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About Jash

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  1. And the goalposts have moved. Surprise surprise. If you honestly think the bridge crews are the same as peasant armies (which I can't believe I'm defending) than you have might want to read up on history more. Sadeas' use of the bridge crews (not allowing them to protect themselves), leaving them to die if they are injured, refusing them food when they are injured, are all examples of what set them apart from regularly conscripted troops. Listen, therunner, let's stop. I call them slaves. I define them as slaves. You don't. Both of us can be right by our own definitions. These arguments where people try to force other people to use the same language they use, ....are stupid. And in case you don't get it, only one of us is trying to force the other one to use the words they want them to use. I could care less what you call the Bridge Crews. Call them as you like, but stop asking me to use the language that makes you comfortable. They are slaves, as defined by the definition I provided. They aren't slaves, by the definition you use. Done. Stop. I will call them slaves. You won't. Amazingly, and thankfully, we often don't take societies own definitions of what they do. Many things we consider war crimes weren't, in fact, war crimes, if defined by those committing them. I already gave my definition. Read what I said above to therunner. You know Frustration, we already got warnings about this. Stop. Stop trying to force me to think the way you do. I don't care what you call them. You care what I call them. One of us creating an issue caught up by semantics where you try to tell other people how to use words, despite...nto being an authority on those words. I'm a history major. How about you Frustration. What are your qualifications for why you understand what slavery is better than me? If you have them, feel free to present them. Otherwise. Stop, and call the Bridge Crews what you want, and I will call them what I want.
  2. @[email protected] I hate to have to do this, but fine, since I have to prove that they are slaves apparantly. Uggh. Government-forced labor and conscription[edit] Main article: Conscription § By country Government-forced labor, also known as state-sponsored labor, is defined by the International Labour Organization as events "which persons are coerced to work through the use of violence or intimidation, or by more subtle means such as accumulated debt, retention of identity papers or threats of denunciation to immigration authorities."[25] When the threats come from the government the threats can be much different. Many governments that participate in forced labor shut down their connections with the surrounding countries to prevent citizens from leaving. They are slaves. It's slavery. They are forced without their consent into dangerous work. That's slavery. Period. Sadeas did not employ these people, he forced them into it. And by the way, there is a growing opinion that criminals forced to work (without wages or for wages well below minimum wage) should be considered slavery, and in many countries it already is considered slavery (so therefore that does not happen in their prisons). In fact, although finding the exact statistics is hard, I think...maybe every country in the EU doesn't allow prison labor (as again, they consider it slavery). Basically, most developed countries consider penal labor slavery, the United States does not (and some others, I think Japan as well). So again, forcing people into extremely dangerous positions with no chance of escape, is, in fact, slavery. Edit (I realized I should have sited the sources) : This is all from an encyclopedia page entitled "Modern Slavery"
  3. I want to give you an example of your bad faith argument, although ly this time, you made your arguments in better faith, even if I disagreed with practically everything you said, but here, this one : Here is what I said, now here is how you responded : A note (you edited this, so again, I think you made your arguments in better faith this time, I'm just trying to give you an example of what I'm talking about.) Like, your saying there couldn't have been a point in Kholinar where Skar, Drehy, and Moash intersected? Why not? If Brandon Sanderson wanted to write it that way, I think it would go pretty easily. Of course I'm not suggesting the Bridge 4 members literally look for Moash, I'm suggesting Brandon Sanderson gives them opportunity to interact with them, and then...reach out to him. Like all of these characters can fly. Running into Moash is entirely possible by random circumstance. They hide in the same stormshelter. They see Moash's fight with Lady Leshwi. There are ways to have them intersect. THEN I want the characters to reach out to him. Actually Skar, might be a good character to have reach out to Moash. I'm intrigued how that would go down. This is what I mean by bad faith, you seem to almost purposely misrepresent my argument. Again, you edited it, and your other responses were fairly good faith (this time) but in your previous post before this one, I felt like every single situation was like this, you took...random motivations for what I said rather than the ones I actually stated. Oh and Moash's family was murdered. He wasn't rich. He was working on the caravans, and not as the owner of said caravan. Like....did you forget that other things happened to Moash post murder? And he inherited nothing from them, because they were murdered for those things. He was poor.
  4. Okay to start off, I feel like you....badly misrepresent every argument I made. If you do that again, I won't reply after this message, and you'll know why. Like, just so horribly misunderstood what I said. Perhaps that is an accident, but honestly you just seem defensive from my standpoint, and looking like you want to respond to a strawman argument instead of my actual argument. This one is your best point. I agree, contracting him would have been hard. Again, this would have been on Brandon Sanderson to write opportunities for them to connect, which he didn't, and he obviously wanted Moash seperated from Bridge 4. It is quite realistic that if Moash returned he would be immediately imprisoned, in fact I think that is like 99% likely, so I'm not sure how you expect Moash to have reached out either. Everything you said here can basically be applied equally to Moash. Oh, and as far as saving Kaladin's life...he could have just...not protected Elhokar. I think Moash would have tried his best (at that point) to not kill Kaladin also, by the way..although that is probably not the case for Graves. I don't want to insert the definition of slavery here, but...let's be simple. Could the people of the Bridge crews leave the bridge crews? Answer : There was only way : If they died. Then, to-dah!! That's slavery, no matter what they called it. And I specifically said I wanted more diversity of the characters, because I think that is realistic. If you go to a modern day prison, you will find people like Rock or Teft who were in the wrong places at the wrong time, but you will also find actual hardened criminals. Are you telling me NO ONE in the bridge crew committed horrible crimes? That just seems incredibly unrealistic to me. I get why Sanderson avoided this, because it makes it easier, but I would have prefered for more complexity, as I said. And again, I want to make this clear : They were slaves. I really don't want to have another definition discussion on this forum. Go type "slave" in google. Then get out an encyclopedia. You know they were slaves. Stop. Just because they weren't slaves BEFORE joining the bridge crews doesn't matter, as the bridge crews themselves were slavery. Again, this would happen. The whole point, mythos of bridge 4, shall we say, is that your past sins should be forgiven, but...that's isn't how real life works. They will still be deeply troubled people. As I said, but let me repeat, in a real life bridge crew situation, you would have a lot more Moash's with just...so much baggage. Or smaller baggages like Teft or Skar. I wish they had, as a group, had to deal with these kinds of situations, not only with Moash but many other members of the crew as well. Real brotherhood, like any real relationship is not smooth, and easy. There will be hiccups. There will be hardship. People will have troubles. You can't just give up when someone is harder to get along with, not and continue to act like your group is above it all, able to reach everyone. I want to be clear on this too, I think how the situation was written it would have been hard for them to reach out to Moash. i want it to be writen different, that's what I'm saying. I want Rock or Teft or Lopen or somebody to have a chance to talk to Moash. And it doesn't just have to be Moash, there could have been more exploration of people who did truly awful things in the past, people who didn't so easily trust the bridge crew, people who like Teft repeated past bad actions. I'm glad for what we got, but I wish we'd gotten even more. This was your response that was the least...understanding, or favorable to what I had said. ...I know. Like, I read the books, I know there isn't. I think the storyline where Kaladin started dealing with mental health, support meetings, talking to each other, could have been moved up and started as early as book 1. I absolutely loved that part of RoW, and I think it as it existed could exist in book 4..but, they could have explored that even earlier. There nightly stew could have been a place where people really opened up. Heck, we discussed religion on my other thread. Like, I have experienced deep personal connection at campfires during religious camps. People were able to talk and get some forms of help. It was far from perfect (seeing a therapist would be better), but it was a form of getting help. I would have liked to see something like this as early as book 1. Also, on a personal level, you could have had individuals talking through things, you could have had Kaladin dealing with fall out of bridge members screwing up, or struggling with how to move on, maybe even a bridge member who commits suicide, all of this is entirely realistic, and something I would have liked to see. I say that Bridge 4 failed Moash, because...they didn't know him, they didn't know what he was going through, they didn't real out to him. When I was in high school, I was depressed, and I was eventually saved by my best friend, an amazing woman, who although I'm not as close to anymore, I will always credit with ...bascially stopping me from committing suicide. I didn't go to her. I didn't open up to her. She forced me to. She forced me to hang out with her. She forced me out of my house and my bubble. She gave me opportunities to reveal myself. Listen, I want Bridge 4 to be like that. I want them to be people who SAVE people even when that is hard, because I've experienced that. It happens. And I know countless people with similar stories to me. Everyone has that one person who reached out to them. Everyone has that opportunity. Who reached out to Moash? Graves. A guy who made things worse. Then Odium, an evil god. What if he'd had someone reaching out to him who could have pulled him another direction. And by the way, this doesn't have to be Kaladin, that dude has enough on his plate already, but waht if it had been. What if instead of suddenly backing out and betraying Moash at the last second (you could just as easily see it as Kaladin's betrayal and not Moash's); he had actually freaking talked to Moash. What if they had ended up letting it all out? It could have changed Moash's path, hell it could have changed Kaladin's path. What if what Kaladin needed wasn't someone like Shallan (as Syl thought) but instead someone like Moash. A brother to talk to about anything. Someone who could hug him as he cried. What if Kaladin and Moash needed each other?
  5. @Chinkoln Hmm I am thinking of how to respond to you carefully and respectfully. I guess at best, I just have to say : I would never be friends with someone not willing to come to pride, or who thought that my gender expression or sexuality “didn’t really exist”. Like first of all, I have a community that exists and loves me as I am, so why settle for one that does not. And second of all, if I wanted to be Christian still, I have a church that would accept me as I am and love. My own father constantly tries to get me to return to church by attempting to introduce me to LGBT members of the church or mentioning all the outreach the church does in the queer community. I appreciate your sentiment, but do not need it. I still have many christian friends, but they are people who are members of my ex church, and a few others (mostly catholic) who don’t judge others and very warm, accepting, and loving to all people (and respect and …believe in (such a low bar) their gender expression and sexuality). I am a happy person Chinkoln, and much happier since leaving Christianity.
  6. They all refer to Moash as a traitor BEFORE he kills Elhokar or joins the Singer army. Like, yes that hate becomes more pronounced after he kills Elhokar in battle (not a crime, it’s war, if they are held to that standards, every single member of Bridge 4 is a murderer). You are correct that a support group cannot help you if you don’t reach out, however, also no one reached out to him. Like, literally no one attempted to understand him or even contact him. I love Bridge 4, but they failed Mosh. Someone should have tried to reach him. For a group basically based on trying to include everyone, they turned their back on Moash pretty quickly and easily. It also strikes me as just…unrealistic. This is a group of former slaves, who probably in some cases did horrible things that landed them as slaves. I garuntee they, as a group, would be more willing to look past things then other groups. Like I think Brandon Sanderson kind of failed on this aspect of Bridge 4’s development, yes he had flawed characters like Teft…but I feel like..there would be more hardship, more behavior that was difficult. Half the members would have major trauma and trust issues. They transformed too completely and easily if you ask me, there would be a whole lot more Moash’s in reality. Now granted, I think they could have worked through these things, but I think the book would have been better if Bridge 4 was forced to have support meetings, mental health care, etc. (things that do exist, but I think should have been more involved in Bridge 4’s creation and existence)
  7. I cannot speak for @Honorless, but...I can speak for myself. Yes, it can. Honorless, I'm assuming, like myself is not saying that they are the ones who ruined the relationship (probably). The religious person was. I grew up in a deeply religious place. There are so so so many reason religious people stop talking to ...well everyone, anyone they see as not living up to their standards of being "religious" enough. (let's be honest, the word I'm actually wanting to say is "Christian" enough, but I assume it is similar in other monotheistic religious communities). Saying you think it can't ruin relationships is again..thinking of only your own experience. Actually, if we can be quite candid here, I thought just like you when I was around 17. I defended religion all. the. time. My church was a safe haven for me, one that spread love. I still in fact, respect my dad's church..and amazingly they would still accept me with open arms even if I screamed I was an agnostic in the middle of the service. But...my dad's church is a strange outlier, and not the rule I thought it was. Many of my high school, and later university friends, belonged to other churches, particularly one protestant sect (I am not going to say what church it is to avoid offending people); and those "friends" (many are no longer in my life) were judgemental..to everyone, about everything. They also seemed to think they were better than everyone else for going to this one random church. The first time I got called "not really Christian" because...my church...didn't hate gay people, was a shocker me (I was really in a bubble). And if I went outside of my "friends" to other members of their church (I was invited by them, and foolishly went with them thinking I'd have fun like I did at my church youth events, oh...boy, was I not ready for those events), were just hateful awful people. Some of the worst people I've ever met or seen, all claiming they wanted to spread Jesus's love while they told us all how we were all going to hell. And as I branched out post University, and tried new churches (I live in Seoul, so I looked at several churches here) I realized...over and over again, that my dad's church was some extremely rare exception. Hate, hate, and judgement, that is what I found at every church. I had one extremely religious friend when I first moved to Korea. Our friendship finally ended when we had a huge blowout fight over whether gay people could go to heaven or not. I think after that, I was just done. I made the move to agnosticism/deism, as I'd never really believed in the miracle/supernatural part of religion anyways, and I distanced myself from Christianity...because they did not represent what I believed and they did represent what I wanted to spread in the world. However, they were the ones who pushed me away. Not me. My relationships were not ruined by my actions. I tried hard, especially when I was younger to understand these people. To convince them to "turn to Jesus" and spread love, not hate, bigotry, and judgement...but I failed. Repeatedly. So yes, religion can destroy relationships. Simply say to people like the above, "I think Jesus would love queer people more than he would love people who hate queer people" and watch them lose their minds.
  8. ...Moash clearly didn't want that. He wants to live without pain, and hardship. This is a common ....mindset of people who repeatedly abuse drugs. The core problem isn't the addictive quality of the drugs, but rather that the drug abusers lives...are...bleak, and it is hard to get over addiction, when all you want is to just stop feeling pain/hurt/awful all the time. Dalinar has two sons who love him, a wife who loves him, a spren to talk talk to, friends a plenty. He quite clearly, in the past, (you know when he was much older than Moash still) did not resist those urges. Moash, in fact, acts like an addict (much like Dalinar does). In Dalinar's case, he craved the Thrill, in Moash's case, he craves the exact opposite...the lack of the need to feel anything (because when he did feel things, everything was so awful, he felt suicidal, probably all the time). Also, saying that because one person could get past something, everyone could...is just...so unhealthy. I got past depression when I was younger. I don't tell depressed people they have to get over it because I did. I got over addiction (quite recently), I don't tell other addicts they have to get over it because I did. That just...isn't how it works. Some people can't overcome. Some people can't get past it, and, this is important : That doesn't make them bad people. We should pity them at worse, and empathize with them at best, not judge them, because we don't know how hard it was for them. We aren't them.
  9. A pretty big assumption, and an incorrect comparison. It’s more like, as I already gave an example, when you act like an asshole while being drunk, and you feel bad but don’t actually address the situation or blame alcohol for your behavior. And I find, not just on myself, but many people, when given normal emotional growth (so no god took your emotions) people eventually realize what they did wrong (not everyone but a lot of people mature emotionally with time). Now secondly, the stealing candy part. I think a better example would be stealint a friend’s toy. I am a kindergarten teacher, this happens. And they feel guilt. First off because, like you said, they know it is wrong, however if I do something exceedingly simple like ask them how they would feel if their friends stole their toy, their guilt will overtake them. They feel genuinely horrible and apologize pretty heartfeltedly. Now granted, not always, but 97% of children will do this. Now if a god took their emotions? Probably not. They won’t have a chance to make the step from “I am embarrassed and ashamed” to “Because what I did hurt my friend”. Your example is something that effects no one, let’s be honest, eating candy is just vaguely against the rules and hurts no one except themselves. It’s a terrible example, and also makes extremely unfavarable assumptions about Moash.
  10. You think the main character is going to die halfway through the series? That seems extremely unlikely to me, but this my first Brandon Sanderson series I guess.
  11. I specifically hit this one because again, I’ll say if again. No. Taragavian is wrong. He is monster who excuses his awful disgusting actions away because he arrogantly thinks he knows everything. Even when things go wrong on his plan, instead of realizing, “Hey I might be wrong and causing more death” he doubles down on being an awful traitor. Taragavian’s words would be “Arrogance before compassion” or “Absolute Monarchal Tyranny over any attempt to listen to anyone else”. Taragavian is also kicking the proverbial dog, refuses to change how he sees thing, and does not and has not grown as a person any more than Moash has. And he doesn’t have the reasons for lack of growth that Moash has. Now for the rest of my response. Just read what Honorless said below, sorry for using you Honorless, but everything you said is what I think, but worded better than I would have lol.
  12. But Skar is still alive, that rat bastard! (just kidding, lol) But really, I agree with you, people like disliking a character for some reason lol. I think I don’t dislike…anyone. Okay that isn’t true, Taragavian. But that’s it, I basically like to at least to some extent every other character. Heck even people’s excuses for Taragavian are part of the reason for my distaste. I might be more okay with him if it wasn’t for how the fans treat him. Same in ASOIAF too, I used to like Tyrion before I saw his fanboys (cause they are boys, trust me).
  13. Some people are not fighters. He isn’t a freeloader. He did things according to his own moral compass, something we have no right to choose for others.
  14. You keep outdoing yourself, this is my favorite reply on this entire topic, even though we somehow ended up having a morality philosophical discussion about…why people hate Moash? lol Anyways everyone else - I agree with what Honorless said above
  15. Haha, they were indeed, they were indeed. Plus when Raboniel said something to Navani like, “If you aren’t a scholar, than no one is.” I don’t want to be recognized a scholar, but I can say if someone recognized me in the way I want to be recognized this spectacularly, it would be difficult to not fall hard lolol.