Greywatch

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Greywatch last won the day on February 24

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746 Elantrian

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About Greywatch

  • Birthday January 23

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    Female
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    The Great North
  • Interests
    Fandom, genre fiction in any medium, theology, the outdoors, long drives on the highway.

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  1. There is no need to be sarcastic, especially if it requires misinterpreting another member's point to make it sound sillier.
  2. I agree with there being no such thing as the Oppression Olympics. People can feel whatever they want about their circumstances; there's always someone who's been through worse. If that was the case, then nobody should ever have depression, and it should all be dumped on the one person we've all decided is the one who actually has it the worst of all humanity. It just doesn't work like that.
  3. This is not a convincing argument. (1) You've just said everyone with DID is unreliable, pretty much as straightforwardly as I've seen in the entire discussion. Having a dissociative disorder does not mean their wants and goals are irrelevant to the process of healing. If their ability and autonomy to initiate their own healing is taken away, it's not actually going to help them. (2) It requires me to believe everyone with DID is untrustworthy about what their treatment goals are. People should be trusted to communicate their own experience and their own desires. We don't get to tell people they're doing it wrong if they've achieved stability and happiness and want to continue as they are. (3) It requires me to dismiss what individuals might say their treatment goals are if they vary even slightly from the quoted text (which is not even the most recent literature on the subject). Sometimes people's goals are "I want to be functional" and that's a perfectly valid goal to work towards, even if they re-evaluate after some time. (4) It requires me to do this based on a comparison to a fictional character. Comparisons to a fictional character will never be a good example for this type of argument because Kaladin does not actually have real autonomy. (5) Further to all this, even if Kaladin was a real person, you can't use one person as an example of why ALL people in that category are also doing the same thing as him. And in a category as broad and varied as "people with mental health issues", it's even less valid - Kaladin's management plan would be completely different from Shallan's. "Just look at Kaladin" is an argument completely besides the point. (6) What you've written here puts every single choice or result that "falls short" of the conclusions you've pulled from your quoted text as being self-destructive. Just because someone's goals might be different from the treatment text does not mean they are being self-destructive. A person can set their goals with a therapist or psychiatrist, and if the mental health worker is good, they can suggest directions, but they will not force a person to walk in a direction that doesn't work for them. (7) This all entirely ignores the case of what happens when someone does go to therapy, does do it "correctly", and still doesn't re-integrate. This happens. This is not true. It would not be a failure of the story nor would she fail as a character. It would be something that you wouldn't like, but that's not objective reality. Many folks with DID might like it better and find it more realistic. Whereas if the story needs to resolve every mental health issue exactly according to the highest ideal outlined by the most current processes (which 2004 is not), I would say that would be forcing the story to serve the DSM.
  4. Re-integration doesn't seem to be the goal for everyone who has DID, despite what you've linked. Going to videos and sources made by people with the disorder was the most eye-opening experience of understanding what it is like. It seems it's very possible to go get proper therapy, deal with their issues, and still have their alters in the end. I find that more convincing, honestly.
  5. I would actually say she got better over the course of the year since OB, not that it happened in a few days at the end of OB and she's spent the last year refusing to keep going. Everything implies that it took time and work to get to where she was at the beginning of RoW. I do believe she's hit a slow point and now needs to get to the next level, but that doesn't mean that's a problem with where she is now. Healing doesn't need to be - and can't be - a straight upwards line, and the fact that she still has more to go doesn't mean she's doing it incorrectly at the moment.
  6. I would say that's more callous than anyone in the books, for sure. It's not a statement we've even seen in the books.
  7. At this point, a lot of virtual ink has been spilled on why it's not an issue that Kaladin didn't notice, understand, or care that Leshwi was in a malen body. Sexual dimorphism isn't as obvious with the singers as it is with humans, and when it comes to finding Fused, the colour pattern is the best option for identifying them anyway. Even after practice, in the middle of battle is not the ideal circumstances to be sitting and studying the new body of your enemy - they are flying through the air while attacking each other with deadly weapons. And to be honest, even if there's a possibility that Kaladin could tell, it's still a reasonable choice that it didn't matter enough to put it in his POV. If they've been fighting the Fused for a year, I wouldn't be surprised that the human side has acknowledged and dismissed it as Fused weirdness. Even though it's shiny and new for us readers, it would be very old news to the characters. This is just not a problem.
  8. In Way of Kings, the malen Parshendi having beards is one of the few (the only?) giveaway of gender dimorphism that leads Dalinar to wonder if some of the Parshendi were women. Without that hint, it was not obvious to the humans. Ascribing the lack of gender markers as Brandon making a "logical error" is a bit silly, and ignores the established facts of the singers' physiology that we've had on hand since literally the first book. Kaladin looking for colour patterns instead of a female-shaped body makes complete sense.
  9. In the future, you can edit your post to add on to what you had before.
  10. Ooh, I completely agree, especially with the sections I quoted. I think "pathological inability to see herself in a positive light" is right on the money - Shallan hates herself so much. In light of how she's thought about herself for the entire series, I don't think who we've been reading as Shallan for three books - starting on four - is a fake personality. That would feel pretty crummy and cheap. It seems clear to me that Shallan's self-hatred drenches every aspect of her POV, and Shallan thinking of herself as a bad person doesn't actually make her a bad person. So it goes: Shallan thinking she's fake doesn't make her fake.
  11. Hi, all, this is getting heated. Please remember we're here to have fun; and in that light, let's give each other the benefit of the doubt when we seem to disagree. This is a great resource one of our admins created, and I highly recommend taking a look through it. If you think someone has crossed a line, please report the post instead of engaging further.
  12. @Master Silver A lot of the people here aren't Christian and wouldn't find that conversation appealing or convincing, so despite my own urge to go off on that tangent as well, it's probably for the best. However, in a topic about mental health where traumatized and mentally ill people are the focus of what everyone is talking about, the implication did very strongly come off in your post that neurodivergent people needed to be recognized as "broken" carries the implication of "as opposed to neurotypical people", and I stand by that as an understanding of your post sans explanation. (Your post also did come at the tail end of a conversation in the thread about the definitions of normal vs abnormal, healthy vs unhealthy, and what it means for neurodivergent people to always have the label of "unhealthy" on them and be denied the "good" labels, so I do believe folks reading through the thread as a whole might also take it in the same way I did. Context is king, and I believe the root of the misunderstanding here.)
  13. Speaking from the Christian tradition myself, having done my own share of study, mainstream theological thought does not allow for the differentiation of mental illness making people more broken than other people. Everyone is broken. I've seen it described as some people may have more burdens to carry in their life, but describing someone as broken for having a mental illness... I would fight that label. I don't think that's a legitimate thing to call someone for having a mental issue, except perhaps for discussions on Brandon's magic system affecting cracked spirit-webs. People can describe themselves as "broken" for any reason, but to say that we need to recognize others as "broken" feels really... bad, and I would disagree, even from a Christian perspective. I'm happy with the language Calderis already used. These "burdens" have names, and he's already been very clear that supporting people with mental issues already looks like what you describe with the SA characters supporting each other. A change of language is not necessary.
  14. I was persuaded by conversations with/watching videos with people who have DID, and I was surprised at how re-integration didn't seem to be a goal at all. My view of re-integration before and after looking up real lived experience are very different. Before, I assumed re-integration was the goal for everyone with the disorder. Now, I get the impression it's something that most people live with and treat as part of their normal existence. (There was a youtube video Karger linked earlier in the thread, which I thought was really interesting and eye-opening.) I suspect that part of the difference here is that most people with DID whose personal stories I have learned about have had alters since childhood, whereas we only see it in Shallan as an adult - and Veil and Radiant developed very quickly. This is why I personally think of what Shallan has as being DID-adjacent rather than DID itself - as I've learned recently, DID is not the only disorder where a person can develop a plurality. This is something I was persuaded on when I looked away from the DSM and treatment manuals to trying to find real-life folks who have DID and how they talk about it. I ended up re-evaluating (1) how often it even happens that irl people with DID can achieve re-integration, (2) whether it's even a plausible reality for them to achieve and (3) whether it was even a good goal for everybody who has DID. "Remaining ill", I think, is a very specific and negative way of framing Shallan's alters that I can't agree with. Shallan's illness stems from trauma. Whether she could be diagnosed as having PTSD as related to her dissociative disorder(s), the trauma of her childhood is what is at the root of all of this. The alters' existence is not the source of the problem in and of themselves. Treating the trauma might not result in re-integration. Even if re-integration happens, it won't ensure that Shallan will never dissociate again. Re-integration wouldn't mean that Shallan is 100% okay and "normal" again. (I don't really want to get dragged down in definitions of "normal", so I'm just sticking the word in quotes and hope you understand my meaning.) On a slight tangent here, even if Shallan never dissociated ever, she would still not be 100% okay in the way some might think of it. Childhood trauma is something that people have to deal with for the rest of their lives; healing is a spiral, not a straightforward upwards trajectory. Part of the healing process for trauma is accepting that one will never be the same person again. Shallan will never again be the same person she was before the Bad Thing happened. People with trauma and/or mental disorders don't have them go away. These things are for life. Trauma and mental disorders can be managed, and coping strategies can be learned and improved on, and medication can assist quality of life, and therapy can help people process - but they will never 100% disappear. It feels unfair for the people living with these to have the definition of "healthy" or "normal" be reserved for being issue-free. I believe that is the reason for pushback to the idea that Shallan needs to re-integrate in order to be healthy, as if she would be "healthy" without the alters - it feels incredibly bitter on the other side for folks who don't get to claim the "I'm healthy and have no mental issues" label. It's not a binary of healthy vs. unhealthy. Functional is something to strive for. Working towards a better quality of life is something to strive for. Facing trauma and healing from it is something to strive for. Healthy is relative. Is there any reason, any actual reason, to get rid of the alters? What are they doing that is making Shallan's life worse? What are they doing that make it difficult for her to get through a day? When I challenged myself with this, I couldn't come up with anything other than that the idea of it scared me, and if she could just heal from her trauma and stop depending on them, she'd be fine again. But that's just not how it works.
  15. Yes, absolutely. She has always had a dissociative disorder, even before the alters "arrived." Her dissociation existed since childhood, and the alters' existence are just another type of dissociation when forced to remember something she wasn't ready for (her end of WoR moment).