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Mr Horrible

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Everything posted by Mr Horrible

  1. Yeah my bad, was the wrong phrasing. He was however flightly enough to go through almost every woman available in the shattered plains :P.
  2. I have to disagree with the you guys who are saying this subplot isn't over, I would be extremely surprised if Shallan and Adolin were to get divorced (does it even exist on Roshar?) just going from Brandon's previous works. Now there's the possibility Adolin dies, but I personally think Shallan or Kaladin are much more likely to kick the bucket first, indeed the chances of Dalinar/Shallan/Kaladin all surviving book 5 are really low imo. However, that doesn't mean I can't comment on the execution again, as apparently I can't seem to stop myself. My big issue that it feels rushed, there were threads to this subplot that I was sure would be explored and they are mostly just left hanging or have a sentence dealing with them. These include: Kaladin killing Helaran. This is less clear than the others as it's possible it's still an issue, however Shallan *really* didn't like Amaram when she thought he was responsible in a time when everyone aside from Kaladin respected Amaram. It was addressed in a paragraph early in OB where Shallan reminded herself that Kaladin was protecting his brightlord, however there's still a disconnect there for me as Amaram would have been defending his life as well. I don't know, it seemed resolved too quickly considering what was saw in WoR imo. Adolin's fickleness with women - I *really* hate the trope of a female main character being so interesting/charming/whatever that a previously womanising male character immediately changes his ways upon meeting her. This plot point felt simply abandoned, it wasn't addressed anywhere outside of in WoR when the relationship was new and Adolin would still be interested in any of his previous relationships at that point in them. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diminish Adolin's character here, just that it's a trait of his that went out the window upon meeting Shallan. I really hate how the deciding factor - Adolin knowing the 'real' Shallan, was a solution to a problem that was almost completely confined to this book. People theorised about Kaladin liking Veil or vice versa but that wasn't well supported at all in WoR and was a guess at what might happen. It's more annoying because prior to this book no one really contested that Kaladin had a better understanding of Shallan than Adolin did. Shallan was explicitly wearing a false persona around Adolin for almost the entirety of WoR and Kaladin saw right through it even before the chasm scene (admittedly Kaladin's distrust of all lighteyes helped with that). Heck even in OB Kaladin was the only one to work out what Shallan was doing with her safehand in Kholinar. This ties in with @Naerin's post about how the roles seem very forced. Kaladin's quote about not actually liking Shallan romantically just seems... Odd. We have viewpoints of him being attracted to her and Syl (his closest companion) has shipped the heck out of it for some time, but then Brandon throws in that line? It's fine for Shallan to choose Adolin even though Kaladin likes her too, I don't think you need to backtrack on that. Admittedly yes I would have preferred to see Shallan and Kaladin, but my biggest issue is in the handling which felt extremely rushed, particularly at the end. This book introduced some great reasons why Adolin was the better choice for Shallan, but a lack of time makes some of them feel forced to me.
  3. So I really disliked this subplot and particularly its resolution. Fair call I was wanting Shallan/Kaladin, but my problems aren't really with them not getting together but rather with how everything happened. All the way through the book Shallan/Veil are crushing on Kaladin, Jasnah even explicitly called her out on this early on and absolutely nothing changed. It persisted nearly all the way up until the final few scenes before the wedding and I'm just like "...", now obviously she loves Adolin however this felt so rushed that I wonder if Brandon condensed it based on reader feedback. It seems the only purpose to this subplot was differentiating Veil/Shallan/Radiant and I'm not a fan, they always felt distinct from the start. Idk we have several scenes of Syl really pushing Kaladin to find someone (whoever that is), in which case I expect that he will.
  4. My guess would be: "I cannot save everyone, but I will save those I can".
  5. damnation, that's pretty harsh of Syl then. Although I guess she can hardly know that Dalinar is about to go super saiyan.
  6. I mean Adolin, it was when they were in Shadesmar and Adolin was wounded, Syl was pushing Kaladin to say the words and he couldn't.
  7. I think it's about accepting that some people he leads will die or fighting for the living, Kaladin clearly still has issues surrounding this. I guess somewhat ironically, accepting that people will die and progressing through the windrunner ideals would make Kaladin more capable of saving people. Edit: it was also implied pretty strongly that if Kaladin spoke the fourth ideal then Adolin would survive.
  8. I have to agree here, I think this and the number of viewpoints in the climax make me disagree with the pre-reviews I read that said this book was the best so far (I mean I also slightly preferred TWoK to WoR, which doesn't seem to be the consensus). I also really like Kaladin and this book was a lot of set up for him without much resolution, admittedly this was probably necessary to avoid every book being 'Kaladin says an oath and kicks chull' at the end. Yeah, I believe Shallan thought about it precisely once around Kaladin? When you compare that to her reaction to Amaram (who was respected by everyone at the time) there's quite the disconnect there for me. Heh, I agree. I also did not get the impression previously that we were being set up for that in WoR. Sure people theorised when Shallan's personalities became more prominent in the preview chapters but this seems like quite a cop out to me. Idk combining it with Shallan choosing Adolin because he knows her, which if you step back a book was the opposite (I mean even in OB that safehand scene has only Kaladin work out what she did). I personally wonder if Brandon made cuts because the love triangle angle was not popular with readers, if this was the case I question the need for it at all, there was quite a lot of Veil->Kaladin in this book and I don't understand why you'd have that much and then rush the conclusion. I agree again. I think the most important part for Taravangian/the KR was the revelation that Surgebinding destroyed their previous planet. Now this might be enough to cause them to set it aside when it's been 2000 years since the last desolation and they show no sign of starting again, but in a situation where there's a huge threat in Odium I don't really understand why anyone would expect the KR to not use any weapons they have available. I also agree and wonder how on earth Nale didn't know who the original voidbringers were, or perhaps he's been working for the Singers for a long time? Sure, although I expected more from the diagram, unless Taravangian has a bigger plan he just rolled over (I'm hoping the former tbh). Odium clearly wanted Taravangian's assistance, it was discussed in blatant terms in the scene, which makes the claim that Odium will only negotiate with Stupid!Taravangian rather suspect to me. I guess I just don't really buy that the Diagram is so complex that it could predict events years and years into the future but not account for Odium potentially hardballing negotiations. This does tie in with people wondering if empathy is how Taravangian has the capacity to save the world rather than his intelligence, I hope there's something more here. I disgree here, we haven't seen them all and that Unbound that helps Shallan/co (and presumably corrupted Glys) has a bunch of possibilities. I have a couple more things that I feel were glossed over when I expected them not to be: Adolin's murder of Sadeas - had a whole 2 paragraphs or so of ramifications for Adolin's character. I didn't particularly like how Amaram was handled, it seems like we are moving on to the Unbound being the big threats, but that makes me question why have Kaladin develop past Amaram only to give him a powerup to make him relevant and then kill him off. Idk, it wasn't particularly satisfying for me to see Amaram basically be the poster boy for what would have happened to Dalinar (especially considering Moash also fills this role).
  9. I don't think Adolin has ever really gone head to head vs Kaladin with a spear or the Blackthorn.
  10. Minor SA3 spoilers: On a more general level I don't really understand why breaking the bonds would cause spren to die. They would lose their consciousness in the physical realm due to breaking the Nahel bond however Syl's talked many times about what she has done in shadesmar when she wasn't bonded to Kaladin. Now the shardblades I understand due to the KR effectively trapping their spren in the physical realm by breaking their bonds while their spren were blades. Does the Nahel bond expose them to these vulnerabilities if the oaths are broken? Even so if spren are *mostly* representations of belief on the cognitive realm, wouldn't killing them involve forgetting?
  11. This might well have merit too, we've seen Kaladin's internal monologue about the effects of stormlight and what happens when it runs out, Kaladin would have been using a lot of stormlight for quite some time and the lack of it may be influencing his mood. However the fact that it had been over a day since he ran out of stormlight would probably rule this out, unless we're seeing the effects of an addiction.
  12. Well the rest of the world isn't prepared at all for a storm going in the opposite direction that turns all their Parshmen into voidbringers, perhaps all communication infrastructure was wiped out when the Everstorm went through? Well Kaladin has only touched 3 (did he grab one while training at all?) shardblades (and 1 honorblade), of those Shallan's was the one like his. Now you might be correct in saying that since Syl was 'dead' and Kaladin didn't have access to his bond, he might not have heard normal blades scream. However this is an assumption (one I don't agree with given that Kaladin's bond clearly was not completely severed) and barely leads to an inconsistency. You are correct that the size changing aspect is better proof though. Well if she was overseeing the murder of Jasnah would it not make sense to be in the same region? Particularly when she would want to see a body to confirm Jasnah is actually dead, as the ghostbloods do know of some KR abilities. Also the fact that the person overseeing Jasnah's murder was a ghostblood is hardly a coincidence when they are the group that's established to want her dead. Now I don't agree with this purely because of Moash. If Graves immediately forced the issue who knows what it might have caused Moash to do, as he was a member of Bridge Four and likely capable of foiling the assassination if he felt so inclined. As far as Moash not ending it quickly, well that makes sense too given what he says as well as his history with Kaladin. As far as the hint goes, it's clear that Graves is in shock and not thinking properly. Perhaps the fencing is designed to simulate the stances and reach of a shardplate user? It would also be likely that a 1 handed stance is better against spear bearers. I agree that using such a long and relatively heavy weapon with one hand would be rather stupid in a duel with another shardblade user though.
  13. As other people have said, Kaladin returned to find his hometown in ruins and everyone missing and quite possibly killed by the Everstorm-effected Parshmen. Would you like him to crack wise in this scenario? Even with the gloomspren, comparing this Kaladin to the one in the slave wagons is absurd as well, I'd suggest you have a reread. Why? I would imagine Kaladin has pretty decent credit given his new status as a KR, not to mention he seems to have left the honorblade in Ulrithu, which would be rather overkill as collateral. The idea that Dalinar wouldn't lend the spheres to anyone in the new KR circle is frankly absurd. Maybe he's not eager to find his parents dead? Are you saying two guardsmen who likely haven't even been to the shattered plains are a threat to Kaladin? I mean sure he doesn't have stormlight currently, but he's been fighting for a long time and significant stormlight usage is a new occurrence, not to mention the whole shardblade/spear thing. It seems like you're reading entirely too much into this and I don't find this particular conclusion logical at all.
  14. I disagree with you using the SA3 Kaladin excerpt as indication he's going to be just as depressed and mopey as he was previously. We were dropped into a pretty terrible situation where Kaladin didn't beat the Everstorm and Hearthstone had been ruined with no one in sight. Come on now, any character would have shown much the same emotions in this situation.
  15. I imagine there's going to be quite the high death toll for our current viewpoint characters, especially Kaladin and Dalinar. Jasnah will be the one to have a post-mortem flashback book imo.
  16. I don't find the comparison between lighteyes and darkeyes to real racism pleasing, you are leaving out so much context on both sides of the comparison. Kaladin interacts with significantly more than 2 lighteyes (we have what, 5 or so in the TWoK that Kaladin is shown to interact with)? Indeed as others have pointed out, Dalinar is shown to be different than the other people with authority in Alethkar and even then it wasn't until the shardblade scene that Kaladin can know he's different to Amaram. Afterwards we see (mostly) that Kaladin's thoughts about lighteyes are mostly about the rest of them and acknowledges Dalinar as honourable (with Syl's prodding). Now this does change a bit after the imprisonment when Kaladin thinks it's better if Elhokar dies (and Dalinar the inherits the throne). Also during this period Dalinar is covertly testing Amaram, however the problem with this is he was actually reasonably final with Kaladin if you read through the last interaction they had (Dalinar talking about how all those witnesses couldn't have lied), that was poorly handled on Dalinar's part when he knows how big an issue this is for Kaladin and then leaves him in the dark. Kaladin clearly takes it too far sometimes (notably with random lighteyes like the horse trainer or Adolin), however it's worth noting that from what we've seen the problems with Alethkar seem to stem from the top-down and the caste system has absolutely enabled the worst individuals Kaladin has met. Indeed it's rather clear that something is going to happen along these lines, particularly with Kaladin likely to become lighteyes permanently as he progresses as a KR, we're going to see the social hierarchy change. Finally I thought it was rather obvious that these problems within Kaladin and Alethkar society are being set up for change/resolution. Kaladin still has lots of work to do but this is spelled out to us multiple times (e.g. Kaladin getting depressed about not being able to save everyone and Teft telling him to pull his head in). The idea that he will end up struggling with the same problems he's facing now seems ridiculous to me when you consider the way the narrative has progressed and what's remaining for Kaladin to progress as a KR. It is interesting how you always have black people on the receiving end of racism in your examples where it should be the other way around based on the social power dynamic between darkeyes and lighteyes. However as I said before I *really* don't like this comparison as it is not the same scenario. The thing is every Alethi character we've seen in the story has been "eyeist" to some degree, even Dalinar who is held up as another honourable character suffers from it as I said previously (never promoting darkeyes to high ranks in his army before Kaladin). So I thought it was rather... odd that you are ok with implicit "eyeism", but when Kaladin is explicit about it you dislike it, that logic seems borderline ridiculous to me. Really the only lighteye character we've seen that could be considered 'neutral' may be Jasnah, just based on how she doesn't prescribe to a lot of Alethi traits. Kaladin does seem to view his distrust as a virtue in much of WoR, I agree. However he is pretty clearly shown to be the character in the wrong here (for random lighteyes). There are two issues at play though; the social power hierarchy in Alethkar (Kaladin's disapproval is 'right) and Kaladin's distrust of lighteyes (shown to be, for the most part, wrong). This is of course again complicated by the fact that there are many lighteyes that Kaladin shouldn't trust, he just isn't around them much in Dalinar's camp.
  17. "Racist" eh? Yeah that's not a misnomer at all. Hell if you wanted to talk about racial discrimination why on earth wouldn't you talk about the Parshendi? Even just talking about eye colour, the amount of passive discrimination is huge, I would have though you would be annoyed at most of the Alethi characters if reading about racists bother you, none of them share what is presumably your view (eye colour doesn't mean anything about who they are as a person). If we go back to why people like Kaladin, from what I have seen is a lot of them like him specifically because of the reasons you don't (he's mopey and angsty), indeed a surprising amount seem to resonate with the mental illness aspect of Kaladin. Now I personally don't really care either way, as long as he doesn't venture into self pity too much it doesn't bother me (and if he wasn't angsty it wouldn't be believable).
  18. Ehh, considering Kaladin is the only major character that takes significant issue with the system of rule it's a fair bet to say that a riot in Kholinar that is primarily motivated by the caste system is going to involve him. Particularly when he's back in the same general area and has new authority as a member of the KR. I imagine it'll go down that Kaladin tries to get in contact with either Dalinar or Elhokar after witnessing the mess in Kholinar who will be the people with actual authority in this matter. It is however reasonable to think Kaladin will be involved *because* of his personal interest. It will quite possibly not be that huge of an issue, however it still hasn't been dealt with. Also I think Shallan having to be around Kaladin more than she did Amaram might make things worse, she clearly tried to be logical about this but couldn't really change how she felt. Wait, you actually fail to see how Kaladin not disclosing who killed Helaren may be? Now come on, I get that there is an argument that it could be a non-issue, however that's just a possibility. To say you can't see how this might be an issue seems ridiculous. No they don't have to be, however when we are talking about progression as a KR, Kaladin has been the one the story almost revolved around (Kaladin progressing in the moments the story hinges on). Shallan progressed in WoR too, however her intellect was more important than how far she was into her KR order. I think Kaladin is going to continue to time his 'level ups' with key moments in the story, other characters will likely get them too but I don't think all that much will change until book 5. If you note the characters we currently might expect to come through as strong protaganists don't have books until the 2nd half. Jasnah, Renarin, Lift etc all could take similar roles to Kaladin but because they are only getting books in the 2nd half I tend to think the status quo won't change all that much outside of giving Szeth and Eshonai more screentime in books 3-5. Eh, Kaladin has always been more about protecting his men than winning battles. If you extend his 'men' to all the ex-bridgemen or even further I think you'd see him considering larger pictures. However I was really talking about how Dalinar recognised several times how loyal Kaladin's men were to him, which is what I was talking about with him being a leader. Adolin will need some sort of substantial powerup to be able to compete with voidbringers/unmade that will threaten Radiants, he has quite some way to go here imo. I don't particularly care to get into the whole Adolin vs Kaladin debate, I was originally just talking about why Kaladin would continue to be featured heavily. Kaladin with just a little stormlight was more effective against Szeth than Adolin was. Adolin is very good at traditional duels against other shardbearers however not only are these a non-issue for Szeth/KR, Odium's forces don't seem to follow the whole 'man in armor' type thing. Yeah I don't agree with this at all. It was established that Kaladin shouldn't seek out his own justice on Amaram, however it was never shown that Kaladin should forget what happened. Kaladin wasn't at the center of every plot line in Book 2, indeed he barely features in the lines Shallan is involved in. The problem is that with any sort of physical threat currently, Kaladin is heads and shoulders the strongest Radiant which means either he goes up against it (like what happened with Szeth in WoR) or we wait and wonder why Kaladin isn't there. I would imagine the KR would crutch heavily upon him and Bridge Four for large threats purely because of the leg up they got from starting early. Again this is dependent on Jasnah being unable to soulcast voidbringers/etc like she did the bandits(?) in TWoK. And I personally like the story being quite Kaladin centric while there are still issues he needs to sort out. Considering the narrative in books 1 and 2 you would think him meeting his parents/Roshone again would be quite a big deal. Are you telling me there were no darkeyed soldiers worthy of becoming a captain before Kaladin? I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. Dalinar has certainly become an honourable man but let's not go crazy here regarding him not caring about eye colour. Also I really couldn't give a damnation about Adolin, his story is a lot less compelling than Kaladin's and I don't find it interesting enough to warrant him getting a bunch more screentime on personal issues. In saying that the ramifications of killing Sadeas will be quite interesting. The KR will work as a team, it's just currently that team is heavily lopsided (outside of Jasnah) and while the others might catch up, I think Kaladin's role in the story suggests he'll stay at the forefront whenever some huge physical threat comes in, at least until Eshonai and Szeth develop.
  19. Saying the Kholinar won't have a personal subplot for Kaladin considering the light/darkeyes dynamic there is rather amusing, I mean that just seems obvious to toss Kaladin into which is why people have predicted it. I feel like you're discounting Kaladin from 2 of those points; namely Shallan and her brother involve Kaladin quite a bit and Dalinar and the Stormfather is really the same for all radiants in that they all need to progress further through their orders. e.g. Shallan needs to tell more truths and Kaladin needs to say a few more oaths. Of these moments in general, Kaladin's have been quite a lot more impactful than anyone else's to the story. Kaladin is portrayed as a great warrior and a great leader (guilt being his major weakness here), a character like that is expected to be important in the coming fights, particularly while there aren't many martial-focused radiants around (Stonewardens, Skybreakers etc). No Szeth doesn't count as a Skybreaker yet. As it stands currently he is clearly the strongest fighter of the Radiants (although this assumes soulcasting will have limitations to stop it from one shotting everything), this may change with Dalinar also gaining surgebinding abilities to compliment his natural talent, but I doubt it due to the differing roles of their respective orders. Amaram and Dalinar is pretty much just Sedeas and Dalinar done over, without the personal betrayal. You have to be joking to think Dalinar's personal connection with Amaram is as dramatic and important as Kaladin's. Now he'll certainly be involved (and likely some other characters like Elhokar and Adolin), but it's still going to be about what Amaram did to Kaladin and likely feature the latter's viewpoint when it all goes down. The only other chance is for a Skybreaker to come along and dispense justice there and leading to friction, but I don't think the timing will line up unless Amaram is good at hiding. Regarding the amount of time Kaladin "needs", he really didn't need all that much in WoR as he and his squad landed 'safe' jobs. He had a lot of issues to sort out, but that is still the case (guilt, ruling system, family matters, returning to lead Bridge Four etc). Note on the last one there, with presumably a lot of Bridge Four becoming squires they are going to be the most effective force against voidbringers for quite some time. As far as symbols go, Dalinar has his reputation as honorable that spread throughout the camp and he will presumably become the leader of the radiants, however there have been way too many scenes about Kaladin's antics and how random soldiers (primarily darkeyed) knew who he was and showed respect. I've got the impression that Dalinar is heavily respected as a leader, whereas Kaladin was gaining recognition as a hero. Now they both have their place but in terms of symbolic pull I have to favour Kaladin here, just because there's been so many instances of random people knowing about him.
  20. Well I wanted to point out you weren't really addressing what was being claimed. The problem for you is that those two quotes are the latest instances where we've seen Kaladin and Shallan think of each other. Also note that there aren't that many examples of relationships in the Stormlight Archives and I just find it interesting that Shallan describes Kaladin in a similar way to how Navani described Dalinar. I was trying to talk about the OP and what I believe the situation is. I think it should be reasonably obvious that what we think about the chances of each pairing does not affect the outcome. However I should point out that the reverse causality should hopefully hold, the intended outcome should impact what we think the chances are as these things don't just come out of nowhere (hopefully). I didn't really follow the fandom until shortly before WoR was released, however I did find the Shallarin push odd simply because it had very little to go on aside from which characters people thought would do well together. I think predicting romance at the end of TWoK was a bit of a fool's game because it didn't really feature in that book (aside from Dalinar/Navani and Shallan getting tricked). I think the evidence is pointing towards Shalladin, however that doesn't mean it's the only viable ship, simply what I think is the most likely. I generally stay away from talking about what is the most endearing/interesting/functional as that is super subjective, unless there's a particularly egregious example of a dysfunctional relationship.
  21. Is anyone claiming that Shallan is infatuated with Kaladin? By arguing against a more severe argument instead of the reasonable one, you seem to be attempting to increase the evidence required. I mean I don't particularly enjoy it as it doesn't really contribute to a discussion imo. The whole love == stalking thing is damnation ridiculous as well. Kaladin had a bunch of stuff going on when he exited the chasms, are you saying he should have been more concerned with his prospective love life than the impending assassination of the king that he OK'ed? Or how his bond with Syl and consequently his ability to protect others was effectively gone? The thing is that even without other stuff going on a character simply does not need to stalk their crush in order for readers to understand that said crush exists. We had ~3 chapters after they all arrived at Urithiru? Not exactly a damning argument for a relationship that isn't existent in any aspect other than attraction. I would also say Shallan is decidedly not "devoted" to Adolin. There's a lot of physical attraction there and an appreciation for Adolin's character, but devotion is a whole different ball park. I agree that it is a good start. The problem really comes in with both Kaladin and the relative shallowness of Shallan and Adolin's interactions. At the start that relationship was *super* shallow with Shallan entirely faking it (aside from finding Adolin attractive), it got better over time, however in that same time we had some rather intense scenes between Kaladin and Shallan, with Kaladin explicitly attracted to her by the end. This stuff is going to have to be dealt with, regardless of the resolution. Differently than thinking of him like she did at the end of the book? We've only seen them consider each other once after the chasm (and no, I don't agree that they should be pining over each other more, there was a whole lot going on). On Kaladin's side it was a reasonably straight forward scene expressing his attraction to Shallan, on the reverse it was certainly less straight forward. However I think there was something there from Shallan's side, particularly considering she directly compared him to Adolin favourably and when you consider how Navani described Dalinar. Now I believe I said I think Shallan's on the 'edge' of a crush on Kaladin, really by this I mean I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a direct scene confirming it even at the start of the next book, the groundwork seems to be there to me. I'm going to relink the quote Seloun used on the first page: "She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance. She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit. Perhaps Kaladin could hate that." Frankly I can't see a reasonable argument suggesting Kaladin doesn't 'like' Shallan based on this (which are his most recent thoughts on the matter). The issue could have been raised several times in the chasms and it was not, most notably when Kaladin decided to distract the chasmfiend. I just find it interesting that the most obvious problems central to both characters' personalities weren't an issue at all.
  22. I feel like you're making much weaker arguments here than you were at the beginning of the thread. Direct quotes have been dragged out that roughly directly contradict what you're saying at the end. Your response to that is to want *more* contradictions? That seems terrible to me. Kaladin 'liking' Shallan at the end of WoR is pretty simple to show, as Seloun has done (at least imo). Ofc Shallan's potential feelings for Kaladin involve substantially more conjecture, as it stands now it seems to be on the very edge of a crush. Hmm, that's strange, I would think that if anything Syl would be unhappy if Kaladin doesn't act on his feelings (if they continue in the future). Syl has shown that while she is an honourspren, she ultimately cares more about Kaladin than the others (in particular the issue with Kaladin having to kill Parshendi). Kaladin hasn't made an oath to stay away from Shallan, I really don't see the issue here. This whole thing is starting to smack of a Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar parallel when you talk of Kaladin being morally unable to act on his feelings. Indeed, there should logically be two rather huge issues here; Shallan's need to lie *should* drive a wedge between her and Kaladin naturally, however you should note that Kaladin is actually the one she is most honest with. The other one is Kaladin's predisposition to try to protect everyone. I mean this issue is so big for Kaladin that it'll be a substantial part of his character development for him to find his answer here. However it's Adolin that Shallan reacts negatively to on this issue, not Kaladin. I find this rather interesting as it doesn't work out like you'd logically expect in WoR.
  23. It seems people are forgetting that Syl does seem to have an increasingly strong moral code outside of simply prioritising oaths. She has never liked it when Kaladin thought of all lighteyes negatively (or when he was too moody in general).
  24. Kaladin and Bridge Four deciding to turn around and save Dalinar .
  25. I don't know, I honestly give Sadeas points for significantly more self awareness than Amaram has. Sadeas knew he did it for himself and while that might better the country as a whole, it's ultimately because he doesn't want to back down against Dalinar that he is so antagonistic. Amaram on the other hand seems to have noble goals in the long run, however it's either fundamentally stupid or selfish for a Son of Honor to go against the only KR ideal that is common to all orders (note I assume the SoH would be aware of that ideal, as other groups were). I think Amaram is a lot more of a scumbag overall, hell immediately after his friendship with Dalinar falls through his first thought is regret for letting Kaladin live rather than how he treated Kal's squad. As far as a fight goes I'd wager Amaram would win it, even though we haven't ever(?) seen him fight. Sadeas was portrayed to be much more of a threat politically than he was physically.
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