Elwynn

I wouldn't call it definitive, but CH. 46 epigraph is also pretty suggestive that you had to go through Urithiru.

I see what you mean. I always thought the loss of everything after a desolation was more related to the pure destruction of...well everything during a desolation. The more time between would just mean more time to rediscover. You're right though, and I think there might be a quote but I can't remember, that in the beginning the time between desolations was incredibly long. Heck, the starfalls vision was stated as, "Eight Epoch, 337" or something, so even by the eighth or ninth desolation there were several hundred years in beetween. I get that you obviously think you have. That's what has me baffled. Seriously, you were quoting stuff that didn't even remotely relate to the discussion. But even more, I get that you don't want to talk about it anymore. At least we agree the art is beautiful right?

Of course not. Speculating is done with no evidence or support. Which is what you're doing when saying some small part of Odium is responsible for the red mist being red. There's much more logical evidence for what the red mist is and who represents it; which is also consistent with a very straightforward wob. Goalposts. This has nothing to do with why the mist is red or who represents it. Nightblood is destroying on all three realms, and the black smoke is investiture leaking. That is very different from a Shard (which NB isn't) co-opting or tweaking another Shard's investiture for their benefit, which is what the wob refers to.

@Pathfinder I tried quoting again but it's gets a bit confusing when previous quotes don't get carried over. So I'll try piecemeal. This began in relation to the artwork. Jez looks Alethi in the artwork(the only one who looks Alethi). So the artwork is pretty accurate. This has no relation to the artwork. I already agreed that Amaram (or anyone) would be surprised at a herald having darkeyes, similar to Dalinar's response to Jez. This has nothing to do with the Art you claim all look Alethi. Alethi didn't even do the artwork. Amaram has erroneous expectations of a herald's appearance. But the artwork doesn't. Shalash, Ishar, and Vedel do not look Alethi so how can you claim they're culturally washed out? They aren't even done by an Alethi artist. Well, Oilsworn isn't. This says nothing about the discussion of the endpapers. I'm aware of who Shalash is. Again, this says nothing about the discussion of the artwork. It is stated many times Shalash and Taln are dark skinned, and Taln is the darker pigmented one. Shalash is dark skinned in the art, so it is somewhat accurate and not 'washed out' from Alethi expectations. Jez is depicted Alethi and looks nothing like Shalash. As per the quotes from the books as well as the WoB I posted above, it is refuted. You're not even attempting to address the artwork in relation to wobs and in-book descriptions. I don't know how you think any of those wobs refute anything. The artwork doesn't display all the heralds as Alethi, in fact is presents them as drastically different. Which is the opposite of you saying they all look Alethi in the art.

What you're responding to is not speculation. What you're doing is speculation. Rampant speculation. You're skeptical of a literal, straight answered wob because of...this? You want to dismiss wobs because it's ever so slightly possible(and in no way logically consistent) that a torn off piece of Odium's power, severely weakened, can co-opt another full Shard's investiture and then attack and pressure Harmony (2 shards!) all within 15 years? This is...out there. I'm really not sure what this is supposed to respond to. This is about Ruin's investiture being involved in Nightblood's creation...I agreed that it's obviously a form of corrupted investiture when Nightblood consumes (does his thiing)...not sure what else this wob is supposed to 'answer' to the three of us. Nightblood's creation is almost wholly unknown so saying Ruin or Endowment co-opted/corrupted another's investiture is unsupported at least. Or did you mean something else?

Yeah, sorry but it's just willful ignorance to say, "That being representing the red mist at the end of BoM? Totally could be Odium." I actually had this argument included in my reply but like you say, it's impossible to know if Odium gets free after book 5. I don't believe it for a second but I could see the argument being made that he's the big bad of the cosmere. Agreed though. @Necessary Eagle pointed out that it's wob'd to be Shard specific, but you're right that this is a form of corrupted investiture that I didn't remember.

Fair enough. I don't agree, mostly because of technicalities (amount of eye shadow covering the eyelid) that could just be liberties taken on the interpretation. Yeah, certainly more than enough time, which is why I lean toward younger (ha!) ages for the heralds. For the bolded part, are you saying you think desolations could have extended a century or two? That seems overly long to me. Nohadon's vision had 9 out of 10 people dead and the world destroyed in a decade, with Nohadon not even knowing anyone who could write anymore (and presumably read). Ten years would be the upper bound on desolation lengths to me. Roshar myths exaggerate so much but I envision much smaller timelines. I have no idea why you would quote so many wobs saying they're in world depictions. I agreed with that point in my post. What I was rebutting is your generalization that they "all look Alethi" which is clearly wrong, in-book or in the endpages. Quote? I remember Amaram and Taln but don't recall where you're pulling this from. This is backwards to me anyways. Jezrien looks Alethi, which would fit with cultural assumptions of anyone not scholarly. Taln isn't depicted in the endpages, but it makes sense that anyone would be surprised a herald is darkeyed (when not holding an honorblade). Quote? I don't believe this at all. Shalash is dark skinned, just like the artwork, but someone like Taln is the full blown ebony Makabaki; the in book descriptions (which show how the artwork is far more accurate than you're giving credit) back this up. Besides, no one is claiming these are exact, but they're far more accurate than when you said: This is confusing because the artwork ISN'T selective of a specific regional culture or race. No one would look at Shalash and Ishar and go, "totally the same nationality." The most important thing I'm trying to hammer on is: The artwork matches their in-book descriptions. Until that is refuted, the pictures can be considered somewhat accurate. Just not exact about specific details. Taln isn't depicted in the endpages. The artwork DOES contradict Alethi culture, you're citing things about Shalash I don't recall. Basically, they don't appear Alethi and I have no clue how you ever thought that. So they aren't represented by cultural washing like Jesus being white. I just don't see where you're coming from with any of your arguments.

That wasn't your point though...and now you're just moving goalposts. No, we don't know the technical aspects of how a shard tweaks another's for their benefit. But we do have literal wobs stating that the color red is representative of this happening.

Maybe this will help, Karger. SPOILERS FOR MISTBORN ERA 2 (just assume era 1 as well) AKA WAX AND WAYNE

The cosmere timeline is completely wonky and much shorter than what the legends of Roshar would have you think. There was only one lifetime between the exodus from Ashynn and the heralds approaching Honor to form the Oathpact. There is a ton of stuff that has to happen between those events: arrival and settlement, dissatisfaction with just Shinovar, skirmishes and then war break out, Odium approaches and gifts the Fused their ability, more fighting until humans realize what they're against and form the Oathpact...one lifetime. Then there are ~20-25 desolations in total with the last few occurring with the last few occurring in quick succession. I tend to think times got shorter and even desolation 15 or so only had a handful of years between them. All that being said, yes, I think you're probably closer to the correct age, but I'm guessing that to be the upper bound. Hard to say really, there's so much we don't know. So you see those endpapers and go, "Yeah, Ishar and Shalash totally look Alethi." ??? Even their in book descriptions match closer to the endpapers than, "all appear primarily Alethi." We know Shalash has Shin eyes and Vedel doesn't appear to have epicanthic folds either. Ishar looks about as white as they come (So Shin or west coast Roshar). You are correct that they're in world depictions, but they're more accurate than you seem to give credit. You can stick with your pessimism at their accuracy (I mean, you're not really wrong about them being depictions), but we have Shalash's and Jezrien's descriptions and the in world art seems quite the likeness. Saying they all appear Alethi is tantamount to wearing blinders and ignoring available info.

The Heralds are super old but closer to about 5000 years old. The shattering took place about 10,000 years ago and BS has given cosmere timeline estimates as low as 6000 years since the shattering (though several more that seem to suggest he's settling around a 10,000 year arc). There are many quotes if you look through #chronology on Arcanum, but here's just one. Do you have the Oathbringer hardback? It's only four but they're very detailed in world depictions of Vedel, Ishar, Jez, and Ash. I believe they're accurate.

That would positively fill them with Dredd.

Maybe not my one thing, but I'd love to see this play out with Szeth, his spren, and Nightblood. NB: Destroy him! Destroy evil! Spren: We don't have the statutory papers signed. NB: But look at him, he's hurting people. That's evil. Spren: That would be breaking the law, which is also evil. NB: Shashara taught me to recognize evil, we should kill him. Szeth: Let's go find Dalinar...

Both! When the text says, "boss" it's supposed to say box. At least that's how the audio came off to me. DragonCon Prologue

Each book contains a prologue that depicts the night the assassin in white killed Gavilar, but from a different viewpoint. This is the fourth prologue, or the prologue of the fourth book; it's Navani's point of view this time.