BenduLuke

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About BenduLuke

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    aka First Lightbringer the Identity Weaver

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    Religion, spirituality, physics, astronomy, reading (almost any topic at some time), movies and television, super heroes. dogs.
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  1. Mist on Scadrial is not made up of water like fog, nor does it act exactly like it is. For instance it doesn't cross boundaries nor is there ever a comment on the air being more humid. You still haven't addressed that energy of which light is a form, metal, and soul are the same in the Cosmere. After the perpendicularity closed Jasna found it increasingly more difficult to Soulcast. Her ability to seemingly soulcast effortlessly has to do with her skill, practice and perhaps her oath level. Still she finds it more difficult than she did during that battle because of the relative closeness or separation of the realms. Blocks or disrupts what is the difference? From Iron Copper mind: "There are two general rules for ironpulling, which also apply to steelpushing, its paired opposite. The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight," Mass affects Steel and Iron as more than just an anchor. Look if you increase your fortune 1 million times in just 5 compounds it would enable insane foresight or luck. that is just 5 times each additional time beyond that is 10 times more. At the very least that is a 1 million seconds (277 years) at twice you natural luck after 5 compounds. Another way to look at it is a long life time at 6 times your natural luck. At six compoundings 60 times then 600 times then 6,000 times, then 60,000 times, then 600,000 times, and finally 6 million times for a life time in a total of 10 compoundings even if the initial time spent storing is only 1 second. Every form of compounding is about increasing a power or attribute by geometric scale tappable without loss in the time it took to store initially. Feruchemy is lossless so long as you don't compress the time. Give me a link to where the cubes are described as ette metal? They are used as primers for ette metal fuel in the southern air ships, but they act more like nicrosil themselves. Nicrosil stores or enhances investiture. The Radiant needs to reach close range, and you have been assuming a lot of speed and maneuverability vs fire arms projectiles and explosives. I don't think we have concrete examples to support that assumption. Even subsonic bullets traveling 600 ft/sec have a velocity of 216,000 mph and those are slow bullets. So forming a shield or changing direction before impact is highly unlikely even for a Radiant. If the ammunition is aluminum the Radiant can afford a single hit either. Explosive or armor piercing rounds would also be a problem as would rapid fire weapons. Suppressor fabrial would work if it were keyed to suppress cadmium. Though I am not sure how they would come up with one that did. Perhaps I am mistaken but the cube did seem to leech Wax at a distance. I don't remember it actually hitting him. Right if they have the chance to breath in stormlight they will likely survive that strike, but all that stormlight used all at once fueling a gravity lashing into a solid barrier would be spectacular and very quick. No plate it might be rotten tomato. It might also be interesting whether the wall gets knocked down or the Radiant goes splat or some combination. Your WoB contradicts the explicit description in the Coppermind, by Wax, and by Sazed. It is also a paraphrase of what the person thinks they asked and the response they think they received. In addition we don't have a recording to verify how accurate the person was. Even though it is included in WoB's we can't be sure it is exactly what Brandon said or what was actually asked. No I am no arbiter of objectivity only Brandon is in this instance. I am an arbiter of whether someone shares my subjective opinion, and grant that others have their own subjective opinions which I may or may not share mine in full or in part. The whole world was objectively flat according to everybody at the time, except that was actually a subjective fact taken as objective. When we see how Brandon treats these abilities in his books then we will know what is objective. His treatment of Iron Feruchemy from my perspective leaves room for supposition. Wax has a subjective opinion which from his experience is accurate, but is still limited to his restrictions on storing. Water isn't a metal, or energy so is not actually the same. It is a fungus or lifeform living on the sand that converts the light into investiture on Taldain(?). That was from the intro to white sand in Arcanum Unbound. Here is a creative use of Rosharan weaponry. A shardbullwhip instead of a Shardsword. That could be interesting. Shard jet boots on dustbringers plate to fly with using Division. they might even be able to form Shard wings for stability.
  2. Threnody thanks for the correction glad you understood. What do you think the downsides of aluminum savantism might be? I think you misunderstood I was refering to the battle in Oath bringer where Dalinar first opened a perpendicularity. As for an aluminum bubble I got that Idea from it creating a bubble of disruption within a bendalloy bubble. It is also stated that it disrupts gravity surges and other directed surges. In the descriptions the strength of both steel and iron are affected by their mass. We really haven't seen anyone with the amount of fortune possible with compounded chromium. You might almost imagine someone like that to be like Scooby, inspector gadget, or get Smart on steroids. For that matter they might be like how Jackie Chan's characters appear luckily surviving encounters. Thug/Soulbearers would also likely be far more accurate and able to use heavy projectile weapons as well. They would also be able to fire those rounds much more rapidly and at greater range. Once in close they could also use heavier melee weapons and would have a greater healing ability and pain resistance than average. Using nicrosil grenades would be about timing. Someone launched into space by their own gravity lashing would likely have time to suck in stormlight. If they were headed down or toward and obstacle they might not have enough time to suck up stormlight before impact. A grenade launcher with sights would be a great way to to get the grenade on target. The fact that the Nicrosil cube doesn't actually need to hit you also implies that Nicroburst's might also develop ranged use of their abilities in the future. A cadmium allomancer with Nicrosil cubes might not have the same problem. The Radiant frozen in time by the nicrosil cube would have a big problem. Again it would be timing that would be crucial. There is not real surprise since Scadrials more modern weaponry would be used in conjunction with their magic. Separating them would be like separating Fabrials, and shards from Radiants. Except there is not specific oath requirement that restricts Scadrian Tech. I am not willing to put the effort into more creative surge use since that is your preference and or bias. here is the source of your WoB https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2422-hal-con/#comment-44676 where he says this "The majority of these questions and answers are paraphrased, as I wasn't able to record them, and I wasn't able to write everything down exactly as it was said. If the answer was a partial evasion, I did make sure to make special note of it, so those answers should be as said." That WoB may seem clear but it is contradictory and may not be accurate. Other WoB's are old enough and examples of him not wanting to reveal information at the time which has been updated. So when you quote be sure to look at both dates and sources of the WoB. Again it seems that the coppermind is updated as new WoB's come out. I don't think the allomantic grenade was ette metal. I think it was nicrosil and was used as a spark for the ette metal fuel in the ship. Ette metal as the cubes material would be way to dangerous. Used as high explosives it would be great. I have long been disabused of the idea that people in this thread are being objective. To assume that if someone agrees with you they are being objective is a fallacy, as is assuming that if someone disagrees with you they are not being objective. From my perspective almost all comments are subjective until I see otherwise and I take them as such. If light had no mass solar sails wouldn't work. Oh and Jasna said that Shallon's illusions had mass since light has some mass. Sunlight from Taldain's sun is still light unless you think Taldain's sun is fundamentally different than other stars in the Cosmere? Light is energy and energy is investiture in the Cosmere, along with metal and soul they are all the same thing in different forms. More opportunity to burn aluminum. Also likely burning more aluminum and burning it more often.
  3. Aluminum is unique. Hemalugically it is the only metal that doesn't steal attributes or power. You cannot use it to transfer abilities from one person to another. I looked at the hemalugic bind point illustration for steel inquisitors and saw that the bind points available for aluminum were in a pair of locations on both sides of the pelvis, both fore arms, and both shin. Now if they were put there these aluminum hemalugic spikes would render the inquisitor powerless regardless what other spikes they have. (aluminum spike handcuffs and shackles anyone). Hemalurgic aluminum strait up removes powers. On Roshar that could be interpreted as surges, bonds, or invested light. healing and extra physical ability are also powers. In additions it doesn't just remove some power but all powers and I reason that the most effective way to do that to a Radian would be to act as a stormlight sink to remove stormlight. Brandon also said that aluminum in the body interferes and or interacts with power in the body. (much of this comes from the foot notes on aluminum). One other thing about aluminum is that Brandon said allomantic aluminum would be more effective at removing withering than feruchemical gold. From what I have seen that appears to be one of the most devastating invested ailments in the Cosmere. It has also been implied that a Savant might be able to remove not just invested injuries, but other forms of impurity as well. I think you would practically need to be an aluminum compounder to become a savant. An aluminum twin probably wouldn't need silver on Nalthis. Jasnah was particularly effective during the battle because the 3 realms were practically merged in the region due to the Dalinar perpendicularity. "And how would aluminum neutralize/resist Surges? Unless you encase the entire person (i.e. head to toe and no gaps), Reverse Lashing could affect them, and even if they are fully encased in Aluminum, Division could still set the ground on fire, Soulcasting could still create tomb/oil on fire, Lightweaver could still blind them/fool them, Cohesion could still shape stone and trap their feet. Tension and Abrasion would be difficult, but Radiant could still apply it to themselves and have either better protection or better mobility." I will address this. Indirect attacks are a great option when the target can counter a direct strike. An aluminum nat would be all but impossible to directly use a surge on against their will. Trapping his feet with cohesion requires time and contact near those feet. Abrasion, adhesion, soulcasting, division or any other surge used directly as quick as he can burn aluminum. If he moved quickly enough he might disrupt any surge used near him by passing through it just like he can disrupt bendalloy bubbles and an area around himself (yeah it creates a small bubble itself only evident in contrast to other nearby investiture. Which might mean the ground below his is also not going to be surgeable. You seem so knowledgeable that i am surprised I even need to explain this to you. You want to know who could likely go toe to toe with a Radiant. Obviously steel and iron compounders. After just 5 compounding sessions either has 1,000,000 times more attribute than they started with (that is the same with all compounders). that level of speed or mass would provide incredible allomanic and physical abilities. Brandon may say that F-iron doesn't increase density, but in the books he shows that their is an effect on density. What it doesn't obviously provide is density against penetration,but broken bones it has been shown to strongly resist that as well as giving proportionally greater strength. 1 million time stronger structure and muscle strength may even give the ability to affect shards with allomancy. Another toe to toe possibility is a Chromium compounder. 1 million times more luck/fortune would likely always being in the right place with the right resources to kill a Radiant. A thug/soulbearer would likely have the stored invested physical abilities to outclass any radiant and given the right equipment would likely win most engagements toe to toe. With enough time to prepare a sparker/slider would likely be able to gun down 3rd oath and below from the safety of a bubble and perhaps win by booby trap any oath level. A cadmium misting armed with nicrosil grenades could turn anyone into a sitting duck so might also be able to kill most radiants. I can only imagine the havoc a Nicrosil twin with nicrosil grenades would cause especially if they had some kind of grenade launcher. (grenade activates near a windrunner and suddenly his gravity lashing launches him into space, a wall, the ground or just really fast then his stormlight is gone. Hopefully their shardplate survives any impact because their healing is also gone.) I'll leave it up to you to come up with creative surge use since you are the ones mostly promoting Rosharan magic winning. From the Feruchemy coppermind we get this mechanic for Feruchemy: when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in, for example, if they store 50% of their strength for one hour they can tap that and be at 150% of their strength for one hour. However, if the Feruchemist taps at a greater rate, then some of the attribute is lost, So long as you don't tap the stored attribute faster than it was stored, 1 hour, or 1 day for example you always get back what you store. The WoB you quoted doesn't account for this. Yes I know it says tapping large amounts but if you go the origional source the author of the question admits to paraphrasing his questions and responses so the coppermind has the more complete response or description of the mechanics. This is one example of where a WoB is vague or potentially inaccurate or of limited accuracy. I have notices that Brandon has a tendency to limit his responses to only the most narrow circumstances so as to retain some Cosmere surprises. One thing you would never guess is that leeching can be done without touching someone, but Nicrosil grenades leech at a distance without touching you so could leeching at a distance be done by a person with enough skill like soulcasting can? After all nicrosil grenades show that distance leeching is possible. I see your disputes and many times my first mental response it you haven't really thought it through. Even the WoB's you quote can be interpreted in multiple ways that don't nessisarily support the position you propose, but I look them up anyway and as often as not disregard them because I don't think they say what you think they say. I have quoted many articles in the course of this discussion (I am very selective of what I quote because so many can be interpreted in multiple ways or contradict each other), but when others disregard them I choose not to continue to quote them. You on the other hand keep quoting the same WoB's presuming that I will change my mind on what they say or how accurate they are like the one about tapping massive attributes. Always consider the context, the source, and any other canonical information on the subject before you assume it supports your position. Aluminum blocks shardblades and for now that is Brandon's position (I found that in the footnotes of Aluminum) His team is still debating the topic. That could mean that even a thin sheet of aluminum foil will stop a shardblade since we have never seen a shardblade cut anything made of aluminum. The coppermind gives the proviso that if it is thick enough without saying how thick. Nightblood's scabard can stop a shardblade slash from Nightblood itself. Scabards are not usually very thick and one made of aluminum would likely bend or even be cut through if struck by a regular sword. This discussion has not been objective. It is entirely subjective on both sides and to assume it is not is unrealistic. The best anyone can hope for is that someone else will accept their subjective opinion. You all seem to think I should accept your subjective opinions as objective while rejecting my own subjective opinion, and that wont happen. I may grant that I can see your subjective position and where it comes from and maybe even think it is rational or even likely, but I get very frustrated that many times maybe even most you all wont do the same. @Frustration Light also has mass. It is minuscule but it does have some. So that is not a difference between light and stomlight. Incidentally sunlight gives investiture to sand on Taldain. So the right frequency and pulse of light will destroy stormlight and kill Radiants along with their spren.
  4. Brandon didn't have a scientific explanation of why increasing mass without increasing density especially for a strait skimmer. A strait skimmer like Wax has a limited amount of mass that they can store so that would be the first thing to limit their effective overall density. Another way I rationalize a density increase without much change to penetration resistance is that not everything increases in density at the same rate and some things in the body don't increase at all. To remain standing bone density must increase much more than anything else, and to be able to continue to move normally muscle density must also increase though not nearly as much as bone density. Most of the body is water and it wont increase at all. Other tissues like skin might not increase density or if they do only very minimally. If there are major differences, as I presume, to density increases in different parts of the body then it would take significant magnitude to start to see an effect on projectiles, but it would occur if the mass increased enough. Thanks for the list. One thing aluminum twins would be is largely immune to surge attacks and capable of reversing shard damage. Beyond that other things I have imagined for their potential are educated extreme speculation based on the one thing it can store and why I think that makes it able to counter investiture and power. Aluminum is a blackhole to investiture of any kind except Identity and I think there is a reason for that an aluminum twin might be able to tap into. Check out my fan fic but don't expect it to be strictly Cosmere accurate to what is proven. Most twins would be most effective in a support position to any armed conflict. Since you guys are more often on the side that Roshar is the nearly inevitable victor in a conflict I will leave the creative uses of the surges to you. It seems most of the surge applications that are quoted are brute force applications which from my perspective aluminum can both neutralize and resist. Of course we can predict developments since we have the ground rules for the system. Not all of them since some of those ground rules are vague. One of those developments is that we cannot predict how or when the conflict will start. Neither side can reach the other in force at this time and Radiants are particularly stuck for now. We do know Scadrians will have space travel which may be what finally bridges the gap en-mass. Also at this time any world except Roshar, Rosharan's lose, but Scadrians have full access to both their tech and magic on any world even Roshar. At their tech level now they would have to have access to and to cross the CR which severely limits Radiant retreats to the CR. Let me give you the formulas for weight increase. Stored weight = 25% of total weight for a day which I estimate to be 50 lbs. I didn't break it down into hours. compounded weight uses the initial 50 lbs for 1 day and compounds it 5 times which is 10^5 * 50. That equals being 5 million lbs for 1 day once compounded that is tappable. He would have 25,000 times his normal mass for an entire day (when would you need to be that heavy for an entire day). Compress the time and you lose some mass, but extend the time and you keep it all. All compounding would have similar magnitudes.
  5. Welcome you two. Elantris and Warbreaker are definitely better read before Oathbreaker. Elantris is on the same world as Emporors soul Also once you have done both Elantris and Warbreaker you may want to read Arcanum unbound (edgedancer, 11th metal and secret history are in it). My first Brandon book was in the Wheel of Time then I read Alloy of Law and was hooked. I had to go back to Final Empire. I have a hard time getting enough of Wayne, and Lyft and to a lesser extent Wax, Shallon, Vin and Kaladin. My favorite book was Edge Dancer, then Alloy of Law. Once you finish the Cosmere the Reconers and Legion are great. I haven't started the Skyward series and am a little miffed that he did that Series before finishing Wax and Wayne. Enjoy your time here.
  6. The thin black haired man sat watching the boy in the school yard from across the street, pondering why he was so glum. He stood and sauntered across the dusty street toward the boy. When the boy looked up he smiled and greeted him. The man asked the boy "why so glum my boy?" The boy responded "its my metal birthday." "Well that doesn't make sense" the stranger said. The Boy said "everyone expects me to discover my metal tonight, but I just know I will fail. All the others say so because no one has seen a hint of what it is." The man said "here let me give you a present for you birthday. If none of the metals they give you work at least these will make you feel a little better. From where I was sitting I could see you have a lot of potential so long as you stay your true self." Then he handed the boy a pair of silvery bracers and a bag of powdery metal. "Now don't lose these or sell them because they are worth more than money can buy to you." "Who are you?" the boy asked. The man answered "just a man blown like Dust before the wind." After school the boy went home for his metal party. When he walked in the door his Father noticed the bracers and asked "Kagi, where did you get those?" "A man at the school gave them and this bag to me so I wouldn't be sad if nothing works at my metal party." He answered. Now a metal party is a Terris tradition where the child is exposed to various alloys to see if they have any metal talents. They try to store attributes in the metals and see if they can burn any metals. Many parents can only afford the most common metals for the party so sometimes it may be years before a child discovers their metal art. Kagi's father was a poor potter so was in that situation himself. So when he saw the silvery metal he thought to himself if the metals I obtained don't work we will try those and if they don't work selling some of that metal will enable me to get some of the more expensive metals to try. At his look Kagi asked "was it bad to let the man give me these for my birthday?" "No Son. I think those might be lucky metals. What was the man's name?" the Boys father asked. Kagi answered "he said he was dust." His father said "lets get ready for the party." Later that evening the guests were all gathered around the table after the cake and the games looking at a row of metals and dust set out for the metal ceremony. One by one Kagi tried on the bracers and tried to store attributes followed by swallowing a small amount of metal dust and trying to burn it. There were eight on the table. First Kagi tried Iron with no success, then came steel, tin, and pewter with no results. The next four, zinc, brass, copper, and bronze also failed to work for him. Finally his father took out the silvery bracers and dust saying try these. The guests stared in disbelief. One man asked how they could afford it and Kagi's father said a stranger gave it to them that day. Kagi put on the bracers and concentrated then his eyes went wide. He said "I feel a hole inside them." When he swallowed some of the dust his he gasped and said I feel something burning inside me. The crowd cheered. One of the old men said you have a rare gift and one not normally discovered since aluminum is very expensive so be sparing with it. Then one of the youths jeered yeah old man but it is also useless since it doesn't do anything. Over the next hour as people filed out to go home they debated. Finally once they were all gone his father told Kagi never to take off the bracers and to always be ready to swallow the dust if someone tried to take it. Keep the bracers covered in public and they painted them with his acrylics to hide the material explaining that they were very valuable so bad people might covet them.
  7. It seems obvious to me that we read the same WoB's and whatever and interpret them different. I will address Aluminum one more time. When a person burns aluminum metals disappear. When a person uses a hemalurgic spike of aluminum powers disappear. It doesn't grant or steal any investiture or power to any recipient either allomantically or hemalugically. It is unique in this being a reactive metal that is entirely inert in almost every way. It has been described as an investiture sink which would indicate that investiture or power goes in but doesn't go out. How or why it does this hasn't been explained yet, but any aluminum fired with the intent that it be a hemalugic spike would if it penetrates to blood wipe all power. I interpret that as being stormlight in Radiants, but it could mean they lose their Radiant status permanently since it says power not investiture like it does in allomancy. In addition some have said that it must pierce the heart, but if it did the Radiant would be dead regardless since the aluminum would stop the heart from healing thus killing them. The Radiant who gets hit with an aluminum bullet, shrapnel or other spike would likely lose all their stormlight and would not likely be able to use stormlight until it was removed. Skybreakers and windrunners would fall from the sky if they were flying, edgedancers immediately stop being slippery, and no surges of any kind would work because their would be no stormlight to power them. It is not anti-investiture it is the scientific counter investiture metal. Lurchers and coinshots do have ways to maneuver in the air regardless which direction they are lashed. I didn't say Wax was bullet proof and I have my own opinion of why that is, but his bones and muscles were stronger to handle the increased mass. By definition increased mass in the same volume is increased density, which would enable that person to have potentially massive strength particularly if they could compound. It also doesn't mean the density needs to be uniform and probably isn't. If Wax were storing 25% of his weight every day from age 20 to 60 and never tapped it his maximum weight stored would be almost 1.1 million lbs if he weighs 200 lbs. If he were an Iron compounder after compoiunding 5 times he would have 5 million lbs of available weight and could be 25,000 times denser for 1 day. He would probably be more than bullet proof if he wanted. Depending on how long it takes him to burn the metal mind and store the weight to compound say 1 hour (I think it is much faster) in 1 day (initial storeage time) and 5 hours of time he would have that available. We know Wax's bracers hold hundreds of thousands of pounds because he has tapped that much. Forgive me for saying this. I don't think many of you have really thought through the potential inherent in the metal arts. It seems as if in the Future Scadrial and Roshar will be at a stalemate in terms of power so there must be something that some of you are overlooking when saying that the contest is uneven and Roshar is likely to win. Right now they can't have a conflict because neither can leave their system in force. Radiants and Fused can't travel at all and Scadrians have difficulty reaching the CR (Some do or no Ghostbloods). I have given many specific examples look back and see. No I don't think those examples have been disproved I just got tired of trying to convince you since obviously we disagree which doesn't make either me or you right or wrong, it just means we will need to wait and see who is right if any of us are. I have even given creative Radiant examples of potential power uses that have been ignored recently. I appreciate the effort you have taken I am just not convinced by your arguments enough to change my opinion of what I have read in the Cosmere. I don't ignore the author I disagree with what you think the author is saying of the principles he has presented and those not explained. He is intentionally vague. That's right lightweavers and Truthwatchers have the potential to permanently kill Fused with their surges since they do have the potential to create anti-voidlight through the illumination surge, they just didn't know it was possible until after RoW. One of the things I proposed a few pages ago.
  8. I just don't agree with your interpretation of how the Cosmere works and I don't see any more point to trying to explain myself to you. I think Scadrial has more potential ability to scale up production well in excess to Roshar. The reason is that to produce the fabrials is limited to a few artisans and by the number of available spren at any given time. Scadrial has the potential for ramped up assembly lines using machines and is not limited by the need of artisans and spren. You make a good point that Rosharans can make materials but there are major downsides to soulcasting material and it is a very gem and stormlight intensive process. If you run low on the appropriate gem soulcasting becomes very limited, and those who do it eventually kill themselves doing it. Your following statements seem to contradict each other: "These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not: Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners) Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials) Turn off investiture (no such effect) Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead) In metallic arts it does the following Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer. Feruchemy, store Identity. Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy)." it is because it says remove powers instead of neutralize investiture in Hemalurgy that I fear it would be more permanent and if removing investirure and removing powers is not turning off or neutralizing investiture what is it? I still assume that the power aluminum removes from Radaiants is stormlight. Since Hemalurgic Aluminum only does one thing it is reasonable to assume any of the 100's of bind points will do. Note Hemalurgic aluminum gives not attributes at all it only takes. Since spren move away from aluminum in fabrials it is not unreasonable to consider they might do so in almost any other situation as well, but I will agree it cannot be assumed as to whether they will or wont. Feruchemists build up their investiture in their metalminds and in the case of compounders they are filling it with Harmony granted investiure instead of storing only their own attributes for later use. They are fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy and doing so with what amounts to an ever increasing pipe like from a straw, to a garden hose, to a fire hose, to a water main and beyond. It is hinted that their may be a way to compound allomancy with feruchemy but we don't have any examples or descriptions of that yet. So yes I understand that metal only opens the investiture pipe for use. Metalminds must have incredible capasity since Wax could store tens or even hundreds of thousands of pound of weight in his. For that matter they seemed nearly limitless. Wayne's limit wasn't his metalminds but how difficult it was to store health. As for aniti-investiure https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lights#Anti-Lights at this point officially it says: Other anti-Investiture[edit] It is unknown whether hybrid Lights and Shards outside of the Rosharan system have anti-Investitures of their own. Khriss states in the Ars Arcanum that, though long theorized, the anti-Lights are her first evidence of an anti-Investiture. So since Scadrian investiture is not accomplished through or powered by light it is unlikely there is an anti-investiture or at least not one easily producible by another system. You wouldn't want to soulcast anti-matter because the instant consequences would be very destructive even to the caster. The very air would react to it in exponential explosions while trying to create it. And it would likely release anti-light at the same time in all directions. Perma kill everyone in the area including the soulcaster. Besides as it says any other anti-investiture is pure speculation at this point. So for now Anti- void or stormlight is the only anti-investiture and would serve like kryptonite to Rosharans. Scadrian weapons really could be 200 times more effective and lethal than Medievil weaponry (Swords, sheilds, pikes and such). A civil war era battalion(Scadrial) with repeating rifles, machine guns, and artillery would decimate whole armies of Arthurian soldiers(Roshar). Most Radiants would also be vulnerable to those weapons before they could strike and could be detected so surprise is not on their side. Some potential metalborn could go toe to toe with any Radiant at any oath and with battalion support would devastate virtually any army Roshar could field. Numbers don't mean you will win. A good example of this where Tech trumps numbers is in the David Weber Series of Safehold, and they start at roughly Renesance tech planet wide. Sorry we will just need to agree to disagree that you can't use right frequency of light to kill Radiants. Stormlight is light and nothing any of you has quoted has proven otherwise to me to the contrary from my perspective It further supports my opinion. Fair enough, but if he tapped weight he would potentially become a battering ram until the lash ran out and could mitigate any fall by storing all of it during his fall. Plus when Wax changes weight/mass he said his speed changes as a result. BoM on the dance floor with Khriss. Someone who could compound would have even more control and would be even more of a threat. The rail car scene in BoM shows that Wax's durability does increase with his weight to compensate. He was more durable when he pushed the car from the tracks than when he was on the car because he could afford to tap more weight there and did. One of the things he needed to be careful of on the car was crushing himself by pushing to hard when that wasn't a worry on the tracks.
  9. The Sybling was one spren that made up the tower. A highly advanced spren at that. If your fighting for survival you would spare no expense. Gems from fallen foes would be valuable on Scadrial as well. It may not be an earth air ship but it is still mechanical they just use allomancy instead of fossil fuels. There may not be an equivalent anti-investiture on Scadrial. We are talking about destructive interference in waves and metals have no such thing. Anti-metal investiture is pure speculation with no supporting evidence like you complain I was doing. Seekers detect the rhytms of investiture. No you don't need to hit the heart for hemalurgy. Each power has a specific target to where it must be hit and there are dozens of them especially when the metal can have potentially many powers like steel or iron then you must hit the person in a very specific place and put it in the recipient in another specific place. Some do require the heart, but that doesn't mean aluminum does, for that matter it is from my perspective that anywhere will do for it like some others do. An aluminum hemalurgic spike doesn't transfer any powers to others it is entirely an anti-investiture spike. I suspect that aluminum handcuffs will be used in Era 3 to contain invested individuals with tiny spikes to pierce the skin. Ishar is a bondsmith herald and practically a walking perpendicularity. The Highstorm is likely to be honors perpendicularity, but what Dalinar does is an unbound bondsmith perpendicularity where he connects the 3 realms. I wouldn't bet on that since Shallon got hers from a scadrian based organization. When are you going to come up with some possibly interesting uses of Radiant powers instead of just rehashing the same old things? I even gave you some ideas earlier in the conversation, but you ignored them in favor of criticizing my Metal art ideas instead. Even Khriss in BoM thinks that twin combinations are potentially very powerful and interesting, why don't you see it? Oh and also in BoM Wax did get much stronger and more resistant to damage when tapping his metalmind to push the train car as indicated when he pushed from the car and couldn't push as hard because he couldn't tap as much weight so was both weaker and more likely to crush himself if he pushed as hard as he could. He was only an Iron Ferring so was very limited in how much weight he could store. Really though I am surprised you are still responding to me because you said you thought this topic was over. If your responding because you want to convince me your opinion is right know this no matter how many times you say the same things it wont convince me because when I have looked up your references I didn't interpret them the same as you. So I am afraid what it comes down to for me is that we just disagree and we will need to see what happens next.
  10. When you spend hundreds of pages arguing fantasy war contests and physics in the Cosmere and refuse to let the subject die even if others tell you that your wrong much of the time.
  11. Dust smiled his hair bleeding to black and said, "there is a conflict coming and you are now one of Harmony's swords able to both preserve and destroy. He is preparing another to use on your home world, but he needs you to help guide other worlds starting with this one. I also need you to keep an eye on things here while I take care of other business and by the look of you I think you might finally be up to the task." "what about this ghostblood assignment the girl gave me", I asked. He said, "they have their place but seem to be misdirected here, you might guide them toward withdrawing for now. At least until the situation is resolved here. Once you finish with that go to the Ukalaki peaks there is an enemy agent expected soon which could prove very dangerous. I think I will have a word with T on my next trip and remind him to reign in his people here." The rest of his visit was spent catching up and sharing news of home.
  12. War is expensive we haven't been discussing the economics of a possible conflict. Aluminum will block any healing ability, repel the spren in their gem heart and potentially interfere with whatever investiture makes them function. The thunderclast would be demolished long before any metal arts needed to be used, but if it got in range leechers might drain it of the investiture that gives it life or just use leecher infused allomantic grenades for the purpose. Flak is simply a timed explosive so Scadrial does have the tech to produce artillery with that capability and lots of bullets would have the same effect. Bye, Bye most Radiants along with all other soldiers. Scadrial also has mechanical flying machines which further implies near 1920's tech. Though the air ships might imply an even higher level of tech. One of the premises of this discussion is that Rosharan's and Scadrians are able to engage in the conflict and Scadrians are on Roshar so they had to get their through the CR somehow, but for now we know invested Rosharans cannot travel the other way. Surges can be countered by Aluminum and Anti-light though what each does is different. Scadrial also has the metal ability to quickly determine the Anti-light weakness. Oh and I do keep in mind surge limitiation and possibilities, but since the discussion in gerneral favors Radiants I see no need to ellaborate on Radiant advantages (which in my opinion many have been undersold because their advocates seem more concerned with down playing Metalic advantages instead). Aluminum turns off, neutralizes, and blocks investiture. If used with the intention of being a spike it does the same thing as it does allomantically. Wipe investiture, and perhaps more completely that leaching. One interpretation of what it does Hemalugically is to remove the ability to use investiture going forward. Almost like it breaks a person's connection to investiture. Personally in the case of Radiants I think it will do to stormlight what it does to metals allomanically. Erase it. if instead it removes a persons ability to use investiture period it would be very devastating. I interpret that when Navani says stormlight acts like liquid it is her way of saying it has wave properties just like regular light does. Light in the Cosmere is invested just like metal. One example of this is White Sand. It does require some means just like metal to be used though. Coppermind does have links to current relevant Primary sources for its articles. The WoB is full of outdated material. We don't know where the Scadrians arrive on Roshar. The peaks are possible, but so is anywhere the Highstorm touches during a HighStorm (it has been theorized that it is Honors Perpendicularity while the peak pool is Cultivations). I will grant Scadrial has potentially smaller forces, but their weapons enable much more wide scale killing and their best weapons will work where ever they are. Coordinating between realms only takes 2 Seon's. Even though the forces would be split the majority would still be in the PR as with Scadrian weapons they would need fewer to defend the CR based on the limit of forces that could be brought against them. Jasna could be gunned down long before her soulcasting in the CR would become a major threat. The range and accuracy of windrunners is much less than that of guns and artillery. Besides in war why would you use a gun of any kind in the open if you didn't need to.
  13. A decent line up though it seems to me that Scadrian Tech is more like just pre WWI Since they have cars. The range of artillery also seems short for the period since artillery range could potentially be miles and or thousands of yards depending on the piece. Also using aluminum for projectiles and shrapnel would be effective against all but 4th oath Radiants and Someone mentioned thunderclasts. Oh the flack used against Windrunners and Skybreakers could be Aluminum too. Thunderclasts if they could even be used off system would be vulnerable to heavy artillery since stone is still brittle and they are a huge target making them easy to hit from far away. You make a good point that if the fight happens on Roshar Scadrians would be at a disadvantage, but also at this point it would need to be since Radiants are trapped there. Bronze mistings could guard against sneak attacks by Radiants or Fused since they are natural detectors and Tin eyes could detect other attempted sneak attacks. I don't think enough Windrunners would get through the machine guns and artillery to make that much difference. All the Scadrian Tech can be transported into the CR so fleeing to CR to sneak and Attack would leave those who do more not less vulnerable to attack, or do you think that all of the tech would be moved back to the PR on Arrival? The ultimate detector from Scadrial would be a Windwhisper/Sentry. They would be nearly impossible to sneak past. Scadrial is at the point where it could quickly ramp up its industrial production and innovation to produce arms for war, but the same can't be said for Roshar. Jasnah is only one person and could be overwhelmed by numbers and detected long before she could strike, don't count on the CR there would likely be troops there as well and She would be without Plate or Blade there. Again Aluminum based weaponry would be lethal especially in the CR against Radiants of any kind regardless how much stormlight they have. Heavy weapons and artillery would drain a lot of stormlight to stop Radiants, but it would be much simpler to just use Aluminum based weapons and Scadrians do know they are effective against invested individuals. High explosives targeted at Thunderclasts to open them to Aluminum poisoning from a long distance would be effective and since they are so large they would make relatively easy targets for heavy artillery. Heavy artillery would probably shatter the stone Thunderclasts are made of. I still think most of you are missing the potential of metal arts especially @Frustration, but I concede that I can't convince you of what I think is possible. Oh I actually trust the Coppermind more than WoB's since it seems to be the current distillation of the WoB's. One thing about the WoB's is that any quoted could be out of date, but the Coppermind is kept more up to date and has the most current understandings of how the Cosmere works because it is constantly being updated as we go forward. So I guess you could say I reject the request not to use it as reference when possible. I would admonish each of you to examine the Scadrian powers and consider how their combination might prove useful in a conflict. True not all of them would provide direct one on one martial potential, but if we are talking about a war many would provide balance altering support for it even on Roshar.
  14. For now Scadrial has weapons which would decimate Rosharn troops en mass and affect most mid-level and lower Radiants so even with a population advantage it might not be enough for Roshar. Also for now Rosharan Magic is restricted to Roshar so Radiants and Fused are only a threat there. We know that will change but don't know what will enable that ability to leave. No Roshar doesn't really have grenades. What they have are 2 lab accidents where as soon as they intentionally tried to combine voidlight and anti-voidlight in a gem. This is not something they are able to weaponize into a grenade at this time, and I suspect we wont ever see. What I predict we will see is Scadrian's using anti-light weapons against Rosharans at some point in the future. I don't dispute the potentially destructive force of light anti-light explosive, just the practicality of creating or using one without blowing yourself up. Brandon has been quoted saying that Aluminum is scientific anti-investiture tech and Anti-light is designed specifically to give the kill factor for Rosharan magic. There may be no analog to anti-light in any other system because no other system is wave based that we know of. both you and @therunner have both said that Fused will come back if killed by Aluminum and that is true, but in virtually every part of the Cosmere it has been shown to counter investiture. Fused use it even though they have been faced with high oath Radiants at some point of each conflict so it must be effective against Radiants even ones potentially in Shards. It seems to disrupt all forms of investiture except storing and tapping Identity for some reason. That disruptive influence is even used by Navani. Shardplate is made of spren made physical, and lesser spren have been shown to have an aversion to Aluminum so there is a small possibility that aluminum weapons might affect it especially since Shard armored Radiants are not new and yet Fused still use aluminum weapons. I am sorry but Rosharan tactics are medieval so even though they have had wars the pike line is entirely inadequate to use against more modern weapons and tactics. The more modern weapons and tactics from Scadrial are well beyond Rosharan experience. Even most Windrunners and Skybreakers could be wiped out by flack shells especially if they group together. We will just need to agree to disagree that stormlight can be countered by the right frequency of light. Navani's experiments to create anti-light that succeeded were into wave mechanics not fluid mechanics. I still think weight control will have an effect on gravity lashings, but I concede it might not have the effect I thought it did. Not sure this WoB supports your point (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569) given that Wax says that his physical abilities seem to increase to compensate for increased weight as shown by some of the feats he accomplishes. Oh and Sazed needed the extra weight to brace his pewter strength which also comes with extra mass. That makes me wonder if he could have stored some of that increased weight from his tapped strength into his Iron mind for later use. He might then be able to store some of the increased speed in steel from the interaction of greater strength and less weight. Of course he was no warrior so that may be why he never thought of that. Compounding as described by Brandon allows exponential increases of investiture with nearly unlimited potential. Exponential increased quickly reach extreme quantities. In the case of the Cosmere the increase in investiture is stated as 10x. So 1:10, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1k:10k, 10k:100k, 100k:1M. In six compoundings you have 1Mx more investiture than you started with and that would take seconds to minutes to accomplish. How much time do you think it would take at that rate to pierce the Realms? Once you are near that degree of investiture maintaining it would be easy. I give it a day of compounding effort at most. No one knows how Nicrosil-F works so my guess based on what we do know is as good as any. Again we will just need to agree to disagree because neither of us can prove the other wrong at this time. I am going on the assumption that any investiture of any kind applied to a Soulbearer becomes personal investiture. I view Soulbearers (to use blood terminology) as universal Receivers and Thug's as nearly universal donors of investiture. Pewter seems to be able to donate abilities to nearly all kinds of metal minds. Sparkers paired with almost any allomancy that increases their perception and with pewter would enable a highly capable individual. The increased mental speed would enable quick evaluation and increased perception increased information to base responses on. With pewter where the person has enhances all around physical abilities you get nearly unbeatable martial artist/warrior and pewter during less active periods can be used to fill the metal mind for when it is needed. Steel would also create a multi useful pair. With bendalloy they might be able to accurately fire from a time bubble. There are many other less obvious metal combinations that would provide support advantages in an actual system clash. I still view Nicrosil compounders like the Peter from Heroes of the Cosmere. Expose them to any investiture against them and they have that ability in spades to use moments later and they can enhance allies while overwhelming enemies. I don't expect to convince you about how Nicrosil might work. From what I hear we will see how it works in the next era as it sounds like one of the main characters perhaps the main character will use nicrosil.
  15. The only known alloy of Atium was malatium, but because it is a God metal there was the potential for 16 alloys including atium itself. Unfortunately after Hamony took over unless he makes more it is no longer an option except perhaps Marsh's supply. Did you notice that the armored person was very heavy. That indicates to me that what ever method he used to leave Roshar the Stormlight became very heavy. I agree that it seems like there is a stalemate. Thinking about it I believe that Scadrian Magic lends itself to group cooperation, while Rosharn magic lends itself to individual combat. For example I view it like the contest between an Orca and a great white shark. Individually the great white is virtually the perfect aquatic predator and can likely take a single orca though not everytime, but orca as a pod are the apex predator capable of hunting anything in the ocean. Between Scadrial and Roshar population may be a factor, but we really don't know how the populations stack up because we only get a limited view of each and for now Scadrians have WMD's. Explosives, machine guns and such. The Radiants might be highly resistant but those in a normal army are not. I found the Steel causing burn rates to increase in the feruchemical description of steel. So a Steelrunner can enhance any metal they are capable of burning potentially more than even a Duralumin burn would do. I was a bit pressed for time yesterday so couldn't think of where I saw it. If a person is heavier then it indicates that gravity is acting on them more. Gravity lashings have a mathematical correlation to weight and greater weight manipulation requires more light. A single lash can be rendered zero g by doubling a persons weight and will expire sooner. You were right I was confusing cohesion and abrasion (I think that is what you were comparing), but cohesion might also be affected by changes in gravity. A suddenly weightless person wont sink into soft stone and suddenly much more heavy person might be able to crack any stone they have sunk into and since they have the physical abilities to handle the extreme weight and that is without any metal to pull on. Elend's solution to keeping the Atium from Ruin was to burn it, so I presume TLR could have done the same with all the metals so no investiture pools or mines could collect. Even if he couldn't have done it himself he could have fast tracked Scadrian metal arts into science that burns it to do that. Kondra with only 2 spikes could be controlled by a sufficiently powerful emotion allomancer or group of them though in era 2 and beyond you might want a nicroburst in the team to have sufficient power. Emotional allomancy is also particularly effective against broken or unbalanced people. Not infallible. Paalm only had one spike which is why Wax shooting her with another worked. Her allomancy came from the fact it was Trellium. I am also drawing from how Lord Venture reacted to Vin Rioting and Soothing him massively. Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate. F-steel effect on allomancy would be like Duralumin and Vin's range when burning Duralumin was greater as shown with her steel jump across the valley. When she burned both D&S she could detect more metal at a distance. With more power comes more range. The limit would be a sufficient anchor to use that additional pushing power and the physical strain on the body. Vin had pewter to counter some of that strain. I did say the wall would probably break because of the increased weight though if the person were patient they might run the stormlight out faster. I never said it would be easy for a compounder to open a perpendicularity only potentially possible. Nightblood might become satiated before consuming all the investiture from a compounder. We only have 2 examples of compounders, TLR and Miles. TLR extended his life 1,000 years and could dominate whole crowds of thousands with just his presence. Both he and Miles were all but un-killable capable of even surviving decapitation. TLR may not have even tried to open a Perpendicularity because his purpose was to protect the world from Ruin at his core. Other group enhancing metal arts are F-copper, F-zinc, Bronze, Tin, Chromium, Nicrosil, F-Duralumin, Electrum, and F-gold, and compounds of most of these. Nicrosil compounders might be particularly useful in a team. Potentially they could store any investiture based attack against them and compound it. The could also enhance any team members powers, and finally over charge any enemy's powers to overwhelm and drain them. They might almost be like Peter from Heroes. Imagine if an edgedancer healed them and they stored some of that to compound and use later. Of course even Terrismen aren't sure how Nicrosil works so that is me projecting possibilities. I also view Scadrian's like the Federation and Rosharan's like the Klingon. No I didn't forget that Shardplate blocks emotional allomancy I staged it in the CR where there are no shards even for upper oaths. I am not sure how well fabrials would work their either. Medallions would work since they don't rely on Spren. I think Hemalurgy even though it is a metal art is a bad idea. Though hemalurgy might end up being the Scadrian cyborg equivalent or used in conjunction with being a cyborg. I see many Rosharan powers being being used to their utmost to be hazardous to any allies on the field. Division used to the extreme could hurt their individual soldiers as much as the enemy for example. In addition Rosharan's honor encourages duels, champions, and individual combat, where most of what we have seen from Scadrial is crews, partners, and gangs working together. I think it is almost a mindset thing as much as a power thing. Yes there are powers from both that work better in groups and or individually, but I think their cultural mindsets incline them one way or the other. All the Rosharan powers you mentioned seem to be used individually, one on one or like with gravitation in small groups. We also haven't seen many Savant effects, but some of the most severe were a soulcaster turning to smoke or vines growing out of another one. Of course the savant affect with Radiants and Metalborn takes longer.