Letryx13

Your will matters not! You can not hold me back if he speaks the words.

As has been pointed out by several others, there's no real chance Taravangian manipulated Lirin or Kaladin; the timeline just doesn't fit. The only possible way Taravangian could have influenced them would have been to set the stage for Rashone to be sent to HearthStone. But even the Diagram couldn't have predicted things accurately enough for that to work out. Too much of that was a matter of chance. Although I do think that Lirin's and Kaladin's connections to Kharbranth are not coincidental to the story. But I suspsect that relates more to the contest of champions. And as far as Shallan is concerned, I'm not sure what influence Taravangian could have had on her, or would have even wanted to. Her family has been connected to the Ghost Bloods for some time, and while it's now known that she bonded a spren when she was a young child, that information appears to have been completely contained. Her father went to extreme lengths to conceal that, if he even understood it at all. As I recall the flashbacks of WoR, the Ghost Bloods were trying to use Shallan's father to make a play for power in Jah Kaved. But considering that Taravangian was planning on creating chaos to seize control of the country by assassinating the king and crown prince, it doesn't seem likely that he would have had anything to do with it. It's possible he was aware of the Ghost Bloods' plot, but it's unlikely he participated in it. And considering that the Soul Caster broke as a complete accident, it's difficult to see the Diagram predicting Shallan setting out to find Jasnah.

Adolin is an EdgeDancer in personality if not in power. Sanderson has confirmed that Adolin is the kind of person that Maya would have wanted to bond, and I strongly suspect that's part of how he connected to Maya to partially restore her mind. Having said that, I do see a lot of overlap between some of the orders in terms of compatibility. Supposedly, the ancient StoneWards had a kind of rivalry with the WindRunners over who made the better soldiers. And it makes sense that people who could fit into one order might fit well into another one, depending on which type of spren found them first. So I don't think it unreasonable to say that Adolin would make a good StoneWard too.

Agreed. It would be almost impossible for him to have set that up, and it wouldn't have benefited him regardless. I do think the Rashone affair will come up again in book 5, but it will deal with Kaladin and Moash, and Moash's motivation for everything he has done.

That was my interpretation too. The Night of Sorrows seemed like when the Everstorm arrived, heralding the True Desolation.

True, you wouldn't want all of the splinters, since that would include spren. But it could (theoretically) work to attract any splinter that wasn't as defined enough to take the form of a spren. I know I'm spitballing here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. And I admit, I have no idea what summoning the Storm Father as a shard blade could actually do, but I'm not certain it would form the perpendicularity. Ishar was able to summon it with a completely separate part of Honor's power, so it's not tied to the Storm Father specifically. Frankly, I think the Storm Father as a blade could be something so powerful that it turns the tide of the battle of champions, or some other important plot point of book 5. So I think it's worth contemplating. Totally agree that removing the storm father would cause massive problems for Roshar. My current hope, if the Storm Blade theory turns out to be viable, is that the Night Watcher ends up helping by handling the storms while he's needed for the contest of champions or something like that. Kind of like Hercules holding up the sky for Atlas. The Night Watcher herself has only shown up in flashbacks and references so far, and I don't think that's a coincidence. As far as being summoned being dangerous for the Storm Father, I admit that is a problem with my theory, but Dalinar was talking with the Storm Father about growing and stretching in RoW. And the idea of spren being more than they were is something that was discussed by Kaladin and Syl. Taking that into account, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that it could happen. Implausible, as the WoB says, but not impossible. However, you also make the argument that a BondSmith could have the power to just connect the needed splinters to reform the shard, and I admit, that seems like a reasonable theory as well. It would even help explain why Odium has been so frightened of Dalinar up to this point. Although figuring out how to do that, even with Honor's ghost in the Storm Father, will not be easy.

Someone came up with the idea of trying to sort of attract all the splinters in one place, I forget who posted it. Using the Storm Father as a sort of focus point, attracting piece of the shard from all over Roshar. My take on it was that if there could be a large enough concentration of Honor's power in a small enough space, that could draw in other pieces. If the Storm Father could be summoned as a blade, preferably without unleashing catastrophe on Roshar, that could act as a focal point, reforming the shard.

I've had this idea too. I'd love for a listener, or any singer really, to be the one to take up the shard of honor. The only problem is that the only singers who have played large enough roles in the story so far, and are still alive, are Venli and Rlain. Both of them have undergone pretty impressive character growth already, having become radiants. So I'm not sure it quite fits for either or them to take up honor's shard. Of the two, I could see it being Rlain much more easily that Venli, since he seemed to resolve himself to keeping an eye on humans, but that also fits with his being a TruthWatcher. Not sure if I completely agree with that. Kaladin was mostly comparing the listeners to the soldiers in Sadeas' army. Probably wouldn't happen. At the very least, Lyft is likely next in line to be Cultivation. Or at least Sanderson wants us to think that. I think Odium will end up either being bound or in some other way restrained or altered after KoWT, so he likely won't play a big role after that. But I do agree that it would be interesting to have more Shards that weren't originally human. I doubt Leshwi, or any of the fused, would be capable of taking up the Shard. They're probably too aligned with Odium's power to do it, no matter how honorable they might be. It feels similar to Mistborn with someone aligned with Ruin being unable to take up the power at the well of ascension, which was the power of Preservation. Honor and Odium may not be opposites, but the person taking up the power would likely still need to be compatible with Honor's shard. And I wouldn't exactly call Raboniel honorable. Not after she threatened to traumatize a child in order to keep Kaladin from attacking her. Totally agree. We really need to see more of the Listeners, they're culture and their history, especially now that they are the future of the order of Will Shapers.

Hmmm, that does seem like a possibility. It was hinted at in Oathbringer from Notom to Kaladin about there being ways to break the bond before the 5th ideal. And it's subtle enough that it's something Taravangian might try. But even then, Dalinar hasn't really broken his word, at least, not in regard to the contest of champions. Dalinar could still choose someone else to be his champion. And he might not be Honor's representative any longer, but that only hurts Todium. It's only Honor, or someone representing him, that can free Odium. If Dalinar doesn't represent him any longer, then he shouldn't be able to free Odium.

Sorry, I didn't phrase that well. I agree completely that Odium has the power to destroy or splinter the StormFather. I meant I don't know how he'd manipulate Dalinar into killing the StormFather. He'd have to get Dalinar to choose to end being a Radiant, but even beyond not wanting to betray his oaths, Dalinar likely suspects that turning the StormFather into a dead eye would be disastrous for Roshar. I just can't see him doing it. Agreed.

That could be one way to do it, by manipulating Dalinar. Which would cause indirect damage. I was thinking direct destruction of the StormFather or splintering him. Although, how he could pull that one off is beyond me.

The contract says he has to send a champion. If Taravangian is sending someone to provoke a riot, then he's not sending a champion for a duel. He's provoking a riot. He could probably pull off getting one of his subordinates to kill Dalinar, but Odium is likely the only one powerful enough to kill the StormFather, not counting Cultivation. The amount of anti stormlight needed for that would likely be massive. And Odium can't kill anyone unless he's freed from Honor's restrictions. Maybe one of the Unmade could do it, but I doubt it. And this circles back to the idea of whether or not Taravangian can ease the restrictions on himself, but he's not supposed to harm Kharbranth, otherwise he's violating another agreement. So sacrificing Roshar is also probably out of the question. He made the contract with Dalinar because Dalinar represents honor. Odium specifically stated that when he said that Dalinar could ease the restrictions on him. What it is exactly that makes Dalinar the representative of Honor is a little more nuanced. Whether it's being the leader of the Radiants, a BondSmith, the StormFather's BondSmith specifically, we do not know. But it is likely some combination of three. So I agree that it is entirely possible someone else could choose a champion.

That's part of what makes me think this idea wouldn't work. If the "champion" is provoking people in Uritheru, then Odium isn't sending a champion, he's sending someone to cause havoc. It's not the same thing. It could be different if just by walking by the champion provoked someone, but I don't think it would work if Odium's "champion" went out of their way to pick a fight.

That's the biggest variable in this whole situation. How literally someone might interpret the words of an agreement. And I think that's Sanderson's best asset in writing something like this. There's endless nuance in looking at a person's point of view. I had that idea too, and it doesn't seem all that unlikely. But it also feels to obvious for Taravangian. He seemed to think his method was subtle. Baiting someone into throwing a punch, which is basically what this is, seems too simple.

If that's the case, then I'd argue that as long as Dalinar chooses another champion before dying, there's no broken agreement. I still think it would be interfering, but Todium would have to make certain that Dalinar couldn't choose a champion, in order for that to work.

The problem is that the agreement requires a champion to be allowed to meet at the top of Uritheru, without either side interfering. If Todium attempts to prevent that from happening, and killing Dalinar would do so, wouldn't that be interfering? I agree that Taravangian wants out of the agreement altogether, but I don't think killing Dalinar does it. I think he wants to try and manipulate Dalinar into choosing to break his end of the deal. And I agree that perhaps the best way (in Taravangian's mind) isn't with the choice of champion, but some other indirect way. Though how, I'm not sure. Agreed. The contest requires them to send a champion, but there's nothing that prevents them from choosing a different one if something happens to the first choice. And technically, both Dalinar and Odium have stated their intended champions, ironically both planning on choosing Dalinar, but that's obviously changed for Odium now. So if that would have invalidated Dalinar, it would have invalidated Odium as well. I'm not sure how Taravangian is planning to manipulate Dalinar, but if I had to guess, I'd say it relates to their conversation in RoW after Taravangian was taken prisoner. He'll try and use Dalinar's stubbornness to his advantage, and make him continue on a path that leads to him breaking the deal without realizing it. Not sure how, but that's what I think he's planning.

Honor's death was my guess ever since we found out the plains weren't a natural formation. Given how we now know that the Shard's power can relate to tones, and a couple of examples about how sounds can shape things (like Kabsal shows in WoK), l think it's the most likely explanation.

More Radiant Ideals!

I think it could work, but only if the assassin was very lucky, or had some way of knowing exactly how to move the reed.

Adolin's death is a possibility. Most likely the Kholin princedom would need the line to continue, and if Shallan is revealed to be pregnant in book 5, then killing off Adolin would allow things to progress without too much trouble. So it fits.

I actually had the opposite impression. Rayse seemed way more cautious to me. Most of what he did was through long term planning that limited his exposure, and only took risks when he was either desperate or certain of victory. He never wanted to deal with Taravangian until Dalinar refused him. And he was only willing to gamble on Dalinar when he was absolutely convinced he could break him, or when it started to look like all his plans were falling apart. Hoid even said that Rayse wouldn't agree to a contest unless he was frightened and only if it limited his losses. Taravangian, on the other hand, is so proud that he seems to think that he can handle anything. Trying to become king of all Roshar, then later the coalition of monarchs, were both huge gambles. Yes, he made the deal with Rayse to preserve Kharbranth in the first place partly because he believed any other option was ludicrous, but I still think that played to his ego as much as anything. He wanted to prove he was the only one who could save Roshar. On the other hand, telling Dalinar what he knew about NightBlood and how it could be used to kill Odium (instead of orchestrating an elaborate plan to do the job himself) would have been far more practical, but again, Taravangian's ego got in the way. Yes, he considered working with Dalinar to be a risk to Kharbranth, but he also admitted that those were lies, and that he just didn't want to give up the glory of defeating Odium to Dalinar.

Unfortunately, that sounds exactly like the sort of idea that Todium would come up with. Since there's no real explicit idea of what the contest has to be, it could very well be a hide and seek situation, where one champion runs away to try and and drag out the conflict. Since it's a contest to the death, it will only end when one of the champions dies. I don't think he is. I think the vessel's perception of the agreements is what actually matters, and Taravangian seems much more letter of the law than Rayse was. It's kind of hard to say. Odium explicitly stated the contest was to the death, so forfeiting might not actually do anything. Even if a champion did surrender, which I would think is unlikely, the other champion would probably just kill them anyway. Todium is definitely not interested in winning the contest. Even if he wins, he's still stuck on Roshar. I have no clue what Rayse would have been planning to try and eventually free himself from Roshar, but Taravangian is convinced he can manipulate the situation to free himself from Honor's restrictions. The only way he'd want to win is if it somehow could be used to release him, which makes no sense, as the terms explicitly state Odium remains bound to the system even if he wins.

Shallan isn't my favorite, but I like her as a character. Yes, she's made some big mistakes and done some terrible things, but she usually acknowledges them when she realizes what she's done, and has demonstrated more of a moral compass than some characters. And in complete fairness, she's not completely mentally stable. But I can understand why some dislike her. Venli is more annoying at the beginning of RoW because of how she's responded to her people's deaths. In the same chapter, she both mourns them and laments that Odium won't make her a queen for bringing the Everstorm. She gradually improves over the book, but when Rlain offers her a chance to prove she's sorry, she focuses on her own group's benefit instead of the right thing to do.

I agree, that is a possible way around it. Which is partly why I think it needs to be Kaladin as the champion, since he's someone Taravangian would expect to be the champion, and wouldn't look any further into it. Then, if Kaladin dies, it's too late, assuming he really was born in Kharbranth. Essentially, Odium needs to break the deal before he realizes he broke it. I don't know about that. The first book or two of the second half could be buildup, similar to the first half. Odium was barely mentioned before Oathbringer. I realize that likely still wouldn't extend the time for a new foe to appear, but that's not to say some remnants of Odium's forces could be causing problems. The unmade could still be a major problem, for example. But there are plenty of other things that could be significant enough conflicts for the plot. Disputes between human and singer nations, the Vorin church gaining political power, squabbles between the Radiant orders, and so on. Also, Mistborn Spoilers.

Hard to say. I don't disagree, because what you said previously about uncontrolled power definitely rings true. And small enough splinters would be much easier to handle. But I'm just thinking about what would happen if someone splintered a shard without knowing what they were doing. True, Threnody was a different situation, but without understanding how to splinter safely, who knows what might happen. He wouldn't know for certain. He kept Jah-Anat around even though he suspected her of treachery against him with Shallan in Oathbringer. But the unmade makes it very clear that if Odium knew for sure what she had done, then he would destroy her. Yes, she's a useful servant to him, so he wouldn't want to get rid of her unless he had to, but still. It seems like Rayse couldn't, or wouldn't, do something like that unless he knew for sure. As long as Dalinar kept his mouth shut about why he'd chosen someone from Kharbranth, Odium would have no way to know for sure that Taravangian betrayed him. I've wondered about that too. And I agree Taravangian needs to score some kind of big in book five, although that doesn't need to be the contest of champions, necessarily. My other idea, to have Dalinar win the contest and somehow force Odium to be unable to return what he's required to is both more straightforward and nearly impossible to pull off. But as for what other kind of big win for Taravangian it could be, I have no clue. It would fit both our ideas quite nicely if we had a Kharbranth champion, but there's still the issue of how a deal a Shard basically made with themselves works. That's the linchpin of the Kharbranth champion or Kharbranth destruction theory. If Taravangian can release his own restrictions, then neither works. I was not aware of that WoB. Hmmmm. I don't know much about Aesudan, but as interesting as it is that Kaladin could have a connection to the throne of Alethkar, I have a hard time seeing him in any sort of noble or royal position. He didn't even want to be a landowner. Some would argue that makes him better suited for it, myself included, but still. I'd like to see where that goes. My idea for the rebellion was more of a way to get Odium to lose control. Making him so angry that he forgets himself and tries to interfere in the city, which he's not allowed to do. Or just end up destroying it, like you suggested. But I don't think that Odium will be a factor in the second half of Stomrlight Archives.