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Greywatch last won the day on February 24

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592 Dakhor Monk


About Greywatch

  • Birthday January 23

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    The Great North
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    Fandom, genre fiction in any medium, theology, the outdoors, long drives on the highway.

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  1. Ha, thank you, I deeply appreciate hearing it. <3
  2. You are not! I adore the idea, myself.
  3. He doesn't mistreat them. He's stiff and distant and has a generally angry energy he aims at everybody. It's his anger that people keep saying he should stop, even though he hasn't acted on it inappropriately. Even his biggest moment of hatred in WoR wasn't misaimed at some random lighteyes, but Elhokar, who had caused him and his family direct harm - and he still chose in the end to help Elhokar. The way that he's expressed his anger has been perfectly fine. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that people are upset that he's angry at all. But feeling anger is not a moral action and it shouldn't be put in the same category as being racist.
  4. Does Kaladin go and best up lighteyes just because? Nope. As I've said many, many times in this thread, the impact of what Kaladin actually does about his anger is negligible. He says words, and some people get offended and angry that he would dare. That's about it.
  5. Anger is not morally incorrect, and when you run into situation after situation where lighteyes mistreated them, Kaladin and others traumatized like him are not obligated to perform their anger in a way that's palatable. They have a right to their anger, and to keep it without being considered morally reprehensible for it. What happened to him was evil, evil facilitated by his own society. Tack on "now don't forget not to hate ALL lighteyes, or you're just as bad!" to a guy who had to do something like bridge runs, and that encapsulates why I find the demand that Kaladin let go of all of his anger completely to be an unfair and indefensible position.
  6. His hatred is something he's working on to change; his anger is righteous and correct. EDIT: And to clarify, the three do not get the same reaction from the radon, except perhaps Shallan. There aren't threads and threads being made about the Kholins' classism, exclaiming how inappropriate they're being. The large portion of fan attention on this issue is focused on Kaladin.
  7. Nope, it doesn't. And as a personal request, let's not quote MLK so far from his cultural context; there are plenty of his quotes we can quote that are less nice and broad. I find it telling that the anger of the darkeyes gets more of a "this is wrong!" reaction than Dalinar and Adolin and Shallan's thoughts and actions, as people in these privileged positions who thoughtlessly are classist in the books. But they have the privilege of being calm and reasonable about this subject, whereas Kaladin's anger is seen as hysterical and unreasonable. I'll use an analogy to explain my reasoning. I and my boss are angry at each other. I tell him, "you're fired!" Nothing happens. He tells me, "you're fired!" and I am escorted from the building. Were our actions equal? Did we do each other the same harm? No. Absolutely not. I was not capable of firing my boss; the company would laugh if I'd tried. On the other hand, it was very easy for him to fire me. But our words were the same! We were both in the wrong! And yet, if someone tried to claim that what I did was as bad as what he did to me, even just bad at all, that claim would be pretty insulting. Calling what I did "firing him" doesn't align with the reality.
  8. By equating Kaladin's words to the harm he's been paid out, it diminishes the impact of what is so bad about racism. His suspicion is completely earned; based on what he'd been through, he was given multiple reasons to find lighteyes untrustworthy. The impact to the lighteyes Kaladin dislikes is negligible, it's essentially nothing. Hurt feelings is the extent of it, as I've said. I've called him prejudiced in this thread, which covers all the things you mentioned in your posts, but racism is reserved for institutional, systemic power.
  9. @Nellac A "what if it turns around" theoretical doesn't make the current situation any less what it is. It hasn't happened, and it's not on the table. If that were to happen and all institutional power flows away from the lighteyes and to the darkeyes, then the darkeyes would be enforcing the class system and I would be saying that lighteyes can't be racist against darkeyes. Hypotheticals don't change the logic. The experiences darkeyes have is not the same as lighteyes. Calling something racist is something many people find quite a serious accusation. By using the same word for Kaladin's anger and for the actions of people who did all of that to Kaladin, is calling Kaladin's anger immoral and illegitimate. Kaladin's anger is justified and righteous, even as he is letting go of his hatred. Calling him racist poisons the water; it implies by every definition brought up in this thread that Kaladin is wrong to be angry, because we all know being a racist is bad. He is not wrong to be angry and his suspicion and distrust of lighteyes is earned.
  10. @Toaster Retribution And I consider a definition outside of systemic racism too broad, insultingly so, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that. It puts the anger of the oppressed on the same level as the oppressors, treating both as equally bad, and that seems both incorrect and condescending in my view. Keeping it more in world of Roshar than real life, no one has been able to claim that Kaladin has anything more than a personal dislike. When he dislikes lighteyes and says something about it, people get mad and hurt, but the worst that happens to the lighteyes is they go, jeez, that darkeyes was such a jerk! And feel whatever hurt or angry feelings they want to feel. And that's the end of the impact. When a lighteyes dislikes Kaladin, the worst that could happen is... well, what actually happened to him. The Vorin church teaches the lighteyes are on top and they should be trusted; his society doesn't treat everyone equally, and many are treated worse, ie. the darkeyes. Kaladin's prejudice stems from repeated personal experience. It is impossible for Kaladin to be racist against lighteyes. What I find deeply interesting is how angry or condescending people get about Kaladin being this angry, as if anyone else wouldn't think what he thinks given his experiences. @Vissy I completely agree, especially about Shallan. Her thoughts and actions towards anyone of a lower rank than her are deeply classist/racist, and I find I do not enjoy reading her for this reason.
  11. Oh the contrary, Kaladin's opinion is similar to marginalized groups irl, and him being on the marginalized side of his society, Kaladin is not racist or classist. He has no structural power to enforce against the people higher than him. If a lighteyes doesn't like Kaladin, they can use the caste system against Kaladin to punish him, especially more than they would be able to against a fellow lighteyes. When Kaladin doesn't like a lighteyes, they punish him. He loses in both scenarios. Acting as though Kaladin hurting a lighteyed person's feelings is in any way equivalent to a lighteyes also hurting his feelings, disregarding his life, enslaving him, pressing a red hot brand to his face, being on the bridge crews... Kaladin wasn't born or raised with this opinion of lighteyes, either, it wasn't a product of society. Kaladin is prejudiced and getting over it, but it was multiple repeated circumstances of extending his trust and having it thrown in his face that got him there. It stems from actual mistreatment, that he had no recourse against, and mistreatment that was legal and considered the right of the lighteyes who did it. I consider systemic racism the most accurate definition, and some people say racism when they mean prejudice. The worst thing he can do, if following the rules of the caste system, is hurt someone's feelings, and he could be punished for even that much. Kaladin is not racist. He experiences resentment and anger at a group of people he's repeatedly had abuse and hurt him, personally, people he thought he could trust and believe in. His feelings are entirely legitimate and he's suspicious of the lighteyes he meets, but it hasn't stopped him from realizing that people like the Kholins are still worthwhile, and given his circumstances and life story, the fact that he takes a while to trust them is completely reasonable.
  12. horror

    I said on a Stormlight Shardcast way back when about how I think most people would think and act like Moash. I certainly found him relatable, in an uncomfortable way, that I found challenging. I have to deal with my anger about how Kaladin's arc is ending up with, if not forgiveness, then some kind of letting go, in a way that feels unfair. I frequently am annoyed whenever someone claims that Kaladin's anger and hatred is unreasonable - no, it isn't, it's perfectly reasonable. I want to hold onto it, even wallow in it. I get Moash's rage deeply, and that's why I despise it so much. It's the point where I have to grapple with Brandon's personal philosophy the most, the part where it seems clearest to me that this is a book written by someone whose philosophy doesn't 100% align with mine, and also the part where I do the most self-reflection to consider if I do agree with what Brandon is saying about hatred. I don't want to be like Moash, but if I hold onto my rage, is that a guarantee I'm going to end up doing something unforgivable, or must I let go of it to be the kind of person I admire more (ie. Kaladin)?
  13. Ha, it was me. I promise it is possible to edit in a quote - it's not super obvious, but the way I do it is to write what I want in the box at the bottom of the page, but instead of pressing send to create a new post, I copy it and paste it when editing the post I want to add it to. The formatting should stay. Interesting rec list! It does seem to be a big list of everything without much commentary on how that representation might appear, but i imagine that is the purpose. I might not go to game of thrones for rep, but there are some excellent things on there at first scan. Apparently there's a sff book coming out this year, Bonds of Brass, that I've been told is an excellent mlm story. I'm looking forward to it!