Mister_Fawx

My biggest thought concerning the Shard controversy is that we assume that the Shards are grouped at all. Yes, some have opposites, but there can't be a perfect opposite to all of the Shards that exist now, only ones that seem to be opposite when considered in a certain light. I'm sure you could make arguments to the effect that all of the Shards are opposite of all of the others in some way or another. The general idea I get is that all of the Shards are aspects of Adonalsium, which was once all of these different Intents or Facets united in one supposed being or tool. They're all things that we as living beings are capable of, and activities that we engage in. We have the capability for Devotion and Odium as part of our emotions; we can be forces of Ruin and Preservation based on our choices; we can have Honor; we can engage in Cultivation and Endowment upon one another within our families or societies. All of these are aspects of Life itself, and when Adonalsium was Shattered, each facet was separated from the others. The fact that Ruin and Preservation unite into Harmony is because of the joint force created by the union of the two. I'm sure that Ruin and Odium held by one person would result in a different joint term, as would the pairing of any two Shards. A union of three or more might have more terms, but that seems like it could start to get complicated. As is, the two Shards being held by one person was an incredibly unlikely eventuality to begin with, and is therefore more of a miracle than anything. I doubt that any other pair will be held by a single bearer in the future. In any case, the purpose of any and all of the Shards while separated will always result in flawed creations, where united they can create more whole beings and systems within the universe. Many of the Shardworlds existed prior to the Shattering, and I tend to doubt that the separate shards could create whole worlds and star systems without the balance that the full union of Adonalsium had. And if Hoid is out to unite the Shards, then his conversation with Dalinar in WoK about gibberish brings to light his potential fear that reuniting the Shards won't result in the proper balance that they held before the Shattering. Maybe uniting Adonalsium will create a Gibletish monster creation that doesn't match up to the original Adonalsium as it once was. I like the idea that Adonalsium was not the essence of the Creator's power, but just a tool he used to create. It would make more sense to be an abandoned tool that is being misused, rather than some deity having been overthrown and destroyed by his creations, who supposedly held no great power of their own before the Shattering.

Hmmm. That might be the reasoning behind the Everstorm that destroys the world in Dalinar's vision from the Almighty. Maybe he intends to take the entire world down at once so he can finish off Cultivation and free his roots from the world at the same time.

I'm actually reading the full collection of chapters of Liar now, so I might be fully educated on what information is presented there. The quote does not refer to his having stolen his name, but his being named for a rock, indicated by the fact that the beginning of the statement was in response to Kaladin's comment about the beauty of the rock in question. It is true, that we have no idea what the proper make-up of Adonalsium looks like or how it operates, so it's hard to say whether or not he is referring to a Shard or some other vague object we have yet to learn about. The important thing to consider is that Hoid is much better travelled than basically anyone else in the Cosmere that we know of, having been to all Shardworlds we have seen thus far. He presumably understands the workings of each magic system created by the Shards of those worlds, as well as knowing the names of all of the original Shardholders. He is confirmed to have the bead of Lerasium taken from the WoA, as well as using Shadesmar to worldhop, and he is a Lightweaver to begin with. The thought that he might have undertaken that kind of journey, as well as involving himself in the events occurring on each world, after having held a Shard and done things he isn't proud of with it doesn't sound like much of a stretch to me. It'd explain why he has such interest in the events on each world and in the effects of the Shards and so forth, as well as giving him an emotional investment in the defeat of Rayse/Odium.

I don't think he was the original holder of Adonalsium either. It was whole before he was Hoid, if what is said in the Liar of Partinel chapters is kept canon when the full story is written. It definitely could just be him screwing with us. And Dragonsteel is set to be written after Stormlight is completed, which means we have quite a long time to wait.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Cultivation is not Splintered or dead yet, so either Odium has decided to stay till he finishes the job, or Cultivation is keeping him there somehow. Makes me wonder how Taravangian fits into the whole deal, since he's having Szeth kill off individual rulers and people who might serve to unite their nations.

Because he's Hoid. He made a joke about dropping his pants to show Dalinar his 'spheres' earlier in the book. He literally makes his livelihood in the Alethi court by making light of things and joking around. Why not refer to a Shard as a rock when talking to someone who doesn't know anything about Shards yet?

Ah, yes, that would be the proper term for past Shardholder. I didn't look that up prior to this post. I appreciate the correction. It's clear that he is not currently a Shard, but that doesn't preclude the fact that he was there at the Shattering, and may have taken one then. Therefore, he may be one of the only people to intentionally give up a Shard because of what it was doing to him, or what it made him do. As you say, there's not really any information as to what could have happened at the Shattering, so we don't know.

Does that mean he has been confirmed as not currently being a Shard, or not having ever had a Shard at any point in the past? Because the quote above suggests that he doesn't currently hold a Shard, but that he might have at some point in the past and given it up.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The thread title should have read Hoid as a Sliver, not Shardholder. I have since been informed as to the definition of both, and found that Sliver is the appropriate term to refer to Hoid in this theory. I started a topic earlier theorizing about the supposed Survival Shard and the possibility of Hoid having held it at some point. It was brought to my attention that my belief that Hoid having held a Shard seemed like a relatively new idea, or that it hadn't been heard of yet. So I decided to start this thread in order to present that theory first, rather than trying to hold it as a base assumption for a different theory. We know that Hoid was present for the Shattering of Adonalsium, and that he was likely the author of The Letter in Way of Kings (thanks to a recent comment by Brandon stating that the Bead of Lerasium Hoid took is also The Element in The Letter, inevitably pointing to Hoid as the author). This means that Hoid likely has personal knowledge of the names of the Shardholders and the Shards themselves, evident by the fact that he comments on the Shardholders in The Letter by their names, not their Shards, and the effects of their Shards on the different worlds they visited. Now, this is a quote from Hoid's conversation late in Way of Kings. “ 'I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock.' 'A pretty one, I hope.' 'A beautiful one,' the man said. 'And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it.' Hoid is fairly well known to have more knowledge than other characters surrounding him, and for speaking in strange and cryptic sentences that make a lot more sense if you have insight as to what he is talking about. He also makes light of situations when talking about huge matters with people who are not directly involved, as his conversations with Dalinar seem to suggest, as well as his entire personality as a witty joker of some sort. Along with that, we know that Hoid is the Liar of Partinel, and that he stole his name from someone else. I believe that is what he is referring to when he says he stole himself. The next line is the one that interests me. He claims to have been named for a beautiful rock, which sounds silly and light coming out of Hoid's mouth. I believe it must be much deeper than that, due to Sanderson's propensity for hiding big secrets in relatively simple phrases or conversations, as well as Hoid's tendency to make light of all of the massive issues going on around him. If we think seriously about it, the only time someone in the Cosmere has been named for any kind of 'rock' that we know of is when they pick up a Shard. The Shard has a personality or an Intent of its own that it impresses upon the wielder, changing them over time. Ruin and Preservation caused Ati and Leras respectively to lose grasp on themselves and to become more like the Shards they held. Ati was not always a destroyer of some kind, but he was altered by Ruin's intent and therefore became the embodied force of entropy, as did Leras and basically all of the other Shardholders. Rayse has been said to emulate the Intent of his Shard, Odium, and therefore the two meshed well to embody the Shard's Intent. He is only referred to as Rayse by the author of The Letter (likely Hoid), and Odium by all others who know of him. My point is this: Hoid says that he was once named after a Rock. Shardholders are named after their Shards. Therefore, it seems that Hoid was admitting to having held a Shard out loud to Kaladin. Here's my justification as to why he once held it, but does no longer. Hoid is on some sort of worldhopping journey, supposedly to fix the Splintered Shards that Odium had broken. He appears on Scadrial and helps free Ruin from his prison, which eventually results in the restoration of both Shards' full power and Sazed becoming their bearer, uniting them into Harmony, a supposedly more powerful incarnation of both Shards. I believe Brandon is quoted as having said that this is what Odium feared would happen. He was also present on Nalthis and Sel, as well as Roshar most recently. Now, if Hoid has some quarrel with Rayse/Odium and is trying to oppose him, uniting the other Shards against him would be his best use of time. This begs the question: Why not take one of the Shards for himself and use its power against Rayse? If the above quote is an admission to being a Shardholder, it also suggests that Hoid was terrible at using it, as he says that it "became completely worthless for my wearing it." This might mean that Hoid did try to use a Shard against Rayse and that it didn't go well, and thus he is searching for other ways to accomplish his goals besides bearing a Shard. At this point, I believe that if Hoid had really wanted to take Preservation and Ruin for himself, he would have just showed up at the right moment at the end of HoA and grabbed them, as he hasn't showed any trouble in being in the right place at the right time before then to further his goals. All that said, this is mostly speculation and conjecture with little total evidence to back it up. But, I believe wholeheartedly that it has a lot of merit and realism behind the claim. Feel free to argue against me or present evidence of your own that might support this theory as well! I look forward to hearing what everyone else thinks.

Right. I am familiar with the fact that Hoid stole his identity from someone else. However, that doesn't explain why he says that he was once named for a rock, specifically: "A beautiful one,” the man said. “And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it." I can't think that he means anything besides a Shard. All of the characters we know of that held a Shard become known as the Shard, not as themselves. So if Hoid held a Shard, he would have been known as that Shard rather than as Hoid. I might just reformat this point into a Theory post all its own.

Thanks! I'm excited to be here. I wasn't certain that it was a new idea or not, but I figured I'd mention it here. “I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock. “A pretty one, I hope.” A beautiful one,” the man said. “And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it.” That's a direct quote from Hoid's conversation with Kaladin. We know that whoever holds a Shard is affected by its Intent, and that they become known by the Shard they hold, not by their original name (eg. Ruin and Preservation being called by their Shards rather than by Ati and Leras). Hoid has a habit of playing down major events as part of his mystery. And he says right there that he was named for a rock, which sounds like Hoid's way of saying that he held a Shard once, and that he did a terrible job with it, or is ashamed of how he used it.

I like the idea that Odium is driving people apart as well. But if his main goal is to Splinter the Shards others are holding, and he's already ruined Honor, then why would he still be sitting around on Roshar trying to drive people apart? What is his current goal there? My personal theory is that when Hoid is talking to Dalinar, and he mentions that he's seeking after an old friend but that he spends most of his time hiding from him, the 'old friend' in question is Rayse/Odium. Maybe Odium knows that Hoid is there and that he's out to unite Adonalsium, so both of them are using Roshar as a battleground for their conflict against one another.

SO! We know that Hoid is on Roshar, and he basically admits to Kaladin when they meet that he once held a Shard and presumably gave it up. We also know that Hoid definitely worldhops, and adapts to the culture and styles of every world he visits. We also know that Hoid is looking for someone on Roshar, but he spends most of his time hiding from him. Linking back to the Survival Shard that Sanderson alluded to, could it be possible that Hoid himself once held that Shard? Here's my complete thought, extrapolated from all of this information. Hoid got ahold of the Survival Shard, and because of its Intent, he spent a while running and hiding from Odium. After discovering that several Shards had been Splintered, he gave up the Survival Shard due to guilt, and now spends his time world hopping and trying to repair what damage he can, or at least learn as much about Odium and the other Shards as possible before confronting Rayse and trying to make up for his prior activities. Just some thoughts I figured I should voice, since this is the place for all that kind of thought.