ROSHtaFARian2.0

I've long speculated there'd be a Shard named something like Invention, and since one definition of ingenuity is 'the quality of being cleverly inventive or resourceful; inventiveness', I definitely wouldn't hate it this ended up being canon.

I think a factor that might help contextualize why someone with the Intent of Autonomy would be attacking another world at all....is the matter of scale. Specifically the scale in which the Shards operate, view the cosmere and plot their actions accordingly. Thing is, it simply does not work to try and speak in terms of absolute definitions when discussing the sentient embodiment of abstract, subjective concepts. There are dictionary definitions for Honor, Autonomy, Preservation, etc, yes. And some definitions are more agreed upon or used more colloquially than others, yes. But there will always be room for 'hypocrisy' in the actions of Shards because every Intent we know of correlates to a concept that is inherently meaningless outside of specific contexts. Honor exists as a concept outside of specific, individual scenarios, true. But it doesn't really MEAN anything UNTIL it's applied to specific situations. For instance, going off the definition, one could easily say 'It is honorable to obey the laws of society.' And that is absolutely, one hundred percent true according to the definition of Honor, given the information contained in that sentence. But now give that sentence an actual context. Make it a specific situation. Say you're talking about a fictional cosmere society where an autocrat along the lines of the Lord Ruler has created a society where the law mandates that anyone who speaks ill of him is to be reported, arrested and put to death, purely because of this autocrat's ego. Would it still be Honorable to obey that law? Would following it be in accordance with Honor's Intent? On Scadrial, Preservation's Investiture is accessed by snapping, a person with the right genetics becoming an allomancer in a time of physical need, in preservation of their own life. However, the powers granted by Preservation's Investiture are not purely defensive. They can be (and have been) used to kill other human beings. Is this hypocritical in regards to Preservation's Intent? No, because none of these Intents exist in a vacuum. They all must coexist in a universe populated by sentient beings with their own interpretations of these universal concepts, and more importantly...their own free will. Which is why I spoke of scale. Because sometimes, it comes down to prioritization. Preservation's Intent, absent of context would mandate that both an allomancer and a person committed to killing them should be preserved. But the problem is, Preservation does not have the power to make that happen. Because the Shards are not gods. They are god-like figures of enormous power, to such a degree that a distinction seems almost unnecessary, but it is necessary to make the distinction that for all their ability to influence cosmere events and figures through their power, knowledge and longevity....they can not control what sentient beings will actually DO, outside of specific contexts such as Ruin's ability to manipulate those who are spiked hemalurgically. Back to the example of the allomancer and the person committed to killing them for whatever reason, at all costs...ideally, Preservation would probably want both lives preserved. But if that can't happen in the long run because the one person is absolutely obsessed of their own free will with killing the allomancer for some personal reason, no matter how many times the allomancer is preserved or finds a means to survive their opponent's attempts on their life, ultimately that conflict will only ever end when one of the two is dead. So if Preservation can't preserve both lives, not because of his Intent but because his Intent simply can not supersede the free will of this person and make them choose not to want to kill the allomancer because that's not what he is and that's not how free will works....if only one life can be preserved and a choice has to be made....would it make Preservation a hypocrite if he aided or enabled the allomancer in killing their pursuer, preserving their life at the cost of another? Or could it be argued, that in the context of scale and the extremely long view the Shards take of things due to their own expanded awareness and longevity....that in Preservation's eyes, this isn't remotely a conflict of Interest, because his concern is the long view, the MOST life being preserved in the long run, given that total preservation of all life everywhere is impossible. After all, if two people are locked in a life and death struggle from which only one can survive...who is less likely to contribute to the overall preservation of life after that struggle is won...the allomancer who only killed in self-defense, or the person who initiated that struggle by trying to kill the allomancer? And this of course is essentially exactly what did happen on Scadrial. The events Preservation himself deliberately set in motion to ultimately defeat Ruin and preserve as much life on Scadrial as he could in the long run, these events were extremely far-reaching in their ripple effects. People absolutely died over the course of Scadrial's history as a result of situations Preservation manipulated to enact his longterm plan to stop Ruin...he may not have killed them himself, but he set things in motion, his hand created situations that led to deaths that would almost certainly not have happened if his hand hadn't been present. And Preservation could do all that, despite his Intent, despite the fact that he shouldn't be able to act in a way that gets people killed given that this is the exact opposite of his Intent....because his Intent doesn't exist in any meaningful way without context. And with context, a life can be ended in order to preserve someone else's. Many lives can be lost in the preservation of many more. The Shards are not gods, no, but they are god-like enough that they view things on a macro scale that means individual lives in the here and now must always be weighed against the bigger picture, which for some Shards like Preservation, include a knowledge of the future. Which brings me back to Autonomy. Does it make sense according to the dictionary definition of the word that a Shard with the Intent of Autonomy would attack innocent humans on another planet who have done nothing to her or her people directly? No, not really. But in the context of a nearly immortal Shard with an awareness of an entire galaxy and countless millennia of history, a Shard which has an Intent that shapes her actions but also has the ability to prioritize how and where she applies that Intent and whose Autonomy is most critical in her opinion, just as Preservation was able to prioritize what lives he focused on preserving most in the long run.... Then there's endless possibilities for why Autonomy might be attacking Scadrial. Maybe she has future sight and is staving off a future threat to her people. Maybe she considers Taldain so much 'hers' that she views the Shardworlds of all other Shards as similarly entwined and thus doesn't distinguish between Harmony and 'his' people, so if she views Harmony as a threat, by extension his people are a threat as well. Maybe she considers her actions in the present a necessary evil to 'free' Scadrial of Harmony's influence in the long run. Maybe she's the least influenced of all the Shards by her Intent because she interprets it as everyone being able to do as they wish of their own agency, and thus she sees no reason she can't act however she pleases because she knows like all the other Shards, no matter how much influence she wields she isn't actually impinging on anyone's Autonomy to make their own choices based on whatever information or resources they have. There's no way to know yet, but there's no way that simply having the Intent Autonomy could make it impossible for Trell to be one of her Avatars. Because we can't make the case that Bavadin should be incapable of impinging on someone else's Autonomy without acknowledging that human beings impinge on each other's Autonomy all the time....and if it's simply a fundamentally applied absolute that Autonomy can't act to restrict someone else's Autonomy without being a hypocrite, then how could she ever act at all?

Eh, it's entirely possible, but I'm more inclined to say coincidence. All of those similarities are pretty boiled down in order to show the commonality between them, and when you boil anything down far enough you're going to reduce it to fairly generic elements that could be compared to plenty of other things. It's basically only the similarity in names that makes those elements call Mistborn to mind, IMO, and while I haven't read AEitA yet, I believe the fantasy world in it is based on the Roman Empire, right? And Veturius is a Latin word that means a veteran or expert, someone with lots of experience. If that's in any way applicable to that character's family lineage, I would be very surprised if the author was so desiring to make an homage that she went looking for a Latin word that had significance to her character while still sounding like Venture, you know? *Shrugs* Not that I'm really invested one way or another, but I do think there's a tendency given our natures as pattern seekers to read into one author's works based on the work or influence of another author, but often times those patterns are just as likely a result of both authors being inspired by similar sources rather than one of those authors being inspired by the other.

Yeah, my interpretation of those two Brandon quotes isn't that Rayse wasn't supposed to at the Shattering, but rather that Brandon felt that Rayse being invited by Hoid is a humorous RAFO from his perspective, given we know how much Hoid hates Rayse now and thus it's ironic that they were apparently once friends, and Hoid is responsible for Rayse being there to take up a Shard in the first place.

Well Brandon has said that his version of dragons are shapeshifters, so while we don't know much about the third sentient race from Yolen at this point, Cultivation could be a dragon and still romantically involved with Tanavast.

It's possible that it just hasn't come up as relevant from Brandon's perspective when writing The Stormlight Archive so far. It's significant to us because we're invested in the greater cosmere story, in learning everything we can about it and the Shattering and the Shards, wherever we can. But from Brandon's perspective, he includes stuff about the greater cosmere tapestry when its relevant to the story he's writing. The flipside of that is that his NOT including a piece of the greater cosmere backstory isn't necessarily an indication there's any significance to that other than it just wasn't something he saw a need to include at the moment. Perhaps its as simple as there hasn't been a scene thus far where Brandon felt it demanded he use the name of Cultivation's Vessel, and so he hasn't. Like with Endowment. Edgli is mentioned in the text of Warbreaker in the form of the Tears of Edgli....but there was no indication in the text that this was a reference to the Shard Endowment herself, because there didn't need to be. And when Brandon confirmed that was Endowment's name years later at a signing when he was asked it directly, he did so IMO because it wasn't a big secret or anything - knowing that Edgli is the name of Endowment's Vessel doesn't really change anything about the story of Warbreaker itself, IMO, just like NOT knowing Edgli was her name didn't really add to the story or take away from it. There was just no real in-story reason why we had to know Edgli's name before Brandon confirmed it at a signing, just like there was no real reason for Brandon not to confirm it when asked. So its possible we've seen Cultivation's name in text already and just aren't aware of its significance, but Brandon hasn't confirmed this because nobody's picked out the right name and asked him it directly yet. Or its just as possible it hasn't come up in text yet because there hasn't been reason for him to include it yet, and its just not Brandon's style to volunteer 'this Shard's name is (x) which there's no way you could possibly know since you've never heard that name before' when it will inevitably make its way into the text at some point, just like all the Shards and their Vessels will.

*Shrugs* All Intents are open to interpretation to varying degrees, and I'm less concerned with the actual name of this Intent and more the general direction of its Intent. But Serenity isn't synonymous with apathy, which is more in line with what you're describing. People who seek a state of serenity or inner peace for themselves tend to do so because they want to be happier, more peaceful or more content in life, not because they don't actually care if they live or die. And again, like I said earlier, no Shards are mindless Intents with no personal ambitions or goals of their own, even ones as extreme as Ati, who was completely twisted by Ruin in the end. All his plans were focused on ruin and entropy, but they were still his plans....an actual mind was needed in the driver's seat. So there's no reason a Shard like Serenity's Vessel wanting to hide and survive would be in contradiction with its Intent, or inevitably result in its Intent altering it to the point where the Vessel no longer wants to survive. Now whether or not such an Intent would overlap with Harmony is a different matter, but I think they're still fairly distinct. Harmony is a positive, affirming word and is frequently used to describe things like 'being in harmony with the universe'. And yes, that could be described as the same sense of serenity, inner peace or tranquility I'm describing for the Hiding Shard. But in practice, what we've seen of Harmony suggests that his Intent leans more towards the definitions of the word that aren't about a state of peacefulness or utopia, but about balance. Harmony is the balance between Ruin and Preservation, and he and Brandon have both frequently talked about how much of his inaction isn't because he doesn't WANT to act, or is content not to act, but because he can't, his Intent has him too bound to trying to maintain a balance between the Ruin and Preservation that combined to form his new Shard. The real reason I don't see Harmony and my take on this Shard as Serenity being too similar is because I only call the latter Serenity because that's an Intent that wouldn't feel any push that would keep it from just wanting to hide and survive. Whereas Harmony from everything we've seen would never be content or capable of just going off into space and hiding and surviving, he and his Intent are both focused on wanting OTHER things to be in Harmony, to spread and perpetuate a sense of balance through his sphere of influence.....its just his Intent limits him in how much he's able to directly influence to make this happen, even as it influences him to want this. Because too much direct influence would upset the very balance he's trying to create....creating Harmony between opposing things requires they find a balance between themselves....if he pushes or pulls too much on one side or another, it would never create true balance between opposites because it would require his presence/influence. All of which IMO is very different from a Shard who is content to enjoy the universe as it exists, flaws and all, which would be Serenity, but not actually apathy or indifference to whether it survives to continue enjoying the universe or dying. Also, unlike Harmony who is still focused on the external and wanting the universe around him to be in balance, I don't believe a Shard with the Intent of Serenity would feel compelled to 'spread' serenity or make others experience it for themselves....because that's actually antithetical to serenity. A Shard like Serenity might certainly encourage people who came across it in space or came seeking it to embrace its Intent because of the peace it could bring them.....but IMO that Shard wouldn't feel a need to go bringing its message/Intent of Serenity throughout the cosmere, because that would imply that they were dissatisfied with the un-serene state of the rest of the cosmere and thus not actually fully Serene with the world around them as is. Basically, I'm saying the difference is Harmony accepts that the world around him is NOT fully in balance while still wanting the world around him to BECOME in balance, like him and his Intent, as ideal. Whereas Serenity would accept that the world around it is NOT serene while not necessarily feeling that needs to change, because is usually a result of managing one's own perspective/expectations in order to be more at peace with life and the world as is, rather than expecting either to change in order to be content with them.

My best guess for this Shard is something like Serenity, or possibly Tranquility. Note this is NOT the same thing as Peace as an Intent, because I think a Shard with that Intent would not be as likely to just want personal peace for itself, but would be influenced by that Intent to meddle in mortal affairs and spread or perpetuate peace throughout the cosmere. But Serenity is a different matter, and a more introspective Intent. Like, I'm picturing the aspect of Creation that's simply content with creation, with what exists, with what you've made. The part that decides you're happy enough with things as they are that you can move on to doing or focusing on something else, creating something new, instead of tweaking what's already there or that you just made....but this aspect of Adonalsium, divorced from the rest of the creative urge/process, would be content 'to just hide and survive' because Serenity absent any other creative motivations/compulsions would feel no need or push to do the moving on part, and instead would just find contentment with what already is. I can't think of a more fitting way of describing an aspect of creation that wants nothing other than to exist, which is what I feel is really described by 'just wants to hide and survive'....because if survival is only tangential to its Intent, and its that in combination with just hiding that really describes what that Shard is doing.....we're still talking about a Shard whose Intent, unlike all others we've seen, doesn't seem to drive them to do anything, to have any overall ambition or something they want to accomplish or affect. Brandon said its smart enough to know what's going on elsewhere in the cosmere and want to stay out of it, but the smart enough part could be a reference to the Vessel and their personal motivations/view of things, rather than a layer of their Intent itself...Serenity doesn't innately have to do with being smart enough to abstain from conflict, just a willingness to, so that WoB could simply mean the holder of Serenity wants to avoid getting caught up in the greater cosmere conflicts and knows that just hiding somewhere else is the best way to do that and survive.....and their Intent allows them to do that, because it doesn't influence the Vessel to explicitly want anything more than that, if its content with that as the status quo for personal reasons.

I know I said I was done, but I have to respond...yes, I am getting passionate. Yes, I do feel personally about stuff like oppression. But the fact that you feel personally attacked, Llarimar, is not on me. It is a reflection of your continued stance that you are only comfortable even just having discussions about oppression, let alone acting around it, so long as you feel comfortable and affirmed. At no point in any of this have I made any kind of attack on your PERSON. I have heatedly condemned the positions you've put forth here, but that is about words, ideas, not about you PERSONALLY. As you said, I don't know you. I don't know what groups you are or aren't a part of, just like you don't know the same about me. But neither have I actually inferred anything about you beyond what your own words have said about your position on this. Like, how could I be making assumptions about what groups you're part of when we're not even talking about specific groups? Everything I've said is based on YOUR words, and that I think your stance continues to benefit the oppressors more than anyone else and thus seems to speak to the fact that either consciously or unconsciously, they're the real focus of your concern - and since so much of your argument is about how people naturally prioritize themselves and their own feelings before deciding how and in what ways to take action, THAT is what makes me feel that YOU are reacting from a place of defensiveness, and thus lumping yourself in with at least some group of oppressors and identifying more with them than a group that is oppressed. But like....we've been talking about dynamics, not specific groups. I take responsibility for my words and the things I read into what you say, but you have to take responsibility for whatever YOU read into a conversation too. If you've decided this conversation is specifically about white people and people of color, and you're a white person and reacting defensively because of that - that's on you, because you don't know that I'm not white. And because this conversation could equally be about the oppressive dynamics between straight people and gay people, cisgender and transgender, etc. But literally nothing I've said has been personal beyond the fact that I am responding aggressively, yes, but aggressively to words and ideas that you have put forth. I condemn them, yes, but I have not done so by means of any slurs, insults, insinuations about anything you do or don't do outside of this conversation. If you feel personally attacked by that, that's something you need to reflect on. Because opposition to an idea, even passionate opposition, is not an ATTACK. The fact that you equate anything YOU deem to be too forceful a pushback to an idea you put forth says a lot more than any ID badge about what you do or don't believe constitutes oppression. I freely admit that I do have my doubts that you are in any way qualified based on your own personal experiences (WHATEVER they may be) to determine what's 'serious' enough to merit an analogy as extreme as my person on fire metaphor. Yes, it is an extreme metaphor. But it is also not as ridiculous as you seemed to think it is, because many forms of oppression even in first world countries ARE extremely dire, urgent and life-threatening, and the fact that you have the personal distance from such a notion so as to be able to think it in the first place - that is what says to me that whatever groups you are part of, your personal experiences with being oppressed are not as much as certain others in society. You seem bemused by the fact that I'm not treating this discussion as academically and abstractly as you are able to.....and that is because it is neither academic nor abstract to me, and while it may not be for you either, you are the one who has chosen to present yourself and your positions in such a way. And yes, Calderis, there is a difference between ignorance and willful ignorance, and I maintain we see it illustrated in this thread. Because maintaining that an analogy that presents an instance where someone is in extreme pain and suffering as being too ridiculous or extreme for the discussion we're having because most racism/oppression/etc isn't that dire, is WILLFUL ignorance to the realities of what life is like for some members of oppressed groups BECAUSE of their oppression. If you're able to utilize the internet as adeptly and thoroughly to make your way to this forum, you can only be ignorant of the reality that even in America, in 2018, members of oppressed groups are murdered, beaten, in a myriad of ways violently harmed and oppressed by members of oppressing groups, even while in some cases, people merely stand by and watch (and film it).....if you're WILLFULLY choosing not to see these things because they don't support your unsubstantiated theory that 'racism/oppression is bad yes, but not THAT bad, its not like people DIE because of it, guys.' I'm paraphrasing here, but this is the attitude I feel is conveyed by certain posts here, and a large part of my forceful response. Please learn to recognize the difference between passion and aggression and actual threat and harm. I am very passionate at this moment, and yes, that manifests in the form of language that is phrased more aggressively towards people in this thread and their ideas than it strictly needs to be, but there is no way, shape or form that in doing so I present a threat to anyone here, and that they are in any way being attacked personally.

Yeah, I'm going to bow out of this conversation, because when you respond to the example 'how would you feel if you were on fire, in pain and suffering and dying and a person near you was watching, doing nothing' with "you could feel ANNOYED or FRUSTRATED" but hatred, no, that's too far, that's not justified.....like, we are never going to reach an agreement because I do not think it is my ideals that are the problem. Sorry, I just think that the viewpoint that most people are inherently selfish is a convenient self-justification people make to never actually act towards change. They don't have to as long as they feel everyone else is just as self-motivated as themselves. I think there actually are quite a lot of people in the world whose first response to seeing a person on fire would be to do what they can to put it out regardless of what the person is yelling at them. That a person on fire making them FEEL bad isn't going to make them go, 'you know what? you don't deserve my help' and walk away, not caring that they can still hear them suffering behind them. Literally everything you're saying keeps coming back with ways to treat victims as being as crucial to resolving the hardships their victimizers inflicted on them, and you keep quoting me while conveniently sidestepping how I've pointed out that when oppressors point to their oppressed victims' reactions to justify their continued oppression, that is a convenience, not a necessity, because they didn't need that reaction to make their first action. You seem to want so badly to hold the oppressed to a higher standard of behavior than the oppressors, because over and over you keep focusing on what the oppressed SHOULD do and the importance of THEIR actions, while treating 'of course the oppressive group should stop hating and oppressing people' like an offhanded footnote of little consequence rather than the CAUSE AND DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of an oppressor/oppressed dynamic. I maintain if we all spent more time holding the group that's actually responsible for a dynamic accountable for perpetuating that dynamic, we'd get a lot further in ending these dynamics. When you prioritize focusing more on how the oppressed should not respond with hate WHILE continuing to be oppressed than you do on getting the oppressors to stop doing what they're doing REGARDLESS of whether it benefits them, all you do is expect more from the victims while expecting nothing from the victimizers, because based on your own theory of most people not being able to do something unless its comfortable or convenient for them, why on EARTH would oppressors ever STOP oppressing people and benefiting from having more power than them so long as they continue to feel comfortable about doing so? Like, you're hypothetically worrying more about what will happen with the oppressed group's hatred of their oppressors ONCE the system of oppression is dismantled, and using that to argue more about what THEY should do than worrying about what their oppressors are doing. But the thing is.....you're literally looking to a future time/event that hasn't happened yet and using what MIGHT happen wrong after that point to justify not doing anything to fix what's wrong in the current day, because you do know, whether you admit it or not, that regardless of whatever the oppressed do, the situation will not change unless and until the oppressing group (the group with the POWER) is forced or feels shamed or pressured into changing things. And you're content to let the status quo exist because you're more worried about what MIGHT happen when the oppressed group is no longer oppressed than you are about the fact that the current oppressive dynamic exists. So.....yeah. This is all very intellectually and morally dishonest, and I have no interest in catering further to it. You expect more from the oppressed group than the oppressors because you're worried if they don't manage to be the bigger people, the oppressors might someday end up oppressed and that scares you, because you think about how bad that would be....FOR THE OPPRESSORS. And that hypothetical future is a bigger priority to you than the reality of the present where things are that bad for the oppressed.....and yet you've managed to convince yourself that you're not part of the problem and not like other members of an oppressive group who ACTUALLY make things bad for the oppressed. Let's call a spade a spade: You're literally arguing that its okay for people to stand around watching a person on fire burn, because they don't want to do anything to put out the flames unless they're sure the person on fire isn't going to hate them for anything once they're safe and not on fire anymore. BUT at the exact same time, in the exact same post, you are also arguing that its not justified for the person on fire to HATE those who are willing to stand by and watch them suffer, because of 'basic decency and humanitarian kindness'.....that you don't actually seem to believe exists, given your stance that most people would not help a person on fire just for the sake of helping end their suffering, if that person were yelling at them and making them feel bad at the same time. It's hypocritical reasoning that only exists because you're interested in advancing an argument that benefits and validates a stance you already feel justified in taking....rather than because you're interested in your stance being formed by an argument that looks at the entire situation rather than just the facet that centers on your stake in that argument.

The thing is, there's no such thing as a member of a group of oppressors that 'has done nothing' to a group being oppressed, because we're talking about society wide systems here. Many members of groups of oppressors would say they've done nothing TO the group their own actively oppresses, but inaction is an action in and of itself. If they're not doing anything to actively combat and dismantle the systems of power their group uses to keep that other group oppressed, they ARE in fact doing something to that oppressed group themselves. They are saying implicitly and through their own inaction against the status quo, that they are alright with the status quo (which does, it can't be forgotten, benefit them in a variety of ways). They are saying 'the fact that you are undeservedly oppressed by members of a group that have more power than you and that I have equal power to, does not affect me personally enough or move me enough that I feel a need to use my power to help change that because it is right and good and moral, this is your problem, not mine.' Enabling oppression - even in the form of passive condonement - IS supporting oppression, and yes, that absolutely is something members of an oppressed group can hate them for. If you are on fire, and there is a person standing nearby watching you burn and doing nothing to help you, nothing to put the fire out, get you a blanket, grab some water, call for help - are you going to hate that person, even if they didn't set you on fire themselves? The fact that they see you suffering, see you dying, but it doesn't affect them personally enough that they care....that's not cause for hatred? And then when you start yelling at that person "I'm on fire, I'm suffering, I'm dying here, I need help, get me some water, what's wrong with you?" and that person starts yelling back about not making them feel guilty, this isn't their fault, they didn't do anything to you personally so why are you acting like they're the enemy, and suddenly they're having an argument with you, a person ON FIRE AND IN ACTIVE PAIN AND SUFFERING about how their guilt and feelings and emotional conflict because of what you yelled at them is just as big a problem and more of a priority for them then the fact that you're on fire and they could do something to help you but they're too busy being worried about how you've made them feel and justifying that's a bigger issue than your immediate pain and suffering? You're not gonna hate that person who won't just shut up and help you because they've somehow taken your pain and suffering and made it about them and how it affects them personally? Because you know what? There may be people standing around who DO try and help and put out that fire, and like....they may get caught in the crossfire of the person on fire yelling at all the people standing around doing nothing. But a person taking action to put out the fire because they see you suffering and want to help is NOT going to care that they get yelled at even while trying to help because the person is ON FIRE AND IN PAIN and lashing out due to suffering and there are a LOT of people standing around not caring and doing nothing about it, and someone who actually cares about your suffering is not going to begrudge the fact that in your active state of pain and suffering, your aim is a little off and they got hit with some vitriol they know they didn't deserve. Because THAT person understands it is not about THEM, that if they only help you when its convenient for them or you make them feel good about themselves for helping, they'd still be making it about them when it should be purely about "regardless of all other facts, this person is suffering and I want to help them."

I realize (unfortunately) that this is considered controversial, but no. Hate is not hate is hate is hate. Reactionary hate against someone who has unjustifiably singled out you or your group to systematically and routinely oppress is fundamentally not the same as the hatred your oppressors feel for you, because THEIRS is baseless. Yours is rooted in their mistreatment of you, their devaluing of your worth as a person. It is an inherent fallacy that these two things are equal or interchangeable, because the oppressors' hatred needed no actual justification to exist....which means, there is LITERALLY nothing the oppressed can do to change that dynamic, because they did nothing to merit it in the first place. Only the oppressors can decide to stop hating those they oppress, because they essentially decided to hate them in the first place, in order to support whatever agenda they had that required dehumanizing or devaluing an entire group of people. So when you understand that when the oppressors' hatred exists without reason and is sustained only through justifications they invent to support their hatred, and thus only they can decide NOT to any longer buy into the fiction of their own baseless justifications, then the reactionary hatred of the oppressed for those who actively harm them as a way of life is NOT equivalent. On a basic, fundamental level. Cause and effect. When reactionary anger is born only of effect, it does not exist without a cause, unlike the unjustified racism which needed nothing other than a desire to oppress in order to exist. Remove the cause of the reactionary anger, aka remove the oppression, the reactionary anger has no reason to exist. Saying that the reactionary anger of the oppressed only perpetuates the cycle of hatred implies that the oppressed have the power to stop their oppressors' hatred of them, if they'd simply not react w/hatred. This simply, historically, is not true. And you'll notice, it ONLY benefits the oppressors. Because if the oppressed react with hatred to their oppression, then they are supposedly responsible for fueling their own continued oppression....even though their oppression existed prior to their reactionary anger, and thus can not be blamed on it as a catalyst. Either way, the oppressors use it as a justification for their continued hatred of those they wield power over, as though they are 'victim' to their actual victims having the gall to react badly towards their unwarranted oppression of them. However, if the oppressed group chooses NOT to react with hatred towards their oppressors, it does not do anything to break the cycle, because there is no cycle, merely an action and a reaction. Their oppressors don't actually NEED their victims' reactionary anger to fuel their continued oppression, just as they didn't need it as a justification to oppress them initially. That they use it as a justification is a matter of convenience for the oppressors, not a necessity. Without it, the oppression continues same as it always did...only without actual opposition. Again, just as when the oppressed do react with reactionary hatred, when they don't react in that way it still only benefits their oppressors, through the lack of direct pushback against their oppression. Only one side ever benefits, no matter what the oppressed do....the ones with the power to enact a system of oppression over another group, who in fact are also the only ones with the power to unilaterally dismantle that same system WITHOUT conflict. Because the conflict only exists because they decided it should. And their victims are under no obligation to put up with it, simply because their oppressors decided they should. Saying otherwise only falsely apportions responsibility on the oppressed group for their own oppression, which they in no way asked for or deserved, while implying they have the power to end their oppression by not reacting with hatred....which in turn falsely apportions responsibility on the oppressed group for their own continued oppression. It's a win/win for the oppressors either way, and a lose/lose for the oppressed. You can not hold two groups to the same standards of behavior when one group has deliberately set themselves up above the other and acts upon that artificial power imbalance in a myriad of ways. If the two groups held equal power, you would be describing a conflict of equals rather than oppression. If the two groups are acknowledged not to hold equal power over the other, it is fundamentally nonsensical to artificially inflate the less powerful group with power it doesn't have in the name of creating an illusion of equal power/responsibility that does not actually exist.

Honestly, the thing that's always bemused me about the so-called Survival shard is that when the original quote was one Shard "just wants to hide and survive", almost universally the aspect of that quote people ran with was survive. That's only half that quote, and since Brandon later clarified the survive part was tangential to its Intent, rather than the focus, its always seemed to me its better referred to as the Hiding Shard. All the Shards we know of are fairly distinct with elements of overlap in some of their Intents, but only tangentially and to small degrees. Whereas survival is practically synonymous with preservation, so it was always hard for me to picture how another Shard could have Survival as its primary Intent and not have a ton of crossover with Preservation's Intent. Whereas a Shard that just wants to hide, or even a Shard that's WILLING to hide at all, says a lot to describe an Intent that's unlike any of the other Shards we know of. What's so different about it? The fact that all the other Shards we know of are practically UNABLE to keep from meddling in mortal affairs to some degree. Even Autonomy, whose Intent (of the ones we know) would come closest to avoiding people or meddling with them entirely. Add to that, all Vessels are ultimately influenced by their Intent...it doesn't dictate all their actions, but it dictates their agenda, which in turn determines their actions. As an example, we know Endowment prefers to keep out of cosmere wide events and keep to her planet, but I genuinely don't think she'd be capable of simply 'hiding and surviving', no matter how much she wanted to avoid Rayse and his agenda towards other Shards. Her Intent is Endowment, its literally gifting things to others. She can't NOT Endow things to others, which means she can't simply cut herself from any and all others she might potentially Endow things to, no matter her own self-preservation instincts and how much she might want to survive the conflicts the others engage in. All the Shards still have personalities, they're not mindless forces compelled to further their Intent with no regard for their own sense of self and petty wants and desires, so Endowment can still WANT to survive and act towards that, for instance. But due to the influence of her Intent, any steps she might take towards self-preservation would have to take into account how her Intent has influenced her personality to prioritize Endowment as something that's fundamental to her nature. She can 'hide' on Nalthis and try and keep the cosmere-wide conflicts from spilling over to her planet and affecting her in turn, but she can't simply run away to a barren asteroid somewhere and hide and survive, prioritizing her own self-preservation OVER her Intent of Endowment. Which brings us to a Shard that's even able to "JUST hide and and survive." If survive is tangential to this Shard's Intent, of more focus is the fact that its Intent allows it to want something that's entirely self-sufficient and inward-focused, rather than looking outward to the rest of creation, the way all other Shards we know of seem geared towards, or act along those lines. Brandon's cautioned before not to read too much into his own personal religious beliefs or assume Adonalsium is a direct analog to our ideas of a Christian god. All we know for sure is that its the cosmere's version of the demiurge, the driving force of creation. All sixteen Shards are aspects of that driving force of creation, which explains why all the Shards we know of are so focused on the creation around them and interacting with it in various ways. So the better question we should be asking about this Shard IMO, is what kind of Intent can be born OF creation, while not wanting or at least not needing much else to do with creation outside of itself?

Well here's where I've always been very interested in seeing Nalthis post-scientific advancement, because Identity is such a nuanced thing in the cosmere. Also, things aren't totally cut and dried with the rules we have for Awakening thus far. So I do think there are ways that Awakening could be used to heal wounds at some point. For instance, you can't Awaken people, true but most Awakening does require the material be organic, with inorganic Awakening only possible at the higher Heightenings. The presence of a living soul is what interferes with the process of Awakening, hence why Awakening corpses as Lifeless isn't inherently any different from Awakening a bundle of straw, just requiring more complex Commands due to the intricacy of getting a vessel as initially complicated as a human corpse to operate in fulfillment of the intentions of the Awakener's mental and spoken Commands. The soul is already gone, thus no more interference. Also look at how you can't use color from a living person to fuel Awakening....but you can use color from spilled blood, blood that has separated from the body. This is where I believe Identity comes in. We know from Forgery and interactions with Shadesmar in The Stormlight Archive that everything has a physical manifestion, a cognitive Identity, and a Spiritual aspect. All things exist to some degree in all three Realms. And while we don't traditionally think of the Realms as stacked or in any kind of linear order, the way they're referred to does tend to leave the impression that the Cognitive Realm exists 'in between' the Physical and Spiritual Realms. The reason I think this is significant, is because in all instances we've seen of something becoming something else in the cosmere, it hinges on the alteration of something's Cognitive Identity, which is then followed by changes to the related Physical and/or Spiritual manifestations of that thing. The Cognitive Identity seems to act almost as not the bridge between Physical and Spiritual, but rather the lynchpin, ie how the Physical and Spiritual come together. Rather than forcing a transformation on one end of the Realmatic spectrum like the Physical or Spiritual and then that transformation trickle down the line to the others, transformation in the cosmere seems to focus on the lynchpin of something's Realmatic existence, alter its Cognitive Identity and then the subsequent transformation bleeds through in both directions, to the other Realms. We also know from Forgery and Cognitive-focused Surgebinding like Transformation that how an object 'views itself' is variable depending on even non-magical changes. A table leg existing as part of a whole, functional table doesn't have an Identity as a table leg or a single length of wood. It views itself as part of a whole. A table. A Soulcaster can transform that table by convincing its Cognitive Aspect in Shadesmar to change to something else. However, if that table is broken, the table leg splintered off from the whole for long enough, at a certain point that table leg no longer views itself as part of a table, or a broken part of a table, but rather its own distinct Identity. You come across a table leg lying in the garbage with no sign of where the rest of the table is or how long that table leg has been there, if you go into Shadesmar and find it's Cognitive Identity, you won't find a bead representing a table, but rather a table leg. Which explains why spilled blood can be used to fuel Awakening, once separated from a living person and the soul that person houses. It's not a matter of proximity, but of Identity. That spilled blood is no longer part of a Self-Contained Living Body Complete with Soul....it becomes its own Identity. Change a part of the whole's relationship to the whole, and you can change the way that individual part interacts with Investiture and the Awakening process. You're not changing the rules of Awakening...but you can reframe or alter the context of those rules by changing the way something exists Realmatically. My personal theory has always been that each Shard and their Investiture exist in all three Realms, but how much each Shard and their Investiture manifests or is concentrated in each Realm varies depending on Intent. Hence Shards whose Intents are more focused on the Physical Realm and things' state of existence within that Realm, physical processes, etc...Shards like Preservation and Ruin....this results in magic systems that are more focused on physical fuel and processes, consuming and burning metal with a direct result on physical forces. Then you have a Shard like Endowment, the Intent of giving or bestowing, and this to me speaks more of the Spiritual....this Intent isn't focused on specific things being given, thus its not Physical focused, and its not about the why of the giving, because you don't even have to give Breath of your own free will, you can be coerced to do it, which suggests that while Awakening has an obvious Cognitive component with Commands, ultimately Endowment and its Investiture is primarily Spiritual-centered, because it's about the essence of giving, that seems to be what matters most in the execution of its Intent. And consequently, it's fueled primarily by Investiture manifesting from the Spiritual Realm, via Breath....which doesn't seem to be the soul, specifically, but soul-adjacent. It's essentially the essence of sentient life, or linked to it, and while Awakening alters the Physical Realm and relies on the Cognitive Realm to be enacted, it operates by Endowing physical things with the essence of sentient life, enabling it to for a time exist in emulation of human life via that borrowed Breath. The reason I mention all THIS as relevant, because I think this is why you can't Awaken things with a living soul. It's related to how it's hard to affect already Invested things with external Investiture. Investiture isn't the same thing as the living soul....so even Spiritual-focused Investiture like Breath isn't quite the same thing as the living soul....but since the soul does seem to be the part of a living human that exists as their Spiritual aspect, Spiritual-rooted Investiture like Breath is very close to it. Perhaps close enough to it that a living thing's soul, or Spiritual Aspect, resists an Awakener's attempt to affect it with external Spiritual Investiture, much like we've been told Shardplate would be difficult to directly affect with allomancy. Anyway, all of this is to lay the groundwork for how and why Awakening has far more applications IF an Awakener is able to alter something's relationship to the living soul BEFORE attempting to Awaken it, with the easiest way to do this being altering how it views itself. There are a few possibilities for how I think this could be accomplished, but the most likely route I think would involve using Awakening on organic material not part of the living being the Awakener is trying to heal. Essentially, it would require the Nalthis version of stem cell research. All healing basically happens on the cellular level. So just like our own science has seen the possibility in harvesting stem cells (which are biological cells that can differentiate into different stem cells and then divide to make more of that same type) and introducing them into a sick person's body, so they can replace damaged cells (which is essentially what say, a bone marrow transplant is)....Awakeners could theoretically accomplish something similar by harvesting cells from umbilical cords at birth, separating them from the living soul they were initially a part of so that they become organic material with their own distinct Identity, just like spilled blood. And then, introducing these cells into a sick or wounded individual, an Awakener able to view them on a microscopic level via scientific equipment could possibly construct a series of commands by which they could Awaken these cells and direct them through specific processes designed to interact with the new host body in a variety of ways. I see a lot more potential in using Awakening with transplanted cells to cure diseases, by walking the Awakened cells through making the repairs the host body's damaged or missing cells are incapable of making. Actually healing wounds would be a lot trickier since it wouldn't be about doing repairs the host body can't do on its own, but rather accelerating already existing biological processes....but its still theoretically possible via the same theories. After all, the idea of using nanotechnology to heal wounds quickly is basically just the idea of programming nanites to replicate the functions of biological cells at an accelerated rate.....Awakeners would just be skipping the middle step of designing machines to do this, and Awakening stem cells to do this themselves. Of course, this would all be extremely complicated and involve insanely intricate Commands, but if Awakeners can figure out Commands for getting Lifeless to emulate the basic functions of a living body, with enough scientific advancement this shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility, IF cells could feasibly be Awakened if separated from a living body first. I don't think its something the average Awakener would ever be capable of, but consider Awakeners with specific fields of expertise and years of schooling.....medical Awakeners could be the Nalthis equivalent of oncologists or surgeons.

I totally interpreted this thread title wrong and was off and running, picturing a college student in Silverlight writing their thesis comparing the television shows on Roshar, Scadrial, Sel, Nalthis and various other cosmere planets and delineating what cultural, sociopolitical, and even ecological and magical elements of each respective world contributed to the distinct natures of what each world tended to produce in terms of entertainment content. Ie, television on Roshar is some form of Illumination fabrial showing content whose storylines all have strong themes of Honor, while Scadrial tends to prefer live entertainment such as plays where audiences and actors tap various metalminds storing Connection or burn emotion-linked metals as part of the experience and ANYWAY I DIGRESS ahem apologies for thread-jacking, continue as you were.

1) Well, no, I'm not sure this is a given? True, I worded my post wrong, but I was using 'of Adonalsium' as shorthand for any Investiture that wasn't specifically of Honor, Cultivation or Odium and predated their arrival, since its not like we know every Shardic Intent by name. My point is that per that very quote you linked there...whatever mechanism existed for determining what Investiture located elsewhere throughout the cosmere became associated with what Shard, there's no reason to assume it limited Investiture on Roshar to only becoming linked with Honor, Cultivation and Odium since none of those three became linked to that world immediately after the Shattering and were present elsewhere in the cosmere before they arrived on Roshar. In fact, IMO there's every reason not to assume that. There are spren for just about every phenomenon in creation, and this includes numerous types that really have nothing to do with Honor, Cultivation or Odium. Which only makes sense given that three out of sixteen Intents stemming from the initial power of creation wouldn't cover or connect to everything the fully combined power/intent behind creation created. This is the WoB about all spren being of Honor, Cultivation or a mix of both....and I think people assume too much from it? The fact that he specifies the spren you are running into rather than all spren, or even just all spren other than Voidspren, or not of Odium, makes me think that he intended this answer to be a reference to the spren who are relevant to the plot. Basically, the ones who can form Nahel bonds, or at least have enough of a degree of sentience to interact with the characters. This isn't the same thing as him saying every spren on Roshar became linked to the Investiture of those three Shards and those three Shards alone at the time of the Shattering. It's just as likely that the Investiture comprising the spren on Roshar at the time of the Shattering became associated with whatever Shard whose Intent their nature or essence paired with. As an example, between Honor, Cultivation and Odium, its theoretically possible that something like rotspren are made up of Cultivation's Investiture....but assuming rotspren existed on Roshar long before Cultivation arrived, its just as possible that their Investiture is associated with say, Ruin, the Intent of entropy and decay. For all we know, the reason some spren are sentient and some aren't might not just be because only certain types gain sentience through their interactions with sentient beings from the Physical Realm and their ideas/perceptions....it also could be related to whether the Shard their Investiture is linked to is Invested in Roshar as a whole. Hence, the spren we are running into, ie the spren who interact with the characters, form bonds with them, are significant to the plot....these spren are all of Honor or Cultivation (or Odium), because being made up of the same Investiture that makes up the Shards actively Invested in their world might be what separates them from the mindless spren who are all associated with Shards that are light years away or Shattered or largely Invested elsewhere. So for all we know, if Ruin had come to Roshar instead of forming Scadrial with Preservation, perhaps his presence and Investiture might have meant that it'd be rotspren and all other Ruin-associated spren that were capable of evolving sentience. There are spren for most every physical phenomenon AND spren for most emotions and even ideals....and the arrival of the three Shards on Roshar didn't create any of these things. They existed before they got there, spren existed before they got there, so it doesn't make much sense to me that even honorspren and cultivationspren didn't exist until Honor and Cultivation arrived and actively began Investing in Roshar, splitting off Splinters, etc. Honor's presence isn't required for the idea of Honor to exist on other worlds he's not on, so the concept of Honor should have existed on Roshar long before he arrived as well....which means, there's no reason honorspren wouldn't have existed before he arrived too. Maybe his arrival, his active Investing simply meant that the spren who were already associated with him, or partially associated with him, began to gain sentience because as we've often heard....enough Investiture will eventually gain sentience, even on its own. Spren associated with Shards far removed from Roshar are too minute, too far removed from the whole of their parent Shard to ever gain that sentience, but spren associated with one or more of the three Shards actually present on Roshar have the potential because the sources of their own Investiture are right there, amplifying or reflecting or simply resonating with their own. So this is what I was getting at with Odium co-opting spren that aren't specifically of the three Shards on Roshar. Let's look at Ashertmarn: Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, is the final of the three great Mindless Unmade. His gift to men is not prophecy or battle focus, but a lust for indulgence. He's specifically referred to as one of the Mindless Unmade, implying that he doesn't have the sentience shown by spren we KNOW to be mostly comprised of the Investiture of any of the three Roshar Shards. Consider also that his nature doesn't seem to have much to do with any of the three Roshar Shards either. Revelry or self-indulgence....whichever way you look at his nature, neither of those has much to do with the Intent of Honor. Neither do they seem to have much to do with Cultivation....you could make a case for the latter, something about how cultivation is linked to people being able to enjoy themselves, civilization progressing to the point of parties and enjoyment rather than simply survival, wine and other things being the product of cultivation techniques....but all of those seem like quite a reach, IMO. What I'm proposing is that Ashertmarn is associated with another Shard, most likely one whose Intent we don't know yet. This supposedly ancient spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering, so when that happened, as the WoB you linked said, the Investiture that comprised Ashertmarn became the Investiture of whatever Intent was most closely linked to his nature. Revelry doesn't seem to have much to do with any of the known Intents, I don't think, but imagine one of the unknown Shards has an Intent related to revelry....not that specifically perhaps, but something like Joy or anything that encompasses simply taking pleasure in being alive, enjoying or being grateful for the creation around you. That actually sounds a lot like how the Listeners pre-human arrival are described as being, their way of life, doesn't it? Existing peacefully on Roshar, not possessed of the same drive the initial Voidbringers brought with them to war among themselves, a people whose existence revolved around music and song. They certainly sounded like a people who took pleasure in just being alive, full of celebration. Of Revelry. So just like I believe honorspren existed before the arrival of Honor, since his presence isn't necessary to CREATE Honor....some distant Shard with a name like Revelry or Joy or Thankfulness or whatever it might be....their presence wouldn't be necessary for something like a revelryspren to exist. Its distance would mean it was mindless, according to my train of thought. BUT if the Listeners threw enough revels, enough celebrations, created enough of the phenomenon it was linked to often enough, it could still be present enough or noteworthy enough - especially to them - that when Odium Invested in Roshar to continue his war with Honor and Cultivation, it was one of the perfect candidates for Odium to Unmake and reshape in his image. Large, frequently present and thus well known to the Listeners, most likely having great significance to them because some kind of large celebrationspren linked to or appearing in concert with their greatest celebrations....he would be an ideal symbol for Odium to have the Listeners rally behind. Splintering enough of his power and Investing it directly into this pre-existing ancient spren, Odium could fill it with enough Investiture that while it still was made up of the same Investiture of that unknown Shard it was originally associated with....now it was also made up of even MORE of Odium's Investiture, enough that it makes it more OF him than of that initial Shard. And so, the presence of Odium's Investiture as a large source of his power now means that his 'gift' is now more in accordance with Odium's Intent than whatever it was initially. But because he wasn't ORIGINALLY of Odium, his new influx of Odium's Investiture just amplified whatever his gift or effect he previously had....but now refocused through the lens of Odium's Intent. The end result being, the Heart of Revels might pre-Odium have been a spren who inspired or amplified a feeling of revelry, of celebration in the Listeners. But post-Odium, the Intent not just of feeling hatred but of inspiring hatred....that same gift now became enflaming that desire to celebrate, amplifying the passion for it to the point of excess....and so celebration, someone rejoicing in what they have becomes self-indulgence, celebrating beyond the point of moderation, gluttony, greed....the kind of oblivious merriment that inspires hatred in those who don't have the luxury of throwing wild parties where they can feast and drink to their heart's content. Basically, the exact kind of resentments we see lots of people holding against the Alethi nobility....the kind of people Ashertmarn's 'gift' is given to, making and keeping them the focus of other peoples' hatred and inspiring and encouraging dissent in accordance with Odium's Intent. So yes, his gift enflames passions that aren't innately hateful in and of themselves....which according to what I was saying above, is something that's only possible because his gift didn't initially stem from Odium's Investiture, but from a Shard all about rejoicing or celebrating or being thankful. Because that's not a passion Odium can inspire or create....only turn into a source of hatred, amplifying until it eclipses everything else for a person and makes them a symbol of greed and gluttony and wastefulness to everyone around them who doesn't have these things and now feels nothing but hatred for them. 2) As for the Thrill being our only example of an emotion 'kind of' co-opted among the currenty unknown Unmade, again, I don't totally agree with your interpretation of the WoB you linked. He simply said kind of in response to someone essentially asking does the Thrill being red mean it's co-opted Investiture, since we've been told red is the color of corrupted Investiture. There's a lot of room for interpretation as to which part of that is kind of accurate. It doesn't actually mean that only a visibly red Unmade has been co-opted by Odium IMO, which seems to be your train of thought here. But Brandon often replies based on what he THINKS someone is trying to figure out with a specific question. Let me posit an alternative: If I were Brandon looking at that question, the way it was phrased, I might be responding to the assumption drawn by that question, not necessarily just the question itself. So maybe the Thrill is co-opted, the spren of another Shard Odium hijacked or unmade and reshaped the way I'm theorizing all the Unmade actually are...but maybe the kind of is because it shouldn't be assumed (as the question seems to) that the presence of red is a necessary indicator of Investiture being co-opted. What I mean is, just because we know certain things that are red have been because that's how corrupted Investiture looks in the cosmere, that doesn't necessarily mean ALL corrupted or co-opted Investiture is automatically red. Maybe a certain level or amount of external Investiture is needed before it becomes red or corrupted in general, or maybe the red is an indicator of a Investiture associated with a specific Intent is corrupted by another Shard whose Intent is in opposition of its original one. The red being a sign of the struggle between two Shards' Investiture and thus still an indicator of corrupted Investiture, but no longer a NECESSARY indicator, such as in instances where the original Investiture's Intent isn't specifically being subverted or corrupted. So to explore this line of thinking...the Heart of Revels isn't associated with red, and thus not obviously an example of Odium having corrupted another Shard's Investiture. But if like I outlined above, Ashertmarn's original Investiture was associated with a Shard all about joy and taking pleasure from life...and Odium's influx of Investiture simply amplified that gift of inspiring revelry to the point of excess, until it became self-indulgence that inspired hatred in others....Odium's Investiture and Intent were never in direct conflict with what was initially there. It simply added to it until it became something it wasn't intended to be, true, but it didn't require subverting what it was entirely. In contrast, what if the Thrill wasn't originally born of an Intent that Odium could simply add to and amplify? It inspires a battle rage, an unreasoning ferocity that drives people to mindless violence. Obviously an easy source of hate and something that would inspire hatred in those around people struck by the Thrill, their victims. But we've seen lots of instances in the cosmere already of where fighting is done because of Intents that are in opposition to Hatred. It's a common theme that sometimes its necessary to fight for the greater good, in defense of others. This came up a lot in the original Mistborn trilogy, in conjunction with Allomancy and Preservation. Snapping occurred in the defense of themselves or others. Acting to preserve live. Nergaoul is another of the three mindless Unmade, suggesting to me that its original Investiture was again linked to a Shard not native to Roshar. What if it was originally associated with Preservation? Its gift meant to inspire people to a fearless berserker state to fight in defense of life? Then Odium's efforts to Unmake it, to twist it in his image and to serve his purposes, that would require not just amplifying what was already there but actively corrupting it. Twisting its original Intent, which was in direct opposition to his, because he had no use for a gift that inspired people to preserve life, there's nothing to inspire hatred in that, he needed to make it so its initial Preservation Investiture wouldn't get in the way of taking life undeservedly....and that corruption of its initial Investiture's ESSENCE, not just the mixing of two Investitures, could be the reason the Thrill is red while the Heart of Revels and its influence is not.

Well the thing about Passion is its not really an Intent, not in the way any of the other revealed Shard names are. It makes sense for Rayse's own name for what he's become, his desire to rename himself something other than Hatred, because we all want to be the heroes of our own stories, and its very hard to continue to tell yourself you're the good guy when your Shard name, meant to reflect your essence, is the embodiment of Hatred. And for instance, when you've rallied to your cause native inhabitants of a world who were displaced and subsequently mistreated by the new arrivals, it is very easy to establish yourself as their patron, even if you're known as Odium, because they're entirely justified in hating those who have taken from them and harmed them. Not all hatred is innately bad, such as when its aimed at injustice. But its infinitely easier to establish yourself as their patron, rally them to your cause, if you're known to them as Passion, because it eliminates the negative connotations of being primarily motivated by hatred, and makes it that much easier for them, just like you, to feel confident in your own righteousness when you argue you're motivated by passion, rather than hatred. Because passion, while an emotion itself, is also frequently a qualifier for other emotions and intents. What I mean is pretty much anything else you feel or do, you can feel or do passionately. So Passion ENCOMPASSES Odium, or Hatred, because certainly anything you hate, you can hate passionately. And in fact, the more you hate something, the more passionate you are said to be....and even though you've dropped hatred from that description of yourself and are not directly acknowledging that what you are feeling is technically passionate hatred.....the hatred that incited your passion is still implicit, it hasn't gone away just because you're describing yourself as passionate. So my point is, Rayse calling himself Passion isn't inaccurate from a certain POV, but I don't think it could ever be more than an attempt to rebrand how he's perceived by others, it can't accurately describe or reframe his true Intent. Because Passion can describe Odium and everything within his purview, everything he stands for, but Odium itself can not adequately describe Passion and everything that should lie within its purview. Hatred can not be extended to being passionate about something joyful or truthful or anything with more definitively positive connotations, even though passion can be focused to be about hatred. As for the Unmade, they're spren as well as Splinters of Odium, right? So what if whatever it is within them that lets them enflame emotions other than Hatred (but always in the SERVICE of Hatred, furthering Odium's goals of enflaming discord and dissension among the people of Roshar), what if as was said above, a Splinter can not have an Intent that isn't part of their parent Shard's Intent.....but a Splinter that isn't just a piece of their parent Shard, but is also bonded to a sentient being that bears Investiture originating from someplace other than just their parent Shard, can feasibly have aspects to their Intent that come from their, rather than just their parent Shard. So, since spren are essentially all Splinters, perhaps whether Voidspren can enflame just negative emotions or positive and negative emotions depends on whose Splinters they are. Voidspren and Unmade who can only influence emotions stemming from or related to Hatred might be Splinters of Odium, but any Unmade who were initially Splinters of Adonalsium existing on Roshar before any of the Shards arrived, or Splinters of Honor or Cultivation that Odium co-opted by Investing enough of himself to make them more his Splinters than anyone else's....maybe these are the Unmade who can enflame joy and other positive emotions, because that's Odium's Investiture tapping into whatever's left over from other Investiture, like Adonalsium's pre-Shattering Investiture itself.

I've always said I think its a mistake to count Nalthis out of the heavy hitters, magic system wise. I know we have that WoB that it isn't as central to the greater cosmere plot as Shardworlds like Roshar and Scadrial and Sel, but I've always thought the reason Brandon said that could have a lot more to do with the fact that Nalthis only has one Shard, who seems content to stay out of the thick of things, and that's why Nalthis isn't as 'key' as other Shardworlds. Not because its magic, technology, or potential for its inhabitants to be major players are less than other Shardworlds. We really know very little about the full capabilities of Awakening when paired with advanced scientific knowledge. But I think its very notable that the single most powerful manmade artifact in the cosmere, Nightblood, is the product of Awakening (and an active attempt to hack another Shardworld's magic system, trying to replicate the Shardblades of Roshar), and some of the most knowledgeable people in the cosmere, the Five Scholars, are from Nalthis. Who not only created Nightblood, but also accomplished some of the other most magically significant feats in the cosmere, such as the creation of the Lifeless army. I think there's a great deal we don't know about Awakening still, and there's enough of a history of scientific/investiture exploration on Nalthis even early on in the cosmere timeline, I would be very surprised if the people of that planet weren't capable of space travel by the time Scadrial is at least. (Although I do think the nature of each Shardworld's magic lends itself to their respective scientific achievements being focused in different directions. For instance, given the nature of spren and the Surges, I highly expect Roshar to be the cosmere's leading expert in quantum physics someday, whereas Scadrial's sciences have the potential to be geared primarily towards the understanding and manipulation of molecular structures, etc, and the biological associations of Awakening and Biochroma give them obvious advantages in the fields of cellular and genetic manipulation, along with artificial intelligences. All of which have a great deal of crossover potential and can lead to a lot of the same scientific discoveries or achievements - its more accurate to say that the nature of the different magic systems sets things up for them to approach certain end scientific goals from very different distinct angles).

Although I agree The Ones Above likely aren't from Taldain for the reasons mentioned above, I definitely think people from Taldain are spacefaring by the time of Sixth of Dusk as well. And not just because of their stage of technological advancement relative to other worlds before the events of Elantris.....combine that with the fact that we know Autonomy restricted access to (and presumably from, or at least it would be a one way trip) Taldain via Shadesmar, and the inhabitants of that Shardworld have more reason than most worlds to focus on developing space travel. Other Shardworlds might not be in as much of a hurry to explore that possibility since they all (even those from Sel) have at least the capability of reaching other worlds via Shadesmar. Plus, given the fact that Taldain's star is at least connected to that world's Investiture and magic system in some way, their attention is more naturally directed offplanet just via exploring and learning more about their magic and how it works than is likely true of other worlds.

The reason I brought up Scadrial is not because the timeframes are identical - as you point out, The Final Empire on Scadrial lasted roughly a thousand years where the timetable we're talking about in the Rosharan system would be thousands of years. Rather, my point is look how stagnant Scadrial was throughout that thousand years under the Lord Ruler, in terms of both ecology and technology....with the only thing that kept that thousand years from being replicated for thousands more, was Sazed using the power of Shards to restore the planet's ecology and sow resources that allowed for a swift resurgence in technology and development. Which again, compared to Ashyn - if Ashyn's magic was only great enough to cause global devastation and permanent damage to that planet due to the Investiture of Shards, then it would make perfect sense that with those Shards' Investiture gone (or mostly gone), the survivors of Ashyn might not have been able to undue or compensate for the damage done to their world with the limited natural and magical resources they had left. Just like if on Scadrial, if Sazed hadn't had access to the Well and Preservation and Ruin's Investiture in the wake of the damage the Lord Ruler did when HE had access to the Well....then no one on Scadrial likely would have had the natural or magical resources to undo or reverse the damage the Lord Ruler had done. I guess the problem I'm having with the point you make about Odium not having interest in leaving the worlds he passes uninhabitable or making any permanent changes to them is that we know this isn't entirely true. You point to Sel and Threnody as examples of this, which I concede proves that destroying the worlds of rival Shards is not a direct aim of his, but I propose that I don't think that its his goal, but he doesn't exactly mind if it happens. Because see, Sel and Threnody aren't the only example of worlds Odium has left in his wake....we have a third example....the world the Voidbringers came from, bringing Odium with them, and which we know they (and Honor) at least believed to have left this world destroyed in their wake. We just don't know for sure what world it is, and whether it was fully destroyed or just devastated and assumed destroyed by those who left it. But either way, and whether this world is Ashyn as I believe or some other world, the history revealed about the Voidbringers invalidates the idea that Odium as a general rule doesn't make permanent changes to worlds he's passed on from or leave them uninhabitable. It didn't happen on Sel or Threnody, but that doesn't preclude it from being what happened to the original world of the Voidbringers, whatever world that was, and thus I can't see how Ashyn's current state invalidates the idea that Odium and the Voidbringers once came from there instead of potentially supporting it, you know? Similarly, I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning in regards to The Stormlight Archive. I agree that of course Odium's moves there seem predicated on freeing himself from the Oathpact and whatever else holds him bound to the Rosharan system and presumably killing Cultivation as well. But all his moves there are highly destructive, with the Desolations, the Everstorm, etc, all playing key roles in his attempts to advance his goals on Roshar. So I don't really see how you can argue that his actions are intended to free him to move on to another world and leave Roshar largely intact, making it a third world that doesn't match Ashyn in devastation....when even if we agree that his goal is not to destroy Roshar or its mortal inhabitants specifically, I see nothing that suggests it wouldn't be destroyed in the process or that the possibility his actions might result in its destruction regardless would change anything for him. As for the potential problem with Honor breaking oaths and bonds in order to fit this theory that he fled from Ashyn to Roshar....it doesn't sound very Honorable, I agree. But consider that we know it takes thousands of years before a Shard's Intent starts influencing or even overriding the Vessel's original personality....and the events we're all talking about here took place thousands of years in the past, and thus all the Vessels involved likely had a great more of their original personalities fueling their actions than simply being dictated by their Intents. So if the events with Ashyn were far enough back in the past, it might not have been particularly honorable or noble for Honor to divest himself from Ashyn and flee to Roshar...but that doesn't mean he COULDN'T, if Tanavast felt sufficiently motivated by any number of more human reasons. In fact from what little we've seen of Honor, he strikes me as someone who seemed to have a lot of regrets and self-recriminations, which certainly supports that idea. Finally, I do agree that events when laid out as I did in this thread seem a bit close together, and that it makes it sound like there was a very short time between Honor and Cultivation arriving on Roshar and gaining the Singers' reverence, and Odium following them. The truth is, we have no idea what kind of timetable we're looking at here or the scale of the timeline, and there are any number of reasons why Odium might not have followed Honor & Cultivation immediately. Maybe he was wounded or weakened by them and stayed on Ashyn for a time to recuperate before coming after them again. Maybe it took him awhile to withdraw his Investiture from Ashyn and that's part of why he prefers not to Invest in Shardworlds, it could be a more time consuming process for some Shards than others depending on their Intent or any number of factors. Or it could simply be the warped perspective of history, and maybe there wasn't much time between Honor/Cultivation's arrival and Odium's at all, and its only because of the way looking far back in history stretches our perception of lengths of time that makes it seem like the Singers spent long with just Honor and Cultivation before Odium came with the Voidbringers. What I mean by that is, most people when you mention Cleopatra, they'll immediately associate her with other things they know about ancient Egypt, like the pyramids, and unless they're students of history specifically, they're more likely to link her to the time of the pyramids in their head than they are with the modern day. And yet, the first of the Great Pyramids is thought to have been constructed around 2500 BC....while Cleopatra only died in 30 BC, which in the timeline of human history puts Cleopatra closer to the current year than it does the time of the pyramids. And this would come as a surprise to most people, because the instinct is to look at two events far back in history and because of how divergent both these things are from modern experiences, it makes more 'sense' in our minds to lump those two events closer together than to lump one of them closer to us, depending on the actual timeline involved. It could very well be the same phenomenon here in the Stormlight Archive. Because the characters are learning of these events that are all so far back in history and so removed from their current worldview, their sense of the actual timeline of events and the actual lengths of time linking or separating these distant historical events is skewed. And so in the lens of Rosharan history, it SEEMS to the characters like the Singers spent a considerable length of time basking in just the presence of Honor and Cultivation, unencumbered by the presence of Odium or the Voidbringers, when in actuality, we might find it wasn't so long a time in between these things at all.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm understanding your point correctly? Are you saying that if this all happened so long ago that Ashyn would be more recovered than what we've seen in Brandon's readings of Silence Divine? If so, I'd disagree, because look at Mistborn and how long Scadrial existed in a state of near ruin beneath clouds of volcanic ash with limited resources and a stagnant culture after The Lord Ruler used the power of the Well. It really just depends on 1) the nature of a cataclysm and 2) the resources a civilization has to apply towards recovery in its aftermath, more so than the actual length of time since a cataclysm. Since we're talking about magical events, we can't apply the same logic and timelines that we would to a natural disaster such as a fire or earthquake on our world, where yes, eventually people will recover. If the cataclysm on Ashyn was sufficiently destructive AND paired with the fact that by my theory of Ashyn's magic, it was drastically reduced once all three Shards had departed from it and taken most of their Investiture with them, I would argue it makes total sense that even with thousands of years passing since that point, civilization on Ashyn is still limited to just a few flying cities high over its surface where the survivors of the cataclysm concentrated their remaining resources and magic. They might have had enough to survive but not enough to make substantial alterations to however their planet had been affected, etc. As far as Investiture overflowing from nearby Roshar and supercharging Ashyn's ambient magic as a possibility, I concede its definitely possible, but I think its unlikely given that everything we know about Shards Investing in a Shardworld suggests that it's not easily done and carries some consequences for the Shard such as binding them to that world to various degrees. We also know it has a lot to do with the way a Shardworld's magic system is shaped, with the resulting magic being born of the interaction between Shards and planet. With all that in mind, this is just a gut impression but it does seem to me that the relationship between magic, Shardworlds and Shard Investiture is more intimate than simply regional, and that an overflow like you're describing is possible but doesn't really match. I don't know. I apologize, I can't really articulate any better than that at the moment why I'm opposed to this idea, it just doesn't feel quite right and I think I need to think about it some more before I can put my finger on why.

Sairys, thanks for providing that WoB - it is something I took into account, as it was definitely something to consider here. But to me, the most crucial part of that quoted interaction was when Brandon said this: This is the basis for why I don't believe Ashyn's magic can be explained by ambient Investiture, but rather that at some point a Shard or Shards must have been Invested in it, because while yes, I see the point you're making about bacteria being natural and having some similarities to First of Sun's symbiotic magic, the sticking point for me is that at some point in the past, Ashyn's magic was responsible for a global cataclysm. That LEVEL of magic seems to be the distinction Brandon is making when he says you're not going to find mistborn on a world with just ambient magic, or spren powerful enough to grant Surgebinding via a bond. I suppose its theoretically possible that a Shard's presence on a nearby world could enhance ambient magic, but I don't really see any particular reason to believe that over the possibility of Shards we know came from somewhere else Invested in this particular somewhere else. I would like to point out that my theory is based not on any one singular element I've proposed here, but rather the confluence of them. What I mean by that is, given our level of information, there are a hundred different possibilities for any one variable here.....we know that Odium came with the Voidbringers from a world they destroyed, but that could be Ashyn, it could be Braize, it could be another unknown world, etc. We know that Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar from somewhere else, but that could be any number of places. We know that bacteria on Ashyn grants magical abilities, but that could be due to ambient Investiture on Ashyn, a Splinter of Cultivation, remnants of Odium, or the Investiture of another unknown Shard. And so on and so on. So my theory is born of drawing a unifying conclusion via all these disparate things, ie something that posits an explanation for all of these elements in one go. It was never meant to be a dismissal of the fact that there are of course, other possible answers for any of these individual variables, as this is all just conjecture at this point.

One thing I'm curious about (and unsure where else to wonder about it) is what made Dominion and Devotion settle on Sel together in the first place? We know now that there was a kind of pact or agreement that Shards would stay away from each other, thanks to the Part 2 Epigraphs, and we know Ruin and Preservation paired off in part because they thought they could counterbalance each other and mitigate Ati's eventual corruption by his Intent, while Honor and Cultivation's vessels had a romantic connection. Autonomy seems to just like to meddle, and Odium seeks out other Shards to kill them. But why did Aona and Skai break the pact? Dominion and Devotion in some ways oppose each other but in other ways almost complement each other (ie the sense of nationalistic identity that fuels many of the magics on Sel can be seen as Devotion to one's Dominion or empire). So they're not an obvious counter to each other in such a way that they could balance or cancel each other out the way that Ruin and Preservation sought to, but neither are they an easy or obvious complement of Intents. Additionally, we have inklings that Skai was not such a great guy, so it would seem unlikely that he and Aona had anything like Honor and Cultivation's personal connection....unless Skai was corrupted by his Intent of Dominion similar to Ati's devolution into Ruin. So honestly, I'm at a loss as to what drew them together if its being near each other and violating this pact that put them on Odium's hit list in the first place. It's likely we simply just don't have enough information yet to draw any kind of actual conclusions, but Sel and its history and its Shards remains one of the most mysterious aspects of the cosmere to me, so this pact (albeit one that seems rather informal and more of 'guidelines' for Shards to follow rather than a hard and fast rule) and the fact that they broke it feels significant to me. Anyone else have any theories why?

But that still leaves us with the same questions: Why would Odium, who by Brandon's own admission dislikes Investing and thus tying himself to a Shardworld, (and whom a second WoB says that Odium does have an interest in mortals beyond just using them against other Shards, but that his primary motivation is killing other Shards) Invest in Braize if not as part of his efforts to kill Honor & Cultivation, his primary motivation? And if Odium Invested in Braize because Honor & Cultivation were Invested there before Roshar, then again that leaves the question: where does Ashyn's magic come from if not the result or remnant of Investiture from Cultivation and Honor?

Well something else in support of the Tranquiline Halls being Ashyn that I neglected to include in my initial post is just Occam's Razor. We know that there is at least one magic that predates the Shattering - Hoid's Yolish Lightweaving. Similarly, we know the symbiotic magic system on the world from Sixth of Dusk is not fueled by a full Shard, but rather is assumed to be fueled by a Splinter or lingering Investiture from a Shard that had previously Invested in that world. We have WoBs that magic systems can be fueled by Splinters rather than just full Shards, but those Splinters all have to come from somewhere of course. So with the sole exception of the Lightweaving that was present before the Shattering, on the world all the Shards hail from, every other magic system we've seen or heard mention of in the cosmere draws upon a Shard's Investiture, either in full or via a Splinter. So, we've got a world that's right next door to Roshar in a star system that has been embroiled in the conflict between three Shards for thousands of years - one of those Shards infamous for being the Shard most fixated on killing all of his potential rivals. We have the letter in Oathbringer that's presumably from Autonomy - the Shard most infamous for meddling throughout the cosmere - saying even they have no interest in Rayse's prison, aka the greater Rosharan system (since we have WoB that Rayse is bound to the system as a whole, not just Roshar). We also have a letter in Oathbringer that's presumably from Endowment and speaks of a pact between all sixteen original Vessels, which stated that they should avoid each other, and because Skai and Aona did not adhere to this pact, the Shard who sent that letter has no sympathy for them, or presumably for Honor and Cultivation, who did the same. All of which is to suggest that even though Ruin, Preservation, Dominion, Devotion, Honor and Cultivation all paired up rather than stick to the pact, and even though Autonomy meddles on other Shardworlds (if we assume she's Trell) and Odium seeks out rivals to kill, the standing agreement between the remaining shards is to avoid each other. We also have WoBs that Odium is leery of Investing in a Shardworld, and prefers not to, which suggests that when he does so, as he's done on Roshar, its in reaction to other Shards and part of his attempt to Shatter and kill them. Then we have the reading from The Silence Divine that states that although we're not aware of the full capabilities of Ashyn's disease magic as it stands now, at some point in its history that magic was powerful enough to be responsible for a worldwide cataclysm. And finally, we know that the humans on Roshar had to come from somewhere, and wherever they came from, they unleashed a magical cataclysm that destroyed it, or near to. So, with all of that being things that we know and can extrapolate conclusions from, what are the chances then that some other unknown fourth Shard at some point Invested in a world near to the heart of a fatal and lengthy conflict between three other Shards, one of them infamous for targeting and killing other Shards, and that their Investiture was fuel for humans to destroy most of their civilization in a manner similar to the origin we now have for Rosharan humans? And related to that, if there was no fourth Shard in the Rosharan system, what are the odds that Odium, who doesn't like to Invest and thereby bind himself to a Shardworld if he doesn't have to, found a reason to do that on Ashyn if it wasn't in response to Cultivation and/or Honor already being Invested there, and part of his attempt to Shatter and kill them? While Occam's Razor should never be taken as proof of anything, it seems to me that given we know that humans on Roshar had to come from somewhere, and that the civilization destroying magic on Ashyn had to draw fuel from somewhere, it requires far more coincidences and parallel plotlines to assume yet another Shard has been present in the Rosharan system's history and that resulted in events that were similar to the original Voidbringers destroying their home and traveling to Roshar yet were not these actual events themselves. The timeline in my head now is as follows: - The Shattering - Odium targets Ambition, who by virtue of their Intent (and perhaps due to previous history between their Vessels) was seen by him as the greatest potential threat, Shatters her - Odium becomes aware that Dominion and Devotion have both settled on Sel together, and targets them as this makes them a potential threat to him as well, Shatters them. Depending on how the process of Shattering Shards works, its possible that this required he temporarily Invest on Sel, and withdrew his Investiture once they were Shattered and he departed that world - or perhaps if the process of Shattering is different depending on the specific conflict, he didn't need to Invest in this world to Shatter Aona and Skai. - Odium becomes aware that Honor and Cultivation have both settled on Ashyn together, and makes them his next target. Note that this doesn't mean Honor and Cultivation settled somewhere together AFTER Devotion and Dominion, but perhaps simply means that Odium targeted Aona and Skai first because he found them first, had a more personal stake in killing them first, or considered their potential pairing a greater threat to him than Honor and Cultivation's. - For some reason, Honor and Cultivation are more difficult for Odium to Shatter than Ambition, Devotion or Dominion were, and they put up more of a fight. Odium Invests in Ashyn as well, and uses his Investiture and the resulting magic to sway humans to his cause and pit them against Honor and Cultivation. - Honor and Cultivation see Ashyn as a lost cause and retreat, withdrawing most if not all of their Investiture from Ashyn. (I have a theory I made years ago that using a Shard's Investiture against the parent Shard - ie wielding the magic born of it in direct opposition to a Shard's Intent, like using Surgebinding dishonorably or to halt or destroy progress rather than cultivate it - this weakens a Shard and makes it easier to Shatter them. If this is in any way true, then Honor and Cultivation, seeing their magic systems corrupted by Odium's Investiture and the mortals of Ashyn turned against them, might have thought it better to abandon Ashyn as a lost cause and retreat to Roshar to start anew, hoping to make a stronger stand against Odium there. Which would provide an explanation for Honor and Cultivation arriving on Roshar together BEFORE the Voidbringers destroyed their world and arrived with Odium. Again, just a theory, but I present it if only as proof of the fact that there are a number of ways to explain Honor and Cultivation fleeing to Roshar from Ashyn even before it was destroyed). - Honor and Cultivation Invest in Roshar. - The Voidbringers destroy most of Ashyn with their corrupted magic, which has to do with both the Dawnshards and the disease/bacteria magic of Ashyn (or else both those things are somehow linked and part of the same magic system) but is now primarily fueled by Odium's Investiture and some remnants of Cultivation (ie, if she left a Splinter behind). - The Voidbringers flee doomed Ashyn to Roshar, and Odium reclaims his Investiture from Ashyn and joins them, so he can pursue the escaped Honor and Cultivation. - Odium Invests in Roshar, resumes his conflict with Honor and Cultivation. - Honor binds Odium via the Oathpact. - Nine of the Heralds abandon the Oathpact. - Honor is finally weakened enough that Odium is able to Shatter him, the Stormfather becomes a Cognitive Shadow of Honor. - For whatever reason, Odium is still unable to Shatter Cultivation, either as he is too weakened by his conflict with Honor to confront her directly, or perhaps because she left a Splinter behind on Ashyn and he's hesitant to make a move just yet because destroying her entirely would thus require his own return to Ashyn to eliminate her last Splinter, which he either can not do until the Oathpact is entirely obliterated, or he chooses not to before he's completed his goals on Roshar.