Zinfandale

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  1. Hello everyone. I've yet to see a topic dedicated to the philosophical implications and discussions inherent to the SA. I figured it might be fun not only to philosophers and intellectuals, but to the average reader, to discuss the moral code(s) present in the two novels thus far, how these codes are justified, and the nature of good and evil in Roshar as a whole. Some starter questions: -Kaladin (but really Honor) holds individual life, and the protection and preservation of such, paramount to societal and/or collectivized "goodness". This is evident in the fact when he chooses to protect Elhokar from assasination. The assasins value the "greater good". Kaladin values natural rights, namely one's right to live. If what is good is destructive of individual, inalienable rights (life, liberty, and property), it is deemed dishonorable, and Sylphrena recognizes this breach of conduct and refuses to assist Kaladin in the pursuit of said destruction. Do you concur with this notion of individualism as being "right" and "honorable"? I certainly do. -The Order of Skybreakers value "the law" above all else. Surely different cultures breed different systems of justice. Which is supreme, and why? Do the Skybreakers themselves have an intrinsic system of justice? Is their code superior to that of other's? Which is to be obeyed, and when, and why? -Odium represnts Hatred. Most evil codes of conduct put death as their standard of value, but Brandon has chosen hatred. What to think of this? I can think of a gazillion more questions on which to speculate but figured this would be a good start and fun place to have discourse for both lovers of philosophy and Roshar. Looking forward to talking with some of you guys and gals.
  2. Those are all good points Rooster. Brandon seems to spend more time focsuing on the more grandiose aspects of the fantasy genre, leaving out darker themes of gore, rape,death, and torture which are heavily prevalent in other series. As for the slavery point, I think Brandon uses this to help establish a connection between our world and his own. Opression is universal in our world, so his inclusion of a lower or slave class helps readers to further associate with his fantastic, alien worlds. Your "end justifying the means" comment is the major theme explored in WOR. Does the assassination of Gavilar ("means") justify the seemingly better-off kingdom ("ends")? Windrunners say no. So Kaladin says no. The exploration of the topic of force is something Sanderson will use frequently throughout the series. Is it right to use force? When and why? Is it right to meet force with force? Is it right to initiate force with a seemingly praiseworthy endgoal in mind? Is it right to sumbit oneself to force, taking no action oneself? All of these will be intertwined into the ideals and philosophies of the Orders of KR.
  3. Oh. Sorry for ruining it
  4. I'm simply asserting that an objective or universal morality is neither present nor practiced by the KR.Life is of objective value since all other values preceed from it. Windrunners use the ideal of protection as their agent for achieving moral purity. Skybreakers value law above life. Had a universal or intrinsic or natural moral code been instilled in all men, these different standards of value would not exist. I know what you're thinking: People can simply rebel or deny their intrinsic moral code. The fact that they do, doesn't mean the code itself does not exist. And you're right, to an extent, but not on Roshar. Spren are pieces and imitations of creation itself. Had a universal morality been present, how is that there are spren which value law above life, life above the collective, and simply the nature of truth and lies? All of the Orders seem to have moral codes with different standards of value. Not a universal nor intrinsic one, which is a quality of an objective morality. And you're right about how Syl perceives morality. She doesn't assert it's wrong for Kaladin. She asserts it is wrong. But how you go from this, to the view that this wrongness is objective, I do not know. Skybreakers do not recognize this. Cryptics are apathetic about it. Different Orders and their respective spren hold different standards of what is right. Kaladin's however, is the only one rooted in objectivity (thus far). I deny the metaphysical and universal presence of an intrinsic moral code. Again, simply upholding an objective value as part of your morality does not mean at all that the code is objective. Certain spren have chosen certain ideologies to uphold, much like the humans with which they have bonded. Their standards of value are not inherent. And even if an objective morality was persistent, I have no idea how we could even recognize such a thing as the deities on Roshar do not seem to be interventional ones and I'm not aware of how any standard of objective morality is possible without divine intervention or design. As for your comments on Cryptics, I agree. I apologize for reading your position as spren as a whole. Your last paragraph is in the province of psychology and neuroscience and philosophy in the real world. I don't see how these topics are relevant to the SA. We could discuss the implications of Kant's ethics, Rand's egoism, and many other topics philosophical in nature in a different place. We're dealing with a fantastical world, not the real one.
  5. Yeah,but it's got to sound majestic and profound, lest someone swear an Oath during the course of everyday conversation. And plus it just sounds cooler.
  6. That's a good point. Perhaps a different order will take on the role of destruction and agression, rather than protection. I'd imagine them swearing an Oath along the lines of, "I will destroy all those whose are themselves destroyers of what is right."
  7. That's actually a super interesting concept. Imagine a spren bonding to someone with the purpose of corrupting or changing them. Like an honorspren bonding with Szeth to influence or alter his outlook. It's like spiritual infiltration. And they offer the power of Investiture only when the person they're bonded to "obeys" the spren's moral POV. This would be very effective, I should think, in changing someone quite a bit.
  8. All of the Orders ascribe to a relativistic morality. Not just Lightweavers and their spren. Simply just because you hold objective values (such as life--it's objective since value is that which you act to gain and keep and action and keeping is impossible without the prerequisite of life) as part of your moral code does not mean the code itself is objective. Windrunners' standard of value is honor which, so far, has been deemed as upholding a protective role of individual life and personal loyalty. Simply because life is of objective value, to any rational person, does not mean Kaladin's code as a whole is objective. All of the KR are moral relativists, holding different standards of value for themselves as well as the spren which bond to them, namely life, truth(s), law, etc. But I would say that truth and law hold nowhere near the amount of objective value life does, if at all, making Kaladin's code superior, at least to a moralist, for truth holds no objective value when there is nothing to perceive truth, and law is meaningless in the absence of beings to govern. Skybreakers: These are bound to be an very interesting lot. There's going to be quite a few moral conundrums to be sure. As for your last comment, I'd say that's simply a product of the majority of philosophy having very little practical or obvious value to the untrained or average thinker. Morality and ethics actually affect people substantially. Abstractions about the nature of existence and questions like, "Why is the universe not the opposite of the universe?" are pointless and valueless to the majority of people. What is good and what is evil though, is of great interest to many people. Oh, and one more thing-I don't think spren are amoral at all. Sentient beings which choose and bond to people precisely because of their moral attributes certainly makes me think that spren have some intrinsic moral values as well. Otherwise, why bond? Why value humans' qualities? It's silly to say that which is attracted to moral qualities is itself disinterested or unaware in/of moral qualities. Why would something which doesn't understand or recognize honor choose to "claim" (as Syl put it) people who exhibit certain, particular honorable attributes? They wouldn't.
  9. Adolin was ABSOLUTELY justified in his murder of Sadeas. Why: Adolin was not the aggressor. He did not initiate force. Sadeas did. Sadeas abandoned and betrayed thousands of innocent "allies". He had been working profusely to undermine, disrupt, and wreck the Alethi political and social construct and had been more than willing to use force to achieve these ends, as we've seen. It is not right to *initiate* the use of force. It is right to meet force, with force. If you don't deal with evil, evil will deal with you, without regret or mercy. [sadeas's face darkened. "I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries.] He even admitted he would continue his destruction. You do not let such wickedness persist. You eliminate it. Justice and fair prosecution is irrelevant in the face of evil. Adolin was right. There is no conflict (in rightness) between the actions of Kaladin and those of Adolin. Kaladin was the protector. Adolin the preventer. Both using force to meet force. Justified and right.
  10. Perhaps it is for that very reason why cryptic and honorspren aren't exactly buddies. Crytpics assert there are "truths" while I'm sure Sylphrena sees only one, not mutliple, paths of being honorable and right. Cryptics are more subjective, relative, and situational while honorspren are objective and have a "one-track" vision of what is truly right. They see the "big picture" as irrelevant to honor, for it is an individual notion. I'm certain these two POVs or ideologies will continue to clash throughout the series. Some people could even say Kaladin was acting selfishly by not allowing Elhokar to die because he put his own, individual loyalty to the king, above the greater good. I just find it interesting that Sanderson has chosen the individual over the collective, when it comes to what is right.
  11. Hi guys, I'm fairly new here and just wanted to clarify something. I just updated the prologue for Steelheart, and since none of the chapters have summaries yet, I will probably be updating those, along with a bunch of TWoK chapters. Anyways, the summaries that are already in place are extremely brief. Is the longevity of these sort of articles something of a standard that I am not familiar with? I was looking over the summaries of TWoK and The Mistborn Trilogy, and the summaries are either absent, or provide very rudimentary information. Should I not go as in depth with these or something? Thanks.
  12. Hi all, I'm just curious. Where is everyone getting all of this outside information regarding the Cosmere and its workings? You guys have some pretty advanced theories and inside content that doesn't seem to be available simply by analyzing Sanderson's books. Is the majority of this coming from signings, FAQ sessions, podcasts, what? Even though most of it is speculation (but awesome speculation ), I still am confuzzled as to how you guys develop all of these thoughts. I would love to learn more about the backstory surrounding Sanderson's fantasy novels and it seems that the books aren't ample sources for this kind of info. (yet...) Thanks in advance. P.S. Your wiki is amazing and I will be helping to update all of the Chapter Summaries that are missing for TWoK, The Mistborn Trilogy, and Steelheart (I've only done the intro. so far so this one will take some work ).
  13. Sounds great, thanks. I'll just try and err on the side of excess and you guys can hack away at all my frilly junk
  14. Hello everyone. I'm Alec, a high school student, and avid fantasy reader in the US. I recently read the Mistborn trilogy and TWoK (almost finished with Steelheart). I found both to be pretty friggin amazing and have decided to put my two cents in here. Some of the theories you guys have come up with are awesome and hopefully I'll be able to contribute something worth reading once in a while. I'll probably update your wiki mostly but we'll see. Thanks. P.S. Can't wait for WOR!