in Truth,watcher of tv

I’ve thought about this myself, you can definitely see some patterns in the personalities of groups that share a Surge, although it can be hard to pin down. I think it’s also useful to look at the Fused since they are defined by the Surges as much as the Knight Radiants. I think these principles/themes might be the Cognitive and sometimes Spiritual aspects of the Surge, as opposed to their more physics-based Physical aspects. My ideas for the list: Adhesion: establishing trust/responsibility (this is fairly explicit with Honour and f-duralumin) Gravitation: authority and attention (Connection focused on a person) Division: impartiality and selflessness (both Dustbringers and Skybreakers externalise their morality) Abrasion: sympathy and influence (friction is basically how much two things will move with each other) Progression: maturing and augmenting (has less of a personality itself but modifies other Surges) Illumination: revelation/understanding (fairly self-explanatory) Transformation: individuality (both Orders have personalised oaths) Transportation: independence and the self (both Orders and the Brand insist on going their own way) Cohesion: conformity/consistency (both Orders look at group dynamics, the makay-im act as a single unit) Tension: integrity and power (mostly guessing at this one)

Here’s a thought, maybe the different Bondsmiths each have a different Platespren. They are generally thought of as ‘cousins’ to the Radiant spren and each of the Bondsmith spren are vastly different. Further, while glory suits the Stormfather/Honour, being bold, noble and socially oriented, it’s at odds with the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. The Cultivation side of things is generally more subtle, nurturing and nature-oriented; I’d put forward that the Platespren could be riverspren. Riverspren are described as one of the largest and most intelligent of the lesser spren, right next to windspren, which I’d guess could be due to an association with Adhesion. Water has been conspicuously absent from Surgebinding and its associations, despite being critical for life and omnipresent, especially on Roshar. Also, the Nightwatcher resides in “the Valley” which almost certainly means there’s a river nearby and her appearance was compared to one. On these discussions about colour and appearance, @Firesong, I don’t think we are meant to take the Steve Argyle art as canonical depictions. In the books, from what I remember, living Plate and Blade are always described as being silver-grey metal with the seams and engravings glowing with the standard colour associated with the Order. Some spren have a similar colour but others, like logicspren and creationspren, do not. As for appearance, the relationship between the Radiantspren and the Platespren is more of an abstract one. Their concepts are related (such as creativity and patterns) more than their physical description.

This isn’t really a theory, I just kind of wanted to highlight and enjoy this little feature. Some people have probably already noticed but some people won’t have. Basically, spren are cartoons and animation flourishes. Roshar as a setting is partially inspired by anime (if the ridiculously large magical swords weren’t a giveaway), and many of the spren are pretty much exactly how abstract and intangible concepts are expressed in cartoons and anime. For instance: Windspren are how wind is portrayed; as a long, pale, translucent line Concentrationspren are like the ripples sometimes used to show psychic powers Musicspren would take the shapes of musical notation if they were on Earth I’m fairly sure anxietyspren are the throbbing forehead veins used when a character is stressed Logicspren are literally brainstorms

I reckon Cabine correspond to Jezrien, since protecting and leading are about responsibility and childishness is about being irresponsible. Eshu I would say is definitely Pailiah, since it’s talking about information rather than thoughts or viewpoints I would guess Dilid matches Battar in being about pursuing something you know is pointless or I could see it relating to Taln. Those Vorins love a well-structured table, I’d guess the numbered Fools match up directly to the numbers of the Heralds. I can’t remember the context behind those quotes but; 4 would match Vedel and might be about forgetfulness or apathy, 6 would match Shalash and could be about deluding yourself, 7 matches Battar and -well- the opposite of wisdom is foolishness but this could be about futility and so be Dilid. Off the top of my head, a few more Fools might be: Nale: disrespectful of rules or authority Chanarach: cowardice or recklessness Kalak: indecisiveness Ishar: might be faithlessness or heresy

I figure the Unmade were the unique cultural spren of the dawnsingers, that embody some of the major concepts which are conspicuously unrepresented among the spren we know. Also, I suspect the singers essentially sold them out to Odium in exchange for the power to fight humans, which is the betrayal that prompted Leshwi to ask if the spren had forgiven them. So, when Odium unmade them he twisted their basic concept to his Intent and purposes, and since they were important spren to the singers this made them ‘his’ people. I think the fuzzy association the Unmade have with the Heralds/Knights is through the platespren and the forms they grant the singers, and so indirectly related to the Orders but not philosophically aligned. A few I’ve thought of: Nergaoul: spren of love (and/or lust), which was turned into bloodlust; lifespren-mateform B-A-M: spren of forms became the spren of forms of power; linked to the Truthwatcher platespren which I think are mandras - maybe meditationform Sja-anat: innovator of new or custom spren maybe, became the corruptor; creationspren-artform Ashertmarn: spren of festivities became about mindless excess; Willshaper platespren (musicspren)-resulting form (songform I would guess) Moelach: spren of funerals or maybe ancestors; could be associated with Stoneward platespren especially if dawnsingers buried their dead or flamespren if they cremated

This theory has been bouncing around in my head for a while, and it was reinforced by what we hear of the Iriali in Tress. Looking back through old topics, I found one that had a similar idea but it was before the new information in Tress. The Iriali religion says of their god that "the One knew everything but had experienced nothing and so became Many to experience everything" (the Many here being the Iriali). They were also set on the Long Trail through seven worlds where the One will recombine (I wonder if this is when they get to the Seventh Land or when the finish their stay there). In Tress we learnt that this Long Trail isn't simply a worldhopping pilgrimage but a magical event, which is either involuntary or can be activated by a minority, based on how its talked about happening overnight. I think the Iriali's One is a Shard, when the Vessel Ascended they would have the understanding of reality that a Shard has but have experienced almost nothing (relatively) of life and the Cosmere. The Iriali would have something like Splinters attached to their souls (comparable to the Returned) that record their lives and pass on to new Iriali after they die. I definitely don't think they themselves are Splinters because firstly that would probably make detecting them too easy, and secondly that would mean the recombination of the One would involve the entire people being absorbed into a single entity (horrifying stuff). Some people seem to think the Iriali religion is based on Adonalsium and the Shattering, but this WOB supports the idea that it is a based on a Shard, since it is related to the Shattering but later events are more important (ie. the actions of a Shard): Also, this WOB fits with the One being a Shard; if they were created by a Shard with a human Vessel, it would be somewhat human but not really: I think it's specifically the unnamed Shard thought to be related to 'wisdom', because the religion says they desire experience in contrast to knowledge, which is a large part of what wisdom is. I wonder if the Vessel Splintered their own consciousness as the religion suggests, or if they just Splintered the power of the Shard and are quietly waiting in the Seventh Land for their people and power to return to them. It would make sense for them to want to have experience as a Shard as well as as mortals. Anyway, please tell me what you think. Thanks

To me this seems a good one but for Endowment and Dominion, since it revolves around granting others power. Since Autonomy is about individualism and ‘survival of the fittest’, I think the combo with Dominion might be along the lines of Autocracy or something; it’s basically a compound of the two words already.

The way I see it, the Shards do have pairs but many of them are more like counterparts rather than opposites. So, my list is: Honour/Autonomy= rules and responsibility vs rule bending individualism Endowment/Mercy= granting vs relieving Cultivation/Whimsy= planned change vs arbitrary change Odium/Valour= punishment vs reward Devotion/Dominion= to be affected vs to affect Ambition/speculated wisdom Shard= considering vs acting (or something)

That's because I'm talking about a single magic system on Roshar. Stop trying to make this something it isn't. I've never, not once, tried to apply Surges to anything except the Knights Radiant and their spren. I acknowledged and agreed that the Surges are based on universal principles. You've repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, ignored key bits of my posts and occasionally been condescending, all of which has been upsetting. Again, I really am sorry for any rudeness. In the interest of completeness, I'll give a last response to the other points. I don't know what you're saying about misinterpreting, but I'm unaware of anything that says Hoid heals because of the Dawnshard. I think both our points are moot on this because healing mechanics are quite nebulous and we don't have much insight into who can do what why. I also should have done a better job breaking up my different statements, I think I caused some confusion. You haven't shown me anything I don't already know. In my theory, Spiritual Division explains why Shardblades (but not any spren in godmetal form) effortlessly separates matter; the matter vaporisation thing is how the Blades do this without having a width of absolute zero. It wouldn't be the first magic in the Cosmere to have additional minor effects to make it practical. Anyway, as a parting gift, here's a WOB about the Elantris weirdness that I've referred to previously: Haha yeah, sorry, I got a bit grouchy.

Or it's the Surge of Transformation which is based on a natural phenomenon. I'm not arguing that these forces are unique to Roshar. Do you read what I write? Again, you don't know how Hoid can heal, it could be due to an unknown kind of magic he's collected, or his mysterious pact with the 16 Shards, or his Dawnshard. I was referring to Renarin with the lifelong neurological condition, but according to you he doesn't see himself as how he's always been. Progression doesn't grow people, just plants and carapace. Anyway, I'm trying to argue that Radiant healing is a specially designed feature, or at least a consciously developed one. I know it's an explanation of the Blade cutting; it was needed because the width of the blade would have made cutting through stone (or cheese) impossible otherwise. Spiritual Division would be the breaking/downgrading of Connection. No it wasn't mentioned, that's why this is a theory. Some of the stuff you've said has never been mentioned. Again, I have told you I am talking about Rosharan Surge-based magic, stop straw-manning me. Nalthian Shardblades use a completely different magic system, but are based off the same or similar principles, you know, the ones you keep dragging up. Also, I wouldn't exactly say that Nightblood cuts. Riiiight, and you know where the line is drawn, how? You seem to have decided to not entertain my idea based on an arbitrary determination about where the Surges no longer apply, which is bafflingly at the spren which grant them and the Investiture of the Shard which created them. So, I will just say what you don't want to: we don't know if I'm right, we don't know if you're right, and that's fine. I'm sorry if I'm being curt with you, but you seem to have a habit of tediously arguing digressive points.

Sorry for the late replies, I've been stuck using my phone for the last month and quoting on those is a nightmare! Yes, I definitely agree (I also agree it's annoying we don't get a look at a clear 'Odium magic'). The Allomantic and Feruchemical powers are exactly the two sides of what Cultivation did to Taravangian to prepare him to take Odium: powerful emotions and a powerful intellect. He also notes after Ascending that the Shard has two sides, destructive rage and intelligent cunning, although tbf the cunning side might have been referring to himself as the Vessel. I've said before, I suspect the Feruchemical zinc side of Odium's magic might be in granting, not so much intelligence, but knowledge and understanding; like knowledge of the future or deep understanding of a Surge. Well, in his appearance as a Vessel he looked and talked as a normal guy, presumably how he was when he Ascended. Most Shards we've seen tailor their manifestation to the audience and circumstances with special effects and all, but every time Leras just looked like a normal guy in clothing unfamiliar to a Scadrian. Of course, the Shard bent him to its Intent, but I don't think it did any more than that, significantly changing his personality or anything. Also, he could hold the knife he just couldn't use it on someone. Anyway, I think I'll sneak in another metal-Shard connection here. Gold-Cultivation: introspection and the best healing in the Cosmere. We literally see Renarin use both sides of gold (even though he isn't the best example of a Truthwatcher, I see no reason why the gold-shadow power came from his special circumstances).

Of course, that's always the way between books. I mean, for 4 of the 6 Surges my explanation is wishy-washy to non-existent so I'm not making any claims to certainty. Regrowth and Growth are just different flavours of Progression. Check the coppermind. I said Progression because that's the power; Regrowth is the name for one of its applications. In the quotes you pulled up it says two of the Honourblades grant Regrowth (the second won't be the Dustbringer one). Renarin uses Progression normally, and Lift's Edgedancer powers work basically the same as other, as far as we know, so I don't know why you say their healing is different. Wyndle expected Lift to be able to do Growth so that's normal, and while we haven't seen a Truthwatcher use it they are so heavily associated with plants and light I will be shocked if they're not better than Edgedancers at it. What did Renarin do at Thaylen Field??

Yeah, their heads are the shape of chasmfiend heads and I'm fairly sure they were made to counter the fiends, so I figured they were Fused crossed with a chasmfiend soul. Either way, being faced with the reality of that situation would be traumatic. Well these things usually work on a level beyond literal sight so I just meant any manifestation might have popped up next to the core of the thunderclast, obscured by rock, but still very real to the spren. Also, I don't think we should assume limitations based only on what we've seen so far. Are they immortal, or just very long lived? Hoid's letter to Frost says: "Though, as you are now essentially immortal...". Which suggests that it's a later development for Frost, not a natural state.

Yes, and they can't do it without a Knight Radiant of a high enough Ideal. Spren don't turn into bits of armour naturally. Why couldn't it be a function of Transportation that emerges from the Bond. Stormlight can cure a neurological illness you're born with, but a Dawnshard can't heal a spine broken a couple of years ago? Hoid has multiple things going on, you can't say it's because of the Dawnshard he's involved with. Look, if we put aside direct Shardic intervention, which includes Heralds, Fused, Hoid (he has some sort of arrangement with the Shards) and certain people in the process of Ascending, there are only two examples of Investiture automatically healing, one of which is the Knights Radiant. As you say, Stormlight is influenced by the Shards of Roshar, one of whose major powers is Progression. But really, we don't see Stormlight auto-healing except in the structure of the Knight's Radiant, so it's hard to definitely say either way. Cosmere spoilers: You're thinking Physical Division, I'm talking Spiritual Division. It's literally dividing the Spiritual aspect. The 'turning some into Investiture' thing is clearly just a physics work around, not the main point of the power. I don't know why you keep bringing up the fact that these forces exist outside of the Surges. It's irrelevant. I'm talking about on Roshar, where these forces are codified in the magic as the Surges, where the spren are the source of that magic, where the spren are described as "living Surges" and are inherently linked to the Surges. The specific, Surge-based magic system I am solely talking about has strong themes of unity, interconnection and sharing of power. Why wouldn't these effects be Surges?! And Progression is the "key" for Stormlight healing.

Argh sorry, looks like today I'm a case study on the fallibility of memory. I got this into my head as a possibility and thought I had read it somewhere. If a relevant quote is out there, I haven't found it. I've edited the post to reflect my foolishness. Anyway the theory doesn't rest on that idea. Well yeah, those are the Surges they manipulate and that shape them, but the table doesn't mention things like Blade and Plate, which I'm talking about. Do you mean the nature of Investiture? because holding a lot of Investiture doesn't automatically heal you. We've only seen this once on another world. I'm saying this is why it's the nature of Stormlight to heal. But I'm saying the Bond can do this because of Spiritual Transportation, making god metals appear with a thought. The examples you give aren't manifesting physically, likely Transportation, yes, but on a completely different scale. Okay, I don't understand your point here. No, I would say this is. Chill As I see it, in a Spiritual sense Gravitation is about lower order Connections focused on a single point, which is basically a description of the Plate swarm. Yep, probably. Other than the sensory abilities of the Plate I couldn't think of anything particularly Illuminationy. Was just throwing out an idea for this one. Yeah nah, you've misunderstood me. I was just explaining the Knight Radiant's extra abilities and bonuses with their own magic system. Pretty reasonable I'd say. I am still interested in your thoughts on the theory through my framework.