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Everything posted by TheHidelSubldies

  1. To be clear I agree that it was just an awful comment for her to make. It baffles me that she would say such considering she's aware of what they have been through. Like I said, I interpreted it more as Shallan saying anything just to hurt Kaladin in that moment than her deep seated resentment of any and all darkeyes. I mean she has darkeyes in her service and I didn't notice them complaining that she treats them horribly or that she forbade them from leaving her service. At worst she fails to notice that she sometimes casually takes advantage of her position as a lighteyes, something she's made aware of by Kaladin in the chasams and it's something she expresses regret over. These examples are pointing at a much larger problem with Vorin culture in general yes, though I will point out that other lighteyes are guilty of this as well to some extent (Adolin, Dalinar, Navani) and as I mentioned earlier, once Kaladin made her aware of this mistreatment Shallan agreed that it was wrong and apologised, though this is all together a much larger issue. Oh I would never imply that Heleran was a hapless victim or anything similar. Kaladin had every right to defend himself/avenge the deaths of his men which he ultimately did but that doesn't change the fact that Heleran was still her brother and that his death casued her pain, pain on which I believe, she later acts upon even if subconsciously in her interactions with Kaladin. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's right for her to lash out like that but she does have a reason for doing so. I digress though I seem to have taken this somewhat of track. Sorry for that. To be brief, I thought she continued to regress even further in RoW, which I found tiring to read. But I am somewhat hopeful for her future sine her arc ended on a optimistic note. I also hope we get to see more of her brothers instead of solely being leverage for the GB's to hold over Shallan.
  2. I'm a bit confused by this one. I'm not disputing that this comment was very inconsiderate of her, particularly because at that point she was made aware of how horrible it was for the bridgemen (Kaladin told her all about it in the chasms I believe).Yet I also think it's important to note that it was made in response to Kaladin berating her and her choice of Lightweavers in training (Gaz mostly). More Importantly however I interpreted Shallan's snapping at Kaladin a subconscious reaction to fining out the truth that it was Kaladin who killed her brother Heleran, This is a important detail I think a lot of people are willing to overlook and I don't understand why.
  3. Strongly agree with this. After all the trouble the Honorspren went through at the trial to prove their point, it seems all too convenient for them to not raise the issue again and simply fall in line. I didn't expect them to start another trial or something tedious but at the very least voicing their concerns in the final Shallan chapter, as a way of shoving that her killing Testament had an effect on not just her but their current predicament. I do think that it's unfair to hold her solely accountable especially since she was a child and the Cryptics did go to her willingly, but to not raise the issue made for a very rushed conclusion to the whole arc. I wish this was an isolated incident but as it stands, this isn't the first time a seemingly important detail in the story is brushed under the rug for the sake of convenience.
  4. I suppose my biggest criticism of Shallan's arc in Row is that the reveal of Testament, while as a standalone felt very powerful, lacked a bit more development to be as effective in the grand scheme of things. I still think that her killing her parents is much worse, so a scene explaining how much impact her bonding Testament had on Shallan would have provided some much necessary context, and as a result added more weight to when she inevitably breaks said bond. Apart from that, I feel like she was snubbed of her payoff. After confronting this truth and integrating Veil, she's whisked away only to reappear when everything is resolved to provide some closing thoughts. Shallan confronting Radiant about Ialai is brushed to the side. Her telling Adolin, talking with Pattern, reconnecting with Testament is all handled off-screen. Her conversation with Kalak would have been nothing short of fascinating but I suppose I can understand why we weren't present as it may have revealed too much crucial information about where we might be headed in the next book. Still though, a bit of a let down. Formless also being just a lie really didn't endear me to her. She's surrounded with people who love her, care about her well being, from her friends, Pattern, her fellow Lightweavers and Adolin (he's lieteraly Rosharan Jesus at this point), so the idea that she was willing to abandon them all and left them devastated really made me feel like she's taking them all for granted. Shadesmar as a whole felt like an afterthought to me so I guess this too affects any arcs that were a part of it. I liked Shallan a great deal in WoK, and was intrigued with her in spite of some of her more questionable decisions and the fact that her story was so removed from the immediate action. In WoR I continued to like her though she did start to show some annoying traits, but given that we find out the extent of her trauma it was understandable. OB however was where she started to lose me. After several rereads, her story in OB just leaves me exhausted. I can understand her avoiding confrontation and after everything she's lived through, it makes sense. Understanding why she makes certain decisions doesn't mean I approve of said decisions or find it any less frustrating when they end in more pain. This basically continued in RoW. Other than that, as of OB, more and more important conversations seem to be happening off screen. Some plot points going so far as unresolved even to this day Shallan still hasn't confronted Kaladin about her brother Helaran, though I'm more annoyed with Kaladin at how completely he's forgotten about it TBH, and speaking of her brothers I was hoping we'd discover more about them, and ended up really disappointed that they were effectively reduced to only being leverage for the GB's to hold over Shallan but that's getting a bit off topic. All in all, her final statement that it was "Shallan's time to soar" left me feeling optimistic and hopeful about her future endeavors.
  5. @Bliev I hear you and appreciate you putting up with my rambling Yes this mostly, I guess I figured that, what with him having this much exposure we'd have a clearer view of his thoughts. Agreed. Both fathers seem to have a strict view of how their sons should live their lives and then show a kind of cold disapproval when said sons opt to walk their own paths instead.
  6. That's beautiful, truly an inspirational story, thank you for sharing it. I guess in my rant I sort of went off the point. It is comforting to know such people persevere. I'll try and convey my thoughts more clearly. Apologies english isn't my fist language. It's not so much can they exist, but how?. I said I don't mind him being the person he is in the books. Merely that I wished for his journey to be explored more. I wanted to see genuine distraught after Kholinar because surely it would be normal for him to have such a reaction, even if for a moment. I wanted to see more of his frustration during his conversation with Dalinar. Because surely it would be normal to feel such when your own father doesn't see you for who you are and claims that if you don't live up to his expectations, you are destined to become like Taravangian (I thought this was rather cruel on Dalinar's part). Yet his response was to "shove the seething knot" down. How many times can he do this. How long can he repress his own frustrations, worries and problems. I don't believe that this is a healthy way to deal with trauma for any one, be they burdened with mental illness or not. I know form personal experience that attempting such in the long run is a recipe for disaster. So in the end Adolin to me, comes of as a lovable walking, feel-good plot device who's human complexity will never be explored which I believe is a shame. Again I want to preface by saying don't mind the destination that he seams to reach, but I rather wished that his journey was explored more.
  7. I'm afraid I disagree with this. Every person experiences hardship differently, they learn to deal with stress, loss and trauma differently and not always in a healthy way. I think people tend to overlook all the hardships in Adolin's life when comparing him to Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, as they are admittedly rather extreme examples. Never the less if we were to consider all the events that may have negatively impacted him throughout his life, I can't help but marvel at his ability to remain so unfazed through out the story. So let's give it a shot. He loses his mother at an early age (he later finds out that his father unintentionally caused this). His father turns to alcoholism as a result and distances himself from his sons emotionally. His brother is ridiculed for his illness which I don't doubt bothered Adolin as well. Then by the end of TWoK he, along with Dalinar is abandoned on the plateau and left to die by Sadeas, a battle during which a significant portion of the Kholin army is eliminated. We're told that among them were friends of his I believe, though we never know who they were. Throughout WoR he is mocked by Sadeas and is shunned by the remaining nobility due to Dalinar's policies, one of whom is his "friend" Jakamav who later betrays him in his duel against Relis. At the battle of Narak, even more of their army is decimated and on top of that he loses his Ryshadium Gallant, which as of RoW, we know is not just a loss of some pet, but the loss of something truly special. All this leads to a boiling point when Sadeas taunts and threatens his family, which causes Adolin to snap and kill him on the spot (he's shocked by the act himself but keeps it hidden). OB comes around and Adolin is still quiet about the murder. He goes with the strike team to Kholinar, where his cousin (the king) is killed, his home conquered and his people enslaved, in other words a complete disaster. Adding to all that, the fact that he is the Blackthorn's son, so I think it's fair to assume that there's a certain amount of pressure thrust upon him especially after failing at Kholinar. Lastly he's nearly killed before they reach Thaylen city. Now finally in RoW he discovers the truth about his mother's death. Kaladin advises him to put Maya aside so that he would attract a living spren and become radiant. Dalianr encourages him to do the same and subtly reprimands him for Sadeas's murder, claiming that if he strays from being the perfect son he perceives Adolin to be, he'll end up turning into Taravangian 2.0 (I thought this moment was similiar to Lirin calling Kaladin a monster tbh.) Throughout Shadesmar he's told by other spren that Maya is dead and that he's wrong for believing otherwise. He is then made to stand trial for humanity as a whole failing spren in the past. Throughout all this he's also worrying about Shallan struggling with her accpeting her past and balancing her alters. I'm sorry if this was tedious to read but I hope it get's my point across, after all that he's been through and is still going through, I can understand the need for a character being the source of optimism but when considering all of the above. I am nothing short of bewildered. How can such a flawless person exist, without on the rare occasion, having a moment of doubt or weakens. These moments are hinted at at best, (for example in OB he gets quiet when he's put in charge of the investigation of Sadeas's murder and both Renarin and Shallan notice) yet the consequences that these moments should have on a "normal" person are never fully explored. Let me be clear I don't object to him reaching most of the conclusions he does in all the books, but the way he reaches them, that is to say I wish his journey (the execution) was more fleshed out and believable. You say it's a good thing he doesn't feel random bouts of jealousy, vengeance, or sadness. Again I fear I must disagree. It's not random to feel jealousy when you believe that the person you love is falling for someone else. It is perfectly human wanting to punish a man who has on several occasions tried to kill you and your loved ones, and promises to do so again. It is perfectly human to feel sadness and grief when faced with the loss of a loved one, or loss of life in general (I'll note it's one thing to feel such emotions and another thing to act on them). Even though I like his character a great deal, my main issue with Adolin is often based on the fact the his humanity is often sidelined for the purpose of furthering the plot or enabling the growth and development of others. The result of that however is him lacking depth by comparing him with the remaining characters, both primary and secondary. His reactions are limited to being only what the plot demands of him, not what would feel natural for a person who has lived and experienced all that he has, unlike the other characters in the story. I understand that this is done deliberately but I can't say that this does the story favours, if anything at times it's almost immersion breaking at how flawless he is portrayed and how effortless and convenient all his accomplishments are.
  8. Thank you so much. I've tried to express my grievance with this particular part in my own thoughts, but I realise now that my attempt was clumsy by comparison. Therefore I'd like to defer to your more eloquent and well worded response instead. The way Dalinar and the Coalition just casually gave up on Jah Keved as if it weren't worth more consideration was disheartening to say the least. Furthermore it's just hard to believe that an entire country was so easily duped into switching sides, without there being an ounce of resistance even in spite of Taravangian's meddling. Surely there would have been ardents and other people of influence both lighteyed and darkeyed, who would have objected, if not openly than in the form of an underground resistance. Redin, the illegitimate son of of Highprince Valam who appeared in Shallan's flashbacks and was present at Taravngian's ascension to the throne of Jah Keved is one such figure that comes to mind. Instead he just disappears from the story completely after WoR. Regardless, surely there would have been some who pushed back against this betrayal. At the very least they could have attempted to covertly warn the Coalition or something. That the past strife between Alethkar and Jah Keved is presented as explanation enough for an entire nation to unanimously switch sides, felt a bit like a hand-wave attempt to me unfortunately.
  9. Things I liked. Kaladin taking care of the other mental patients was very touching and exactly the thing he needed, honestly would have preferred more of that than the action packed fighting all over the tower, though I ended up enjoying that as well to a lesser extent. It's bad enough to watch him struggle with depression but then to be so persistently tormented by outside factors... give the poor man a break already!!! The Tien flashback as a standalone was also incredible and really served as a breaking point for his continued growth and development, what with him finally being able to heal the brands on his forehead and lay down this burden that he's been carrying for far too long.The only thing I thought was missing was a moment where his parents and he ended up mourning Tien together (and Lirin apologising to Kaladin for being unreasonably hard on him). Navani's arc was an unexpected surprise. Her dynamic with Raboniel was fascinating.and highlights just how rewarding it can be have a complex villain. I understand why some would think Navani was being naive when she helped develop anti-voidlight (and anti-stormlight as a direct consequence), but I saw it more as Navani's desperate final attempt to prove to Raboniel that coexistence is an option in spite of their long history of strife. Navani's confrontation with Vyre at the end reminded me of him killing Elhokar in Oathbringer just as he was about to swear his first ideal. The crucial difference here being that Navani managed to speak the words in time unlike her son. I did find the technical details to be a bit too excessive but it's a minor complaint. I definitely agree with people saying that RoW was Navani's book. Rlain and Dabbid were a great addition and though I would have preferred more of them, the few moments they were given were excellent. The Taravangian twist at the end left me in a bit of daze honestly. Part of the foreboding feeling of the ending stems form the fact that we already know what Taravangian was capable of doing as a mortal (albeit a mortal with Cultivation's boon/curse). Now, as a vessel to a shard (Odium no less), it fills me with nothing but dread knowing the lengths he's willing to go to "save" everyone. The epilogue only enhances this, what with Tod being able to one up Hoid. It drives the point home that them not knowing they are dealing with and entirely more dangerous beast. The GB involvement and conclusion felt satisfying to me and will prove to be a interesting adversary in Shallan's quest to find Ba-Ado-Mishram. Along with some of the revelations about Thaidakar and his "real" identity. Things I didn't like or have mixed feelings about. The Shadesmar segment felt too detached from the rest of the book. While it contained powerful individual moments like Shallan integrating Veil and Maya's speaking at the trial, the impact these events should have had on the surrounding characters felt lacklustre like, Shallan's converstaion with Kelek happening off-screen, Shallan revealing her secrets to Adolin aslo off-screen. Adolin concluding now with irrefutable proof that his devotion to Maya is the right thing to do in spite of Dalianr's (even Kaladin's) encouragement to abandon her and become radiant. Off-screen. Why? These moments could have been so impactful... I feel like when applying "Journey before destination" to Adolin it comes of as more like Adolin already having reached his destination, it's just that everyone else is struggling to catch up with him (readers included). I don't mind him being a source of optimism, but I too feel it's important to show in his journey moments of doubt.and frustration for his accomplishments to have weight. As it stands these moments are, at best, briefly hinted at (his conversation with Dalinar, his reactions to the other spren not believing him about Maya), but never explored to the point that would make him seem just as human as the other characters in the series. I don't doubt their success with the honorsrpen will have impact later in the story, but given the 10 day time limit they'll be cutting it really close, that and I can't help but wonder how the honorspren would react when they found out that humans helped develop a weapon that can now permanently kill spren, not just leaving them as deadeye's. Shallan's brothers. Honestly I was hoping for them to be somewhat relevant this book, but they were such a non entity, if they died, I doubt anyone would even notice or care. Meanwhile In Dalinar's camp. I didn't so much mind the slower pace here, but i think it was a bit of a missed opportunity to not show what the dustbringers and sykbrakers are capable of in the field. Similarly I was a bit bothered about how well everyone took the defection of Jah Keved. Everyone seems just so nonchalant about it. Suppose it wasn't so unexpected but still you'd think the Coalition would express more remorse over a whole country and it's people being written off like that. Dalinar's experience with Ishar was both interesting and highly disturbing puling spren into the physical realm (good thing Adolin saved Notum or he might have ended up as one of the honospren that Dalinar discovers In Ishar's camp) and stealing bonds but felt like it's sole purpose was to set up events for the next book without establishing anything conclusive. The Parshedni flashbacks were decent, but IMO, unnecessary as they didn't establish anything new. Can't help that the page-count invested here would have been more useful in other parts of the book. However that final Eshoni chapter was wonderful and a fitting farewell to her character. Finally Vyre. I didn't like it. Unlike Raboniel, any complexity he could have had was pushed to the side in favour of him being a one-note villain. The only thing that intrigued me slightly was the moment Navani's singing striped him of voidlight, which left him overwhelmed with guilt after killing Teft, exposing him as nothing more than a fraud and Odium's tool. It's bad enough that he resigned himself to be apathetic to everything, but then feeling the need to drag others down with him for no better reason than to prove a point made me lose any sympathy I may have had for him by the end of OB: Not a compelling villain, not even an anti-hero, just sad miserable Moash. If Sanderson does decide to redeem him it's going to be extremely difficult after this book.
  10. Moved the post to full book reactions thread, since it seems more appropriate there than to intrude here. My apologies OP.
  11. Maybe hate is too strong a word to use in this regard. I was definitely frustrated with him from part one, mostly because of the obvious similarities between him and Kaladin, and yet in spite of that they couldn't understand each other. When Lirin was being shown his new workspace in the tower, he only seemed elated after Kaladin informed him of his forced retirement. I don't doubt that Lirin wanted only what's best for his son but it goes to show how little that helps when he didn't bother to truly see and acknowledge the type of person Kal has become. In a way it almost looked like Lirin was willing to show fatherly affection only when Kaladin behaved the way his father wanted him to, not when he was being himself. Even when Kaladin tells him that he's suffering from depression, he seems unwilling to accept it (likely because he's afraid of the fact that this is a condition a surgeon can't treat). I can understand why Lirin is so determined to avoid any type of confrontation. Beyond his vow of do no harm as a surgeon, he's convinced that him rebelling against Roshone is what caused the death of Tien (and for a time Kaladin too I believe). However that doesn't mean I approve of him emotionally shunning his son. His stubborn refusal of putting in the effort to simply try and understand his son, let alone support him is frustrating to say the least. Hesina chewing him out in her interlude chapter was necessary, though I would agree with some posters that she should have done so much earlier. In the end I do agree with her though, it's not about being proven right or wrong but about seeing and understanding why Kaladin fights, which I believe Lirin does realise in the end. Overall I thought this conflict was handled well. Lirin's struggle felt believable to me. On a side note part of me was intrigued to find out a bit more about Hesina's father and his conflict with Lirin. Might be yet another reason why Lirin frowns upon fighting so much. Would love to find out more about Kaladin's maternal grandfather. I'm not convinced we'll actualy see him in book 5 but maybe he'll make and appearance in the later half of the series. Sorry if all this comes off as repetitive. I'm certain other posters have pointed out similar things but I just wanted to add my two cents.
  12. Adolin's conversation with Dalinar before his departure for Shadesmar left me feeling somewhat hopeful. Much like Kaladin, he's having a difficult time communicating with his father, but sadly there wasn't much of a resolution in this particular father and son dynamic. He's still very capable and easy to like, but whatever struggles or difficulties he's having are either only mentioned briefly or resolved off-screen. I get that he's more a side character but frankly side characters with less page time than Adolin feel more layered and developed at this point (bridge four for example). There's potential for some great moments of character development and growth but BS never seems to fully utilise those when it comes to Adolin which I think is a shame. Him reviving Maya was a powerful moment but again it felt less like Adoiln's arc and more like Maya's which isn't necessarily a bad thing but just another example of missed opportunities In fact the whole Shadesmar section feels completely detached from the main plot of the book, so much so that if someone told me that the Shadesmar segment was originally meant to be a standalone novella I would believe it.