RenegadeShroom

Shallan didn't murder her mother, she killed her in self defense. Shallan didn't plan anything, her mother was trying to murder her young daughter. It's not like she was just going about her business and Shallan, having meticulously planned a malevolent plot to kill this innocent woman, attacked her out of nowhere. Calling it murder is wrong by definition, and frames Shallan in a very different light than how the actual events that played out do. Also, I would think that of a teenager who has severe issues with repression, desperately trying to save her family and herself from being hurt and even killed by their father, having a cold manner about her as she does it is pretty understandable. I'd hardly call it sociopathic. Reacting in the way she did emotionally just seems like a natural outgrowth of all of that. In particular having to confront the fact that she feels it necessary to kill her own father.

I seriously do not understand how Adolin daring to try and be supportive of Shallan is somehow worse for Shallan than Kaladin, who literally hasn't yet grasped that Shallan has a problem with repressing memories and emotions and letting them fester for literal years, and thinks that she's beautiful anyway and in Adolin's position would be enabling her super unhealthy coping mechanisms? Kaladin's entire view of the situation is "yes, yes this is good and ideal, wow, that's admirable, I admire her strength for being able to do this" and that is fundamentally worse. At least Adolin recognises that something is the matter there. I also don't get this assertion that because Adolin chooses to be supportive and encouraging, that he's obviously going to be solely responsible for her healing. The narrative's not portraying him as a solution or a therapist, not at all. The end result in the book isn't a matter of Shallan being healed, it's a matter of all three characters making independent decisions about their lives and one another. Both Shallan and Kaladin came to the realisation that they'd be better off without each other in a romantic sense, independently of one another, and Shallan chose to commit herself to Adolin, because she genuinely likes him and sincerely believes that the two of them are good together. And Adolin was perfectly willing to step aside if it came to that -- as misguided as that may be -- entirely for Shallan's happiness, and was understanding and sympathetic of both her and Kaladin in the situation. The foundation for Shalladin is a lot weaker, and at this point would require that all three characters ignore everything they went through and learned about themselves and one another in this book. All based on, from what I can tell, Shallan and Kaladin having funny banter a few times? And that they're attracted to each other. Despite the fact that Shallan and Adolin are also attracted to each other, and that Shallan and Kaladin both made conscious decisions about themselves and each other. On a more personal note, I would simply not trust Shallan in a romantic relationship with Kaladin. I'm certain it would be unhealthy for both of them in that scenario. Shadolin is far more palatable to me, namely in that their first meeting didn't start out with Shallan being an abusive racist jerk for laughs and so that she could impress someone and feel good about herself. Kaladin and Shallan have the potential to make great friends, and that's an interpretation I enjoy! Honestly my ideal scenario with the three would be both Shallan and Kaladin being with Adolin romantically, but not each other, but, sadly, that's not going to come to fruition. Nor is my actual ideal scenario outside of the "triangle" (seriously, it still bothers me that these situations are called 'love triangles' when they're not even triangles, they're just... angles. A triangle would be A <3 B <3 C <3 A, not A <3 B vs A <3 C!) going to come to fruition, Shallan finding another woman she's interested in, but that's another topic entirely.

Not at all. Jasnah knows women closer to her own age who she's not in a mentor role with, even assuming she does get any love interests at all. Of the established characters in canon, there's always Liss, I suppose, but nobody jumps out at me so far. So far being the key point, the narrative hasn't devoted a lot of time to exploring Jasnah's personal life up close yet, so until we see more of her, there's going to be very few candidates whom she actually knows. At any rate, my preferred outcome is aroace Jasnah. First off, I didn't claim that she wouldn't have a romance arc, or that it would ruin her as a character. I said that I find it extremely doubtful that she'll have a romance arc with a man. I'd be perfectly happy for her to have a romance with a woman, but the idea of Jasnah being involved with a man is... bizarre and strangely upsetting to even consider. In particular, because this "defrosting the ice queen" trope that I most often see being applied to Jasnah by Jasnadin shippers, really grosses me out. That's a bad trope, and I'd hate for Jasnah to have to undergo it. Jasnah doesn't need a romantic storyline. And I'm in complete disagreement that a romantic arc, any romantic arc will necessarily make her better, at all. And romance isn't a requirement for relatability and emotion? Jasnah's not emotionless, like people seem to perceive her as, and you seem to be ignoring that one of the most powerful emotional moments in the series involving Jasnah was, as you pointed out, when she decided not to kill Renarin; which has absolutely nothing to do with romance. A character can be fleshed out entirely without romance, because romance is not a necessity for any given individual human being to be an interesting and fully fleshed out person. Strong emotions exist independent of romance! She can be a powerful character, who people connect to and like, through any number of interpersonal relationships and on her own. All of that is especially relevant to female characters, especially ones like Jasnah, who has so far expressed absolutely zero interest in any romantic or sexual pursuits. There are people like this in real life, and it's not dull or uninteresting, it just is. Forcing a romance on Jasnah just for the sake of having her be in a romance would undermine a lot about her, in particular how absolutely refreshing it is to have a female character who has no interest in romance and who doesn't pursue it and isn't punished by the narrative for doing so. That goes double if she's aroace, and still applies if she's lesbian, for a number of reasons. I'd also point out that what happened with other Cosmere characters when it comes to romance is not at all relevant to what will happen with Jasnah? She's not any of those characters, and Sazed is a very different person, in very different circumstances from Jasnah, and his feelings on romance aren't an indication of Jasnah's feelings on romance, because they're two different characters.

Jasnah and Kaladin as a couple is, no. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Jasnah's attracted to men either romantically or sexually, I'll eat a hat.

Don't worry, folks, I've got us covered! Rejoice! I'm so glad to able to help save the Coppermind from these kinds of dastardly inaccuracies! No, no need to thank me Joe, I'm only happy to perform this service for the wiki.

@DarkJester If you're asking where people got the impression that Shallan was bisexual in the first place, ie before Brandon's tweet, it's more that the way she reacted to a select few (.... Jasnah) characters and the kind of lingering admiration and lengthy descriptions of physical beauty struck a chord with other readers who are either bi or gay women themselves, leading them to believe that she is bi. And as it turns out, yes, she is!

Also, the Listeners fit in more with the other native organisms of Roshar than humans do. Just look at chasmfiends, axehounds, chulls, etc. Brandon's inspiration for Rosharan ecology, if I recall correctly, came from looking at tidepools. If any out of those two are to be considered alien, I think it's humans.

See, you joke, but I absolutely wouldn't put it past Shallan to actually want to make out with Veil if she could, haha.

I imagine that since Brandon's confirmed that Drehy is getting a love interest in book three, we'll Alethi/Vorin attitudes about it on display then? No actual WoB yet about how their society treats it though.

Uh, in any case. Mutual Shasnah would be... I... wouldn't exactly be as fond of Jasnah anymore if she entered into a romantic relationship with a woman literally half her age who was also her student. >__> Shasnah is best as a one sided hero worship crush, IMO. No incredibly sketchy power dynamic that way, heh. (Sorry Shallan :b)

@Djarskublar That's pretty much what I said, no? The metal itself has a property independent of it's Hemalurgic attributes which makes the user hidden to Harmony.

I don't see why a Shard couldn't simply intentionally manifest their power in the form of a metal. They're incredibly powerful entities, so it seems to me that something like that would be trivial. In any case, there is another instance of a Shard's power being manifest as metal outside of Scadrial: in Rosharan Shardblades. I'd also like to note that Trellium hiding the user from Harmony's sight isn't the metal's Hemalurgic effect, but an inherent trait of the metal.

As I recall, the Teoish don't have their own form of investiture because they're of Aonic descent. They get taken by the Shaod and become Elantrians instead of having their own thing. That's why Wyrn had Dilaf attack Teod, to commit genocide against the Aonic people so that there would be no more Elantrians.

I'd like to point out that Hemalurgy was definitely known on classical Scadrial. People viewed Hemalurgic piercings as a means of communication with a god.

Since no one else mentioned it here, thought I'd also point out the face in a rock formation on page 65, after Kenton joins Khriss' party. It's on the upper right of the page, noticed it on my first readthrough about two months back:

(Disclaimer: I'm neither gay nor a woman, so take this with a grain of salt.) Such men also like to accuse feminists and women who reject them sexually/romantically of being fat, hairy and unattractive. I don't see a reason why their solipsism should interfere with good representation in fiction. Just as fat women, hairy women and conventionally unattractive women exist, so do lesbian women, and they should have representation in fiction just like everyone else. And for all that it might be a stereotype, I know for a fact that there are plenty of scholarly, strong willed, feminist WLW (women loving women) who would be absolutely delighted if Jasnah is also a WLW! There's a serious dearth of queer women in fiction, and IMO if Jasnah were a WLW that would do far more good than the minor harm it would cause. Especially since high fantasy as a genre is already severely lacking in diversity with it's characters, and this would put a queer woman as a major viewpoint character, who is slated to be one of the main characters later in the series. Also, I'm curious what Ranette has to do with whether or not Jasnah is queer? I assume you were referring to Ranette in the third paragraph. For one, the two characters are wildly different, the only things they'd really have in common is that... they're WLW? They're strong willed? Being strong willed is hardly a unique attribute, pretty much every female character of any relevance to the plot in any of Brandon's books is strong willed. Having a grand total of two WLW characters across thirteen books is not what I'd call repetitive or boring; else I'd have to look at every heterosexual character across all the Cosmere and proclaim Brandon boring for it because many of them share some personality traits with one another. It's a double standard. Additionally, I wouldn't say that a character's sexuality is contrived if it's not hinted at early on. No more than any other character detail that we just don't get the opportunity to see until later.

Yeah, I know Marsh wasn't a Mistborn; unclear wording on my part: Like Marsh, many Inquisitors were not Mistborn to begin with.

Classical Scadrial didn't have trains, but they were close to having them. They had steam technology, and Rashek had sufficient knowledge of gunpowder to repress that technology so that he could maintain better control over the Final Empire, as mentioned in the Hero of Ages epigraphs, I believe.

I think that something to keep in mind is that not all Inquisitors started out as Mistborn, like Marsh. They needed iron/steel Allomancy to do their jobs, plus the various other metals. It just so happens that the Hemalurgic bindpoints for iron and steel Allomancy are, presumably, the eyes, and they effectively replace normal sight, so they can afford to lose them. As far as we know, there's no other bindpoints for those two metals, so they had to put them in the eyes to even give many Inquisitors the abilities.

I can't seem to search for terms that are three characters or less. I noticed because I was looking for some posts about Ati. I found what I was looking for easily enough by searching for 'Leras', since they're often mentioned together, but I imagine it could be a hassle if someone's looking for info about Aons and other small words? Four characters works just fine, but three and lower produces no results. Screencap:

IMO you have completely ignored the best evidence to this, the one piece of evidence that ties it all together and confirms it without a doubt. Now, to be fair, it's kind of easy to miss, but it's there if you're looking for it!! Here:

That doesn't make the act of coercion itself honourable, though. In any case, there's a big difference between manipulating someone to do something through their sense of honour -- like talking them into it -- and taking away someone's free will and agency and forcing them into a role they never agreed to take up. The way VirtuousTraveller described it is more like the latter, where Cultivation is treated as little more than a leash, an object with which to bind Odium, which is a horrible thing to do to a person.

That may be true, but in this case, that wouldn't be Honour being dishonourable towards himself, it's him acting with dishonour towards another person. One he loves/loved, no less. I don't see why Honour would only be about making others honourable while not acting with honour himself. To use your Ruin example, that would be like Ruin making others ruinous, but not being ruinous himself. I don't think it fits. Trapping Cultivation like that against her will would be an enormous betrayal of her trust, akin to Ruin acting to preserve an enemy he's bent on destroying.

I really hope that Jasnah isn't straight. It'll be incredibly refreshing to actually have a queer main character in a Cosmere book, since so far we only have Ranette and Drehy confirmed. And I'm disinclined to count Drehy as existing queer representation in the Cosmere -- though I trust Brandon not to like, change his mind or lie about it, of course -- until it's actually confirmed in the text, not from WoB. Visibility is important when it comes to representation, which is why a lot of people dislike that Dumbledore's sexuality goes completely unmentioned in Harry Potter. Anyway, to me, the fact that Brandon makes such a point to be cagey about Jasnah's sexuality kind of does indicate that she isn't straight? Like, that's the thing here, if she were straight, a lot of people wouldn't give it a second thought, and I doubt Brandon would bother talking about this the way that he does, were that the case. Basically, his big commitment to not saying anything on that front gives me the most reason to believe that there's something to say on that front, if that makes any sense. As for shipping Jasnah, I know a popular one was Shasnah (Shallan/Jasnah) for good reasons, but personally I think that might be a little weird, since Shallan was primarily her student, plus the age difference. Still, it seems like after WoR, they'd be on more even footing... but I lean towards Shallan having a one sided crush on Jasnah, and there's plenty of fairly blatant text evidence for that in the books if you're paying attention. (That said, I kind of doubt that Brandon intentionally wrote Shallan as bisexual, but death of the author and all that.)

A Rosharan year is approximately equal to 1.1 Earth years, because the days are shorter on Roshar. (source) This means that the characters aren't drastically older than we're told.