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101 House Lord

About Goatborn

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  • Birthday 06/27/1988

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  1. This came up in another discussion on reddit and got my brain moving. I did a quick search on here and didn't spot anything that lined up with my points below - admittedly, "Aon Dor" does show up a lot of results. I posted in Cosmere because this post alludes to the Aon hacking that is used off-world. The original question was regarding the possibility of a "minimum safe distance" from Elantris to avoid being Reod - primarily through world hopping. The more I think about it (and guided by Sanderson's use of the word hacking) the more I think of the Aon Dor like an operating system. Dor = internet Elantris/surrounding land = Router/modem Aon Dor = user interface/OS on your phone Elantrians = end user The hack might involve setting up WiFi repeaters on other worlds, near Perpendicularities with similar geography or structures to original Aon set. I would be keeping an eye out for any buildings or Roshar or other hubworlds that mention an unusual wall or trench leading away at an angle. Raoden's magic may have been just one of a few possible operating systems out there. If there was Aon-Dor around that was tied to another physical location, then another OS might be floating around out there. Since a continuous connection to Elantris appears to be required to remain non-Reod, then I would suggest that there is no minimum safe distance. The problem wasn't data corruption, it was a lack of signal. On hacking the Aon Dor: The WOBs on worldhopping Elantrians allude to the magic system being 'hacked' to be usable off-world. The issue is that every Aon uses the same base - the one with a chasm now. If any off-world Elantrians were using a hacked version of the Dor that still used the same base Aon, then they would have been cut off from their magic in the same way, with no idea why it happened. The other side of this is the level of knowledge needed to hack the system. As of the events of Elantris, it's possible that no Elantrians understood the Dor well enough to get it working offworld, let alone hop with it. Surely if that level of knowledge was available when the Reod first happened, someone would have worked out the chasm update much sooner. A worldhopping Elantrian who had that knowledge may have been able to diagnose and fix the problem, but if they did, they likely would have had to fix the whole system like Raoden did to return a connection. According to the timeline (from my current understanding): Elantris is set earliest, so the subsequent worldhoppers in Secret History and Stormlight were probably hopping long after Raoden's adventures - likely benefiting from a huge leap forward in understanding the Dor.
  2. What if there's something wrong with the Soulcast Aluminum? It was suggested above that what they're Soulcasting might not actually be aluminum in the wider Cosmere sense, but another metal mistaken for it on Roshar. However, the actual Soulcasting process might be producing Physically correct aluminum, but not providing the Spiritual connection that provides the Investiture-sink (great term!) property. Hence, commonly available aluminum on Roshar would be nearly useless unless backed up by a fabrial to supply spiritual power, while naturally occurring (meteorite) aluminum comes with pre-packaged properties. (There is a WoB that Soulcasting is a spiritual change for an item, so maybe I'm totally off-base) The back and forth between Sanderson and Peter is fantastic, and also indicates that we could have the correct answer today, while being totally wrong tomorrow. Or there's the extra nuance of an incorrect name for the metal local to Roshar.
  3. There's heaps of agreement going around! I do like a good scientific discussion that doesn't devolve into hard math! I completely forgot about the general increase in height over the last few centuries. Maybe we're all spending more time in bed, so gravity has less of an influence on us? Boom, solved ages old conundrum! (Let's ignore the fact that with the invention of electric light we're probably spending more time out of bed) I think the piece of the puzzle we're missing is Odium's aim or true intent. Humans and singers refer to him as a god of hate, he presents himself as a god of passion, and we know Rayse was a bit of a tool before he picked up the Shard. Both passion and hate can provide motivation for him jumping around different sides of a war just to feed the fires, so I don't know how he ended up on one side or the other. I think this could be explained by Honor and Odium being in a vague conflict when they both landed on the same planet, Investing with a lack of structure and getting used to each other. Odium starts picking a more formal fight (because that's what he does) and Honor has to step up to take him on (because Honor, and there's been a few splinterings in that time). At that point, Honor would necessitate rules to follow, so each Shard/god picks a team, Honor chooses humans because he sees a chance to slow everything down with the Oathpact, while Odium takes the singers because he can lie to them through song (they're a bit more passionate, and also kinda immortal, and dying has GOT to piss you off - they might even be pre-Invested by Honor/Cultivation, so it doesn't take a big commitment from him to pick their team?). Cultivation just kinda hangs out, watching them fight and trying to help occasionally, but likely can't do much because of Honor's rules.
  4. Okay, I think we're going to nerd it up for a post or two. Evolution via random mutation takes hundreds of thousands of years, so I doubt that under normal conditions we would see any evidence of this in the time since the Ashyn exodus to current era. However, that doesn't account for the added selection pressures of frequent desolations, and the accelerated nature of Investiture. In a more real-world context, epigenetics produces change in gene activation based on physiological pressures, causing subsets of modern Earth humans to have traits that otherwise aren't readily explained by long-term Darwinian adaptation. This is the part that gets under my skin a little bit. The implication in Oathbringer was that Odium sided with humanity first, driving them to conquest. Then at some point he switched sides? Rosharan history is still such a mess. Maybe with more of the Dawnchant being translated we'll get a bit more context. If Odium invested Ashyn, then travelled across with humans to Roshar, it answers a few questions about their destruction of an entire planet, but raises whole new ones like how did surges exist without Honor or Cultivation's input?
  5. Exactly. The changes we see in terms of height of Rosharans would have been apparent a generation or two in. The Shin being shorter likely just represents a genetic predisposition to being short, like Asian/Mongoloid body types on Earth. It produces some interesting questions regarding the genetic variations present before migrating from Ashyn, as well as why the Shin (the genetic subset) remained in Shinovar honouring the original deal with the Dawnsingers.
  6. Maybe normal for you, Earther! Duster for life over here! (Always good to see another Expanse fan - I need to get my hands on Perseopolis Rising, and can't wait to see Amos and Peaches interact next season!) I'm in the camp that Szeth didn't know prior to Nale's revelation, and I agree that the wider population likely had no special knowledge. I feel like the Shamanate might have some intact history from that time, or at least be acting on directives handed down from that time. I am stupid curious about where they stand in it all.
  7. [Originally posted on r/stormlightarchive, and figured that I'd bring it over here. The more I think about it, the more interested I am in Shinovar. I think they've got some serious secrets. A poster pointed out a WoB that confirms Rosharan humans originated on Ashyn] Another random observation that's probably been noticed, but I haven't seen on here. (That kinda spiraled into a general post about the Shin) The going theory at the moment is that Humans in the Roshar system originated on Ashyn - WoB states that there was a cataclysm there, with small pockets of civilisation living in cloud cities as a result. Hence, the idea that humans caused said cataclysm and jumped ship to Roshar (planet) with their advanced tech/powers. We know that when humans first arrived on Roshar, they were given the Shin lands in the West because it was most like their natural habitat and they could raise horses, chickens etc. I just noted that the word Shin is very similar to the back end of Ashyn. If humans were introducing themselves on another planet, they would likely introduce themselves as the 'Ashyn' people. Over millennia, that would boil down to Shin. This also ties back to the Shin culture and the amount of control they (likely) secretly hold over the cosmic Shard war raging in the background, implying that their histories passed down hold a lot more accurate knowledge that the rest of Roshar had available. The aversion to walking on stone has been noted previously as a possible link to the fact that the Dawnsingers owned the rocky portions of the continent, and might actually have developed as a belief due to the guilt surrounding the original voidbringers' actions. Another interesting point is the circumstances of Szeth's Truthless stamp. He claimed that the voidbringers were returning. If the Shin hold a better history than the rest of humanity, then Szeth's original claim might be interpreted oddly. If he was referring to the 'modern' voidbringers (the Fused), then his story plays out unchanged - he saw a crisis coming and was ignored. Now, if we look at the ancient use of the word voidbringer, then he may have been referring directly to Radiants or any forms of power. I'm having trouble putting this one together in my head, because I might have been missing some nuances in Szeth's lines. He flips out when there's a possibility of Kal being Radiant, as this would confirm his suspicion of the return of voidbringers. Without the revelations of Oathbringer, this was read as Radiants returning providing indirect proof that modern voidbringers were going to be stomping about soon. Going by the ancient definition, he may have predicted the return of ancient voidbringers with Kaladin as direct proof of their return. All of this has to go through a few layers of culture and Shin development. If the Ashyn histories were preserved to the point that knowledge of the first desolation remains, then we would have to wonder how pervasive this knowledge would be. The way that Sanderson writes religion, I would assume that the general populace is completely unaware of this information and holds to their devout beliefs as a matter of culture. In this scenario, the higher up members of Shin culture (the council who exiled Szeth) would have more context to their religion - possibly holding knowledge from before the move to Roshar, but more likely having gaps in their knowledge due to the sheer time passed since then (and repeat Desolations). I can't speculate on whether Szeth would have been privy to this information, but don't recall any great surprise when Nale drops the voidbringer revelation on him. Szeth just doesn't seem to react to much with surprise though. In terms of how Szeth gained his knowledge in the first place without leaving Shinovar - I think that comes down to his training with the Honorblades. Discounting the possibility of seeing the future (just because Odium influencing him here seems a little off to me) multiple Radiant orders have experienced visions of the present day (scrying?). Kaladin's storm riding visions showed him Ash scratching eyes. Shallan had an instance where she accidentally drew the sailors washing up on a shore, but in Oathbringer she did another drawing that seemed to confirm this ability (can't remember exactly when - maybe while she was still in Urithiru?). These seem like Order-specific perks that we don't know transfer with Honorblades. Another option is that Szeth did something unusual regarding the Honorblades and gained knowledge that way, something along the lines of wielding multiple blades at once during his training. Questions that would help guide this thinking: 1. How open is the Shin religion among its members with its information/history? Does even the lowest warrior know as much as the highest councilmember? 2. Does every Shin train with the Honorblades, just the warriors, or a select subset of warriors? 3. Have the Shin been known to use parshmen slaves? I don't recall any being mentioned in Vstim's trade in WoK, but Rysn was focused on the warriors being dressed so poorly. TL;DR - The Shin know things, man, and they're not sharing. And Ashyn=Shin over time. Edit: A quote from Szeth's interlude in WoR (I-10) - This is immediately post his first clash with Kaladin, and he is standing atop Urithiru contemplating the fact that his Truthless status might be in error: "He had fought an impossibility. A man with Stormlight, a man who knew the storm within. That meant... problems. Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm, it had been said. The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him. The spirits of the stones themselves promised it. The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains. All that remains... Truthless." Later, on contemplating his inefficiency with Stormlight: "Too imperfect a body. The Knights Radiant... they'd been said... they'd been said to be better at this... like the Voidbringers." Time to re-read Nale's discussion with him over the Battle of Thaylenar. (To be continued!) Edit 2: Nale/Nin/aboshi fills Szeth in on the Voidbringer revelation off-screen. When we return to them, they hover over the battlefield observing Amaram's forces go Thrilltastic. (Ch 116, Alone) (beginning of the Sanderson Avalanche): {Throughout this passage, there are no emotional qualifiers used to describe Szeth's speech. It reads as a purely logical discussion of lawyers deciding which code is relevant based on the parshmen being the original owners of the land.} "All along," Szeth said, "this world belonged to the parshmen. My people watched not for the return of an invading enemy, but for the masters of the house." (I read that as a surprised statement, but it is difficult to draw conclusions) {Jumping ahead, Nale asks Szeth to join him in backing the singers. Szeth's inner monologue is as follows:} "Wind rippled Szeth's clothing. All those years ago, he'd been correct. The Voidbringers had returned. Now... now he was to simple accept their rule?" Later in the fighting, Szeth continues to refer to Fused combatants as Voidbringers. I think I've pulled apart a bit of my theory a little too well. I've placed myself in the camp that Szeth was unaware of the revelations of the First Desolation prior to being informed by Nale. This still leaves the question of how much the religious leaders of Shinovar (the Shamanate) know/knew prior to the Battle of Thaylenar. Regardless, the implications of having a culture on Shinovar with very direct/lasting Ashyn influences is very interesting. I'm going to have to go through and look closely at references to the Shin so far.
  8. My bad! I thought the spren went unnamed throughout the exchange.
  9. Specifically, I'm talking about Mraize's letter explaining the Ghostbloods and a few of the players in Roshar, sent to Shallan early in the book (Part 2?). The section of note was related to Amaram's army and his Radiants. In the letter, Mraize expresses surprise that Kaladin came from Amaram's army because the only Radiant he knew about in that army had been confirmed dead a while before Amaram's got his shards. I think this is a pretty obvious point in the "Tien was a Radiant/protoRadiant" column. There was WoB that Tien was doing something significant with his rocks, and there's also the fact that there's 3 main characters who were in that army: Kaladin, Tien and Amaram. Kaladin is confirmed as not being the dead Radiant. Tien is a likely candidate, as he was long dead before the events that began elevating Kal. Amaram is also a possibility, though - it's possible that he attracted a spren from his single mindedness that he was doing the right thing, then fragmented that bond by being the jerk we all know. That could lead Mraize to assume that the 'radiant' had died, but it's a bit of a stretch. I couldn't find a thread focusing on Mraize's letter, so hopefully I didn't double us up.
  10. It might shackle the higher order spren. When Shallan was trying to open the Oathgate in Kholinar, she had a brief conversation with a spren who said they'd try to help her, or at least not hurt her too much. I'd assume that this was the corrupted gate spren, trying to limit the influence of the corruption over normal function. We also know that you can chat with gatespren and they have some kind of personality - the Thaylen gatespren in Shadesmar seemed remorseful that they couldn't go against orders. Shallan's orders at the end of the book raise the possibility that she was speaking with Sja-Anat directly, but I think this is less likely. In this context, Sja would be trying to help without drawing attention, not fighting Odium's control.
  11. I don't have the exact quote, but Dalinar has a conversation with the Stormfather in the first half of the book about this topic. He (correctly?) surmises that Nightwatcher is Bondsmithable, then enquires about the third. Stormfather replies with anger, shutting down the conversation with "you've already hurt them enough" My impression was that the third was the only bonded Bondsmith spren at the time of Recreance. The scary part is that if the unique spren had a more traditional Nahel bond, then there could be a shardblade lying around that belongs to an ancient Bondsmith. It would also explain Stormfather's one caveat of no blade transformations. From the Stormfather's words on the topic, I felt like he was implying that the third spren was safe (and hopefully just slumbering like Syl was) but out of action at the moment.
  12. My interpretation from BoM and Secret History was that Kel had returned to flesh as a Mistborn as he was previously, but with the added knowledge he'd picked up from bathing in the Well for years as well as holding Preservation briefly. Once he had his body back, he decided to delve into Hemalurgy as a way of gaining the full Feruchemical power set. I don't think he's a natural/organic feruchemist. All this kinda goes back to Kelsier's motivations for me. Him overthrowing the Final Empire wasn't about freeing his people, it was doing something huge that no one else could do. (Altruism may have leaked in there a little, but he was always an egomaniac, right to his death). Now that he completed that goal and punched a couple of gods, he's got loftier things in mind. He set himself up as a Lord Ruler analogue to prove that he could do so much better as Sovereign. After that point, I think his next step would be either a Hoid style Investiture grab, or he's going to gun for an individual shard. Although, his patriotism might win out a little and he'll start addressing Cosmere threats to Scadrial now that he's aware of enemies at the gates, like the intruders in the fortress (who I assume were from Sel). He could act as the Cosmere's version of the Punisher - an Investiture pumped individual with a loose moral code who isn't afraid to punch first. Back on topic, I see the Bands as more of an individual recruitment drive. I don't think they were intended to function as a race-wide game changer otherwise he would have made 16 of them (or more) so the Southerners would have plenty of fire-power (Keeping in mind that the Northerners have a full blown double shard watching over them). The Bands smack of a moral fiber test: 1. Is someone smart/strong/bold-as-Kel enough to find the Bands? 2. Will they use the limited power wisely? Will they defend the realm or try to Lord Ruler it up? Remember that the Bands had very limited charge - enough for someone unskilled to single-handedly win a one-sided battle, but not enough to raze a city without a lot of skill. (In my estimate anyway, with the vague terms that the Bands were discussed after the final fight) I wouldn't be surprised if Sovereign or Marsh show up soon after the Bands have been found to weigh up the Wax posse.
  13. Whoa. Too deep. I was totally ready to be flippant and be all "Where do the physical things come from? What about the cognitive!?" Then I realised that the physical remains in the physical and cognitive remains with the 'person,' leaving the Spiritual aspect still super hazy and undefined. I don't think we know enough about this soul, and I actually don't think that it'll ever be properly defined unless there's a series of books structured like a talk show with Hoid interviewing the major players in the Cosmere and ends up sitting down with Adonalsium or the God Beyond for coffee, questions and random musical trivia. From the perspectives of the mortal characters (including the Shardholders) I think it's better that they don't try to define it. Then, it'll be expressed in their words and we'll nitpick for years and find a thousand contradictions that could be explained with "damnation it, it's abstract! Shut up!" Souls are weird.
  14. I'd considered this one as well, but I don't like it as a theory. The level of sophistication and planning that went into the fortress would indicate that this was a planned expedition and not a "well, we're here now, let's do a thing" situation. I think it was implied that the building blocks of the fortress were imported from Sel, which would require two way transitions. The clincher is the support staff - the hooded, robed Elantrians could have been the guys that got dissolved in the pool, but then we've got the generic guards who came along for muscle. These guys are harder to place. If they are from Sel, I doubt that they would have gotten close enough to Elantrians touched by the Shoad to be recruited for an interplanetary jaunt. If they've been here for centuries (as they would have to have been if they left while the Shoad was still active - a 20 year period around Elantris' time) then how have they lived as long as the Elantrians? I don't think that they would be Cognitive Shadows like Kelsier as they interact with the trees and plants in Shadesmar. And they can't be derivatives of Threnody tech/shadows, due to the anti-Threnody device. So I think that these are real life humans kicking around the place. Another problem: reinforcements and replenishing troops. It's possible that chilling in Shadesmar as a Three-Realm being halts the aging process, but if it doesn't, these troops would need replacing every 40-60 years or sooner if they like their families. The new recruits could be piped in from Sel, or recruited from other settlements in the Shadesmar? I haven't read Elantris in a while, but I got the impression that the Elantrians who were alive at the time of the Reod weren't all that spectacular. I know that they could do flashy stuff like heal maladies (putting physicians out of work) or create food from nothing (putting farmers out of work) or... How did Raoden's kingdom survive the Reod!? They would be have been royally and economically screwed without their major source of everything! So, with all the flashy stuff, they couldn't figure out the Aon Dor enough to fix it which seems elementary in comparison (in hindsight). It just implies to me that they never turned their eyes toward the true complexities of the Dor, like a surgeon who can perform an operation flawlessly, but can't name any of the structures he's cutting through - they just know they're the right places to cut. If any of those structures were to move or be variable in a patient, they wouldn't know how to react. If I were skipping town/world with a geography based magic system that would need hacking to work elsewhere, I'm pretty sure that I would have been able to fix the Reod issue before Raoden was even born. Hence, I think the Elantrians alive immediately prior to the Reod would be the least suitable people to go Shard hunting, and certainly not as effective as we see Alonoe being. That's my feeling on the matter. I really want to know what happened during the Shoad!
  15. I'm definitely not suggesting that he's got the Feruchemical ability to store Identity, but running in parallel with that WoB his stats may vary through practice and his experiences. Just an under the hood, behind the scenes sorta feeling.