IlstrawberrySeed

Fine. Just don't go to concrete buildings. For space: C-tin allows one to selectively get to Spook levels of perception without worrying about loud sounds. Even if you go deaf/blind/etc, you can tap for it back. If Windrunner doesn't enter building, then the fullborn can leave inconspicuously. No airstrike happens on fullborn. Then it turns into a game of cat and mouse. If we say a year for compounding, I get 2 years to master every 2 and learn 6 others. that's 1 year for every 4 powers you have. An aditional year for for the final mastery, and you get 6 years of training. that's about what you got for windrunner. I agree that max skill fullborn vs max skill windrunner is disingenuous, but this isn't. 6 years for training is all that's needed.

Really? Intresting. True. No, but the force cannot be stronger than the sight. I doubt that the wall blocks the force near as much as the sight. I'm trying to talk in 2d, but that's not working. I'll get something to you, if not here, then in my next post. G-forces shouldn't apply to either of them for slightly different reasons, but do to one. I really doubt it applies to the other, but it's basically a non-issue for both parties anyway, is it not? C-tin is much better than F-tin or A-tin. If the fullborn sits in a building, waiting for the windrunner, and the windrunner refuses to enter, the fullborn wins eventually. I don't think that is unreasonable at all if it were that simple. Dodging and RL have their own issues. Used together, probably enough in a white room, but it isn't in a white room. Not all powers. Only normal levels of mastery for steel, iron, and F-chromium; higher skill levels for F-zink, Electrum, F-tin, F-gold, and F-iron; and very basic understandings of bronze. I probably missed 2, but even then is only 9 they even need to understand. You don't need Kel levels of steel/iron, just enough to trigger RL or move and push/pull through walls. Healing might not take higher skill levels. Electrum and Zink are the 2 main ones needed to have fine control over, seconded by tin. Kel was average skill (or better) in 2(?) years, and had 8 that he needed to have at least regular mastery of, and got to higher levels with 2. If that is what's required, another 3 years gets your other higher skill levels, and lets toss in 2 others in case of distraction by unneeded powers. That's seven years. If compounding takes a year to learn, (I believe it only took so long for inquisitors due to discovering the method, not literal difficulty learning, so a month or 2,) then thats only 8 years. If we give them 5 years before they start, and another 8 due to distractions of regular life and for practicing the combos, then that puts it at 21. After that, it's compounding and extra training. Kal has had a few years to practice, and isn't much compared with our theoretical for windrunners without his special shenanigans.

That is partially because he hasn't decided on all of the atium alloys effects such that he cannot change them and partially because there are over 16 and less than infitnite atium - base alloys. I personally think that was brandon being sneeky and they have the same effects as varying pewter alloys, as there is limited axions there are limited alloys, but it could be over 16 different effects.

My bad. Rereading with that understanding that's what you were talking about, that was the amount for each metal assuming the sum of each metalmind of a metal are equal.

Their not necessarily pure since their alive, the bodies of a splinter rather than a shard. However, I don't think that would be an interactive difference. That does raise the question of why lerasium alloys are possible to be burnt.

I thought ccs were volume, my bad. I was looking up volume of a hand, guess I found density.

With prep and with slower healing (not elantris but still arelorn) they can set up the sheild aon, and then code for blasts to pass through.

I believe they look directly into the cognitive as described in the SA.

Feruchemical power diffrences apear in the attribute decay, you don't quite get 1to1. If someone filled 100lbs for 30 years, they could tap it for 99.7lbs for 30 years. Probably more. I did the calculation, if the spearhead has the same mass as a human hand, it would be 24ccs. However, when I was reminded of the "oversided" bit I started saying 24ccs couldn't be correct. Perhaps it is after all. We talked about this in another thread since you've posted this, so I don't think I need to re-correct you. Also, I copied the explanation you asked for at the top.

Brandon came up with that rational after he wrote it and found out it needs a rational. Also, reader expectations aren't an issue when it doesn't come up in the books. Really? So if you Lash yourself down and apply another 2 lashing to the right without overriding the first, there shouldn't be g forces? Why not connection? It's theorized that's what lerasium does. The one I am remembering (possibly incorrectly) doesn't mention Rashek. I found out today that he was retconned from lerasium to well instead of allways being a well mistborn. I doubt that there is something large enough to matter about D-burning and small enough to not be a metalmind, but yes, technically an issue. Thanks. Strongest one has strongest lines and most effective pulls. Fullborn can increase strength as previously mentioned (he retconed Rashek, but he didn't retcon the possibility, right?) will be strongest, and be able to use them through the walls. Heck, even if they need to C-tin with steelsight to see them, they're strong enough to pull something and do damage. My point is if RL kicks in to linearity after X meters to the mistborn, then iron can pull metals X metals past linearity of the RL Radiant. Not steelpushing, that's useless agaisnt RL. Ironpulling is useful. I meant fullborn - f-steel without using healing. Radiant can heal the G-forces, Fullborn shouldn't have G-forces. Read Spook's PoV Minute sounds and "tremmorsence" are achieved at high sensitivity. It can be achieved without the danger using C-tin. And they get BoM level steelsight from C-tin. Pinpointing them is not hard. I'm honestly surprised the argument went in the direction of "that doesn't work" instead of "radiant won't get in that situation." (comes back after finishing reading your post) Possibly. Possibly not, using C-steelsight. How come running is sufficient for windunner, but not for mistborn or fullborn in these fights?

1: necroburst if A-durilium medalians are impossible. 2: D/N- tapping should be more effecient than tapping all of it regularly.

I was not refering to pewter, I was refering to A-steel/iron and F-iron. I'm not sure if allomancy has the same protections built in as feruchemistry, but if you use F-iron for slowing and speeding, then no/low G-forces apply. G-forces come from force changes if I understand correctly, and F-iron speed changes don't change the force. Gravitation causes G-forces due to some combination things all related to a force being applied. No force is applied in F-iron. I thought there was a WoB saying that compounding (general) can allow one to increase their allomantic power. It could be durilium compounding, or a combanation of metals. The only way I can see this being unviable if it's some shard or shard alloy compounding. If you store .001 seconds of attribute in a, ex steel, flake, then if you D-burn, ex steel, then you won't burn the invested flakes, and then you can just tap the flakes. Of course. For a misting or mistborn? Sure. Some halfborn or multi-mistings/multi-ferrings? Sure. Fullborn? Doubt. Even if they cannot use feruchemistry to up their base allomantic strength, they can use connection to strengthen those lines (or was that a theory?). Either it doesn't apply to ricochet shots, and the ricochet shots can hit, or it applies to shots that will be RL into the radiant. Either radiant needs multiple RL, they need to move it consistently, or they need to be prepared for RLed projectiles. I personally wouldn't use it, to week to RL, but the point stands that it is possible. I personally wasn't considering anything less for dodging. G-forces shouldn't apply to mistborn nearly as much as radiant. Radiant can heal it. Therefore G-forces are a non-factor in this fight. Do you need that precise? Pull a couch, a desk, a cooler, a sink. And C-tin lets you pinpoint them. Almost better than nalatium. Better with the precognitive effects granted by the fullborn's kit, and bronze can be used for longer distance pinpointing in some circumstances. F-zink hand waves that. And even if spinning is all that's possible, not arcing, pulling and pushing 2 objects together, if you spin one you get it to shoot off in a direction. Similar to billiard's spin, or that one level in rise up. Arcing isn't required.

Like I said, fixed with more investiture. And I would think the metalic arts would protect against G forces more than lashingsdue to how MA's secondary effects work in general. (Doesn't F-iron to speed/slow generate no g-forces?) Windrunners can heal off them, so I personally didn't calculate them. That was vin, not a fullborn. Fullborn can increase their power to get more force, and possibly have other tricks up their sleeve, such as investing for controlled D-burns. (Invest X flaxes to D-burn total-X flakes, then uninvest at virtually no cost.) It sounds silly put that way, but good Idea about the sheild. Where do you get that? The lines get thinner, but only shardblades and aluminum block them completely. If Wax can see small lines through a wall, then the fullborn could pull things at the windrunner in the other room. Kal pulled arrows that were going to miss. RL are not computers, they cannot tell what they should pull or shouldn't other than general things, like "propeled by that guy" which would count for things that wouldn't hit. As far as I can tell, the only way to set up a sheild of RL that doesn't allow strays or ricochet shots to hit them, either by effecting them or not effecting them, uses 4 RL. That is assuming equal strength; you can probably get away with 3, or even 2, if one could fine tune the strengths. 1 Might be enough if it was set to orbit around you, but that is a whole level up on lashing algorithoms. Why? It only takes skill, and since it isn't mussel memory, can even be stored in copper.

It's on the allomancy poster. It's in world, so subject to be at fault, but I believe we have WoBs confirming this. And the speed at which it burns is in part due to the fact the metal is fueling the magic, rather than being a conduit for the SR to fuel it. I doubt all of these, for the reasons mentioned above in this and my above post.

I've spent multiple hours writing responses that get deleted when my computer dies or I press "show new posts." So instead of quoting 43, I'm going to reference a few without direct posting. First, @Tamriel Wolfsbaine, for your explanation. It is a lot worse then the one I pieced together carfully last week, but its this or nothing. Feurochemists convert some amount of attribute into some amount of investiture, at a greater than linear rate A(x). After converting it to investiture, they send it to the metalmin using B(x) investiture, also greater than linear. When they pull it out, they use B(x) again, and compress it with C(x), and finally convert it back to attribute with D(x). So at the end of the day, if you fill at rate x for the same amount of time you tap at a constant rate, then the attribute you get is D(y-C(y-B(y-B(y))), where y=A(X). A(D(x)) = x if you remove all referenced to a person's power, (if any) and one or more of A, B, and D have power in the formula. Allomancers pull a small amount of investiture to burn metals. The amount of investiture they can pull is i = 10 +- p, where p is power. Hemalurgists, multimistings, and mistborn have sperate and non-interacting pools. This investiture pulls more investiture through the spiritual realm, which does 2 things. First, an amount E(i) based on the inverse or negative of their power is used to convert the metal into investiture, and the rest, F(i), is used to complete the task set by the metal. Chromium and Aluminum convert metals to kinetic investiture and key kinetic investiture to do nothing (AKA return to the SR), while Durilium and necrosil increase i directly. When an allomancer burns an invested metal, E(i) increases (I believe only slightly for normal values). If the metal is interactively charged, then the charge is drawn out as the metal is being burnt, and rekeys the investiture. The amount of attribute you get from a metalmind is equivalent to D( f(i) + A(X) - C(A(X)-B(A(X)-B(A(X)))) - G(f(i))), where G(f(i)) is the amount of investiture pulled out to key it. Next, for urban Fullborn vs windrunner, steel/iron is not strictly worse than gravitation. Gravitation turns more in curves, but that can be mitigated with additional investiture. The big downside is the penetration, and to a lesser extent iron projectiles. To get through a wall, a fullborn only taps iron and steelpushes. To get through a wall, a windrunner either needs to: A send a projectile with enough time to get to speed; B Plunge through using healing; C stop and use shardblade; D stop and lash. A competent fullborn can make the hole just large enough for themself at the horizontal position, and can pop through at a moments notice by buzzing it. The windrunner would need to either slow down to maneuver into the hole or get through the wall on it's own, all of which take time. As for iron projectiles and Reverse lashings, Iron projectiles work perfectly well through walls if you know where the target is, which you do from Tin and Bronze. A reverse lashing cannont sheild prevent both Steel and iron projectiles, Best I can figure is they need 4 to create a forcefield in all directions, spread evenly about their sphere. Possible, but limiting. Finnaly, I need to look into Higgs fields (unless someone would care to explain), but I personally think density literally changes, but doesn't practically change to do shenanigans. Side note, is it possible for feruchemistry to have "negitive" side attributes? When storing, some of the investiture is used to make side attribute B instead of going to metal, and when tapping side attribute B is converted into investiture to use.

Good discussion.

Huh, that's intresting. It was a reply to another spoiler tag marked with TLM. I've seen that as common practice, not labeling them if they are a reply to another quoted just above. But TLM:

I specifically mean brain activity, subconscious stuff, like memories. One can recall them, but it the storing of them is unconscious. I believe that certain regulatory functions in the brain can be stored. A mix of push/pulling on different parts, and with the idea that one can start to turn to affect the momentum. Aditionally, there are already shoes going diagnol across them. Not really, you can see downwards of 100 shadows, and you would train yourself to seriously consider stopping to tell your past self the present, making them real possibilites that could be seen. You don't actually have to do it. Not quite that smart, but with the access to fortune, should be enough to do something like the diagram. I'm not saying it is unavoidable, I'm saying it isn't an issue. Think about it this way: Your calculator cannot find the zero of something. It is unavoidable, but it isn't an issue, you can just find the inverse and plug in 0. 2 definitly requires training and F-zink (which would also get drained). 3, it takes investiuture to burn the metal, that is what causes one to be a misting. The ability to pull the bit of investiture to burn the metal. Stronger mistings can pull more investiture through to burn the metal. Durilum and necrosil's purpose is providing the investiture used to burn the metal. Considering that even the stormlight leakedge of radiants is equal or greater than the investiture pewtar has, and the investiture durilium uses compared to regular burning, this is incredibly small amounts of investiture. As Brandon has said, mistborn are slightly more invested than regular people, but it isn't really noticable unless they are burning metals or burned lots of metals (like Kel before the well). I was thinking with an asociated iron spike, which would allow it to be burnt.

That clears some things up. Most of the time it's "no thats not how that works, here's why" and doesn't address the things we agree on. However, the WoB is about both by the same principles behind the transitive property of equality. Thing is, there is no WoB providing direct evidence one way or another. There are 2 phenominon, and several possible explanations. I'm arguing for one explanation, investiture gets used on filling, that explains 2 of the phenominan we see - the movement decay and the attribute decay. Both are small amounts not noticed in the books. Our argument is over what phenomenon cause this, right? I am not saying it isn't small, but that sentance is about the generational decay. Otherwise, good points.

Actually, if you put in 1 IU, and get 9IU out, then your allomancy is 9 IU. Small diffrence, but it is important for some calculations. And you can get enough investiture to ascend if you compound using another shard's investiture, but at that point it isn't a single type of invetiture, so you don't ascend.

Liquid, gassous, and plasmic investiture don't have shard metal effects. If we assume the mists and the well are perfect analogs, then gasous acts as jet fuel w/o a jet and liquid acts as rocket fuel w/ a rocket. More recent WoBs seem to overide those. Could be that the just answer "if you get over the connection issue," but he doesn't say that. Also, sharblades are heavily invested, so it will be difficult to get much of the power into the spike.

I completely missed that. Obviously the benifit of the beads is that one can re-alloy them, but I was still envisioning same size of bead. Probably would have changed my answer, as one can still split it and alloy to be more powerful at specific things instead of splitting it evenly. Oh, and because you get the investiture from the alloy, it would be more than just eating the bead.

Really? I thought progression took several spheres. Not if he is stuck between 4-5 reverse lashings. Bendalloy/cadmium is an issue for rebounding, but if you lash toward him with full lashings connecting it to a reverse lashing, It shouldn't matter, because once one hits, you get to hit him any number of times via the RL. And just dropping the shardblade through the bubble should be effective. That is what you meant, yeah, the infinite loop of temporal metal idea - that isn't really an issue, since you can use just the amount you need, but it is something to keep in mind.

I'm not saying it's not negligable, I'm saying it exists, in Era 1, & that it existed before then, and claiming X is the reason. And this isn't the only WoB I use, X reason also explains the loss from moving an attribute from one metalmind to another. I am not saying it is significant, but I hesitate to say it's negligable, since the generational/power decay that is negligable is since era 1, and feruchemists were having generational decay since before era 1. Why do you say that? I highly doubt that the first feruchemist was 100% efficient, but even if she was, there was generational decay from the first generation. What makes it an invalid argument? It isn't very large, it's perceived as normal or hasn't been perceived by characters, and the change in values hasn't been noticed by characters. Brandon has no reason to make the change be known to characters even if there was a way to track it with what they have now. The way people walked would have changed at the catacendre, but no one mentions it. Why? It's not naritively important, and people probably didn't even notice, as their new bodies were built for walking the way they were walking before, and their old bodies were made for walking the way they walked before. Do you understand what I am trying to say? What I hear you saying is this: Generational decay started in era 2. Feruchemistry was 100% efficient in era 1. Characters would have brought it up. Brandon would have brought it.

The disagreement is about the burn rate changing. I think the compounding per mole is constant (independent from if a compounder can change the rate of moles/second), while you think the compounding per mole changes based on the % fill. (At least that's how I read your statement.) I agree that agreeing to disagree in this area is fine. I really do think multitasking is something a fullborn, especially one trained in combat, would know, even if it requires copper. (Side note, I think copper can store other things related to the brain.) I'm glad you agree to the general Idea, but I was specifically proposing a more (time) effecient solution than the one you decided was fine. If linear, the windrunner has an infinite limit. And good to know, though I disagree that a skilled one couldn't turn, it should be a wide enought turn to allow the windrunner to turn without much trouble. And RL. My bad on the steel, definetly no way for them to escape. Electrum, F-zink, and F-chromium. Electrum allows comunication to the past, cromium allows more gut feelings (and possibly improved electrum) and zink lets them pull a taravangain, but with access to fortune. Why? That is how the compounders get there stores. I need you to have a more Azish explanation, because it seems contradictory at the moment. 1 isn't an issue in my mind because of our disagreement over 3 (below), but number 2 isn't an issue because you have many metalminds, as one ends you tap another. The way I understand it, Durilium and necrosil provides the investiture for conpression. I'm also not a funny person IRL, but I meant a leftover tinmind, not leftover atium. Though I since found out that the inquisitors only got F-gold under TLR. I doubt any inquisitor decided to fill a tinmind with atium shadows. (If it is even possible, some claim it would be in fortune Feruchemistry or hemalurgy.) Thanks. I have been in basically 4 threads, F-gold, a mistborn vs radiant (simultaneously discussing all orders) in a TLM board, this, and metalic art gimicks. Sorry for mixing up the enemy. I don't know that F-durilium used on oneself is the way to make a medalian. As above, so below.