Confused

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Confused last won the day on February 22 2014

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  1. Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested non-Shards in the cosmere. He grows more Invested each time he “destroys evil.” My best guess is this happens because Nightblood implements the cosmere’s Second Law of Thermodynamics. He is an entropy-creation machine that seeks thermodynamic equilibrium. Brandon says Nightblood holds Ruin’s Investiture. I think Nightblood uses Ruin to execute his “destroy evil” command. Ruin’s “primal force” is entropy. I don’t know what role if any Ruin had at Nightblood’s creation or why Nightblood would be so difficult to replicate. We do know Nightblood destroys in all three Realms, the ultimate act of entropy. I speculate Nightblood’s consumed Investiture increases his internal entropy. This Investiture seems to come from his victims’ Spiritual aspects. Spiritual aspects hold a person’s Connections, including (says Kelsier in M:SH Part Three-3) a Connection to “God,” that person’s native Shard. The consumed Investiture should thus be raw, stripped of all its Connections. In the cosmere, nothing is more disordered or has higher entropy than “dangerous” raw Investiture. That may be why Nightblood leaks smoke – the gaseous state is the most disordered. I think Nightblood ramps up his destruction and stops when he does to achieve thermodynamic equilibrium: “In thermodynamic equilibrium there are no net...flows of matter or of energy [or Investiture] between systems.” Nightblood sheathed is a closed system. When his wielder draws him, Nightblood is exposed to the outside environment, a different system. That environment is more ordered and has lower entropy. Nightblood acts to increase his environment’s entropy to bring his internal entropy into balance with it. His command to destroy evil accomplishes that. As Nightblood consumes his victims’ raw Investiture, his internal entropy increases. I think this causes him to accelerate his destruction. Eventually Nightblood either reaches thermodynamic equilibrium or his wielder sheathes him. When he stops killing, he retains the unused raw Investiture: “In all processes that occur...the total entropy of the system and its surroundings increases and the process is irreversible in the thermodynamic sense.” I believe this is why Nightblood grows in power over time. Not having studied science in fifty years, I’m probably wrong on all this. But I can’t think of another reason, and Brandon does love his thermodynamics. What do you cosmere scientists think?
  2. @Karger, I’m no more comfortable with the Stormfather’s explanation than the Eila Stele’s. The Stormfather IMO is an untrustworthy witness. He acknowledges this himself: I have questions the Stormfather’s memory doesn’t answer: Why would all non-Skybreaker “Radiants abandon their vows for that reason”? Wouldn’t a few think themselves incapable of such destruction? Loving/Healing Edgedancers don’t seem like destroyers. But even Edgedancers might see the honor in abandoning their vows after Melishi “killed” the Sibling and ended Singer transformations. Why would the Skybreakers NOT break their vows if fear of Roshar’s destruction is the reason? The Stormfather explains Honor’s role in the Recreance to Dalinar: Honor convinced Radiants they needed to fight to protect humans despite the human land grab. But not one Radiant convinced themselves or others this was still the case? And if a dying Honor “raved,” would every Radiant have trusted his word? Might some think Roshar needed the Radiants even more with Honor dying? The Stormfather’s explanations just don’t add up for me. What he says may be true, but not as justification for the Recreance and a mass oath breaking that immediately follows the Sibling’s slumber. I think something more happened to cause the Recreants to kill their spren, especially given the timing.
  3. @CrazyRioter and @RShara neatly destroyed my “Why the Sibling Slumbers” theory, but I upvoted their posts for setting me on the proper course-correction. WARNING: THIS “THEORY” CONTAINS INFORMED SPECULATION AND GUESSES. Summary Note the homophone in the OP’s title. The idea the name “Recreance” began as an epithet for the faithless, cowardly Knights Radiant - “the Recreants” - goes back at least to this 2012 post and others have periodically raised it. I buy this idea. I think the Radiants believed they acted in the only way they could. Melishi’s plan enslaved the Singers and stopped their transformations. When the Radiants learned this, nine of the orders concluded honor demands “a spren for a spren.” If Singers couldn’t bond spren and transform, Radiants wouldn’t bond spren either. Their own spren may even have agreed. Only the Skybreakers demurred, thinking the result “just.” Here’s the sequence of events that I think may have brought the Radiants down: False Desolation Begins – BAM Connects Voidlight to Singers by forging a Connection to the Sibling. Radiants Abandon Urithiru – Voidlight flowing through them causes the Sibling to “withdraw.” Strike Team Executes Melishi’s Plan – Radiants “kill” Sibling to cut BAM’s Connection to Singers. Recreance – Radiants discover what Melishi did and break their oaths. Only Skybreakers think this “just.” Gem Archives I think these are the most relevant gem archives: Sibling Personifies Gemheart Growth Process I think Roshar’s three great spren personify essential features of the Singer transformational life cycle: spren, gemhearts and the highstorm. IMO, these are the Eila Stele’s “spren, stone, and wind.” Gemheart Investiture leaks into the Physical Realm like atium. I think the Sibling personifies this process. Like the Stormfather distributes Stormlight, maybe the Sibling distributes gemheart Investiture. This Investiture grows gemhearts. The Sibling’s Withdrawal With no Everstorm, Voidlight during the False Desolation must have infused Singer gemhearts directly. BAM “Connected with the parsh people,” not just those with forms of power. To grow gemhearts, the Sibling must Connect to them. I speculate BAM used the Sibling’s Connections as her conduit for Voidlight infusion. I think this is when the Sibling began to withdraw. The Sibling metaphorically gagged on Voidlight. The Sibling’s Slumber Voidlight may have caused the Sibling’s withdrawal before Melishi, but the Stormfather blames humans for the Sibling’s slumber. A Radiant strike team executed Melishi’s plan. Whatever happened stopped Singer transformations. Parshmen no longer bonded spren. I speculate the Radiant strike team cut BAM’s Connection to Singer gemhearts by somehow cutting the Sibling’s Connection to Singer gemhearts. The sudden break in Connection shocked the Sibling into coma – “slumber.” (FWIW, Syl also uses the term "asleep" to describe her condition after her first Radiant died.) Gemheart Investiture still flows into gemhearts but it doesn’t seem to aid Singer transformation. The Recreants Maybe Singer enslavement is the true “wicked thing of eminence” that turns Radiants into Recreants. The Skybreakers felt the Sibling’s consciousness loss “just” payment to end the False Desolation. That order kept its oaths. Maybe the other nine orders felt Singer enslavement warranted a greater penalty. If Singers could not bond spren, neither would Radiants. These nine orders gave up their bond mates – perhaps in agreement with them – because they felt it was the honorable thing to do. I’ve never been comfortable with the Eila Stele’s Recreance explanation. It was translated by Taravangian’s ardents in Kharbranth and Jah Keved and served his political purposes. Its explanation to me doesn’t justify everyone but the Skybreakers breaking their oaths. This explanation does. The Knights Radiant fell in universal disgrace, forever tarnished as oath breakers. But I believe these Recreants did what they thought honor required of them.
  4. Summary I theorize the Sibling personifies some Singer idea related to the Singer transformational life cycle. Melishi’s enslavement of Singers deprived them of their ability to think and transform. Singers stopped having the idea they personified as the Sibling. This was about 2,000 years ago at the end of the False Desolation. IMO, humans did not personify the Sibling’s idea like they personified the ideas perceived as the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. With no culture personifying the Sibling, their decline began and they slipped into slumber. Analysis One of OB’s major themes is cultural imperialism. Former Ashynites invaded Roshar and sought to eradicate Singers and their culture. Even Everstorm-healed Singers retain their human masters’ culture. I think Brandon uses the metaphor of the Sibling’s slumber to represent human cultural oppression of the Singers. Spren personify perceived ideas. I think Roshar’s three great spren personify essential features of the native transformational life cycle: spren, gemhearts and the highstorm. IMO, these are the Eila Stele’s “spren, stone, and wind.” Maybe the Sibling personifies something other than gemhearts, but the Sibling must personify some idea. Singer culture, not human culture, first personified the great spren. Eshonai says the Rider of Storms was the listener’s friend before he became the human’s Stormfather. (WoR, Interlude I-5, Kindle pp. 395-396.) Maybe the Rider became the Stormfather when it merged with Tanavast’s Cognitive shadow. If the Old Magic precedes spren bonding, then the Nightwatcher also likely precedes the human invasion. I theorize humans didn’t stamp their culture on the Sibling like they did with the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. That makes sense if the Sibling personifies gemhearts. Humans don’t have them. Whatever the Sibling personifies seems to arise solely from Singer culture. And Melishi stole that culture from them: “’I don’t have traditions,’ Sah said [to Kal]. ‘Or society...’” (OB, Chapter 20, Kindle, p. 217.) Stripped of their ability to think and transform, Singers stopped personifying any ideas – and certainly those related to transformation. I believe Melishi’s actions began the Sibling’s “withdrawal” and decline: Just as Tinkerbell almost died when people stopped believing in fairies, I think the Sibling began its decline when Singers stopped personifying them. With Brandon hinting we’ll see the Sibling soon, I suspect the healed Singers are about to awaken the Sibling.
  5. I assume everyone here and on @TheFoxQR's thread knows “intent” is a non-canonical term. Its meaning seems to depend on who uses it. It also conflicts with the term “Intent (capital “I”), which is a canonical term that refers to the deliberate use of magic. Jofwu advocates for the terms “nature” and “expression” to describe Shard behavior. “Nature” refers to the Vessel-independent behaviors, and “expression” refers to Vessel-dependent behaviors. I’m okay with that classification, but I prefer Brandon’s words: “primal force/fundamental law” and “personality.” If “intent” has magical meaning, I believe it’s found in the Shard’s primal force, not the Vessel’s personality. “Primal force” IMO determines how a magic user accesses a Shard’s Investiture. The Vessel’s personality determines how it uses the Investiture it accesses. I’m sure everyone is sick of hearing from me about this stuff, and I don’t think I’ve persuaded a single one of you – yet. (Disappointing, but life moves on.) Here I just want to publicize the fact that “intent” has no commonly held meaning. Other terms may better describe what Shard “intent” theorists mean.
  6. You misread me. I too would be surprised if other Shard Investitures aren’t quantizable. But that’s not the test. The test is how magic users access a Shard’s Investiture. AFAIK, Endowment is the only one of the known Shards whose magic users access Investiture through quanta. Bonds as you point out are not unique to Honor, but only Honor’s magic users access Investiture through bonds. Entropy is not unique to Ruin, but only Ruin’s magic users access Investiture through entropy. Stasis is not unique to Preservation, but only Preservation’s magic users access Investiture through stasis. I believe this is what Brandon means when he says (bold added), “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” and “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” This 2017 WoB shows what those WoBs mean in practice and eliminates any potential ambiguity from the earlier WoBs (IMO). My only point about fabrials is they are machines that manipulate cosmere forces. On Roshar these machines manipulate Surges. On Scadrial they manipulate the Metallic Arts. Maybe they also manipulate some cosmere-wide “soul manifestation” force. Do we really disagree about fabrials’ nature? Okay. I misread you. Here's my understanding of emotions. You are born. You emotionally attach to your mother, father, and other family members. Later you emotionally attach to lovers, friends, and acquaintances. You feel different emotions at different times toward each of them. IMO, each new feeling metaphorically etches a new Connection or changes an existing Connection on your Spiritual aspect’s raw Investiture. * * * * * It's always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you, Argent! Please look again at my main idea about the source of Shard behaviors. Even now, 18 months after the "primal force" WoB, there are two active Forum threads about Shard "intents" that don't even mention that important WoB. Regards!
  7. SUMMARY BUSINESS PLAN (As Founder Brandon Sanderson Predicts Endowment Wants) Presented to the Nalthis Breath Council by the Confused Consulting Group Introduction Thank you, Nalthis Breath Council (NBC), for this opportunity to present to you CCG’s ideas on how best to monetize Breaths. Nalthians are wise to have created this elected council to unify their interests in an organized Breath Market. The Breath market now is highly fragmented and dis-integrated. CCG believes all Nalthians will benefit from the enhanced value an organized market will bring them. Our proposed Business Plan focuses on the cosmere-wide sale of Breaths. We think now is the time to implement this plan while most Breaths remain on Nalthis. Our advice is to make NBC the sole cosmere source for buying and selling Breaths – a real-world monopolistic cartel like “earth’s OPEC.” (“OPEC” is a group mentioned in the famous fantasy novel Twentieth Century Earth). This Business Plan shows how NBC can accomplish that goal. Breath Benefits That Affect Value Breaths may be the cosmere’s most valuable freely-transferable asset – same-sized quanta of Endowment’s Investiture. Each Breath enhances its holder’s lifeforce. Breaths come only from Nalthis but can be transferred to anyone anywhere. New supply is limited to Nalthian births. Nalthians must give their Breaths willingly. That lessens the risk of Breath theft. Breaths enable their holder to animate (Awaken) objects. 2,000 Breaths make their holder functionally immortal. 50,000 Breaths make their holder the equivalent of a Hallendren God King. NBC Breath Exchange We recommend you form the NBC Breath Exchange to let the market price Breaths rather than set an arbitrary price. The Exchange should be the sole cosmere market for Breaths. The NBC should require buyers and sellers to conduct all Breath transfers through the Exchange. The NBC may choose to exempt intra-family transfers, inheritances, and at-the-moment-of-death transfers. NBC should ban all private Breath sales that fall outside these exemptions. The Breath Black Market To ensure the Exchange works as intended, the NBC must take steps to eliminate smuggling and the black market in Breaths. Currently, the Tears of Edgli are the only way to enter Nalthis, but future technologies may change that. We recommend for now NBC monitor visitor traffic through the Tears. Each person must leave Nalthis with the same number of Breaths they held on entry or account for the discrepancy with NBC-certified papers. We recommend you station strong Awakeners at the Tears to count the Breaths and enforce anti-smuggling laws. We urge the NBC to capture the bandit and murderer Vasher and his cohort the former Princess Vivenna of Idris. This notorious pair has eluded all previous efforts to find and restrain them. Together they hold many thousands of Breaths. They are criminals, but our concern is the potential market disruption if they choose to dump their Breaths onto the market. NBC Revenue Streams CCG foresees NBC generating revenue from commissions and other fees on each Breath transfer. CCG anticipates NBC’s efforts will have increased Breath value enough that buyers and sellers won’t mind paying these commissions and fees. Spinoff Business Revenues CCG recommends NBC expand its business model to augment its Breath marketing business and generate substantial additional revenues. Some examples: Breath storage devices. CCG anticipates NBC will hold very large Breath reserves. It may be unfeasible for NBC officials to hold and carry these Breaths personally. These Breaths don’t belong to them in any event. If something unexpectedly happens to an NBC Breath holder, NBC could lose those Breaths. Developing Breath storage technology mitigates this risk. Such technology should allow for multiple NBC officials to retrieve these Breaths, perhaps through an Awakening password created and shared by the person who stores the Breaths. Awakening Training. NBC should sell Awakening training services to Breath purchasers. Breath Financing. As Breaths increase in value, individuals may lack sufficient capital to purchase them. We recommend NBC form the NBC Investment Bank to develop financing options for individual purchases. These options may include purchases on margin, installment contracts, and other payment plans. Security Consulting. NBC has unique expertise it could package and market to Breath holders to ensure Breath safety and security. Exclusive Transportation Rights. NBC should retain the right to transport Breaths to the buyer. While this is a sensible security feature, NBC’s transportation monopoly provides it an additional, independent revenue stream. Other Issues Private Equity Breath Purchases We anticipate promoters will form business entities to consolidate Breath investor capital. These private equity firms could accumulate huge numbers of Breaths. These firms’ buy/sell strategies could adversely affect market efficiencies or otherwise compete with NBC’s financing business. To avoid this, we recommend NBC bar corporate ownership of Breaths or limit the number of Breaths such entities can own. Ethical Issues Some may question the propriety of establishing an organized market in human souls. They may see Breath transfers as immoral, taking part of a human life, or even soul slavery. CCG recommends NBC develop strategies to combat these perceptions including in-school education programs and massive advertising campaigns. The latter might highlight the enormous financial benefits that enhanced Breath values yield to Nalthian society. Legal Issues As the price for Breaths increases, Nalthians may choose to have more children and harvest their Breaths. This will lead to more drabs in society. From their Breath sale, each drab should have enough wealth not to burden society, but the NBC should monitor this situation closely. If necessary, the NBC should enact laws that prescribe the minimum age a person may sell their Breaths; ensure payment benefits the child and not the parent; and otherwise preclude child abuse through Breath deprivation. Effect of Mass Murder, War, and Other Catastrophes Some unscrupulous investors may try to inflate Breath values through the mass murder of Nalthians. The villains Vasher and Vivenna use this tactic with the Awakened sword Nightblood. Terrorist attacks can occur too swiftly to collect the Breaths of the murdered Nalthians. Nightblood reportedly destroys every part of those it kills including their Breaths. War, disease, and natural disasters can also materially reduce the Breath supply. We recommend the NBC maintain a large Breath reserve at all times. If any of these events occur, the NBC can stabilize pricing by putting part of the reserved Breaths back on the market. (In the fantasy novel Twentieth Century Earth, a fictional country called the U.S.A. kept a strategic carbon-based fuel reserve to guard against OPEC disruption of the fuel supply.) Conclusion NBC contacted us when founder Brandon Sanderson concluded Endowment wishes to encourage the growth of the Nalthian Breath market. We believe this NBC Business Plan offers the best means of accomplishing that goal with the least friction to the existing Breath market. CCG designed the NBC Business Plan to maximize NBC revenues. We did so on the assumption NBC will re-distribute the bulk of its operating profits to native Nalthians. Getting buy-in from native Nalthians through this unity of interest is essential for the Plan’s ultimate success.
  8. Excellent analysis, @Blightsong! I like your idea Melishi had other plans for BAM than a gemstone prison. Here are some unsupported, fanciful thoughts to play with. WHAT IF ... 1. Melishi is not a Bondsmith but “Ishi’Elin” – Ishar, the Binder of Gods himself. Ishar’s power during the False Desolation is greater than any Bondsmith because Honor still lives. 2. BAM is not an Unmade but a human who serves as the Sibling’s Bondsmith. Hessi describes BAM as “keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations.” Except for Sja-anat (maybe), none of the Unmade seem “keen” – certainly not keen enough to command armies. This raises doubt BAM is an ancient Unmade. 3. BAM switches sides to help the Singers and leads them in the False Desolation. BAM’s “keenness” makes me question whether BAM led Singers in earlier Desolations (at least 2,500 years before) despite what Hessi says. Maybe? 4. BAM literally sells her soul to Odium to become an Unmade with access to Voidlight. BAM uses her bond with the Sibling to Connect Voidlight to the Singers via their gemhearts. The Fused seem to get Voidlight through their possessed body’s gemheart. But could BAM keep her bond to the Sibling when she’s Unmade, even (hypothetically) with Cultivation’s help? A mixed soul? 5. Melishi/Ishar forcibly bonds the Sibling to himself to cut off Singer access to Voidlight. Ishar’s assault breaks BAM’s bond to the Sibling and pushes the Sibling into “slumber.” Singer gemhearts no longer work, and Singers lose their ability to bond spren and transform. If the Stormfather slumbered, would the highstorms still distribute Stormlight? Idk. 6. Voidlight slips into Ishar before BAM’s bond breaks. It makes him more crazy than torture alone does. Through the Oathpact’s Connection among Heralds, the other Heralds’ insanity intensifies. As Cognitive Shadows made wholly of Honor’s Investiture, Voidlight can’t be good for the Heralds. And poor BAM! What did Ishar do to her, and where is she now? I end with a question about the False Desolation: Even with Voidlight, how do Singers gain forms of power? I presume living Singers did not suddenly drop dead and rise again as Fused. My guess is these were Regal forms of power granted by voidspren, not the power to bind Surges. Even with Voidlight, how do voidspren manifest on Roshar with the Oathpact still in effect? SLA shows how much humans can forget. Singer gemhearts are hidden. Listener Shattered Plains corpses ended eaten or in the chasms. Humans wouldn't even think to look for a gemheart in the listeners. P.S. – Blightsong, when you quote WoBs, could you please include the linked source in the quote box? Thanks!
  9. Roshar is “a created planet” in a system “manufactured for a specific purpose.” I hypothesize Roshar’s purpose requires its three Great spren to grow the planet faster than is normally possible. The Stormfather (nee Rider of Storms) energizes growth with Stormlight. The Nightwatcher manifests growth by using Stormlight to transform spren from their Cognitive to their Physical Realm aspect. The Sibling IMO supports and enhances animal growth through gemhearts. Singers need three things for their transformational life cycle: Stormlight, spren, and a gemheart. I hypothesize each Great spren personifies Singer pre-Shattering perception of these three necessities. The Stormfather and Nightwatcher are the source of Stormlight and spren (IMO). Stormlight enables a spren to enter a gemheart and manifest in the Physical Realm as a Singer form. The spren Connects to the Singer’s Spiritual aspect through the Singer’s gemheart. This Singer mechanic predates the Shattering. Almost all Roshar’s creatures have “some sort of gemheart.” Gemhearts are composed of Investiture leaked into the Physical Realm. Gemhearts allow spren to enhance Greatshells, skyeels, and Rhyshadium. Most Rosharan gemstones are made from gemhearts, but some gemstones occur naturally. I propose the Sibling is the source of gemhearts. IMO, the gemstone-encrusted pillar in Urithiru’s basement IS the Sibling, or at least its Physical Realm manifestation. Renarin tells Navani’s scribes, “They’re not fabrials. They’re a fabrial.” (OB, Chapter 44, Kindle p. 455.) I think Renarin makes two points: (1) the Sibling is non-binary (“they” is singular), and (2) the pillar is the Great spren inside the Urithiru fabrial. Kalami’s team fails “to infuse the gemstone pillar.” (OB, Chapter 44, Kindle p. 454.) The pillar remains inert – “slumbering.” I agree with those who believe the Sibling is the Spren of Stone. I think the Spren of Stone personifies the Rosharan continent after Adonalsium built it through fractal mathematics principles. Sixth of the Dusk Spoiler: I think fractals are Autonomy’s “primal force.” Gemstones are fractals. Brandon says Autonomy’s assigned Investiture sits on Roshar. I believe the Spren of Stone is a potential Autonomy Avatar. Many disagree. If I’m right, it would explain why the Stormfather calls the Sibling “they” and Brandon hints the Sibling is non-binary: Autonomy too is non-binary. It makes sense to me each Great spren personifies a different aspect of the Singer life cycle. Singers first personified the Great spren. It also makes sense that Great spren Investiture comes from three different Shards – and Odium is not one of them. @RShara and others feel Brandon wouldn’t introduce a fourth Shard into SLA, mostly for narrative reasons. Two answers: First, Autonomy may not have an active or on-screen role. That Shard may only become Roshar-relevant later in the cosmere story and maybe never. Second, I feel Brandon does foreshadow Autonomy on Roshar. He specifically mentions Autonomy’s Rosharan Investiture in a WoB about the Patji Avatar. Brandon inserts this tidbit without any context, as if he were glad to drop an obscure breadcrumb. Regardless of the Sibling’s composition, they do seem associated with gemhearts. The fabrial magic system needs both spren and gemstones, plus human design. Fabrials to me are an Autonomy-Cultivation combo system, fronted by the Sibling and Nightwatcher.
  10. “Upset the Balance of the Oathpact” Argent’s last cited WoB probably disproves my OP’s theory, but I don’t buy the alternatives. If Ishar was concerned Radiants would siphon Honor’s power, he would have said so. But his concern was the balance of the Oathpact. A Shard’s Investiture is unimaginably vast. Radiant access to that Investiture wouldn’t even be noticeable. I doubt even Herald access is more than a Nano-drop of the whole. Argent recognizes this problem with his theory. I don’t think diverting Honor’s Investiture to Radiants helps Odium free himself. Ishar’s concern is the Oathpact. Argent correctly points out the Oathpact doesn’t bind Odium. It binds the Fused and voidspren, blocking their Cognitive path into Roshar’s subastral. IMO, freeing the Fused and voidspren from Braize is the first step in Odium’s plan. The Fused and Singers defeating humans is the second. I speculate Odium destroying Roshar is the third and final step. I think Odium’s prison ties to Roshar, not Braize; or at least Roshar is his path out of Braize. Otherwise, there’s no need for Desolations. Odium’s Prison – “Unite Them” HOW Odium’s imprisoned remains the mystery. I keep thinking there’s something in this epigraph: Surges are Rosharans’ perception of the cosmere’s fundamental forces. Calling Surges the “bonds that drive Roshar” to me implies these forces hold Roshar together. Honor is the Shard that makes magic through bonds. Without Honor to regulate the balance of these forces, maybe “things fall apart [and] the center cannot hold”? I feel (without much evidence) that uniting the Surges somehow creates a mutually-supporting superstructure that binds Odium to Roshar. It would take the full binding power of all Roshar’s fundamental forces to pin Odium there. I suspect binding the Surges together will fall on Dalinar, given this foreshadowing: There’s two bits of vague evidence for uniting the Surges. One is this WoK, Chapter 9 Epigraph: Not much, I know. The second bit is Honor’s Double Eye. All the lines meet in the middle where there’s no reason to meet. When you put all the ideals together, representing all the Roshar-perceived fundamental forces, MAYBE you can imprison Odium. Ico’s Fear For convenience, here’s the quote again: Of all the explanations for Ico’s fear, I now side with @ScavellTane's: No Radiant spren is 100% Honor despite what each thinks. Glys highlights the risk Odium will subvert Radiant spren and “take over the magic system.” I also agree with @ZenBossanova that the risked disaster is another Ashyn. Divine Attributes I think there’s some misunderstanding about Divine Attributes. Posters comment here and elsewhere that Attributes are cultural, not mechanical, or are too closely tied to the Vorin perspective of Heralds. I feel these comments overlook Roshar’s unique magical environment. The Attributes ARE cultural. When asked about the lines crisscrossing the Double Eye, Brandon said, But on Roshar, culture MAKES the Divine Attributes mechanical. Of all known planets, only on Roshar does Cognitive Realm perception become Physical Realm reality. Syl confirms Radiant spren personify the Divine Attributes: Radiant spren are an essential Surgebinding mechanic. Through the Nahel bond, a cultural ideal grants a right-minded mortal the power of a god. @Calderis, you say my “Fifth Oath” ideas about the Divine Attributes are too “formulaic”: I think you undervalue your own point that oath expression varies by spren and Radiant. Same-order Radiants won’t have the same journey regardless of common Attributes. To protect, Teft has to overcome his addiction. Kaladin has to overcome his “god complex” that he must (and can) protect everyone. Each Windrunner candidate has their own brokenness to contend with. Same for all Radiants. That doesn’t mean their Attributes differ. Attributes are ideals that IMO mark the journey’s start and end points for each order, not the journey itself. All honorspren seek a Windrunner candidate for whom protecting others is paramount. If their candidate never learns leadership (as subjectively determined by the spren and candidate), that candidate will never achieve the Fifth Oath.
  11. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread. I may as well add to it. 1. Every magic system does indeed use fuel. Thermodynamics requires it. Thermodynamics is the one rule Brandon insists on throughout the cosmere (as best he can). 2. Brandon says “almost every magic” uses Spiritual Realm Investiture for fuel. Even “end-neutral” Feruchemy relies on a “facilitating power” to pay the cost of attribute conversion. Otherwise, Feruchemy would have to cannibalize the Feruchemical gene for its fuel. 3. Hemalurgy too needs fuel. I see spiking as an act of entropy that summons Ruin’s Investiture. The metal spike Focuses the Investiture into the power that transfers sDNA. That Focused power fuels Hemalurgy. If Ruin’s Investiture didn’t fuel Hemalurgy, the spike wouldn’t have to be metal. 4. It’s true Allomancy isn’t “fueled by the metals.” It’s fueled by Preservation’s Investiture. BUT – thermodynamics (IMO) requires some activation energy. I think whatever “burns” metal activates the Allomantic process. Body heat or stomach acid adds energy to cause the metal molecules to vibrate. Molecular vibration signals the Spiritual Realm to Invest the Allomancer with the type of power that metal calls for. Here’s a relevant WoB: 5. The Aviar bond is not similar to a Nahel bond. Aviar magic is an “interaction with magic” system, not a “people with magic” system like Surgebinding. The Aviar bond is more like the Singers’ natural bond with spren, also an “interaction with magic” system. Honor’s bonds are voluntarily entered into between two sapient people. Aviar are sentient birds, not sapient. I suspect the Nahel bond differs from all other cosmere bonds if for no reason than they are Honor’s. Other bonds reflect the Shard that created them. That includes Devotion and Dominion (seons and skaze) and Autonomy (the Aviar).
  12. @Argent's “The Magics of Roshar” topic speculates that the Fifth Oath fully merges Knights Radiant and their spren. Further speculation suggests a Fifth Oath Radiant becomes the equivalent of a Herald with Honorblade who can pull Investiture directly from the Spiritual Realm. I generally agree with this speculation. @Jofwu on that thread asks this question: The answer may lie in what Nale tells Szeth: Nale says the Oathpact is “balanced.” I read him to mean there’s only one Herald per divine attribute. Fifth Oath Radiants could upset that balance and weaken the Oathpact. The “measures we took” seems a reference to Taln. Ishar fears Fifth Oath Radiants might somehow disable Taln’s Desolation defense. While Honor lived, he could decline to accept Radiant Fifth Oaths. The Stormfather, who replaced Honor, has yet to decline any oath. Nale kills incipient Radiants to ensure they never rival Heralds. Ishar’s threatening letter to Dalinar fits this concern. Ishar doesn’t want a rival Bondsmith wielding the “power of Connection.” Crazy is as crazy does.
  13. It’s been more than five years since I wrote about the difference between Radiants’ primary and secondary divine attributes. I concluded then that spren of an order are attracted to humans who exhibit that order’s primary attribute. I theorized the spren bond leads the Radiants to their secondary attribute but didn’t go into detail. A few days ago, in a very long post on many topics, I wrote about the impact of oaths on Radiant organization. I opined the Radiant’s Fifth Oath means they achieved their secondary attribute. That’s when they fully merge with their spren. This post puts more flesh on that conclusion. Here’s the list of each order’s primary and secondary divine attributes: Order Primary Attribute Secondary Attribute Windrunners Protecting Leading Skybreakers Just Confident Dustbringers Brave Obedient Edgedancers Loving Healing Truthwatchers Learned Giving Lightweavers Creative Honest Elsecallers Wise Careful Willshapers Resolute Builder Stonewards Dependable Resourceful Bondsmiths Pious Guiding The secondary attribute seems a more outward-looking, “uniting” version of the primary attribute. The primary attribute is about the Radiant. The secondary attribute is about how the Radiant should act toward others. It’s like the difference between first person (me) and second person (you). Windrunners better protect when they lead others. Skybreakers seem more just when they’re confident in their judgment. Dustbringer bravery (and hotheadedness) better serves when they’re obedient. Edgedancer love finds meaning in healing. Truthwatcher learning has meaning when given to share. Lightweaver creativity requires self- and artistic honesty. Elsecallers should temper their wisdom with care. (Jasnah “wisely” concluding to kill the Heralds...) Willshaper resolve makes them foundation builders. Stoneward dependability leads to resourcefulness. (Get the job done no matter what.) Bondsmith piety attracts followers to guide. This framework shows oaths bridge the gap between primary and secondary attributes. Each oath brings the Radiant closer to their secondary attribute. When they achieve it, the Radiant can say the Fifth Oath and merge Spiritual aspects with their spren.
  14. Again, lots of good stuff to sift through! I’ve added headings to make the post easier to skim. @Argent: My goal is to move people away from the Shard = personality model. That model is only half-right. I believe the WoB that says Shards combine “primal force/fundamental law” with personality is Brandon’s single most important utterance about Shards. IMO, the Shard’s primal force explains how cosmere magic works mechanically. Personality explains how the Vessels use their Shard. I focus on Endowment (since you mentioned her) to show how force and personality meld. Does Endowment Fit My Cosmere Magic Theory? I theorize every Vessel Connects to Spiritual Realm Investiture through some primal force. You suggest Shards other than Ruin, Preservation, and Honor might not. Personally I think there’s too much ad hoc analysis of cosmere magic. Brandon says the cosmere generally works by the same set of rules. THE FOLLOWING IS SPECULATION. (That’s in caps for @Calderis' sake.) IMO, there’s a fair bit of evidence that Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics. You don’t have to agree, but assume that’s true to show how this might work. Primal Force My theory predicts Breath holders (1) access Spiritual Realm Investiture through quantum physics (Endowment’s “filter”), and (2) Awaken objects through quantum physics. Will these predictions hold? Brandon says Breaths equate to a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture – its smallest usable unit. Every Nalthian is born with that Investiture quantum. As you say, every Nalthian can Awaken. Endowment passes the first test since Nalthians access Endowment’s Investiture through quanta. To our knowledge, no other Shard allocates its Investiture by quanta or has a magic system built on them. The second test says Awakening itself must rely on quantum physics. Your “act of endowment” is the Awakener’s transfer of Investiture quanta to an object. There are no partial Breaths. Awakening passes the second test: Each Awakening works through the transfer of Investiture quanta. These bits of quantum “flavor” add to, but are unnecessary for, the theory: - The Heightenings represent the quantization of Breaths. Because of age, illness, and related factors, Breaths hold slightly different amounts of Investiture. - Awakening drains “color.” I believe Awakening destroys an object’s pigment molecules in all three Realms like Nightblood does. (Pigments reflect visible light the eye perceives as color.) For thermodynamic reasons, I theorize Awakening consumes the pigment molecules’ Investiture. These molecules are reduced to their subatomic particles – the realm of quantum physics. - Nalthis’ subastral is filled with light. Photons are quanta of light. Vessel Personality Brandon tells us Endowment wants to create a cosmere market in Breaths. Breaths are portable and self-Identify with their holder. Because Nalthis is Breaths’ sole source, supply is limited. Endowment’s Vessel chooses to endow Nalthis with a legacy of enormous wealth and cosmere significance. That is possible ONLY because Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics (IMO). As same-sized Investiture quanta, Breaths are the perfect asset for her market since the value of each Breath at any time will be the same as every other Breath. You can even create a futures market for Breaths. Who Created Radiant Spren It's Brandon’s hint in the quoted WoB, not mine. I don’t think it matters whether one Shard or two were involved. Because we’re talking spren, it seems more reasonable Cultivation made this change. She tells us, “I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED.” (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) That includes spren. In my “Cultivation’s Long-Term Plan” post, I suggest her motive: “Cultivation may have foreseen Aharietiam and needed a magical alternative to the Heralds that didn’t rely exclusively on Honor’s Investiture.” Fabrials Apply Surges Ico uses his fabrial because Kaladin can’t Soulcast. My point is fabrials apply fundamental forces (Surges) like earth’s machines do. I think Ico’s fabrial uses Soulcasting’s Transformation Surge. IMO, introducing “natural properties of the Cognitive Realm” complicates the explanation. Imprisonment Is Not a Bond Imprisonment is NOT a bond. The “primal force/fundamental law” WoB says “Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” IOW, Honor’s primal force only encompasses voluntary bonds, not imprisonment or enslavement. I can only guess at gemstones’ role in ancient fabrials. Radiant spren transition between Realms through the Nahel bond. Maybe other spren need gemstones to transition. I presume Oathgate spren are the Oathgates’ Cognitive aspect (its “soul”). Maybe gemstones enable the Oathgate spren to manifest in the Physical Realm as needed to make the Oathgate work. This doesn’t seem too different from spren transforming Singers from inside their gemhearts. If Odium thought he needed these particular gemstones, they must be Spiritually tied to the Oathgate spren. My Characterization of Cal’s Words I only attribute to Cal his acknowledgment that Cultivation’s influence is the spren. The stuff you think I attribute to Cal comes from me, and I expressly preface it, “IMO...” Cal doesn’t say spren are transformative entities that transition between Realms. I do. And I stand by it. Radiant spren are Surgebinding’s engine, not some peripheral component. They generate the car’s power. IMO, it’s irrelevant that engine parts can be made from Honor, Cultivation, or Odium (unless there are cosmere tariffs). Cultivation controls “ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED” including spren of any Investiture. My previous post describes how I think spren Transform to access Surges. Requested WoBs Here’s two WoBs on “people with magic” vs. “interaction with nature” systems. Voidbinders Where is this “explicitly” stated? That might affect my opinion. Brandon says pre-OB we haven’t seen Voidbinding. That tells us Stormform is not Voidbinding. (In a literal sense, the listeners were Voidbringers.) Is there something I missed? (IIRC, didn’t you write the post that made this point?) Odium and Passion Not a big point, but FWIW I think the opposite is true. I think by severing people’s Connections to one another, Odium frees passion. One of my posts compares Odium to Freud’s id (unrestrained passion). Honor is Freud’s superego (culturally imposed societal rules), and Cultivation is Freud’s ego (mediating between the id and the superego). Brandon’s magical metaphor, IMO: People who cut themselves off from others fill with hate. Connections Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections with raw Investiture. Connections ARE the natural forces and emotions. People don’t Connect TO forces and emotions. People Connect to objects and other people THROUGH them: Gravity is a Connection between objects (including people) and a planet. Emotions Connect people to each other, to ideas, to times, to places, and to objects. Abrasion is a Connection between two objects in physical contact. All the cosmere’s fundamental forces are Connections. Kelsier sees that the Spiritual Realm is “Only Connection, person to person, man to world, Kelsier to god.” (M:SH, Part 3-3, Kindle Loc. 1032.) @Calderis: Mortals Access Investiture Through Shard Filters The issue is how mortals access Investiture, not how they “access ... a system.” Hemalurgy relies on magic that transfers sDNA between people. Ruin’s primal force “filters” that magic into spiking – an act of entropy. Hemalurgically-granted Allomancy and Feruchemy are still Preservation’s systems because even spiked Allomancers and Feruchemists access Investiture through Preservation’s “stasis” filter. Renarin accesses Odium through Honor’s bonding filter, the Nahel bond. That means Renarin Surgebinds when he foresees. No “hack” is necessary. IMO, Glys isn’t even a hack of Cultivation’s system. I think all spren, including voidspren, manifest their power through Transformation. Renarin is like any other Surgebinder except his spren also Connects to Odium. I’ll talk more about the Fused below. I think unique Shard filters explain most system differences, and planet peculiarities explain the rest. Windrunners bond to fly. Hemalurgist spike to transfer sDNA. Awakeners transfer Investiture quanta to Awaken, etc. Surges and the Fused We’ve had the “Fused are/aren’t Voidbinding” discussion before, and you are right to refer folks to that thread. I emphasize here, though, that “Surges” are simply Rosharans’ collective perception of cosmere fundamental forces. I think Singers and humans perceive the Surges identically. Since Singers predate Rosharan humans – and the Fused predate the Heralds – humans might have adopted the Singer’s perception of the Surges. I don’t think any of this involves hacking; but if it does, who’s hacking whom? You know I think the Fused do exercise their abilities differently from Radiants, but IMO their magical abilities as such don’t matter. Whether the Fused Surgebind or Voidbind IMO turns on how they access Investiture. I believe the Fused access Investiture through Odium’s filter. I HYPOTHESIZE his filter is breaking Connections. Hate divides. @Jofwu, Voidbinding glyphs half-rotate Surgebinding glyphs IMO because Voidbinders access the same Surges as Surgebinders by different means. I see different Surge expressions where Cal doesn’t. If Investiture access (the Shard’s filter) defines a magic system, half-rotated glyphs with the same Surges makes sense. Especially if Odium’s filter is breaking (not making) Connections... Cultivation and the Nahel Bond Not a biggie, but I think it misleads to say the “Nahel bond still involves Cultivation.” I don’t believe it does. Oath progression affects the bond, not the spren. Oaths are an “Honor-y” thing. For many Radiants, the Nahel bond may stall before the 5th and possibly earlier oaths. The bond prevents those spren from manifesting fully. (More on this next.) It’s not some inherent spren property related to Cultivation. If you still disagree, that’s fine. This is a minor quibble. Ishar’s Role Agreed. Oaths don’t embody organization or restriction. Lightweaver truths show oaths lack moral content. Oaths serve to strengthen the Nahel bond. BUT...Oath progression parallels the Radiant’s internal growth. I think their own growth restrains Radiant behavior. I believe an order’s primary divine attribute attracts the spren to its Radiant. IMO, each completed oath takes the Radiant closer to their goal, their order’s secondary divine attribute. I think each Fifth Oath manifests that attribute, fully merging Radiant and spren. The secondary divine attributes seem an outward-looking, “uniting” version of the primary divine attribute. Examples: Protecting others vs. Leading others to protect themselves. Loving others, which is about “you” vs. Healing others, which is about “them.” Wise, which can lead to Nightblood vs. Careful, ensuring your wisdom won’t hurt others. [I may flesh this idea out in an update to my 2014 post.] We don’t know the Dustbringer oaths or how many Malata has spoken. The Dustbringers’ divine attributes are “brave” (primary) and “obedient” (secondary). IMO, each oath marks Malata as more obedient. Your quote suggests Malata hasn’t progressed very far to obedience. Since Dustbringers literally seem to be hotheads, obedience is a good trait for them to aspire to. It puts them under some leader’s control. Malatadin? Conclusion Key idea: Shards magically differ only in how they access Investiture. Brandon says each Shard has its own magical “filter.” Surgebinders access Honor through bonds, Allomancers access Preservation through stasis, and Hemalurgists access Ruin through entropy. That much Brandon is clear about. Corollary: The magical abilities Shards grant work through the same filter. Windrunners bond gravity in a new direction to fly. Hemalurgists spike attributes (an act of entropy) to transfer them. Feruchemists return to the status quo (an act of stasis) when they re-convert Investiture into attributes. And I SPECULATE Awakeners transfer quanta of Investiture when they animate objects. I think this theory explains Shard magic. Vessel personality explains the rest.
  15. Great post, @Argent, and great discussion by everyone!!! There’s so much here to digest and discuss, starting with my favorite topic. Means of Access Defines Magic Systems Yes! You, @Jofwu, and now even @Calderis all agree the Surgebinding system is Honor’s regardless of which spren grant abilities through that system. “Some of the magics lean more Honor and some [of] them lean more Cultivation.” And some like Glys grant Odium-associated abilities. Because Surgebinders access these abilities through the Nahel bond, the system IMO remains Surgebinding even for Renarin. I presented this analogy last year on Discord: The Nahel bond is like a gun. Surgebinders can load their gun with different bullets, namely spren of different Investitures that personify different abilities. But the nature of the bullet doesn’t change the nature of the gun. The gun (the Nahel bond) always belongs to Honor. The Boskone WoB @TheEdgedancer quotes also shows that magics like “flying,” that rely more on Honor’s Investiture, work through bond-creation: “So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go.” Brandon implies that magics like healing, that rely more on Cultivation’s Investiture, work through growth/transformation. IMO, the Boskone WoB establishes these two important rules of cosmere magic: 1. Each Shard’s unique means of accessing Investiture defines its magic system like the Nahel bond defines Surgebinding as Honor’s. 2. The magical abilities Shards grant work by the same method as the Shard’s means of accessing Investiture, like using bonds to “fly.” The Boskone WoB amplifies two older WoBs I often cite. They say in part: “The means of getting powers ... are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” [2008] “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” [2011] This 2018 WoB confirms three Shards’ “primal forces/fundamental laws.” Ruin is entropy, Preservation is stasis, and Honor “is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by,” that is, bonds. IMO, mortals access Ruin by Intending an act of entropy; they access Preservation by Intending an act of stasis; and they access Honor by Intending a bond. You see this when you look at these Shards’ magic systems. I use every opportunity to make this case because I am so convinced it is the right way to understand Shards. This framework clears away a lot of the confusion the OP cites. I’ve yet to see a contrary analysis that addresses these four WoBs. Surgebinding Through Radiant Spren We don’t know when Radiant spren came to exist, but “All of the sapient spren are later developments.” Brandon hints Cultivation created them. Since Radiant spren mimic Honorblades, they must post-date them. I think Surgebinding didn’t exist until the Honorblades, and KR Surgebinding didn’t exist until after that. But I agree Honor’s bonding mechanic always held the potential for Surgebinding. Here’s a question: Radiant spren personify the Heralds’ primary divine attributes like protection, justice, and learning. Each Radiant spren binds the Surges its mimicked Honorblade can bind. Yet these Surges, for both Honorblades and Radiant spren, seem unrelated to the divine attribute. Why, for example, should “just” Skybreakers fly and divide? I know there are “natural pairings,” which I believe relate to the “five classical elements” of air, water, fire, earth, and aether. But the relationship between divine attribute and Surge always seemed weird to me. Oaths and Orders I’ve long believed Ishar threatened Radiant spren, not Surgebinders. Here’s the relevant quote: The bolded pronouns’ have uncertain antecedents. I think the first “them” refers to “men.” Ishar wants Surgebinders to organize themselves into the orders. IMO, the bolded “one” and “they” don’t make sense as references to men. Destroying all Surgebinders doesn’t prevent future Surgebinding because the Radiant spren are still around waiting to bond. Moreover, mortal men can’t agree to “precepts and laws” that bind future Surgebinder generations. But immortal spren CAN agree to bind themselves to Ishar’s laws, and IMO they did. As the Binder of Gods and the Bondsmith’s Patron Herald, Ishar could cut each spren’s Nahel bond, “killing” them. There’s not a lot to support this interpretation other than logic, but this seems more plausible than just threatening to kill Surgebinders who couldn’t bind later generations in any event. I don’t think oaths are a necessary part of Surgebinding. Bonds are “an Honor thing,” not oaths. Ishar felt he needed to organize men and impose oaths because oath-less Surgebinders had begun to appear. Radiant spren already searched for Cognitively compatible humans to bond with. Oaths IMO are just a means to regulate human power and prevent another Ashyn. Oaths don’t form the bond, they strengthen it. I believe Honor could have found another way than oaths to bond Honorblades to the Heralds and bind the Fused to Braize. I think the WoB you rely on refers to the subjectivity of oaths. It says, “two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same.” The Boskone WoB, a year later, agrees: “whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath.” The WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph quoted above states Ishar did impose some “precepts and laws.” I speculate at minimum he imposed the First Oath, which binds all orders. Maybe the Heralds themselves vowed the First Oath’s litany when making the Oathpact. Each KR might interpret the First Oath differently, but it does bind them all to a general moral code. Anyway, “mankind's influence on the spren themselves” is the exception that swallows the rule. As your WoB shows, men and spren influence each other in an ongoing interactive process. Fabrials Fabrials to me are solely Cultivation’s magic system. Odium identifies Cultivation as the Shard of growth and transformation. Cultivation IMO accesses fundamental forces through transformation. Khriss calls spren “transformative Cognitive entities.” (SLA Ars Arcana.) I believe Stormlight causes spren to manifest in the Physical Realm. They transform from the idea they personify into the thing itself: fire, water, life, etc. All things have three aspects including these phenomena. Stormlight transforms spren from their Cognitive aspect into their Physical aspect. I think that’s the magical basis for fabrials. The Surges are Roshar’s perception of fundamental forces. (If you haven’t yet, I’d be honored if you would look at my “Primacy of Perception” thread about perception’s cosmere-wide role.) IMO, fabrials are machines that apply fundamental forces just like earth’s machines apply our fundamental forces. For example, a Surge that heats air can condense water onto a cold surface. Maybe Captain Ico’s fabrial uses the Adhesion and/or Abrasion Surges to cause Physical Realm air molecules to collide and generate heat and the Transformation Surge to bring the condensed water into Shadesmar. I’m unsure what you mean, Argent, when you say, “Something that still involves a bond.” You acknowledge modern fabrial users don’t bond their spren. Brandon says Honor's bonds are voluntary. I doubt even ancient fabrial users bond their spren. Oathgate users don’t seem to bond Oathgate spren. Cultivation’s Influence Cal, I’m thrilled you now agree Surgebinding is Honor’s system alone. If I can only get you to accept the Boskone WoB and related WoBs as a framework applicable to all Shards... (Sighs.) I agree Cultivation’s influence is the spren – Khriss’ “transformative Cognitive entity.” IMO, Stormlight transforms all spren from their Cognitive aspect into their Physical aspect regardless of the spren’s Investiture mix. The idea of fire becomes fire. The idea of foresight becomes foresight. The idea of flying becomes flying. The Nahel bond is the pathway that Connects the Radiant spren’s Cognitive and Physical aspects. Your Honorblade comment is apt. Honorblades access the same fundamental forces as spren but without spren. Honor’s Investiture is solely responsible for Honorblade magic. FWIW, your example supports the 2008 and 2011 WoBs I link above that say Shards differ only in “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what [the magic] can do.” The “Old Magic” I recall Khriss uses this term someplace, but I’m unsure what an “Invested Art” is. I assume you mean magic systems where mortals can direct the magic. (Art requires an artist.) Brandon calls those “people with magic” systems and says they all arose after the Shattering. Before then, there were only “interaction with nature” systems, where mortals interacted with magic as part of their ecosystem but couldn’t direct it. I think the Old Magic is an “interaction with nature” system. Mortals can ask the Nightwatcher for a boon, but they can’t direct or control what she’ll do. She gives mortals what she thinks they “deserve.” By my understanding of your definition, the Old Magic is not an Invested Art. Odium’s Magical Influence I agree, Argent, with pretty much everything you say about the Regals. Voidspren occupy their gemhearts like other spren do. And I agree this is an “interaction with nature” system that predates the Shattering. Odium now uses it to his advantage. I’m sure you know I disagree about the Fused. For many reasons – mostly textual and all of which I spell out elsewhere – I believe Odium’s primal force is breaking Connections. IMO, the “Broken One” takes someone’s pain by breaking their Connection to whatever (usually whoever) causes the pain. This broken emotional Connection leaves a void in that person’s Spiritual aspect through which Odium’s Investiture enters. Yes, I believe the Fused are Voidbinders. They have so few Connections to anyone that Odium’s Investiture fills them. They reincarnate by terminating their host’s Connection to life. I think the Fused break Connections to perform their magic. They dis-Connect the Gravitation Surge to fly and dis-Connect the Abrasion Surge to glide. I’ve advocated this interpretation elsewhere in much more detail and don’t intend to provoke discussion about it here. Few, if any, agree with me. We’ll discover what’s cosmere truth soon enough. Conclusion Oh, the joy of a thoughtful, well-considered thread on topics dear to my heart! Thank you all.