therunner

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About therunner

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    Books - sci-fi (Dune, Oryx & Crake, anything by Asimov, Blindsight & Echopraxia, and a lot of others), fantasy (Anything from B.S., LoTR, Wheel of Time), and web-novels by Wildbow (Worm, Ward, Pact, Twig, Pale, with Twig/Pact being favourites)
    Movies - too many to count, but Star Wars is always good, and from more recent ones 'I'm thinking of ending things' was excellent
    occasionaly pencil drawing, but I suck at it :)
    Some sports with friends - billiard, volleyball, football

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  1. So, allomatically non-viable metals cannot be burned at all, however alloys with wrong ratios can but results in sickness. What would happen if allomancer burned duralumin while attempting to burn a wrong alloy? Could the duralumin boosted sickness be enough to potentially kill mistborn?
  2. Yep, in this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6374). The wording 'cancerous Forging' is fans, but Brandon seems to passively agree with it. Yeah, we do not have such proof yet. I think Brandon plans to go into the more 'spiritual' (feruchemically speaking) metals in Era 3, so we have at least 5-6 years before we have more firm data. Unless Lost Metal pleasantly surprises us.
  3. Since A-aluminum seems to work by negating/removing kinetic investiture in physical/cognitive/spiritual self, and Withering has been described as akin to hostile/cancerous Forging, aluminum would remove this investiture. Since Metalborn can 'feel' the metal reserves even when not burning them, there is already some link between metalborn and user, and it is possible that aluminum uses this link to remove metals.
  4. @HSuperLee you are correct, aluminum does not affect aluminum. I checked Final Empire, and when Vin burns Aluminun the line is "Immediately, all of her other metal reserves vanished." M:TFA, Ch. 36, pg. 597 this seems to be quite clear and implies her aluminum reserve remained. I would assume it would burn away any allomantically viable metals they can use (outside of aluminum), so if they had for example A-Tin spike, it would burn away Tin but leave Pewter for example. Of course, it is possible it would simply burn away all allomantically viable metals. If it did burn away all allomantically viable metals, it would in effect make it possible to test if metal is viable without need to try and burn the metal itself.
  5. @Frustration I don't know why, but for some reason this video is incredibly funny to me, thank you for posting it here
  6. I do not think it does, while tapping it/storing it changes the temperature of feruchemist and this can than affect environment, it is still indirect effect. When tapping F-pewter the feruchemists enlarges, and so displaces for example water if they were submerged, but that is also indirect effect.
  7. Which feruchemical effects can affect more than user? Outside of F-steel I can only think of F-Iron, as I would expect in more extreme cases of weight tapping Wax to damage his shoes for example (although the two scenes in mind, falling through floor and destroying the building, he is either lying on his back or in air). As far as I can remember all other effects of Feruchemy are purely on the feruchemist, it does not affect their clothing or items around them. In principle you could make argument F-Duralumin affects others, but since that is direct function of Connection, there it makes sense. I would personally also go in this 'spiritual' direction, but as it seems outside of mechanics of Feruchemy, it does not feel right. I would agree with Full Feruchemist being a better opponent for a Radiant (they can be faster, comparably strong and can heal), however I think they are more limited than Mistborn. Full Feruchemist fighting Radiant of 4th oath will use up considerable amount of his stores, so even if he wins he cannot do so again for at least few weeks, if not months. Mistborn would have harder time dealing with 4th Oath Radiant, but after a fight they can drink a few vials of metal and they are mostly good to go. Although if Mistborn got wounded they are out of fighting for few weeks as well (if they did not get killed outright).
  8. Cinematic effect is probably the closest to how it looks like, but mechanically it is odd. Some sort of field effect due to F-steel extending outwards from Feruchemist would explain also how they can manipulate fragile objects (like glass vials of metal, or open doors) at hundreds of meters per seconds speed, those objects should rightfully shatter when accelerated such. However, it does not make sense for Feruchemy to affect objects others than Feruchemist, so this explanation does not seem satisfactory to me either. I am not sure if multiple abilities being used in concert makes sense, Paalm also does things which do not make sense (handling objects at such speeds without damaging them), but it could be an option.
  9. So this is a bit outside of my usual wheelhouse, but I will give it a shot. I think here the primary source of heat is not friction (This is debatable, but I frankly do not have much idea how to quantify this) but heating due to air being compressed. I will assume adiabatic compression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process#Adiabatic_heating_and_cooling) and that one of here movements effectively worked like the piston compressing air to 1/10 of original volume at the leading surface of the movement (I honestly also do not know how well to estimate how much air will be compressed, but the 10 sounds like a good ballpark guess). This would create temperature difference of ~400 K. Heat conductance of skin is about 0.3 per some googling, so the amount of heat per second per surface area transferred would be ~133 J/(s*m^2). If that move lasted 0.5 second (that is upper limit we have) the amount of heat per surface area transferred is ~66 J/m^2 . Since heating up 1 gram of water by one degree takes 4.19 J, this amount of heat would heat up exposed surface of skin by about ~1-2 degrees, not enough to do any damage. Of course moving at such speed for 20 seconds would lead to both greater heating of air and also longer exposure, even if the temperature gradient remained the same the skin would heat up by 40-80 degrees i.e. it might start boiling. Of course there are additional factors, such as heat conducting away from the skin to deeper organs having cooling effect, changing of direction of movement serving to shortly decrease the air pressure, but I do not think these effects would have any influence on orders of magnitude. The clothing I would expect to be damaged not from heat itself (the movement was too short a time) but from effectively the 'wind', i.e. the air current flowing against it. Imagine what would happen to a shirt stuck on a pole in the middle of a tornado, there would be holes. And her speed is greater than a tornadoes by few orders of magnitude.
  10. Glad to be of assistance then I seem to recall you study politology and philosophy, so making a small mistake in unrelated area is understandable. I studied physics, so things like this jump out at me, and It is also why I keep trying to throw math at stuff EDIT: And the underlying argument you were going for still holds, just the units and reasoning is slightly different.
  11. True, but copper still does not allow you to only store a part of a memory. You either store it, or you do not, you cannot for example experience a car crash, and then store everything in that memory but one specific car. You can store only first 20 seconds of that, or the last 20, but all of what has happened is stored. Similarly, I simply do not think that F-Nicrosil allows you to manipulate the investiture, so to pick and choose which effect you store.
  12. Outside of storing heat you also need to tap breath, otherwise the hyperpressurized and heated air tears you lungs. In theory both of these could be overcome with enough F-Gold, but the issue there is, you still feel the pain, and simultaneously suffocating, being burned alive and torn by the wind would be very painful, dare I say debilitating even. Only gold savants don't feel pain, and that takes years and years of tapping compounded gold. So you need one of Twin-steel, Twin-gold, A-pewter (F-pewter would not be that useful I think, as it enlarges the muscles, increasing surface area and drag force) so 5 powers. A suitable twinborn with 3 power medallion could have it, but they would be debilitated by pain and would still need very large stores. Twin-steel, Twin-gold, F-cadmium, F-brass, A-pewter, so 7 powers. This is not possible with just medallions, so you would need at least 2 hemalurgic spikes and 3 power medallion, but at least it mitigates the pain from burning and suffocating, the pain from being torn limb to limb is still there though. The size of stores of F-steel is still the same. So this is potentially a contradiction to the extrapolated limits of feruchemy, however The WoB has to assume that the air friction is not a factor (so either vaccum, or they have Abrasion powers), otherwise it conflicts with other WoBs on steelrunning. We have no clue what he meant by 'close'. I would personally lean that 'close' is at least 1% of speed of light, which is still ridiculously lot. In principle though there is a technical loophole (which admittedly is not satisfactory to me), in that he never says for how long they could move at this speed. Since there is no upper limit on how fast you can tap a storage, in principle even ordinary feruchemist can move at nearly speed of light, it will just be such a short time interval that no one will even notice. However, better counterpoint is that we also have this bit newer WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10858) and this suggests that even when air friction is no longer a factor, they are much more limited than it would seem. Pressure blast of nuclear bomb moves at Mach ~20, so to not be able to outrun it would limit them to about tens of Machs as order of magnitude. If he meant outrunning the radiation, than it says basically the same thing as the WoB you linked. However his comment of 'not ever going to reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed' makes me think the first option (outrunning pressure blast) is more likely. Other (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175/#e8380) newer WoB also suggests they cannot reach such insane speed levels like hundreds or higher tens of Mach, otherwise A-pewter/F-steel could not win even a short race. We have created far faster vehicles than SR-71, for aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_Technology_Vehicle_2 , Mach 20), for spacecraft we routinely exceed escape velocity moving at ~60000 km/h so Mach ~60 (of course mostly out of atmosphere, otherwise the vehicles would melt and be torn apart). Marasi did not replenish anything, she used up a lot of speed, and handed them off to Wax. While she did not show any ill effects, she was also moving at supersonic speeds for barely half a second, which would help a lot to mitigate some damage (and was tapping all other attributes as well, and at least healing would have helped a lot, although the fact that her clothing is not damaged at all is odd inconsistency with stated mechanics). The issue is still that at such speeds you need other attributes, and the air forces will set you on fire and tear you limb from limb, causing debilitating pain even to someone with C-Gold. Also based on our single point of evidence from books, even Mach ~10 velocities drain steelminds very fast, after half a second user was worried about tapping too much. Other demonstrated feats of BoM Granting steelsight of such level Marasi and Wax see souls, ability beyond even Marsh with 21 spikes and comparable to ascending Vin. Pushing on trace metals, again beyond even Marsh's ability. Exuding mist, something never seen before, not even from Lerasium Mistborn or Lord Ruler (although he was a bit of a layabout) Healing death, again something unseen previously. clearly suggest that the stores of BoM were compounded, and yet only Mach ~10 steel was explicitly singled out as 'draining too fast'. So a two minor corrections Speed * mass is not force it is momentum, so all the values of force you listed are not force at all, but momenta (this does not change your argument that much, but correctness is important) Second, air drag is a thing, the metal sphere would have radius about ~7cm, and the air drag on it would be ~90 kN of force. That would result in acceleration of the sphere of 9000 m/s^2, i.e. it would get slowed down very quickly. Mind you, if the 10 kg ball was moving just at twice the speed of sound, it would definitely shatter a section of shardplate. Although shardplate does seem to resist blunt impacts better than edges, so you might be better with of with lightly sharpened rods or something with edges. I would correct a small thing here as well, due to greater losses for faster tapping, if Marasi sustained Mach 10 for 0.5 second, Mach 1 would be sustained for longer than 5 second, due to less stored investiture being used on compression. I hope my corrections do not come off as rude, I just wish to try and stick to the stated effects (like losses from tapping fast) and known physics as close as possible.
  13. This indicates that Nicrosil would store strength, speed, health, balance, agility and any other invested attribute from pewter burning separately, and it also answers why windwhisper store senses in separate metalminds if they are also Tineye burning tin to be stored. The real question then is does it get stored as allomantic or feruchemical strength since Nicrosil stores investiture not specifically strength. Brutes store the strength as Feruchemical strength from burning pewter so their muscles would enlarge when they tapped it, but Nicrosil might store it as a magnification of strength instead without the attendant muscle increase. Just food for thought. So, no it does not indicate that at all? Your theory on nicrosil storing various pewter attributes rests on two points, both of which are not actually supported yet Kinetic investiture is storable (on this we have RAFOs at best). That F-nicrosil allows feruchemist to 'divide' singular kinetic investiture into different attributes. On the first point, I think that might be possible even though so far all that is being talked about being stored (including in the WoB you linked) is static Investiture in spiritweb, i.e. storing ability to have some ability. In the WoB he says that Mistborn with F-nicrosil can store for exaple ability to use A-pewter and A-bronze, and have them separate. Nothing about kinetic investiture at all. The point two, that F-nicrosil can 'divide' kinetic investiture, has no relation to the WoB at all. And I do not really think that could be done, could you separate stormlight's healing property from its physical 'perfecting' property? They are both effects of one singular kind of investiture, not separate abilities. I do think you could store A-pewter health into a goldmind, A-pewter strength into pewtermind and A-pewter speed into steelmind, but I do not think you could store this into nicrosilmind. And F-tin is not a good argument either. F-tin allows you to store different senses separately, does that mean that F-steel allows you to store speed of different body parts separately? Or F-pewter storing strength of different limbs separately? Or F-gold storing health of individual body parts/organs? Answer to all of these is no, so I do not see why F-tin would be argument. F-tin is the outlier not the rule. EDIT: I now realize that the last point on F-tin is not that good, you could argue that F-nicrosil is like F-tin, with 'kind of investiture'='sense'. However, I still think that does not support your point. I think that separating individual abilities out of A-pewter investiture would be like F-tin storing for example 'red-color vision', they cannot do that. F-tin can store senses, not parts of sense, and in the same way F-nicrosil can only store Investiture, not only part of it.
  14. Ah, then yeah the quote from SH pretty much disproves it, as Ruin does not seem worried that Kel made a mistake. I was just surprised at the coincidence that the metal Kel was looking for looks the same way as the one metal we know can interfere with Invested healing, and thought there might be something more to it. I have not gotten to SH in my reread yet, so thank you for that quote. I was under the impression that Aluminum would interfere with the healing more, possibly actively prevent it, but since Returned could come back alive with Aluminum in body, Aluminum is not as strong a weapon as I though it would be. Thank you for these WoBs as well.
  15. I try not to ignore any citations, but I do usually check them and if is it the coppermind I check the sources of the coppermind, and sometimes it does not say what you are trying to present it as, or I disagree with your interpretation. The second WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7128) nowhere states that it is difficult or unusual, it only says that the only place we could have seen current Stormlight Archive characters is in Era 2 Scadrial (because there are no other books outside of SoTD that are set at a later time) and that due to trapping of Odium (and other things, most likely Recreance) travel both into and from Roshar has diminished compared to some previous era. How is this missing context? Someone asks if it is really balanced if it gives diminishing returns, and Brandon answers? There really is no context to be missing, if someone taps stores faster (which per the second WoB means faster than some set maximum amount) there are losses, and from this WoB it seems that the maximum natural tapping rate is most likely (since per the second WoB it does not depend on rate of storage) 100% human attribute, i.e. that without loss you can double your attributes. The reason Brandon uses the term compounding (notice the small c) is because 1) compounding is an english word with some meaning that was applicable in this context and 2) the term Compounding was not yet defined (the WoB is from 15th Oct 2008, 1 day after release of HoA), so Brandon had no reason to avoid using the word And again, per the second WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) which is more recent (being from 2012) the loss is always there if you tap large amount of attribute, period. No shenaningans will get you around that, and unless you decide to disregard this WoB or know about some different one, I really do not see how you can claim this is not a problem for Compounders. 100 mph would be definite advantage, I have no problem acknowledging that. But it is also not outside of scope of reaction times of even normal human, tennis balls move at such speeds regularly and yet normal people can play tennis without missing every single ball. Ordinary person (no stormlight) in deadplate has improved reaction time and speed probably at somewhere between 2x-2.5x of ordinary person, with strength at least 10x improved. Stormlight on its own marginally improves ('perfects' is the word used) and allows people not to tire, so I would expect someone in living plate to be moving at top speeds of ~60mph maybe a bit more. So yeah, someone moving at 100mph would most likely ruin 3rd oath Radiant's day, and might have a chance against 4th oath if they have either some good guns, or great strength improvements (Duralumin+Pewter, F-Pewter). Concorde (designed to be aerodynamic, and flying at altitude where outside temp is ~ -20 Celsius) regularly heated up to 100 degrees Celsius, and its top speed was limited to Mach 2.02 because otherwise outside temperature would exceed the limit of aluminum body which was 127 degrees Celsius. Mind, the body was also coated in specialized white paint to bring the temperatures down another 11 degrees Celsius, without that the speed would be even more limited. So that is why I think moving at Mach 2 air heating is hazardous, because it is. If you tried moving at such speeds at sea level the heating would be even greater because Air density at sea level is ~4x greater than at flight height. Air temperature is ~40 degrees Celsius higher, so even neglecting the increase in density, at Mach 2 the compressed air would have temperature ~167 degrees Celsius. A person is nowhere near as aerodynamic as Concorde is, even with specialized equipment. Finally, Era 2 Scadrial definitely does not have more advanced material science that 1970s earth, so they really cannot come up with material/armor to mitigate this sufficiently. Actually, even if they were, at these temps you would need active cooling or the person simply cooks, you cannot fool physics. Fancier materials won't help you when the reason for temperatures is compressed air, not even the friction. And this not even address how the air drag would be something the steel twin needs to fight through. A person just trying to walk into a mere 200 mph sustained wind has a great difficulty, try imagine what trying to walk into a sustained wind of ~1500mph would be like. So yeah, even with unlimited stores Mach 2 would be incredibly dangerous even for tens of seconds or so for steel compounder. True we have seen a lot of Scadrians/Scadrian descendent. However, you will notice that even in Era 2 no one Scadrial does not seem to know about Cognitive Realm, much less Spiritual one. Even our protaginsts don't know Cognitive realm is a thing much less about existence of other populated planets. Kandra most likely know because Harmony told them, but no else does. The only cosmere aware Scadrian organizations are The Set (serving another Shard most likely) and The Ghostbloods (started by Kelsier a cognitve shadow). Conversely on Roshar every single one of our protagonists knows about Cognitive and regularly travel into it, and are also being informed about specific other planets. It is true that metalborn have advantage in that their investiture keys are widely available, being just metal. However the metals need to be allomatically viable (is this also necessary for Feruchemy? ) so they would need to do one of the following Carry proper metals (mainly the alloys, but the normal metals probably also need to be very pure) with them. Find someone to prepare metals for them (this would require them to also carry Connection medallion for language) Prepare the necessary alloys themselves, which requires access to smelting facilities and forges. So they can access, but it is not as easy as going to other planet, grabbing a piece of steel they find and burning that, that would most likely not do much. You cannot have it both ways, either the Identity-lock updates as the Identity changes (and storing/tapping is just a change in Identity, if not in kind than in magnitude) and then unkeyed metalminds are impossible, or it does not and unkeyed minds are possible. You cannot say, Identity-lock updates for changes in Identity, except for unkeyed metalminds, there is really nothing to support such difference. You misrepresenting other people's position is not doing you any favours. No one says that shardblades are ultimate weapon, they are however ultimate melee weapon (Nightblood is better, but also not really repeatable it seems). Guns are long-range weapons, and explosives are area weapons, so both quite different categories. No one says that Shardplate is 'all but indestructible', we all acknowledge that 2-3 bullets to a section can destroy it. Shardblades can break a section in a few blows. Sustained attack with hammers and staves from Warform Singer (so ~2x human strength at least) can destroy a section, but it takes minutes not seconds. F-pewter with a proper weapon could probably destroy a section faster, but it would still take tens of seconds. The bulk of the muscles would also limit them, so shardbearer could easily dodge, unless it was Full Feruchemist or they had medallions. Duralumin-pewter with a proper weapon might destroy a section in one-two blow, but feats of Duralumin seem inconsistent and it might depend on amount of metal in metalborn's body. Soulcasting can destroy plate (there is a WoB on this, but I cannot find it at the moment :/) Shardplate also does grant superhuman strength exceeding anything else seen in Cosmere so far (Duralumin-pewter not withstanding, but that is one move thing, not sustained). At the very least strength of someone in sharplate is 10x ordinary human strenght and that is deadplate (but I would assume living plate to be comparable) beyond what Scadrial can offer. Speed and reflexes are not as extremely improved, but are still at least 2x improved, so comparable to burning pewter, so not really best in cosmere, but still respectable. Stormlight healing is said in WoBs and shown in text to be on the same level as F-Gold and due to relative abundance of investiture on Roshar in effect functions as compounded Gold (possibly with exception of healing decapitation). So it is comparable to the very best healing cosmere has to offer. For Radinat on 4th oath, in my opinion very few metalborn could touch them for following reasons: Metalborn cannot afford to get hit, unless they have compounded Gold. This right off the bat forces them to either attack from distance (so guns) or to have F-steel, or atium (which might not be burnable by non natural-mistborn) To get through plate requires either gun, Duralumin-steel push coins (maybe), Duralumin-pewter melee attack, or F-pewter. To actually kill Radiant, you either need to remove their Stormlight (Chromium, force them to use it all up) or use aluminum to vital areas. The gun seems like an obvious solution, however sprenblade can shapeshift and so far the only thing we have ever seen to damage sprenblade (altough it was Honorblade) is Nightblood, so I would expect sprenshield to withstand gunfire quite well. This means you need to fire from different angles faster than Radiant can move his shield, again forcing F-steel. I think Mistborn with F-steel would have a chance, but some orders could still beat them, through good use of surges (abrasion, transformation, transportation, cohesion, gravitation would be useful in such fight). Mistborn without F-steel would lose against most orders, unless they resorted to stalling tactics, then it is about 6/4 (6 of the orders wins, the others are outlasted). Full Feruchemist with enough speed might also win, but he has no good way to reach them in the air or cognitive, so orders with gravitation/transportation would still have an edge. An he would need to be very careful in close quarters, because sprenblade to spine would kill him anyway and abrasion could potentially be a big barrier. Unchained Bondsmith can steal connection at his whim, it was clearly shown in RoW through Ishar and the fact that Melishi also saw Connection lines. If unchained Bondsmith touches you, you have big problems. Kredik Shaw (if this is castle you mention) was destroyed only after Vin inhaled all the Mist and was in process of Ascending to Preservation, not really your usual cirsumstances. The building was a one time thing (Wax nearly depleted his entire stores) and it was a wooden building, if you forcibly remove the very things holding it together (nails and such) of course it will fall apart. Faster than can be tracked is only Paalm (possible compounding, and based on experience with bendalloy bubble she is only sped up 11x most of the time) and Marasi (only for ~0,5 second, so not really enough time to kill someone in plate). Healing from explosions is well withing limits of stormlight healing, provided you have enough stormlight (just as F-Gold needs large enough stores), decapitation was never demonstrated on-screen and Lord Ruler has vested interest in spreading misinformation about his capabilities (he claims to be a part of God afterall). Thrown horses was Vin with duralumin, already unsually strong allomancer (something Kelsier notes in the first book) for a one time attack burning her entire steel reserve. In the same vein we could say that all Windrunners can dodge as easily as Kaladin does. We also never see metalborn dig through solid stone and destroy hammer too heavy for two people to lift (~150 kg at least) in the process, and yet we do not say that Feruchemist with large enough store could not approach such feat (altough the bulk of muscle could make it more difficult for them). I am sorry you see it this way, however why did you not engage my post where I listed each individual order of Radiants against Mistborn (page 46) and dispute my claims? It is not like I said 'Radiant win lolz', I went through all 10 orders and try to present pros and cons of each order against Mistborn. You were active in the thread on the same day, but you did not bother to dispute my arguments. In that very post I came to conclusion that even 4th order Radiants, only about half the orders stands a good chance at winning, with the other orders either loosing or being outlasted by Mistborn. So to present that this thread is somehow overwhelmingly Rosharan biased seems not very well supported. When large part of your statements rest on either unsupported conjectures (aluminum feruchemy feats, F-iron black holes, F-steel ultrasonic speeds) or bad physics (mass increasing with speed) you should not be surprised to see pushback. Publius' post was for example well supported, I merely pointed out some possible counters Roshar could deploy (suppressors), possible magic limitations (number of hemalurgic spikes in person) and logistic issues due to population size and rarity of metalborn. The basic idea still works, it is just not as overwhelming as portrayed in the first post in my opinion.