Haelbarde
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Posts posted by Haelbarde
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This was super fun! Thanks for running! And well done everyone. Your early choices to sow chaos Mat were great, and if not for Archer's bold lie that helped direct everyone to Devo I reckon you might have had the game. And nicely played Archer.
The uncertainty in all the information was doing my head in >> but it made for a wonderful puzzle. Feels like there's stuff to tweak, and I'd be curious how it'd fair at double the player count, but seems quite workable a ruleset.
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Follow up post in case this mergesJust now, Haelbarde said:So I had wanted to get Mat's response to what actions he did for Night 1, but seems like he doesn't intend to share, so we'll go ahead and post this anyway.
To clarify, something that contributes to me being generally suspicious of Mat is that he hasn't (that I can see) made any claim of his N1 actions, when in a all villagers sharing information to solve the puzzle, that'd be the first thing I'd expect a villager to do. Rather, he conveniently doesn't bring his role up when Raven mysteriously seems to have had their action blocked. Evil Innkeeper Mat could well be responsible.
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Yay! No more Ooklas!
So I had wanted to get Mat's response to what actions he did for Night 1, but seems like he doesn't intend to share, so we'll go ahead and post this anyway.
Alright, so my assumption is that there is a Forsaken with one Darkfriend ally. They cannot communicate with each other privately, so the only communication they've had as in thread where we can see it.
I think I'm willing to accept Aeoryi's claim of being victim to the bubble of evil. Doesn't mean they're not a darkfriend (though I don't think they are), but it does mean that they are not the Forsaken.
Regarding Devo:
N1 Archer as Wisdom determined Devotary was Forsaken
N1 Aeoryi as Gossip got that either Devotary was village or Forsaken (but not a darkfriend)
N1 Raven as Veteran attempted to kill Devotary, but nothing happened
N1 Wizard as Watchman received Devotary as their second name
So, with my N0 intel, either I was poisoned/drunk and one of Wizard and JNV are the Forsaken, or I was not, in which case those two are not Forsaken and Devotary is able to. So it's a matter of whether Mat really got me drunk or not N0.It is possible that Archer was given incorrect information C1 (bubble of evil), and Aeoryi's information doesn't give a positive ID. It's possible that Wizard was drunk N0 and so a village read of Aeoryi doesn't help support Devo being a DF or Forsaken. It's possible that the bubble of evil changed Aeoyri's role C2. But the question is how did Raven's ability fail? Only way they don't die is if they didn't use it (feels unlikely), or they were poisoned/drunk. Which means either JNV or Mat is truthful about their roles and is evil.
If JNV is an evil apothecary, then that means that I was not drunk N0, and so Wizard and JNV are not Forsaken. Which means that Mat was lying about being an innkeeper, making Mat Forsaken, with JNV blocking the kill. This is trolly on JNV's part rather than necessary.
If Mat is an evil innkeeper, I think that means I was drunk N0, and one of my targets is forsaken. evil Mat could be covering for evil Wizard, but I'm not thinking that's likely, though flagging it as a possibility to look back on later. In this world, JNV is Forsaken, while Mat trolled Raven by getting drunk. Still inclined to believe this tbh, but let's keep going.
If the bubble of evil hit village Mat instead of Archer, it wouldn't cancel the action, just give false information. My own scan would still be affected by drunkenness, so it would turn the combination of our scans into saying Wizard is Forsaken. But if the C1 bubble of evil didn't hit Archer, then we've got a contradiction with the Archer claim of Devotary as Forsaken. Only way that works is if Wizard and Archer are evil buddies, I think. But this doesn't explain why Raven's action failed. Because I don't see village Mat or JNV blocking Raven. So I don't see this as likely.So what if Mat didn't make me drunk N0. Possibly in this scenario they are not an Innkeeper. That means JNV and Wizard are clear, and that Aeoryi and Devotary are different teams. A village read of Aeoryi, makes Devo a darkfriend or a Forsaken, and taken with Aeoryi's Gossip, puts them as a Forsaken. In a world where Aeroyi is truthful about the C2 bubble of evil but is a darkfriend, this still allows Devo to be Forsaken, but does still allow them to be village. But I'm more inclined to give the Aeoryi village read. We have to give a reason for the Raven kill failing. I don't think evil!Raven makes sense in this world - an evil veteran wouldn't ever want to show their ability, and I think would be more likely to fake claim something less verifiable. I guess it's possible there's a Devotary/Raven team up. But then that makes it more likely for there to be a village Mat who would have made me drunk N0. So I still don't see it.
Hrm. This is the mess. Outside of my own alignment the thing I'm most sure about is that Aeoryi is probably telling the truth about the C2 bubble, and so cannot be the Forsaken.
If we go on gut reads, I'm feeling off about Devo and Matt, particularly with how they're posting and voting. I can probably go into it more later, but it's under 45 min to rollover so later. So what if Devo = Forsaken, and Mat = Darkfriend Innkeeper.
I think it works if I got hit with the bubble of evil, while evil innkeeper Mat does hit both Wizard and I as claimed. I believe the bubble of Evil would mean my results couldn't be relied on as with drunkeness. That then opens up all of the Devo actions suggesting Devo to be evil as being successful.
So with that in mind, we'll go with Devotary instead of Mat.
1 hour ago, Aeoryi said:Devo
.. @DrakeMarshall/ @Kasimir VC please?
I know Drake just ninja'd me again, but here's one with my vote change incorporated.
Vote Tally
(5) Devotary: Wizard{1}, JNV{1}, Archer{1}, Aeoryi{1}, Hael{2}
(0) Mat: Devotary{1}, Hael{1}
(1) JNV: Mat{1}
(1) Hael: Devotary
(1) No Execution: Raven{1}(5) Devotary: Wizard, JNV, Archer, Aeoryi, Hael
(1) JNV: Mat
(1) Hael: Devotary
(1) No Execution: Raven
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New post that will probably mergeGoing to put a vote on Mat while I wait for a response.
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@Mat What scans did you get last night?
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I asked when Bubble of Evil things happen, and the answer was at the end of Night turns.
@GMs - does that mean a Day result won't ever be effected by the bubble?
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14 minutes ago, Ookla the Resolute said:
Right, they can't be an unrelated Darkfriend, they're either good, or they're Forsaken.
Only way Devo is Forsaken is if Mat lied about getting Wizard and I drunk, meaning Wizard and JNV are village, and Wizards first name isn't wasted. I'd be inclined to believe that if Mat was lying, he's a darkfriend. Would leave their role up in the air a bit. If this is the world we're in, strong chance that Wizard's next name is either Mat or Devo.
2 minutes ago, Ookla the Resolute said:Known Scans:
- Aeoryi could be Darkfiend, Forsaken, or Village (from wiz, drunken) - Watchman
- Devo is the Forsaken (From Aeoryi) - Gossip T/F 1
- Devo is Village (From Aeoryi) - Gossip T/F 2
- Hael is Village (from Mat) - Inkeeper
- Wiz is Village (from Mat) - Inkeeper
- Archer is Village (devo) - Gleeman
- Neither JNV nor Wiz is Forsaken (from Hael, drunken) - Elder
Just flagging that I'd put question marks on the drunk things, and Paradigm is also claiming to have Wisdomed if Devo was the Forsaken, I think.
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22 minutes ago, Ookla the Resolute said:
Okay
Does anyone have the claimslist?
- Ookla the Raveness/Wizard claimed Watchman, getting Ookla the Resolute/Aeoyri as their (allegedly drunken) result.
- Ookla the Resolute/Aeoryi claimed Gossip, who last suggested they target Devo today to get their one truth and lie from the GMs.
- JNV claimed Apothecary, and that they chose not to use their ability last night.
- Ookla the Destined/Mat claimed Innkeeper, suggesting they scanned Ookla the Raveness/Wizard and Hael as Village last night, making the pair drunk.
- Ookla of Ravens claimed Veteran and has not used their ability yet.
- Devotary of Spontaneity claimed Gleeman, saying that they scanned Ookla the Paradigm/Archer as Village last night.
- Haelbarde claimed Elder, saying they learned that JNV and Ookla the Raveness/Wizard were not the Forsaken, although if drunk as a result of being targeted by Ookla the Destined/Mat, then the result means that one of JNV and Ookla the Raveness/Wizard has to be the Forsaken.
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Ookla the Paradigm claimed Wisdom and has not used their ability yet.
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13 minutes ago, Ookla the Destined said:
If you wait until D2 to exe me/whoever, the only difference is that you're buying yourself more time to gather information.
Exactly. The whole point of this game is the village trying to gather information, so if executing you now gets better information later, then that seems worthwhile.
14 minutes ago, Ookla the Destined said:Come D3, all the info will still be there. It doesn't really matter when I'm confirmed, except for that it's more useful to wait. From my PoV yall are shooting yourself in the foot here by exeing me because you're successfully decreasing the amount of info gathering time right after we agreed we wanted to maximize that time
Or are you saying that executing you Day 2 gives us more info gathering time? Because as I said earlier, if we don't execute you know, there's the potential for village info gatherers wasting their time verifying you instead of immediately know that you and your scans are clean and can move on to verifying others. I guess I'm not understanding your point yet.
18 minutes ago, Ookla the Destined said:If you think JNV is Forsaken in 2/3 worlds, why are you voting me?
He's only Forsaken in the world where you are a Village Innkeeper telling the truth. If you are any combination of a Villager who is lying about being an Innkeeper or your scans, or a Darkfriend who is or is not an Innkeeper, JNV is either 50/50 a Forsaken, or is village. If everyone is willing to trust you, and so by your scan trust me, then we can execute JNV and be done with it. Otherwise, we need to verify you to know which world we are in.
Plus keep in mind, we do have the Veteran (in theory) waiting to try and kill the Forsaken. JNV could be their target tonight if they wanted to use it that way.
4 minutes ago, Ookla the Destined said:Um, well, can you like ask the GMs how it works, because they said you could do that for specific roles and that seems like really useful information
The only things stopping me from voting JNV mainly are that we don't actually know how your role works and that your claim seems literally perfect for a Forsaken to make. Like, you waited until everyone else had claimed, and then claimed a role that requires zero accountability for the rest of the game?
Like I said, I talked to Kas about it (and Drake has since weighed in) and the indication is that the second interpretation is correct. Basically that one of my results is guaranteed to be incorrect. And so given "this player is not a Forsaken" is incorrect, that means one of my two results has to be a Forsaken.
I claimed last because I was asleep while all of you were claiming (except JNV - I did have opportunity to claim before them I suppose).
And are you suggesting that in fact you didn't scan me or otherwise have serious reason to doubt that your result was accurate?
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13 minutes ago, Ookla the Destined said:
Exeing anyone, not just me, would be a foolish thing to do D1. We already talked about this. No execution. If y'all want to clear my slot D2 that's fine but there is literally no incentive to doing it D1.
There's incentive in that it lets other information gathering roles to operate on confidently on knowledge gained by your claims during the next cycle, rather than waiting until the last cycle, and having more chances of a bubble of evil messing things up.
Now, that being said, thinking about my role further, and checking with Kas about the interpretation of rules, I do have interesting information to bring to the table now.
My role is the that of Elder. At the end of Night 0 I was told that two players (JNV and Raveness/Wizard) are not the Forsaken.
With Destined/Mat having claimed to make me drunk, I figured there was little point to sharing the information, as I had interpreted falsifying my information as meaning that "these players cannot be the Forsaken" would be turned into "these players might not be the Forsaken", which is effectively useless. Everyone knows that any collection of other players might not be the Forsaken.
However, the other way of looking at it, and I think this is the correct way to interpret it, if I am drunk, and so my information has to be false, then the only way that my information is false is if one of the two indicated players (JNV and Raveness/Wizard) is the Forsaken.
And that makes things interesting.
The options are as follows, provided there was no interference from a bubble of evil:
- Destined/Mat is a Village Innkeeper. They scanned Raveness/Wizard and I as village, but made me drunk, meaning that one of JNV or Raveness/Wizard is the Forsaken. And with Mat scanning Raveness/Wizard as village, that means JNV is the Forsaken.
- Destined/Mat is the Forsaken. Then I was not drunk last night, and so I have an independent scan of JNV and Raveness/Wizard being village.
- Destined/Mat is a Darkfriend Innkeeper. In which case I am drunk, and one of Raveness/Wizard and JNV is the Forsaken, but we can no longer rely on Destined/Mat's scan of Raveness/Wizard being accurate.
I need to work through what the best course of action is now though. Without thinking about it further, I'll keep on Destined/Mat as I would like to know how to interpret my information.
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Vote Tally
(0) Devotary: Resolute{1}
(0) Ravens: Destined{1}
(2) Destined/Mat: Ravens{1}, Pardigm{2}, Hael{2}
(1) Hael: Destined{2}
(0) JNV: Resolute{2}
(0) Paradigm/Archer: Devotary{1}
(1) Resolute/Aeoryi: Paradigm{1}, Raveness{1}
(0) Raveness/Wizard: Devotary{2}
(2) No Execution: Hael{1}, JNV{1}, Resolute{3}(2) Destined/Mat: Pardigm, Hael
(2) No Execution: JNV, Resolute
(1) Hael: Destined
(1) Resolute/Aeoryi: Raveness0 -
55 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:
Actually, I am feeling inclined to execute Ookla the Destined.
Either they are:
- Village Innkeeper, in which case we can get good odds on confirming that they are village along with myself and Wizard based on their scans, drastically narrowing down the options for Forsaken.
- Darkfriend Innkeeper, in which case we know to not trust anything Ookla the Destined has claimed (we can assume that Wiz and I were drunk for C1 if we otherwise verify that either of us are village, and certainly it means Wiz and I can know that we were drunk given we know our alignments, but it does open up the possibility of one of us being a Darkfriend and there's an unknown third person that was unknowingly drunk
- Forsaken, knowing that the Innkeeper isn't in the game, and using the claim to sow chaos and distrust of results throughout the game, in which case executing them wins the game.
While I've not shifted my vote yet, flagging that someone probably needs to talk me out of this if they don't want me to move my vote to Mat before the end of cycle.
New Post that will probably be MergedActually I am going to shift my vote from No Vote to Ookla the Destined / Mat as I've realised that verifying them also lets us have more confidence in any future scans they make, if they turn out to indeed be a Village Innkeeper.
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Just now, Ookla the Raveness said:
We lose if two villagers die, throughout the whole game so if it goes as your suggesting, then no it won't go all as planned cuz we'll have lost.
No, we lose if two villagers die to the execution (the day vote). The veteran dying at night, or someone with the same alignment as the fool dying at night, do not count towards the two village execution total.
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Best case scenario, Ookla the Destined gets executed, and we verify 3 players as village.
Night 1, Ravens tries to kill the Forsaken, gets it wrong, and dies. That verifies both Ravens and their target as not the Forsaken.That means that Day 2 we've good odds on knowing that 5 of the 8 players are not the Forsaken, without refering to any other scans.
2 minutes ago, Ookla the Paradigm said:No-claim Hael is probably my Forsaken suspect right now
I don't claim without very good reason as a matter of policy. People who've played with me before probably can verify that. Kas would know best, but Kas is the GM and can't weigh in on things. But I can certainly go find links to the various posts I've made in the past about Op Sec if you'd like.
I've not ruled out claiming yet, but I've not spent enough time considering the matter. I don't immediately see the value in doing so. Well, maybe. Give me a little longer to think.
Vote Tally
(0) Devotary: Resolute{1}
(0) Ravens: Destined{1}
(0-1) Destined/Mat: Ravens{1}, Pardigm{2}?
(1) Hael: Destined{2}
(1) JNV: Resolute{2}
(0) Paradigm/Archer: Devotary{1}
(1-2) Resolute/Aeoryi: Paradigm{1}, Raveness{1}
(0) Raveness/Wizard: Devotary{2}
(1) No Execution: Hael{1}(1?) Destined/Mat: Pardigm
(1) Hael: Destined
(1) JNV: Resolute
(1?) Resolute/Aeoryi:Paradigm, Raveness
(1) No Execution: Hael2 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:Greetings people of Helgen. I give to you a vote tally! Heck, it might even be the correct tally!
Vote Tally:JNV (1) - Aeoryi / Ookla the Resolute
Hael (1) - Mat / Ookla the Destined
Aeoryi (1) - Wizard / Ookla the Raveness
Mat / Ookla the Destined (1) - Archer / Ookla the Paradigm
No Execution (1) - Hael
You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
Well it agrees with mine provided we allow new votes without retracting the previous!
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Seeing as we have a veteran claim and we've also had just about every possible way of interpreting how it works wrong, the veteran names a Forsaken in thread during the night.
- If they get the name correct, the game ends with a village victory.
- If they get it wrong, they die, presumably giving us a most likely trustworthy flip to be able to know whether they're village or not, but certainly prove themselves to not be the Forsaken without costing us a village execution.
- If nothing happens, it means they were poisoned/drunk, and any claimed apocatharies and innkeepers are suspect.
4 hours ago, Ookla the Paradigm said:I think you must hit the Forsaken, which is a specific Darkfriend. Even if you hit the other elim, you die instead. Oh you figured that out. Basically it's most useful as a threat to deal with a Dragon claimant who is making us scared to exe them.
I don't think it's useful at all. Forsaken only claims Dragon if they think the Dragon claim won't get executed. If we think a Dragon claimant is the Forsaken, then we execute them as that way the game ends.
Personally, I'd be just as happy to get a safe flip of Raven to be able to rule them out as a Forsaken by them missing their attack.
3 hours ago, Kasimir said:The question assumes when drunk, we select for what Wiz was supposed to see first in terms of category. Let's just say the category doesn't come first in the RNG process when drunk.
My interpretation of this is that normally:
Night 0: GMs roll dice to choose a random category. Then they roll to choose a random player in that category.
Night 1: Which ever category chosen N0 is excluded, so coin flip between the other two, then randomly choose a player from that category
Night 2: Randomly choose a player from the last category.However, in our situation, if we choose to trust Ookla the Destined's claims, then
Night 0: Random player on the player list chosen with no regard to categories.
Night 1: As no categories have been chosen from yet, there's a chance at getting any of the 3 categories.
Night 2: Assuming they weren't poisoned N1, then the category of player from N1 is removed from the list, and there's a coin flip on which category is used for this night. Then a player is chosen randomly from the chosen category.Which means, as long as we accept the claims of Innkeeper and Watchman, then we just disregard last night's result of Ookla the Resolute, and rather wait and see what results we get N1 and N2 as we will know that those two results will be players from different alignments. It's possible they could be darkfriend and forsaken but these scans aren't taken in isolation, there's other sources of information that can be used to cross check these.
Going to pause here and vote for No Execution now while I think of it. It doesn't pay to leave votes on the table - we don't want darkfriends to hammer and waste an execution.
More thoughts still to come.
Merge 1:
Actually, I am feeling inclined to execute Ookla the Destined.
Either they are:
- Village Innkeeper, in which case we can get good odds on confirming that they are village along with myself and Wizard based on their scans, drastically narrowing down the options for Forsaken.
- Darkfriend Innkeeper, in which case we know to not trust anything Ookla the Destined has claimed (we can assume that Wiz and I were drunk for C1 if we otherwise verify that either of us are village, and certainly it means Wiz and I can know that we were drunk given we know our alignments, but it does open up the possibility of one of us being a Darkfriend and there's an unknown third person that was unknowingly drunk
- Forsaken, knowing that the Innkeeper isn't in the game, and using the claim to sow chaos and distrust of results throughout the game, in which case executing them wins the game.
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Sigh. Y'all need to spend more time reading the rules. Give me a bit to reread thread to try and actually parse what was being said.
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6 hours ago, Ookla the Destined said:
Cool, so if there's a Fool they can claim D2 and we can exe them get two flips for the price of one? Unless I'm reading that wrong? Realistically the Fool is village but knowing two villagers going into D3 may be huge depending on other factors. This game feels very play-by-ear. Fool, if you exist, definitely don't claim now. Idk if being drunk/poisoned messes with your abilities but I don't want to find out.
We don't actually have to execute the Fool to gain the benefit of one of their teammates flipping.
QuoteOnce a game, if you are in the top two trains by the end of the Day, a player with the same alignment as you dies to mob justice that Night.
If the leading train were "No Vote" and the runner up was the fool, then I reckon that'd trigger it, getting us a free night kill to probably learn which side both the fool and the random victim are on.
QuoteVeteran: You are a former soldier, returned to Helgen from battles at the Blightborder. Your military skills have not rusted, however. Once a game, publicly select a player during the Night to name as the Forsaken. If you are correct, they die. If you are wrong, you die.
Is there a reason for the Veteran to not do this? It safely lets them flip (although there's chances that information is conveyed wrong per the bubble of evil rules). And obviously there's a 16.67% chance of just immediately ending the game, if there's one present. Though I guess be cautious of evil innkeepers or apothecaries, and don't make such a claim too early. Although, I think it'd be obvious if they were the target of such an ability as:
QuotePlayers will not know if they are drunk or poisoned. Their abilities will also not work. If their ability is an information ability, they will be told false information. If their ability has an effect, their ability will simply fail, although they will believe it has succeeded.
Their ability failing should mean that no one dies. Which sorta makes being told it has succeeded clearly wrong
EDIT:
Sorry, that should be 14.29% I think - 8 players, but excluding yourself means its a 1/7 shot at hitting the Forsaken blind, not 1/6.
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4 minutes ago, Ookla the Paradigm said:
New strategy just dropped: put one vote on everyone at the start of every Day. That triggers this request, forcing a Dragon claim. I don't think revealing the village dragon has any downsides? If we get two dragon claimants it becomes a 50/50 proposition, which is better than our standard odds of hitting an elim. More likely outcome is they don't claim, taking that mechanism off the board, assuming this request has teeth.
Hmm. I don't care for it because it's also well possible there's only a false dragon in this game, and we don't want to execute them thinking them to be the Dragon Reborn.
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1 minute ago, Ookla the Destined said:
I get the feeling voting Kas D3 is not the path to success
9 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:but I need to read the rules some more, brb.
I've concluded that Kas is the Dark One and his victory is inevitable... >>
Or maybe I need to go watch some One Night Werewolf playthroughs.
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Just now, Ookla the Destined said:
Kas lock v as well tbh
Usually you have to wait until day 3 and see if he's executed, if I recall correctly.
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Sigh. @Kasimir, why did you let me sign up to a game during Ookla season!?
Agrees that now is probably not the time to share information and I'm almost certainly voting no vote for D1, but I need to read the rules some more, brb.
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Mazrim Taim has entered the chat.
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11 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:
Isn't there that other random thin one with the dramatically long *fantasy* title :eyes:
There's also an impending random thin one with a slightly less dramatically long fantasy title that has a higher chance of coming out this year than the 3rd one I think?
But anyhow, not reading KKC didn't stop me playing the last three games.
...
Not that I'm saying actually reading the books is stopping me playing this game.
(They're good books)
((But to be clear, I'm not playing this game))
EDIT:
13 hours ago, Ashbringer said:Signing up as... Issal, a young al-chemist who really doesn't know the University that well. I'll need to figure out what I'm submitting later.
Keep in mind I've never read KKC
I definitely endorse reading the rules before the game starts though
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Sees a Kas game, is interested in playing.
Reads the rules.
39 minutes ago, Kasimir said:Players are reminded that this game is a blackout, flipless game. Whilst we have done our best to ensure a balanced and fun experience, it is possible you may also find the game intensely frustrating. Please seriously consider if you can handle such a game format before signing up, in order to avoid disappointment.
Just look away, look away There's nothing but horror and inconvenience on the way Ask any stable person, "Should I [play]?", and they will say "Look away, look away, look away"Maybe I'll be a spectre.
SpoilerIt's hard to fathom how the [SEers] manage to live through it Or how a decent person like yourself would even want to view it:eyes:
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AG 10/AN 14 Finale
in Sanderson Elimination
Posted
Thanks everyone! And well done @Stick. - was loads of fun being evil with you - thanks for keeping us updated in the Spiked doc even when the rest of you left you.
Was also nice to play alongside you @Faerie Braids, good to meet you!