some like Glys grant Odium-associated abilities. Because Surgebinders access these abilities through the Nahel bond, the system IMO remains Surgebinding even for Renarin.
I presented this analogy last year on Discord: The Nahel bond is like a gun. Surgebinders can load their gun with different bullets, namely spren of different Investitures that personify different abilities. But the nature of the bullet doesn’t change the nature of the gun. The gun (the Nahel bond) always belongs to Honor.
The Boskone WoB @TheEdgedancer quotes also shows that magics like “flying,” that rely more on Honor’s Investiture, work through bond-creation: “So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go.” Brandon implies that magics like healing, that rely more on Cultivation’s Investiture, work through growth/transformation. IMO, the Boskone WoB establishes these two important rules of cosmere magic:
1. Each Shard’s unique means of accessing Investiture defines its magic system like the Nahel bond defines Surgebinding as Honor’s.
2. The magical abilities Shards grant work by the same method as the Shard’s means of accessing Investiture, like using bonds to “fly.”
The Boskone WoB amplifies two older WoBs I often cite. They say in part:
“The means of getting powers ... are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” [2008]
“The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” [2011]
This 2018 WoB confirms three Shards’ “primal forces/fundamental laws.” Ruin is entropy, Preservation is stasis, and Honor “is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by,” that is, bonds. IMO, mortals access Ruin by Intending an act of entropy; they access Preservation by Intending an act of stasis; and they access Honor by Intending a bond. You see this when you look at these Shards’ magic systems.
I use every opportunity to make this case because I am so convinced it is the right way to understand Shards. This framework clears away a lot of the confusion the OP cites. I’ve yet to see a contrary analysis that addresses these four WoBs.
Surgebinding Through Radiant Spren
On 5/22/2019 at 0:05 AM, Argent said:Also note that the complete absence of Surgebinders until sometime after the creation of the Honorblades is not an issue either; the magic system can exist without anyone making use of it. It took some time for humans and spren to figure out how to access it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there. If this doesn't sit well with you, however, you can take the route of Honor not establishing Surgebinding until after the Honorblades were created.
We don’t know when Radiant spren came to exist, but “All of the sapient spren are later developments.” Brandon hints Cultivation created them. Since Radiant spren mimic Honorblades, they must post-date them. I think Surgebinding didn’t exist until the Honorblades, and KR Surgebinding didn’t exist until after that. But I agree Honor’s bonding mechanic always held the potential for Surgebinding.
Here’s a question: Radiant spren personify the Heralds’ primary divine attributes like protection, justice, and learning. Each Radiant spren binds the Surges its mimicked Honorblade can bind. Yet these Surges, for both Honorblades and Radiant spren, seem unrelated to the divine attribute. Why, for example, should “just” Skybreakers fly and divide? I know there are “natural pairings,” which I believe relate to the “five classical elements” of air, water, fire, earth, and aether. But the relationship between divine attribute and Surge always seemed weird to me.
Oaths and Orders
I’ve long believed Ishar threatened Radiant spren, not Surgebinders. Here’s the relevant quote:
Quote“But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.”
WoR, Chapter 42 Epigraph (bold added).
The bolded pronouns’ have uncertain antecedents. I think the first “them” refers to “men.” Ishar wants Surgebinders to organize themselves into the orders. IMO, the bolded “one” and “they” don’t make sense as references to men. Destroying all Surgebinders doesn’t prevent future Surgebinding because the Radiant spren are still around waiting to bond. Moreover, mortal men can’t agree to “precepts and laws” that bind future Surgebinder generations.
But immortal spren CAN agree to bind themselves to Ishar’s laws, and IMO they did. As the Binder of Gods and the Bondsmith’s Patron Herald, Ishar could cut each spren’s Nahel bond, “killing” them. There’s not a lot to support this interpretation other than logic, but this seems more plausible than just threatening to kill Surgebinders who couldn’t bind later generations in any event.
On 5/22/2019 at 7:43 AM, Jofwu said:I have leaned more towards the assumption that the Surgebinders didn't have oaths at all prior to Ishar organizing them into the Knights Radiant. But if you strip those away then you're really just left with (1) the bonding aspect and (2) the Honorblade imitation aspect. The second doesn't seem to be fundamentally related to Honor in a clear way, if that makes any sense. And the first doesn't seem very novel, given the way spren have long been able to bond with other lifeforms on the planet. Different types of bonds, but bonds nonetheless. I'm left to imagine that either (1) there WERE some kind of oaths involved with the original Surgebinders (just much less organized I guess) and/or (2) there's something very telling about Honor's nature in the Nahel bond that's different from other types of spren bonds.
I don’t think oaths are a necessary part of Surgebinding. Bonds are “an Honor thing,” not oaths. Ishar felt he needed to organize men and impose oaths because oath-less Surgebinders had begun to appear. Radiant spren already searched for Cognitively compatible humans to bond with. Oaths IMO are just a means to regulate human power and prevent another Ashyn. Oaths don’t form the bond, they strengthen it. I believe Honor could have found another way than oaths to bond Honorblades to the Heralds and bind the Fused to Braize.
On 5/22/2019 at 9:12 AM, Calderis said:I very very much disagree with the idea that Ishar imposed or created the oaths. They were not man made, other than through mankind's influence on the spren themselves.
I think the WoB you rely on refers to the subjectivity of oaths. It says, “two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same.” The Boskone WoB, a year later, agrees: “whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath.”
The WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph quoted above states Ishar did impose some “precepts and laws.” I speculate at minimum he imposed the First Oath, which binds all orders. Maybe the Heralds themselves vowed the First Oath’s litany when making the Oathpact. Each KR might interpret the First Oath differently, but it does bind them all to a general moral code.
Anyway, “mankind's influence on the spren themselves” is the exception that swallows the rule. As your WoB shows, men and spren influence each other in an ongoing interactive process.
Fabrials
On 5/22/2019 at 0:05 AM, Argent said:Fabrials can be either a natural extension of Roshar's own native magic, or they can be a formal magic system crafted by both Honor and Cultivation. You could even make the claim that fabrials are of Cultivation specifically, while Surgebinding is solely of Honor.
Fabrials to me are solely Cultivation’s magic system. Odium identifies Cultivation as the Shard of growth and transformation. Cultivation IMO accesses fundamental forces through transformation. Khriss calls spren “transformative Cognitive entities.” (SLA Ars Arcana.)
I believe Stormlight causes spren to manifest in the Physical Realm. They transform from the idea they personify into the thing itself: fire, water, life, etc. All things have three aspects including these phenomena. Stormlight transforms spren from their Cognitive aspect into their Physical aspect. I think that’s the magical basis for fabrials.
On 5/22/2019 at 0:05 AM, Argent said:fabrials lead to... effects. Effects that are, in some ways, similar to Surges - which makes sense, the Surges are kind of like fundamental forces, so everything will be related to them - but also different from them; no Surge, as we understand it, can selectively draw water from the air, or produce heat, or take someone's pain away. So perhaps it is in these... almost surgical divisions of the Surges that we find room for a standalone magic system. Something that still involves a bond, a thing of Honor (even if modern ones are more about trapping spren than bonding with them), but also requires a (mechanical, apparently) cultivation of the spren's nature, a way to take this seed of elemental power and direct it, refine it, grow it into something specific. [Bold added.]
The Surges are Roshar’s perception of fundamental forces. (If you haven’t yet, I’d be honored if you would look at my “Primacy of Perception” thread about perception’s cosmere-wide role.)
IMO, fabrials are machines that apply fundamental forces just like earth’s machines apply our fundamental forces. For example, a Surge that heats air can condense water onto a cold surface. Maybe Captain Ico’s fabrial uses the Adhesion and/or Abrasion Surges to cause Physical Realm air molecules to collide and generate heat and the Transformation Surge to bring the condensed water into Shadesmar.
I’m unsure what you mean, Argent, when you say, “Something that still involves a bond.” You acknowledge modern fabrial users don’t bond their spren. Brandon says Honor's bonds are voluntary. I doubt even ancient fabrial users bond their spren. Oathgate users don’t seem to bond Oathgate spren.
Cultivation’s Influence
On 5/22/2019 at 9:12 AM, Calderis said:All of the Cultivation influence given in the WoBs and what we've seen could come from the nature of the spren themselves, not the system. There is no requirement for any of that from the Honorblades, and those are still Surgebinding.
Argent was saying that the system is Honor's, which I agree with, and that being bonded to a spren that is partially of Cultivation (the filter, in your posted WoB) adds that influence in the means of access.
Cal, I’m thrilled you now agree Surgebinding is Honor’s system alone. If I can only get you to accept the Boskone WoB and related WoBs as a framework applicable to all Shards... (Sighs.)
I agree Cultivation’s influence is the spren – Khriss’ “transformative Cognitive entity.” IMO, Stormlight transforms all spren from their Cognitive aspect into their Physical aspect regardless of the spren’s Investiture mix. The idea of fire becomes fire. The idea of foresight becomes foresight. The idea of flying becomes flying. The Nahel bond is the pathway that Connects the Radiant spren’s Cognitive and Physical aspects.
Your Honorblade comment is apt. Honorblades access the same fundamental forces as spren but without spren. Honor’s Investiture is solely responsible for Honorblade magic. FWIW, your example supports the 2008 and 2011 WoBs I link above that say Shards differ only in “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what [the magic] can do.”
The “Old Magic”
On 5/22/2019 at 0:05 AM, Argent said:- The Old Magic is related to Cultivation, and it may or may not be an actual Invested Art.
I recall Khriss uses this term someplace, but I’m unsure what an “Invested Art” is. I assume you mean magic systems where mortals can direct the magic. (Art requires an artist.) Brandon calls those “people with magic” systems and says they all arose after the Shattering. Before then, there were only “interaction with nature” systems, where mortals interacted with magic as part of their ecosystem but couldn’t direct it.
I think the Old Magic is an “interaction with nature” system. Mortals can ask the Nightwatcher for a boon, but they can’t direct or control what she’ll do. She gives mortals what she thinks they “deserve.” By my understanding of your definition, the Old Magic is not an Invested Art.
Odium’s Magical Influence
I agree, Argent, with pretty much everything you say about the Regals. Voidspren occupy their gemhearts like other spren do. And I agree this is an “interaction with nature” system that predates the Shattering. Odium now uses it to his advantage.
I’m sure you know I disagree about the Fused. For many reasons – mostly textual and all of which I spell out elsewhere – I believe Odium’s primal force is breaking Connections. IMO, the “Broken One” takes someone’s pain by breaking their Connection to whatever (usually whoever) causes the pain. This broken emotional Connection leaves a void in that person’s Spiritual aspect through which Odium’s Investiture enters.
Yes, I believe the Fused are Voidbinders. They have so few Connections to anyone that Odium’s Investiture fills them. They reincarnate by terminating their host’s Connection to life. I think the Fused break Connections to perform their magic. They dis-Connect the Gravitation Surge to fly and dis-Connect the Abrasion Surge to glide. I’ve advocated this interpretation elsewhere in much more detail and don’t intend to provoke discussion about it here. Few, if any, agree with me. We’ll discover what’s cosmere truth soon enough.
Conclusion
Oh, the joy of a thoughtful, well-considered thread on topics dear to my heart! Thank you all.
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“Giant Pony”
@Halyo_Alex and @Steeldancer: Thanks for your comments, but I think you misunderstand me. Non-magic users can’t create giant ponies or spontaneously change their Connections to become magic users. They can and do form mundane Connections through their relationships with other people and objects. Both mundane and magical Connections IMO mirror mortal perception, not the underlying reality. Earth’s gravity may help explain what I mean.
Gravity’s Perception
Newton in the 17th C. mathematically defines gravity. Newton’s formula is a metaphor, a scientific model. For 250 years, scientists “Connect” to gravity as Newton defines it. Then comes Einstein’s General Relativity theory. A new metaphor now describes gravity. Gravity doesn’t change, but our perception of gravity does. In cosmere terms, our new perception rewrites our gravity Connection.
Paradigm Shifts:
SpoilerI urge anyone interested in how scientific models change to read Thomas Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Kuhn’s book coins the phrase “paradigm shift” to describe these changes. Now in its 4th edition, the book is considered one of the 20th C’s great sociological and philosophical works. It’s a relatively short and easy read.
Text Examples
Khriss describes how the “rules of perception” magically apply on Sel:
QuoteIn addition, the rules of perception and intent are greatly magnified on Sel, to the point that language—or similar functions—directly shapes the magic as it is pulled from the Cognitive Realm and put to use. This overlap between language, location, and magic on the planet has become so integral to the system that subtle changes in one can have profound effects on how the Dor is accessed.
(AU, “The Selish System,” Kindle p. 18, bold added.)
Khriss refers to the way Sel’s location-bound magic systems access the Dor differently. I believe Selish magic always begins with some motion, but the motion’s form varies. Elantrians draw Aons, JinDo dance steps, Forgers and Bloodsealers twist essence stamps, and Dakhor monks twist their bones. These localized Cognitive expressions Connect differently to the Dor, but all still work.
Here’s another example of perception’s role in making Connections:
QuoteQuestioner
Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?
Brandon Sanderson
Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.
Source (bold added).
Perception Defines Spiritual Realm Ideals
We agree Spiritual aspects are Platonic ideals. The OP theorizes perception defines Spiritual aspects and their ideals. Shai confirms this:
Quote“These things exist beyond us…We think about windows, we know about windows; what is and isn’t a window takes on…meaning in the Spiritual Realm. Takes on life, after a fashion.”
TES, Kindle p. 75, (ellipsis in original; bold added).
Pattern tells Shallan the same thing:
QuotePattern hummed. “Truth is individual.”
“What? No it’s not. Truth is . . . it’s Truth. Reality.”
“Your truth is what you see,” Pattern said, sounding confused. “What else could it be? That is the truth that you spoke to me, the truth that brings power.”
...
“Pattern,” she said, tapping her pencil— one she’d gotten from the merchants, along with paper. “This table has four legs. Would you not say that is a truth, independent of my perspective?”
Pattern buzzed uncertainly. “What is a leg? Only as it is defined by you. Without a perspective, there is no such thing as a leg, or a table. There is only wood.”
“You’ve told me the table perceives itself this way.”
“Because people have considered it, long enough, as being a table,” Pattern said. “It becomes truth to the table because of the truth the people create for it.”
WoR, Chapter 24, Kindle pp. 308-309, bold added.)
Mortal perception defines ideas (time, space, and gravity), objects (windows and tables), and all of Physical Realm reality. Marasi learns this when she draws power from the Bands of Mourning:
QuoteBlue lines exploded from her, first pointing at metals, then multiplying, changing, transforming. She saw through it all, everything in blue. There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced.
(BoM, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359.)
The cosmere’s reality is “just energy coalesced,” or more deeply, pure Investiture organized in ways no one sees or understands. As Pattern says, “Your truth is what you see... What else could it be?”
Babies?
On 5/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Steeldancer said:Plus, babies... aren't sentient. They aren't self aware. But they are definitely recording data there as they grow and stuff.
This made me laugh! Babies aren’t self-aware? Tell that to parents whose babies wake them every few hours to eat or be changed. I think those parents might disagree with you.
Are Connections Inherent?
On 5/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Steeldancer said:I don't think connection is so much perceived, as much as it just kind of is. You can't... actively change where you were born, for example.
SOMETHING “is.” Mortals call that something “Connection.” What does “where you were born” even mean when everything including “you” is coalesced energy/organized Investiture?
Spiritual Realm Problems?
On 5/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Steeldancer said:There's lots of problems with saying only sentient minds make changes to what's in the spiritual realm.
What else could make Spiritual Realm changes? Rocks can’t write a Connection. Mortals instead Connect with their perception of the rock. They don’t see the rock at its subatomic, “coalesced energy,” or Investiture levels.
Sentient minds observe the Physical Realm and create Connections to explain what they see. This is part of Brandon’s broader theme that the mind makes magic in the cosmere.
Are Cosmere Truths Knowable?
On 5/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Steeldancer said:I fundamentally disagree with your idea that Adonalsium's way of setting up the universe is "unknowable." Cuz... Brandon made this whole thing up. And I've made it my life mission to figure out what the heck is going on inside his head when he makes this up.
Unknowable by in-world mortals, not us. Deciphering Brandon’s brain is my mission too. Unlike you, on an actuarial basis I don’t have the next forty years to wait for my answers.
The Human Ideal, Perfect Self, and Cognitive Self
@Karger and @Bigmikey357, you ask an excellent question: where does one’s “perfect self” come from?
I think we should distinguish between the “perfect human” and the “perfect self.” The human ideal IMO derives from humanity’s collective perception of itself. The “spark of life” that turns coalesced energy into humanity exists independently of that perception. I believe many, many Connections go into defining the human ideal.
The “perfect self” OTOH is literally that – the best that person can be. IMO, the “perfect self” Connects to the human ideal, but no “perfect self” rises to the human ideal. I think our genetic capacity limits our self (though genetics is another scientific metaphor). In-world mortals might say inherited traits Connect to our ancestor’s gene pool.
I believe an individual’s self-perception defines their “Cognitive self.” Kaladin’s Cognitive self has brands. Lopen’s Cognitive self grows him a new arm.
Something “External” Perceives and Writes Connections?
On 5/9/2019 at 9:52 PM, Bigmikey357 said:For the OP's theory to work something else has to be recording the Spiritual records. Something external has to be perceiving. I personally believe the more Invested an entity is the more easily they can alter the Spiritual records with perception as the editor.
Why must “something external” perceive and write Connections when mortal perception defines everything? Even the cosmere definition of “fundamental force” varies by planet:
QuoteAnd the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force.
The WoB characterizes our own universe’s fundamental forces as a “human construction.” I agree Adonalsium (or whatever) created the cosmere’s Investiture-energy matrix. The OP posits Connections are mortals’ attempt to understand and describe that matrix.
I Have No Words...
On 5/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Steeldancer said:Also, why are your theories just so dang hard to read? I consider myself a high level reader, and I squint my eyes a lot, trying to piece together what you're trying to say. I recommend more laymans terms. More upvotes that way
Oh, Calderis! (Last one, I promise.)
SpoilerCal, I appreciate our interactions, do not take offense, and hope I give none. You say you’re not the “most socially skilled person.” I struggle daily with OCD. I can be more dogged than I realize I’m being. (If you haven’t noticed, my posts include few spelling or grammar errors. I edit A LOT.) You’re free to respond to whom and how you will.
On 5/9/2019 at 3:25 PM, Calderis said:And therein lies my problem with your persistence on this issue. I have repeatedly told you that I disagree with your interpretation of many WoBs. I have repeatedly told you that many of the things that you have said, such as Odium’s "primal force" is breaking Connections is something that I don't see evidence for.
And herein lies my problem with your responses: I feel you never analyze the theory itself, that each Shard’s “primal force” magically distinguishes it from the others.
Yes, our WoB interpretations sometimes differ. But even when I’m wrong (more often than I’d like), the errors you mention don’t disprove the theory. The theory doesn’t rest on my speculations about Endowment’s or Odium’s “primal force.” The theory rests entirely on text and Brandon’s unequivocal (IMO) words about Ruin (entropy), Preservation (stasis), and Honor (bonds). To borrow a Singer analogy, I feel you focus on the broth and not the meat.
IIRC, you haven’t yet interpreted the 2017 WoB about Honor and bonds – certainly not in the context of other WoBs that support it. Yet that’s Brandon’s clearest statement to date on how Shards magically differ from one another.
Before commenting on Spool’s recent theory, I took time to make sure I understood it. I felt Spool’s effort and thoughtfulness deserved to be honored with an equally thoughtful response. I even upvoted him despite my belief his theory lacks factual support and internal consistency. If you choose to respond to my posts in the future (and I hope you do), I ask you also take the time to do it right. With more than 9,200 posts to your credit, you spread yourself very thin. Careful attention to a theory and its internal logic goes a long way, at least with me.
Thanks for hanging in there. With respect, C.
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@Spoolofwhool's recent theory made me peer again into the Spiritual Realm. My conclusions may be more nuanced than new. I focus on time and foresight to illustrate. As always, this post represents MY INTERPRETATION of text and Brandon’s words even if not every sentence so states.
Theory
I theorize sentient life’s perceptions form all Spiritual Realm Connections and Spiritual aspects. The Spiritual Realm is a null set until some mind starts writing data there. I believe raw Spiritual Realm Investiture is protean, changeable, and can execute any command a mind imagines. Perception limits raw Investiture’s infinite scope for both Intentional magic and Connection formation.
Adonalsium programmed the cosmere’s unknowable “operating system.” In-world people use the metaphor “Connection” to explain Adonalsium’s operating system. Connections describe perceived Physical Realm reality. Words like time and space have Cognitive and Physical Realm meaning but are “irrelevant” in the Spiritual Realm.
IMO, perceiving a Connection writes that Connection onto raw Spiritual Realm Investiture. Connections are the programming code that defines Spiritual aspects. Connections collectively hold the cosmere’s full set of perceived information. Connections make the cosmere’s operating system comprehensible to mortal minds.
Connections plug into the operating system like software applications. I think metaphors like time and space work as they do in the Physical Realm BECAUSE mortals perceive they work that way (or so Syl says). Two reasons magic systems differ are their Shard and their planet’s Cognitive Realm subastral. Each subastral’s unique perceptions form unique Connections. Each planet runs a slightly different version of Connection software. Hence hacking.
What Brandon Says
QuoteThe Spiritual Realm consists solely of Investiture. Connections are not Investiture but “the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it’s more like a force than something comprised of something.”
“Time didn’t pass; time had no relevance here. It was not a place. Location had no relevance. Only Connection, person to person, man to world, Kelsier to god....” (M:SH, Chapter 3-3, Kindle Loc. 1028, bold added.).
A Spiritual aspect is “a mix of [a person’s] connections to places, people, and times with raw investiture.”
“I based [Roshar’s physics] on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes.”
“On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.”
“Really it's the Spiritual Realm that is completely time-independent, right? All time and space are irrelevant once you reach the Spiritual.”
“And the Spiritual realm has no time, um, it exists independent of time and location, all times and all places are one...”
“time and space don't mean anything anymore on the Spiritual Realm.”
Analysis
IMO, Brandon’s two key ideas are:
(1) “Only Connection” has Spiritual Realm relevance; and
(2) Spiritual Realm time and space “don’t mean anything,” are “irrelevant,” and are “one” with all other times and places.
I reconcile these ideas by concluding time and space are themselves “only Connection.” If they are SR-irrelevant, time and space must be Cognitive Realm constructs sentient minds impose on the Physical Realm. Brandon acknowledges this and says our physics is also a construct – a way humans impose order on earth. Sentient minds define Connections.
Sentient Minds Write Connections onto Raw Investiture
QuoteYes, quantum physics plays a role in the way the cosmere works, and this was partially intended to display that. However, we do take a different route, as thinking about something can directly influence it in the cosmere. So it's more a fantastical version of quantum physics.
Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 22, 2016) (bold added).
Brandon says the cosmere’s “fantastical version of quantum physics” means “thinking about something can directly influence it.” Thinking (or feeling) can write or rewrite a Connection that changes the Spiritual aspect. In Cognitive Realm time perception, that programming can occur moment by moment.
Space-Time
As a human construct, space-time has no SR relevance except through Connection. A newborn’s birth programs its Spiritual aspect with its human-imposed calendar birth date. The SR stores that Connection’s information. Other Connections store information on life expectancy, place of birth, and ethnicity. Each of these represents the human term for some feature of the cosmere’s operating system.
Past Events
A society’s “history” exists in the collective memories of its people. IMO, these events are stored in their Connection to people who witnessed or are taught/told about the events; and the events’ Connection to art, writing, or other artifact that memorializes the events. Perception affects these Connections: “History is written by the victors.” Singers and humans have different Connections with their past that reveal different explanations for the present. Over CR/PR time, “history” is erased and forgotten as memory and artifacts fade.
I speculate the Spiritual Realm “backs up” all its Connection data. Maybe this occurs at the atomic or sub-atomic level as people and objects decay into their components. Former Connections remain detectable the way digital data never fully erases.
Seeing the past through Connections seems easy. The information Connections store may exist “forever,” or at least as long as someone or some artifact remembers it. This information should be available to anyone whose magic allows them to look at it.
Foresight
Quote“Time didn’t pass; time had no relevance here. It was not a place. Location had no relevance. Only Connection, person to person, man to world, Kelsier to god....
I saw everything,” Kelsier mumbled. “Everyone, everything. My Connection to them, and . . . and . . .” Spreading into the future, he thought, grasping at an explanation. Possibilities, so many possibilities . . . like atium....
it was less a matter of looking, and more a matter of trying to sort through the horrible overload of information and sensation that assaulted him....
Kelsier turned toward the tendrils of light spreading into the distance. Possibilities upon possibilities, compounded upon one another. Infinite, overwhelming. The future....
“The ribbons of the future are never as useful as . . . as they should be,” Preservation said. “I rode them much, in the past. It’s too hard to see what is actually likely, and what is just a fragile . . . fragile, distant maybe. . . .”
M:SH, Chapter 3-3, Kindle Locs. 1028 – 1055 (bold added).
Brandon confirms Vessels “don't know the future exactly.” Shards vary in their foresight abilities. I tie Shard differences to their “fundamental law/primal force.” Preservation (stasis) foresees better than Ruin (entropy). Honor (bonds) says Cultivation foresees better than him. Renarin discovers Voidbinding’s limits when Dalinar rebuffs Odium despite Renarin’s contrary visions.
Brandon believes cosmere future time is uncertain, a matter of possibility. If time, and hence future time, exists only as the construct of the collective sapient mind, what makes the future predictable at all? I’ll trot out some thoughts with no conclusions:
1. Brute Force Method. Maybe Vessels predict the future by trying to read the whole set of cosmere Connections – all the cosmere’s perceived information. Kelsier says you must “sort through” the SR’s “horrible overload of information and sensation.” Vessels might seek the sapient population’s collective sense of the future’s direction and weigh its probability against the full information Connections hold. This method resembles how the psycho-historian Hari Seldon foresees events in Isaac Asimov’s Foundation Trilogy. Taravangian seems to have written the Diagram with the brute-force method.
2. Algorithm Method. Each Vessel might use a Shard-specific algorithm to streamline their Connection data analysis. Maybe Fortune has its own streamlining algorithm when magic users tap that Spiritual attribute. These algorithms may cull and organize Connection data to make the future more comprehensible.
3. “Time Ribbons” Method. Maybe Adonalsium built Leras’ “ribbons of the future” into the cosmere’s operating system. Vessels and/or magic users can peer into these ribbons to foresee. (FWIW, Leras likes colorful language, as his Realmic “light” metaphor shows (also in M:SH).)
All or none of these ideas might be “right-tracked.” They are not mutually exclusive. I’m sure there are other explanations. Foresight’s mechanics elude me.
Conclusion
My theory again: Spiritual Realm Connections reflect sentient life’s perceptions and not the cosmere’s underlying reality. Human metaphors like space and time are “irrelevant” in the Spiritual Realm but explain the Physical Realm in terms humans understand.
As the Spiritual aspect’s programming code, Connections IMO execute sentient life’s programming commands. These include everything from a chasmfiend Connecting “food” with humans but not rocks, to Kaladin’s re-bonding his Connection to gravity. Connections paint Physical Realm reality to form the sensory tapestry sentient life experiences – the cosmere version of the Matrix.
SPOILER: Postscript for @Calderis
SpoilerForgive my persistence, Cal, but I cannot let your last comment about my theory on Shard behavior stand unanswered. Here’s what you said:
On 4/27/2019 at 5:32 PM, Calderis said:As to you thread, as far as the" facts" go, I did address them. I said we don't know enough. I have nothing more to add.
You think ten years of text and WoBs that fully explain three Shards’ behaviors is not enough to base a theory on? These facts apply to one-third of the Shards with known magic systems!
Cal, I’m beginning to think if the proverbial tree in the forest fell on your head, you still wouldn’t believe it – unless you yourself wielded the axe. You defend Spool’s theory, which cites neither text nor WoB for its conclusions, because you had a hand in it. Yet you dismiss my well-supported theory as “speculation” without a thought on its merits. Hmmm...
My invitation for your substantive comments stands. I do value your input. For your convenience, I quote the Shard theory’s “summary” post. I edited this post’s version slightly and added the last quote box. You should look at the “full theory” post for quotes and analysis:
Quote1. Shards combine personality and fundamental law/primal force.
2. Brandon TELLS us Ruin’s, Preservation’s, and Honor’s fundamental laws are entropy, stasis, and bonds, respectively.
3. Brandon SHOWS us how Honor grants his magic through bonds each time a Surgebinder uses his Honor-centric powers.
4. Brandon twice says the only difference between Shards is “the WAY they obtain their magic [capitalization in original],” confirmed a third time by the 2017 “Honor bonds” WoB.
5. These three Shards’ magic systems show us that a magic user’s Intended (capital “I”) performance of an act of entropy, stasis, or bonding “obtains” that Shard’s “magic.”
From these facts, I THEORIZE Shards obtain their magic through their Connection to that fundamental law/primal force:
QuoteThe Vessels are not [infinite], even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm....
Source (bold added).
This fact-based theory explains the behavior of one-third of the known Shards. (I exclude Ambition who has no known magic system.)
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Spool, I’m really glad your theory addresses cosmere thermodynamics. To me, thermodynamics is the key to understanding how the cosmere works.
Time’s Role in Your Theory
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:I'm going to need you to expand on where this question is coming from since time isn't a part of my theory. I'm unsure what you're really asking with regards to the theory.
Your theory assumes Background Investiture flows through the Framework over time (bold added):
On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:However, any investiture which fill the Framework is temporary, returning instantaneously to rejoin the greater Background Investiture and replaced at the same time. In other words, you can consider the Manifestation to be a flowing stream of investiture shaped by the Framework....
As I said earlier, investiture forms the Manifestation and is constantly getting replaced as the investiture forming it at one point in time is returned to the Background Investiture in the next instance. Replace is a specifically chosen term...
But the SR lacks sequential time and location. In Brandon’s words,
QuoteOn the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one.
Source (bold added).
SR Investiture cannot “flow” if time and space are one, ever-present and location-less. “Flow” requires points A and B in time and/or space. IMO, your theory needs to deal with the SR’s timeless nature.
Your Questions
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:I don't understand what you're ask in the second and third question, what conversion are you talking about?
My second and third questions go to the nature and composition of Background Investiture. I address these in the next two sections. Do magic users power their magic with Background Investiture or some other SR Investiture? I refer to Feruchemical conversions of attributes into Investiture and back again.
Composition of SR Investiture
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:I imagine it more as a mess of investiture from all the shards. A giant homogeneous slurry of investiture from all the shards.
Why do you think this? Many Investitures have opposing effects. SR Investiture-homogenization might be cosmere catastrophic. Brandon mentions Devotion and Dominion’s dangerous interactions; and though Harmony-harnessed, Ruin and Preservation’s forces naturally oppose each other. Even if we assume the PR effects of SR Investiture are mixed together, that doesn’t mean the SR Investitures themselves are mixed.
How Investiture Manifests in the Spiritual Realm
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:Which pool are you talking about with regards to magic users?
Magic users access SR Investiture when they perform magic:
QuoteSo, almost every magic in the Cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it ... because that concept is how I’m dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate.
Investiture exists in the SR in some shape or form even though “time and space are compounded in one” there. I metaphorically describe the Investiture repository as a “pool.” Maybe instead the SR is a hyper-dense Investiture-filled point that literally compounds time, space, and Investiture into one.
Lopen Example
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:Is there a question here?
No. I just thought Lopen might fall within your general rule if his Framework never changes.
How Metalminds Trap Background Investiture
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:I haven't really put any thought into this since it's not actually what the theory is dealing with. I imagine that it's being pulled through whatever spiritual components of the feruchemist allow them to do this.
You visualize Background Investiture as a “homogenous slurry” of Shard Investiture. Wouldn’t Feruchemy need Ruin and Preservation’s Investiture to activate the metalmind? As Background Investiture passes through their Frameworks, how does the Feruchemist and/or the metalmind pick out only Ruin and Preservation to power the Feruchemical conversions?
FWIW, my model envisions the Feruchemist Intending (capital “I”) an act of entropy when they store their attributes and an act of stasis when they return their body to its preexisting condition (the status quo). These Intended acts summon Ruin and Preservation’s Investiture through the metalmind’s metal Focus to power the Feruchemical conversions. This model might work for your theory too and avoid a problem I highlight next.
How Background Investiture Fuels Feruchemy
On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:Under the Framework and Manifestation model part of the investiture relating to the specific attributes is usurped instead of being part of the Manifestation proper and is diverted into the metalmind where it is trapped rather than returning to the greater Background Investiture collective as is normal. When a feruchemists taps a metalmind the investiture in it adds itself to their Manifestation then returns to the Background Investiture collective. In this sense feruchemy is properly End-Neutral as it is taking investiture that would be normally part of the feruchemist and is storing it elsewhere then tapping it for use at a later point, as is described. Investiture has been conserved once more and the Cosmere has been saved.
If I understand you correctly, during the metalmind storage period some Background Investiture diverts to the metalmind. This happens because the Feruchemist’s attribute-to-Investiture conversion alters their Manifestation. In effect, the Feruchemist powers the Feruchemical conversion with some of the Background Investiture that would otherwise create its pre-conversion Manifestation: “part of the investiture relating to the specific attributes is usurped instead of being part of the Manifestation proper and is diverted into the metalmind where it is trapped.”
But doesn’t the stored Investiture equate to all the attributes placed in the metalmind? Otherwise, on re-conversion the Feruchemist loses some part of themselves. How then is any Investiture “usurped” to power the conversion? Without added SR Investiture (a “facilitating power”), your theory may not solve the thermodynamic problem. (You might look at my post on magic system fuel to see my views on Feruchemy’s thermodynamics.) Maybe I’m just missing something here.
End-Positive Magic Systems
On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:It doesn't [affect end-positive systems]... I don't really know what you're looking for here. It describes a means of how end-positive magic systems might affect the user, but nothing about how the investiture is acquired. Frankly I don't really care for the usage of the End-X classification anyways outside of the Metallic Arts they were designed for so I don't really have anything to say in this regards.
Brandon says SR Investiture powers almost all magic systems regardless of classification. Is flowing, homogenized Background Investiture the power’s source or does some other SR Investiture produce magic system power?
Conclusion
You present an interesting theory that explains some thermodynamic issues and other phenomena. I upvoted you for the topic and your analysis of it. IMO, a theory should integrate with other cosmere “facts” and theories. My questions try to flush these out and explore them. If your model can answer such questions, it becomes that much stronger. And if you have to refine it a bit to make the theory work better, well, welcome to a club with many members.
Postscript
I see Cal’s imprint on your theory. I wonder if he will look again at the facts that underlie my “Shard differences” theory instead of distracting himself with questions about “appropriate” speculation. The text and WoBs I cite explain the behavior of one-third of the known Shards without resort to speculation. I invited him in that post to focus only on the theory’s facts. He hasn’t responded. @Calderis, are you listening?
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Nice job, Spool! You put a lot of thought into this, and it shows! Before commenting, I want to make sure I understand your theory.
You believe cosmere “Background Investiture” (SR Investiture) constantly flows through a person/object’s “Framework” (its ideal state) over time. Background Investiture updates the instantaneously previous Background Investiture-filled Framework. Each moment in time, Background Investiture creates a person/object’s three-Realm “Manifestation.” Background Investiture can change the person/object’s Framework over time to accord it with the Manifestation – hardened perception can become reality. Magical intervention can also change a Framework and immediately update the Manifestation. The constant Background Investiture flow ensures, among other things, compliance with cosmere thermodynamics and explains your listed phenomena.
Do I have that right? If so, I have some questions you might want to think about.
1. Your theory is a plausible metaphor to explain varied Cosmere phenomena. My biggest question: How can SR Investiture “flow” through time when all futures are probabilistically and simultaneously “present” in the SR and time itself has no “flow”?
2. Is Background Investiture raw SR Investiture undifferentiated by Shard?
3. We know there’s a pool of SR Investiture magic users draw on. Is this the same pool that flows through Frameworks as Background Investiture?
4. I’m unclear if a Framework is a fourth thermodynamic state – the "imperceptible" blueprint for Investiture itself – or is it also made from SR Investiture? FWIW, Brandon says Spiritual aspects are Connections imprinted on Investiture.
4. On your “exception”:
On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:An exception to the rule that the Framework conforms to the Manifestation, it is possible for an entity to induce or maintain a discrepancy between their Manifestation and their Framework. The cognitive component of the Framework can be influenced by extremely strong cognitive perception to create or maintain those discrepancies. Examples of this can be seen Lopen's arm which was missing for a long time yet still could regrow, or a trans person able to using healing to transition themselves.
As I see it, despite their PR Manifestations, (1) Lopen kept his pre-injury Framework, and (2) the trans person’s self-perception changed their Framework. Investiture in both cases enabled them to Manifest their self-perception fully.
5. Mechanically, how does a metalmind trap Background Investiture? Is Background Investiture Focused into Ruin/Preservation’s Investiture to make the Feruchemical gene or metalmind work? If so, how?
6. If metalminds trap Background Investiture, does the Investiture continue to accumulate until used? What if all the trapped Background Investiture gets used before a Feruchemical conversion completes? Does the conversion stop part-way through?
7. How does your theory affect end-positive magic systems, if at all?
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Cal, I don’t begrudge your hesitance to speculate, though IMO you apply it selectively – (cough) Avatars. But you’ve never addressed the substance of my FACT-BASED theory. Unlike some things we quibble about, I think THIS THEORY IS IMPORTANT to understanding Shard nature and behavior. Please review it on its merits. If I didn’t value your input, I wouldn’t ask.
Let me summarize the KNOWN FACTS again:
1. Shards combine personality and fundamental law/primal force.
2. Brandon TELLS us Ruin’s, Preservation’s, and Honor’s fundamental laws are entropy, stasis, and bonds, respectively.
3. Brandon SHOWS us how Honor grants his magic through bonds each time a Surgebinder uses his Honor-centric powers.
4. Brandon twice says the only difference between Shards is “the WAY they obtain their magic [capitalization in original],” confirmed a third time by the 2017 “Honor bonds” WoB.
5. These three Shards’ magic systems show us that a magic user’s Intended (capital “I”) performance of an act of entropy, stasis, or bonding summons that Shard’s Investiture.
From these facts, I THEORIZE Shards obtain their magic through their fundamental law/primal force. This fact-based theory explains the behavior of one-third of the known Shards. (I exclude Ambition who has no known magic system.)
I do speculate about the other six known Shards (but not Ambition) and always say so. (Look, for example, at this post.) I extrapolate the theory to these Shards based on text and WoBs about their magic systems. I associate Endowment with EMR, for example, because Awakening drains “color” – reflections of visible light, a form of EMR. Regardless, if my guesses about these Shards’ fundamental laws/primal forces turn out wrong, the theory would remain valid based solely on the known facts.
On 4/18/2019 at 0:27 PM, Calderis said:You believe that Odium inherently "Breaks Connections." with the way I understand things, I don't see how he would be able to act on anything at all if that were the case.
You believe that what the Fused are doing is Voidbinding. I, adamantly, do not.
I do believe Odium inherently breaks Connections. My previous post cites lots of text evidence for my belief. As I say in the earlier post, OB’s moral polarity, the novel’s conflict, is Unity (bonding) vs. Division (breaking). OB’s first chapter is entitled “Broken and Divided.” Breaking Connections is how Hate translates into cosmere force.
On Voidbinding: IMO the three referenced WoBs show Brandon classifies magic systems by how they give magic to mortals, not what magical abilities they grant. The 2017 “Honor bonds” WoB shows the Nahel bond defines Surgebinding. Surgebinding’s transformative magic comes from Cultivation, but the magic system is still Surgebinding. Reason: Only Surgebinders get their magic through Honor’s Nahel bond.
Glys may give Renarin future sight, nominally a Voidbinding ability, but Renarin is still Surgebinding. He too gets his magic through the Nahel bond. This is no different than Lift, Jasnah, and Shallan using Cultivation’s transformative abilities while Surgebinding.
Breaking Connections to access Odium’s Investiture should “be able to act on anything” (or mostly anything). Brandon describes how this works in the 2008 WoB:
QuoteAs a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy.
Certain abilities are more naturally Voidbinding (like future sight), and other abilities are more naturally Surgebinding (like flying). But any Shard can theoretically grant any ability.
Breaking a Connection to use an ability IMO doesn’t permanently break the Connection. Windrunners make multiple lashings (bonds), but when they release their lashings, normal reality and physics kick in. I believe the same is true of Voidbinders. They can allow their Connection to gravity (for example) to reassert itself in whole or part (up to one-G).
Glys IMO allows Renarin to break his Connection to time. This allows Renarin to see the Spiritual Realm’s multiple future possibilities, some of which (Renarin now knows) can be wrong.
On 4/18/2019 at 0:27 PM, Calderis said:WoBs are our best resource despite the inconsistencies... And inferences within Brandon's systems are something I actively use for speculation... I just am not going to make assumptions on things that Brandon may or may not know that reach outside of his creations.
Nor do I make such assumptions. I know you and others often tar my theories as unfounded, but it’s untrue. You cannot point to a single of my theories that isn’t based on substantial text and WoB evidence. Even my speculations (which I always identify as such) stem from Brandon’s words. If I look outside Brandon’s words – as I do with scientific principles like quantum physics or resonance – it is only to understand his use of those principles. As a reminder, I looked at more than fifty WoBs where Brandon uses the term resonance before concluding he meant the technical meaning in the one about Allomancy’s Focus. That’s not assumption; that’s hard analytical work.
On 4/18/2019 at 0:27 PM, Calderis said:Edit: to be clear I mean no offense by this. I make my own assumptions about the way things function and both expect to be called out on them, and do not expect anyone to agree with me on them.
We all have different methods, we're all going to reach a variety of conclusions, and we're all going to decide for ourselves how thing work right up until they are confirmed or debunked that fine.
There's nothing wrong with the way you do things, and that not what I'm trying to say. I'm just not comfortable doing the same, and I find it hard to credit things we have no way to verify without further WoBs or in book text for support.
1. I take no offense and hope my words give you none.
2. You should NOT “expect to be called out on” your assumptions. You should state them, and we can assess their reasonableness. But there’s nothing wrong with pre-conceived notions per se. Whether an assumption proves valid partly depends on how well the resulting theory explains known facts.
3. Different conclusions are understandable; different methods to reach those conclusions are not, at least when seeking cosmere “truth.” Your stated methods seem the same as mine, you just don’t take them as far as I do. I ask a lot of “why” and “how” questions. They lead me to answers that logically flow from the known facts, and I’m unafraid to state those answers. A theory’s best proof is how well it integrates our knowledge to explain a wide array of phenomena. My theory, I believe, fully explains Shards and their magic systems, even if some details about particular Shards may be off.
4. The real pitfall, I think, is how willing we are to modify our views in the face of contrary information. I’ve refined my theories many times based on new (to me) information. Many here are locked into their paradigms and never waver. I can launch into social commentary about this, but… Reflexive disagreement seems endemic to life and the Forum.
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Autonomy and Their Avatars: The Fractal Shard?
in Cosmere Discussion
Posted · Edited by Confused
Thanks, everyone, for your comments!
In the OP.
Me too. What specific questions do you have? You first have to accept that Shards magically differ only in how they give access to Investiture before the fractal theory makes sense.
Here's the critical part of this WoB (bold added) that I think talks about Avatar self-awareness:
The question’s context is the definition of Splinters and how that definition applies to Avatars. My reasoning:
1. Splinters are generally thought of as self-aware gobs of Investiture. Self-awareness minimally means sentience, not necessarily sapience. IMO, free-floating Investiture gobs that lack all awareness are not Splinters under any definition.
2. Brandon hedges on whether all Avatars are Splinters because some “aren't necessarily aware.” “Some would say that counts as Splinters” because “Bavadin always is” aware even if the Avatar isn’t.
3. Because Bavadin supplies awareness to the non-aware Avatars, I conclude Bavadin personally directs those Avatars’ Investiture. This WoB describes the “standard” Avatars that have their own minds. The above-quoted WoB makes me think the “non-standard” ones lack minds, and Bavadin directs them.
FWIW, I first tried out the idea that Bavadin retains control over Avatars on Discord. Consensus there (at the time) agreed with me. @Eternal Khol also shares this idea.
If the above-quoted WoB didn’t arise in the context of Splinter definition, I might agree with you. But that context shows me Brandon really did mean self-awareness. If you are correct and some self-aware Avatars just don’t know they belong to a larger whole, all Avatars would clearly be Splinters. There’d be no question about terminology if they’re all self-aware. It’s the fact they are NOT all self-aware that raises the question.
Ah! RAFO! Read the OP, where I describe Avatar creation in detail. I think Avatars are NOT distinct from Autonomy. I believe they are all smaller-scaled versions of Autonomy, and yet parts of the greater whole. That is the definition of fractals. Because Avatars are part of Autonomy’s whole, I think even sapient Avatars are subject to Autonomy’s control. IMO, Avatars’ minds all Connect to Bavadin, and she can overrule whatever Avatars decide. Think of a monarch and its subjects.
ASIDE: Brandon wanted “internal, natural contrast” to be a part of spren. I think he did the same with Autonomy. The name “Autonomy” is magically apt because each fractal is a self-contained, autonomous unit. Yet Bavadin’s denial of full autonomy to the Avatars to me makes the name metaphorically funny.
I think Avatar creation requires two things: fractals and water. Fractals are Autonomy’s “primal force,” the way Autonomy gives access to Investiture. Like metal for Preservation, water IMO is the “pathway” Autonomy’s Investiture takes as it moves from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical Realm.
You may think that sounds weird and convoluted, but take a look at the evidence I present in the OP. EVERY known planet where Autonomy resides or has an Avatar or has a “gathering of Investiture” is ocean with a single large land mass: Taldain, First of the Sun, and Roshar. Brandon says fractal geometry principles built Roshar’s pangaea. I believe the same principles built the other planets’ land masses.
Autonomy’s magic systems all maintain Cognitive bonds through water. Sand Mastery relies on water to forge and maintain a Sand Master’s Cognitive bond with microflora. The Investiture in Patji’s Eye flows undiluted into the surrounding seas, where the most dangerous Cognitive predators live. The island’s “dense humidity” IMO creates weaker Cognitive bonds between land predators and prey than sea water. Dusk says Patji’s land predators are relatively weaker than the surrounding sea predators.
All this doesn’t prove the role of fractals and water in Autonomy’s magic, but I find it pretty darn persuasive.