Lemiltock

I disagree, It certainly made the fight easier and far less bloody but I still disagree it makes the fight back impossible, or even improbable, given kaladin and the heavenly ones. I agree, I thought I had said this. But for the sake of clarity I misremembered navani speaking this out loud. No it wasnt just Honors tune, it was the harmonised tune. Which Navani learned to do by both her and Raboniel starting at the two pure tones and both harmonising. I do not see how Rlain could not harmonise with the sibling, especially given the sibling knows the harmony tune from their end and Rlain has the musical ability inherent (or perhaps learned). Harmonising music is not a Navani exclusive ability, and singers have been stated throughout SA to be more in tune with the natural rhythms of Roshar. I do however think Navani is a better fit for the sibling. A singer has a greater ability with music, as is shown several times (they even talk to different rhythms). Navani is a greater scholar, I agree. It is not impossible nor unreasonable to assume that a singer would be able to harmonise with the sibling who was singing the already harmonied version of cultivationlight, than a human and fused both coming together with their respective un-harmonised tunes. I touched on the harmonisation above. As to pushing enemies out, I dont think its likely and as you said the plans where the reasonable retreat. However its within the realm of posibilities. But lets explore the difference between only Navani, vs only Kaladin. No Kaladin means, the sibling is fully corrupted (first node) all the radiants in the tower likely die (no kaladin to distract moash, although he may not have shown up), victory is not even a faint possibility. No Navani, Kaladin defends the first node, the second node is unlikely to be found, Kaladin doesnt get psuedo flight, but the rest of the resistance plays out much the same, maybe slightly more in team radiants favour. The final battle approaches, no sibling to back up, so Kaladin now has a much harder fight, but mixed with the heavenly ones is likely able to push the enemy back and either escape with most of their lives or possible push them out and either deactivating the oathgates, or killing moash at taking the honorblade. Their chance of success is slim yes, but given the heavenly ones, additional signers and human resistance there is a chance they can push the enemy out and hold the tower, giving time for the scholars/heavenly ones/singers to workout how to help the sibling. When we break it down like this it is clear that while Navani was integral, and saved significant bloodshed, it was Kaladin who saved the tower and its people.

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case. Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done. Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case. Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done. Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case. Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done. Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case. Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done. Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

I do mosrly agree here, they couldnhave potentially pushed the fushed out and worked on repairing the sibling. But the sibling is required for the tower to be usable. This i dont agree with, she listened in on the conversation between navani and the sibling. While it is not explicitly stated this was likley by overhearing navani repeat out loud the location. The act of restoring the sibling would have likley been beyond kaladin due to the soecific knowledge that was required. However given kaladins connection to rlain, the heavenly ones and even showing venli honor he had the most chance of getting scholars help in discovering it (had navani not worked with raboniel). But this is not what i mean when i said kaladin saved the tower. He did several things that i think are nore significant than the actual fighting itself. He inspired the people of the tower and gave them hope, he showed honor to the fussed and listeners(singers?) Which eventualy pushed them to swap sides to defend the defenceless radiants, he defended and destroyed the nodes, and then after getting his plate he would have led the combinded resistsnce, listeners and heavenly ones against the rest if the tower and pushed them out, allowing for the sibling to discuss and for team radiant (which now includes several listeners amd fused) to listen/remake the sibling. This is not to say that navani achieved nothing, i think she did, she just didnt save the tower, beyond the litteral remaking of the sibling. She didnt give hope, she didnt put up a resistance etc etc. But the point i was trying to get across is that navani made mistakes and I want to see her attone for them, most likley in a more personal "i will do better" way than a legal "off with her head" way. Even if she was the sole reason for team radiant winning, journey before destination is a radiant oath, and certainly some orders take this as the ends dont justify the means.

I disagree, she got the knowledge of tones affecting it from the other scholars (tubing forks) and the joint light from the tower light. Did raboneil help her yes, but she was not necissary. She rediscovered how it was made. So my wording was slightly off but my intent was on rediscover. The connection, should have been considered by her, she considered none of the consequences of working with the fused. This is part of my issue. She did not do the research to prevent raboneil from corrupting the tower. As you yourself has stated, Navani knew that Raboneil was lieing to her about freeing people or leaving the tower. Navani litterly researched the weapon Raboneil used, she doesnt bear all the responsibility thats true, but some of it. No im blaming navani for working with the enemy instead of not. But it wasnt, navani wasnt working on it knowing it was different from anti light. Infact once she realised this she feverently worked on anti light to prove herself. Navani did not mnow that combinding light was different from antilight until they had war light. Except we read her motives, brandon litterally showed us her decision making. She didnt think ohh this will save people, she thought and it was presented to us on paper about how she could be a real scholar and prove herself. So while in real life I could not, the book expressed her motivations to us, so yes I can state she was driven by her desire to prove herself to raboneil. The use off capitals does not strengthen your argument or reduce mine. She litterally gave them the method for creating antilight which is not of limited valur to the fused. Even if it was, she knowingly worked with the fused with no altruism in mind (she knew raboneil was lieing as you have stated) Perhaps, she worked with the enemy, and gave good groundbreaking research for nothing more than the hope, she might get a chance to help. This is still a poor decision, and if she was going to try this you dont give away cutting edge research, why not work om her lifts, or even having worked with the enemy, getting to warlight, they think antilight is now impossible stoping here? She made several poor decisions and they only worked out because of plot. What did you say earlier about fact and opinion? Fear being present does not always make it a motivator, nor do we see navanis actions driven by fear. You have also stated navani knew raboneil was lieing, that she knew neither the tower nor her people would be freed, what altruistic reasons where shown in the book? All the reasons navani gave herself where selfish, we get to see this decision making take place. Did she still do the research without being pushed? The most fight she had was when she told her scholars to not work properly. Then once she was working alone she worked like a good scholar and didnt delay her research at all. Saying ohh look a bee, while a house burns behind you isnt fighting to hide it. This was me pointing out how I navani would hold no blame in what the fused did with her research, not that I think it would have remained away from the fused. What, did you read the same book? She didnt stop working on the research raboneil wanted her to work on until it was complete. This is litterlay like saying i found my keys in the last place I looked She did not desplay a single thought throughthe entire process that maybe this would misslead the fused. We get to see inside her head, and your attrbuting thoughts and alternatives that did not show uo. Odium had thousands of years to do this and didnt. My moneys on him not changing his mind. But sure its possible. Did you read this section? Navanis entire thougjt process was about how great it was to let go and only worry about her scholarly persuits, no distractions to take her away from it. She never once displayed a thought hinting at there being any other motive. Kaladin, the heavenly ones, and a collection of people. Kaladin by this point had plate and his full powers. I didnt say better i said he saved the day far more than navani did. He provided hope to the people, he fought back, he defended the nodes. Navani sat in a room and did research for the fused. Hidden again in a small room that was closly watched. This is like when a kid hides something i their room from their parents. And she didnt even write it across multiple notebooks, encode her research or store it not in her usual book. She basically didnt hide it What, you say shes smart to miss lead before, but smart to give in now? Given what she knew of antilight she should have fought tooth and nail to either not hand over or destroy her research. With what dagger? She needed the dagger from raboneil which came after the antilight. Did the guard, this is opinion, we saw neither the report nor the thoughts of either the guard or raboneil. You mean, if the guard had not reported to the person thats been reported to all book? Attention is what she wants isnt it? Divert raboneils attention from other matters? But even so, i ment never talk, from day dot, refuse go lift water dont give up the secrets to kill a god to the enemy So, then the fused wouldnt have it. I didnt say it was a great choice, just the better choice. You can attribute this to navani, when it was more likely him failing to convert kaladin (which seems to have hurt him as much as failing eith dalinar did) and yet cannot attribute any of the consequences of the research navani directly completed and handed to the fused. This is a huge double standard Thats not a plan, when this blows up one of the fragments will goes through her eye and kill her. This was a smart but brash attempt to make the most of the situation and ome of the smarter things she did, it was still not a plan. Yes we dont know the mechanics, but its also not a garuntee that with raboneil dead it would have delayed things, afterall it was raboneil stopping the radiants from being killed. Seems like a good trade though, a few days/weeks wait for all the radiant lives I do not think its a necissary risk, and under the circumstance do not think I could hide the notes. This is the issue navani thought she should do this research while under the fused, I do not think she should have made that choice The entire sequence of navani feverishly working on antilight where she comments on not having other distractions amd how wondeful it is to finally be just a scholar even if only for a minute, i do not have a digital ocpy of the book or I would cite it, however she not once during this thought, ohhh i can use this to save people, she infact thinks almost the opposite when she says she doesnt need to worry about other things. I understand how probabilities work, lets explore it a little. Lets assume that each "coin flip" moment had a .5 chance of working (this is likely smaller but benefit of the doubt. Navani risks everything that the first moment goes un noticed by .5, the first two moments going un noticed iss now .25 (.5x.5) the thrid is .125, the fourth js 0.0625. Etc etc, so after only 4 coinflip moments navano has 6.25% chance of them all working out. This is evident by you disagreeing You cant, but ehen the choice is do nothing and hope or perform research for the fused and hope. Option 1 likely results in less negatives. If the scales had started to tip, say raboneil had threated peoples lives if she didnt help, and help properly, then perhaps navani eould have a leg to stand on when shifting blame. But thats not how it happened. You mean the fused that csn read as has been shoe infront of navani several times by this point. They didnt need to reverse engineer, this would be if navani had created antilight gem and they found it, and then by examining it descovered how it was made. They instead interpreted and followed her nites to create it. Sure, its not an easy win, and the sibling helpped, which required navani. But she did not save the tower, even if she had it does not absolve her of giving odiums forces antilight

Did einstein work for the nazis? This is not a great example, ive stated several times my issues it not her discovery, its her discovery under the fused. She did not need to do that research when and where she did. And doing so lead directly to the fused having access. So again, this is about what she did more so than its effects. She developed cutting edge research for the fused, which lead to this discovery directly, not some implication, or someone else furthered it, directly. She directly devolped the method for anti light while working under the fused and under no duress which lead to the equivalent of a nuke. As opposed to you repeated missing my point, the issue is the when and how, she applied almost no subterfuge, and less counter interl. she was shown multiple time that robinel could not be trusted and yet, with no altruistic intentions, she feverishly worked on developing antilight to prove she herself to raboniel. Gaslighting is not blatant lieing, you are using the wrong term here. Gaslighting is where a person changes things and lies about them to make you doubt reality, it is very serious and not just one personlieing to the other. Even so, you rourself have stated navani knew rabonirl was lieing to her. Why then did she willing perform research for her. Navani had no altruistic motives after her small delaying tachniques where pointed out. So to break down the 4 motives youve given Desire to prove her self : this falls under her ego Hope : for what? That her research would lead to raboniel leaving the tower, a fact she knew was a lie, and a poor one at that. She had hope that Kaladin would do something but did that really motivate her to do the research. I see her hope also as fueld by ego. She thought her research would do something, this is ego again. Fear: sure she was affraid, but when reading her chapters fear did not seem a motivator Desperation: the only desperation i saw in her motives was when she was feverishly trying to finish antiligh to prove she was a real scholar and impress raboniel, this again is ego I will admit my wording may indicate that in saying her only motivd is ego. I do not think this, a better way of stating this would be Navani had minimum if any atruistic reasoning for completing her research with raboniel. So she knew she couldnt hide her notes would be found, as the fused have proven to be more than casual observers. Putting that asside, if she had not written the notes down it would have shown some fight. Like when she asked her scholars to reorder stuff. Its not the research itself, i think the advancement was incredible. Its the research while working under the fused that was not a smart move. She developed the research for the enemy. So you do have a problem with Navani working with the fused, thats all im trying to say. She made a mistake and needs to wear it. That doesnt mean i want to see her flogged or legally persecuted or ostrecised. But she made the wrong choice, several times with significant lasting consequences. Hopefully if I was in Navanis situation I would be able to not make the same mistakes as her, and if I did, id be able to identify I had, and make amends on my own. If i was unable to then hopefully someone else can point them out. The only way we move forward is by fixing our mistakes. No im saying Navani didnt work on her research with raboniel for any altruistic purposes. That she have not done any research for them and that she sailed passed several redlights and at least one natural stopping point (war light) She didnt stop after that mistake though did she? She still thought she could out smart the fused. She also didnt know warlight wouldnt be antilight ahead of time. She knew once it was made but she knew antilight was possible, and that raboniel wanted it, yet she worked eith her all the same. Navani did not though, she had the opportunity to stop at warlight, to leave that at a see our investiture does work together. But instead she needed to prove herself and in doing so she gave odium antilight. In saying this I do not think Navani could have provided counter intel or lead raboniel astary, the way she realistically could have done better is by not helpping the fused with research, plain and simple. They where clearly monitoring her. The fused listening didnt need to understand her notes, just that she was doing research, its a what 3x4 room not much space to hide stuff. And if your raboneil, whats the first thing you look for after you know your caged scholar has been doing more research, the notes. If Navani had not written the notes, they couldnt have found them. As you said the fused monitoring her likely didnt understand the research and so Navani could have refused to give up information. But she didnt, the fused monitoring knew she was doing research and raboneil found the note book with what 30 seconds of not even looking? If raboneil, who had clearly asked the fused guard to report on anything Navani did, hadnt been aware of what navani did and what slept in? This is a tenious argument, you dont flip a coin on information this vital. If she didnt have it written down they couldnt read it, if she hadnt done it at all, they wouldnt know it existed. Who cares if its suspicious, what does it matter if she suspects you know more if you never give her the information. You dont need to act all cool like james bond, not talking is almost always better than trying to distract. No i dont think the research shouldnt happen. I think it shouldnt happen while working under the fused. She should have waited until she was not under the fused. Simple as that. You dont take a coin flip on such important information. Also, if the plate did not exist it couldnt be found. You know hoe the fused cant get the information, if it doesnt exist. That was an option open to navani, to not research while under the fused. She chose not to. Luck, an immortal being surviving an explosion is luck? Because el didnt bring back the pursuer early? Yes navani didnt know about thr second, but she hailmaryed, when instead she should have not given them that information to begin with. No she didnt, she minimized her odds, by working kn the research, if it doesnt exist the chsnce of you giving it away is 0. Having decided she would do the research she then didnt even break apparatus or destory her notes (which she shouldnt have taken in the first place). Navani acted like a child that had eaten all the chocolate and after the fact wanted to hide it, there was no pre planning to hide her research, she did it then tried flimsily to hide it after. Working on what raboniel wanted her to is not counter intel, navani did not know the results before, and she knew antilight was possible (which raboniel did not). This is not counter intel, it is infact just normal intel. It is repetition because it has been presented in bith the books and your own responses. Her desire to prove herself was the biggest driver of her character, this is clear. Is she a comex character with emotions and multiple drivers, yes, but did she go inter a feverous state to find antilight because of something other than her desire to prove she was a true scholar (see ego), no. Your unwillingness to see this is as irritating for me, you talk around the topic give coinflips in Navanis favour all in an effort for navani to not be responsible for her actions. Which would be the case if she had altrusitic intentions, a point i feel i have articulated in several different ways. But not agreeing with you is different from me not seeing other poitnd of view, or can i accuse you of this same thing? Yes it is, and navani being willfuly ignorant doesnt make her not human. But it is a bad idea, and she shouldnt get a pass because she was wilfully ignorant. That is the entirty of my point. You dont see how she could have done nothing? I never said it was, i said her crime wasnt her character flaw. She wrote them down, where they could easily be discovered, she may as well have tought the fused how. Many people would consider guns and the things weve done eith them, horrible. So i would disagree with you here as well She saved the sibling. Who inspired the people to resist, who showed honor to the fused so they felt they could defect, who fought back against the fused at every turn, worked on freeing the radiants amd protecting the nodes. Kaladin saved the tower, well before he swore his 4th oath. She litterally wrote down the steps she took, reverse engineering would be like if she didnt write her notes down in the book. And it is her actions that are being examined I think her journey will be interesting and hopefully different from dalinars. Despite me disagreeing with her choices i did enjoy her chapters and think she can certainly grow and recover from them. Which is what i would like to see happen.

So she thinks it can kill a god, the greatest most powerful thing in existance amd doesnt think it will damage anything else or have any major blowback. Afterall its only a god why would it hurt anything else, she didnt care for thr conseaqences so she didnt explore them. Again, can kill a god, why wouldnt she think it could hurt spren, or people or just about anything. on the scale of power gods sit mountains higher than anything else, she didnt want to think about the consequences because she didnt care. She wasnt being gas lighted, thats not what was going on. She was lied to, and fairly blatantly, not led to believe she was going crazy. How worried was she in her rush to find anti light? So worried she didnt write down her steps? So worried she didnt not do it? She didnt care about the consequences and this is the issue, she did stupid rust because she cared about proving herself, not about the costs, not about saving anyone, it was all ego. Yer i agree, taking notes can be helpful, im not saying she shouldnt have for her research, im saying she shoukdnt have because she was being monitored, as had been shown time and time again. She chose to instead of trying to even be a little sneaky to be blatant, tryinf to hide the notez after isnt an excuse, she shouldnt have written it down to begin with, it was stupid. And hide them, in what 3x4 room, eith one door, while on guard night and day, she couldnt hide whispering at the far end, why would she think she can hide her notebook, she didnt even use a different book, it was the same one, good job hiding it navani. You see no problem, with Navani choosing to worn with Raboneil to prove she was smart. If she knee Raboniel was lieing then she knew actually doing reaearch for her would not pay quid pro quo. So why then did she not to poor research, lead her astray, divert her. Again it was ego, she had no altruisti intentions, and the ones Raboniel said to her they both knew where lies. How does helping with her research and giving away the siblings nodes slow down raboniels plans? They where bith being watched, the fused st the door likly reported how many steps she took nothing wasnt monitored, she should have worked that out early and not repeated outloud the location of the node but shes an idiot who was too caught up in her fake modesty to look at the situation and act cautiously. She could have done alot of good instead she thought she was great and it led to her giving multiple pieces of vital information to thr enemy. Again, being monitored closly 24/7 shes going to get caught Better to not engage in conversation, you cant accidentally give key information if you dont say anything. Wishful thinking, destroy the plate or better yet dont come up with it and they cant get it So hope? Ahhh again hope, but this time with some treason thrown in. Her alternative, refuse. You even wrote hope in this one, so you see these are all hope, no plan, no strategy, the great navanis counter intel boild down to put the book under other books amd hope. I would do nothing for raboniel. There are several ways Navani could do better, and doing nothing is one of them. She could have actualy given counter intel (ie bad research) but nope Navani decided to do research for the enemy becauss shes got a big ego I call it Navani being willfully ignorant, shes an adult, shes understands actions have consequences, she didnt consider them because she didnt want to. And ill be clear here, Navanis work could have resulted in only good things for the good guys, and nothing for the bad guys and she still made the wromg call. When you are captured by the enemy you dont devop new research for them. Especially when she was only tempted eith knowledge, no threat of violence, no torture of her subjets nothing just ohh hey Navani, i hear your smart... Sure theyre normal, but not when traded for what she gave, in the situation she was in, she chose to further her own pursuits and everyone be damned she was showing this fused who was smarter. Overestimating herself is a serious character flaw yes, but her crime was following those desires where it hurt other people, if she had worked this all out previous to the invasion and they found it after, then she doesnt bear responsibility. But it was while under close watch by the enemy, and at their request that she researched what has turned out to be the greatest weapon Odium now posseses I disagree, she intially worked with her over carrying buckets because of pride, and sold it as counter intel to herself. She then when given the option of counter intel, did not give counter intel if she had, or at least tried thrn maybe you could argue otherwise, but she didnt. She didnt misslead, she didnt even whisper the wrong location for the node to send the fused on a wild goose chase. Nope instead, she worked on really cutting edge research while under the close watch of the fused. She could have worked with Raboniel because the wind blew east through the hall when asked. The fact she was tempted by kmowledge and then didnt give counter intel is very telling to her motives. She then later thinks ohhh well i stormed up, but its not my fault, god has a plan and he works in mysterious ways, this is her avoiding responsibility for what she had done. The main driving force for why she worked with Raboniel was to for the knowledge and the consequences be damned, this is shown over and over as she continues to provide good research to raboniel after shes been caught out. So shes not responsible for anything because the big bad fused lied to her and really its not her fault anyway because honor has a plan for us all, and i didnt mean for her to use it as a weapon. Thats a bit hyperbole, im suggesting that what she did had direct consequences (which it did) and that she bears some responsibility for those comsequences despite her intentions (which i dont think where altruistic either). She developed the method for anti light, wrote said method down and mat as well have handed it to raboniel on a silver platter, she bears some responsibility for that. To pretend that intentions is all that matter is a child view of the world, and to suggest im blaming her on the damage a highstorm does is supreme hyperbole. She had control of her actions, and the actions she chose lead to Odium getting antivoid light this is not me using hyperbole or extenuating circumstances, if Navani had not worked on research for the fused rhey would not have anti light, and likly wouldnt for a long time after the good guys did. She had choises, she chose bad, she needs to bear that responsibility. No we are wuite excellent at killing people as history shows. That doesnt take away from the horror that is a nuke. Nuclear weapons are largly a topic for elsewhere, but their only job is to cause massive multi generational distruction, so yes they are bad, one of the worst things we have ever done. How did she undermine raboniel, what steps did she take to misslead, or redirect, or thwart. For the most part she happily worked on her research and repeated aloud everything the sibling said. I can see more than one way. And responsibility is often grey, i see several scenarios where Navani was forced to do the work under actial duresss (you know like torturing subjects infront of her until she complies) but it didnt take that, and given her willingness to help, and lack of a fight she bears considerable responsability for the consequences of her actions. She activlry worked with the fused on research. That alone, regardless of consequences, is a huge mistake. She took a promise of knowledge to start doing research for the enemy. She didnt even try to pass fake research on, or just not write down the meathod to creating antilight. She made several repeated mistakes. Was there not a guard at her door 24/7, did they not hear her whisper. Just because the sibling couldnt tell, doesnt mean they didnt. As is clearly evident by the fact that navini hid nothing on multiple occasions. If her only screw up had been to repeat the location out loud, which why at all would you, then maybe you could chalk that up to being out played. But after that she continued to hide things childishly. Ohhh they wont look at any but the top disk despite this one being scratched, why would they read my note book, ill put it under some other books itll be super inconspicuous. Just because the fused wasnt standing next to her doesnt mean she wasnt being watched. And when under guard its always best to assume youre being watched

So she created something that can kill a god, for an enemy and didnt think ohhh you kmow what are little pieces of gods, spren. She was tok cought up in being praised to worry about the consequences of her actions. She also wonderfully, after being tricked several times, writes down the steps to make anti light. You mean, she thought i could kill the entire shard but not the little pieces of one, this is willful ignorance at best. Ahhh so you see the problem your just choosing to ignore it. I dont think she was conned, if she had been id be more sympathetic, she knew raboniel was lieing, she had a gaurd 24/7 and was shown multiple times to have been watched and listened closly and yet she still thought she could hide anything, this is why she is an utter fool. Raboniel could have conned her, but she didnt need to, she tempted her with knowledge and Navani selfishly jumpped at the chance, she worked with the enemy to further her own wants there was zero altruism in her intentions or actions. She could have done this by working on lift fabrials or perfrcting her flying ship, she worked on the anti light because she was intrigued and trying to peove her self. They are the reasons presented, you even acknoledge that navani didnt believe the altruistic reasons. So no this is mot a false dichotomy, she made choices based on her desire to look smart with the promise of knowledge. You are responsible for your bad outcomes, i dont know what world you live in. Quite often people with good intentions will hurt people, the consequemces are not always "punishments" but you hurt a friend unintentinally, and they still hurt, you still bear that responsibility. Intentions mean little when compaired to your actions. This is also ignoring the fact that Navani had no altruistic intentions, she wanted to prove herself, show she was great and smart, the promise of knowledge sold her. So are her intentions even really good? yes the existance of nukes is a horrible thing that takes no authority to be able to answer, im sure the people of heroshima are super greatful they exist. But that is seperate, the crux of the issue is she worked for the enemy, with no altruistic intentions, and the result of that work was a devistating weapon. A good dead does not cancel out a bad dead, and her little acts of sabotage pale in comparison to her litterally writing down the method for creating antilight while under close observation after raboniel showing her she was untrustworthy and under close watch (they listened to her whispers) on several instances. Also i dont think Navani is fool because she got bested, shes a fool because she didnt learn from her mistakes, and the first time was at best risky.

She didnt leave her door open though, she was acting recless, a crime wasnt commited sgainst her she commited a crime, while not know it would be a crime. This is not an excuse They are still legally and morally liable for the damage they caused, intent or no. Its not about relative age its about the ability to understamd consequences, this is why in most places its illegal to imprison people under a certain age they are of an age where their brain has not developed this ability navani is well past 25 her brain has fully developed and as such her relative age plays no part in her ability to make rational decisions. Ahh so working under their watch is avoiding colaboration? She if intentionally or not worked with a fussed watching over her shoulder. All her previous work had been taken, why would this not when she was still going through the fused for material and working with a guard. You mean, if raboniel had not been continually looking over her experimental request? Or listening to the reports from the guard at the door? It wasnt a chance encounter, she was still being watched, still asking the fused for equipment etc etc. Her actions, under different circumstances where not unethical thats true. However where and when she undertook those actions was unethical, as was the outcome of them. Afterall good intentions pave the road to hell. So navani didnt believe the altruistic reasons given to work with the fused and she did anyway? Either she was ignorant and a fool, or she was not. If she didnt trust raboniel she worked with her for her ego, if she did trust her she was a fool. In either case she activley worked with an immortal enemy, with the results being the equivalent of a nuke.

To quote, Yes you talked about your health through it, but weather by intention or otherwise, you implied kaldin wasnt strong because he had help, and that others are able to smile despite trauma. This implication is as much an argument against kaladin as an explicit one. However I feel we are getting no where and I wish you the best with your health.

Quite litterly the law states ignornace is not an excuss, to pretend otherwise is a fallacy. Nor can she claim ignorance, a driver while not knowing they would kill someone, can still kill someone and is still responsible for that action. If she waa tricked/manipulated or a child she could claim this, but she wasnt/isnt. So she didnt do this in a place where she had collaborated with the fussed, nor where she was under watch by said fused? Ohhh she hid them, in a closed room while under watch, good idea, it took the fused how many seconds to find the notes? If she had never written it down, she would never have them stollen. She wrote down the steps while under watch from the fused, she may as well have instructed them her self. She wasnt swayed by more knowledge? To impress a great scholar and show she was as smart. She did, and what did Navani focus on, was it desire to give her husband the knowledge that drove her to so feverishly complete her work and show it off to the fused?no it was quite clearly yer ego. And even on top of that, she didnt stop when at first she found out she was being lied to, no she doubled down, not once but twice. She made several choices, not one was for anyone but herself. (While captive pre she did order people to surrender to save lives and was a good call)

I do not think i twisted your argument, nor did i ignore your personal take from it. I outlined why i disagreed with the argument raised against Kaladin, and how I thought people over looked when Kaladin is happy or puts aside his struggles. I also further explained that we see inside Kaladins head, where as we dont see others struggles, to quote robin williams Robin Williams There is no doubt robin laughed and was happy he was also sad and struggling theyre not mutually exlusive. I also in my first line said I was sorry for your struggles and not trying to diminish your experiances. To be clear I disagre with your arguments, not that reading it is bad for your mental health. I sincearly hope you have the support to get through the darkness and I am sorry if you took my response as a diminishment of your feelings or health

And the Sibling doesnt have that choice? Radiance is achieved in partnership with the spren, with both sides growning from it. I do agree the sibling initially chose due to death being the only other outcome, and Navani played a big hand in this being a likley outcome, but if Syl could break the bond so to can the sibling.

I do perhaps underplay this, but it is still a passing thought at her failures, and it took several for her to reflect. I do, however, like that she didnt just roll over, but a short thought on how shed done wrong is far from acceptance, which is shown further in the next quote. This quote here i have more issue with, shes rationalising her mistakes, someone had a plan, someone made me do this, theres a gos with a plan amd therefor i bear no responsibility for my actions and there must be more good than bad. This is not her taking any responsibility, at best shes being naive at best shes openly lieing to herself in either case shes shirking her responsibility by assuming someone has a plan and that plan included her working with Odium. Yes I think she did the right thing from here onwards, but the alternatives for her here are roll over or do something, this shows her worth to be a radiant, but not really an attonment for what shes done. I hope there is, I dont want her ostracized or thrown out, but I expect some people will take issue with both the working with a fused, and the results of said work. I can also see some blame for teft and phendorana from bridge 4/windrunners, maybe along the lines of it being mentioned. I also see some people either not caring, or forgiving (see dalinar), and im hoping Jasnah at least in private calls her out in it. Firstly, the sibling not hating her has no bearing on her moral choices or if anyone else can hold a grudge to her, teft didnt hate moash in the end, should we all just forgive him? But thats an asside I think she can resolve whats happened, and my issue was not that she cant come back, to use dalinar again who came bacl from burning a city, but that she needs to come back, because she made poor choices do to ego and selfishness that have significant consequences. Ignorance is no excuse, either ethically or legally. She may not have know exactly, but she knowling worked with the enemy, one who had already shown she was craftier and smarter than navani, and yet she persisted. If she had come up with that research seperatly, and raboniel had come across it during their captivity thats different, but she chose to work with the fused, on something she knew was dangerous (it blew up for her scholars) with little regard for the consequences or even keeping it a secret (hiding the plate under another isnt really an attempt, especially considering she also wrote down her entire process). Her working with the fused for selfish reasons is as much an issue as the results of that work, neither of which she can truely claim ignorance of even if that was a real explination.

I am sorry for you struggles and please dont take my response to the rest of your post as me trying to diminish your experience. There are a couple of problrms with this argument, the first boils down to this is not the trauma olympics, just because one person can do something, has no bearing on another person buckling under the pressure, nor should it be considered weakness. Also, do you honeatly think that everyone who endured the Holocost or any trauma for that matter, just grins and bears it? That there arnt days they cant get out of bed, sure they might not tell you about it, but look at Kaladins parents reactions when he says hes like them, theyre stunned, how could Kaladin feel dispare, hes so strong. We get to see inside Kaladins head, and that shows us a lot more than others. The other side of this is your missing where Kaladin does stand up, he even says, that man is dead but I can become him one last time for these people. Kaladin while suffering torture from Odium, the oppresion of the tower fabrial, lack of food, sleep and support, as well as, depression and PTSD stood up and saved the day. If thats not strength before weakness I dont know what is.

I just want to chime in as an aside, the sibling is a they/them not he/him. As to the topic at hand, do other radiants really get a choice? Syl started the bond with Kaladin, yes they had to further it together, but at its crux, Syl chose him. I think Navani has a long way to go, as does Dalinar. But the oaths they speak are apart of strengthening that bond, if Navani isnt worthy she wont progress in the oaths, or even break the first Oath (we didnt see this on screen did we?) and cause only minimal harm to the sibling

Im unsure if your trying to be witty here or not. In either case, no I dont think extreme punishment, however, she did work with a fused, and give them a weapon. Dalinar was upset at Kaldin for not killing a fused when it saved a soldiers life. She doesnt need to be removed, or even lose her bond, but that also doesnt mean i want it swept under the rug and ahh it was tough so well give her a pass. I do like this, and agree I dont want her just shut out, nor can I see many (or any) of the main cast doing thing. I think Brandon will easily do it justice, and it will be a part of the political aspect of the final book (or at least a part of it). I also agree from a story perspective that the spren needed more consequence, and its an interesting take on the recreance. I agree, I see some hating her, some defending her and some not caring. The morally grey choices, and their consequences are part of what makes stories both interesting and realistic. She was in a tough situation, and she may have caused just as much harm not making bad decisions, but she did, and there are consequences to those. She doesnt seem to have the ability, yet, to look back on her choices and reconsile that she did some bad stuff and to do better next time, so im hoping someone or a group of someones takes issue with it and forces her to confront her decision making

You mean the sibling wasnt talking to Kaladin and Dabid and neither of them managed to give those secrets to the unmade? Without Navani Kaladin showef up to the node the fused found, and the likleyhood of the fused finding the underwater node would be slim if not none, so yes Kaladin would have saved the day without Navani, and likley easier as he could heal better becore his 4th oath. Or someone else could have bonded the sibling, and without Navani, they dont find the last node and the sibling isnt unmade. Your using the consequences of Navanis actions to justify her further actions, each step taking her further in the wrong direction. I litterally pointed out several points amd refuted she needed raboniels help. First Gavilar made antivoid light without a fused, second Navani had access to Rlaine who can hear the pure tones of roshar and couple with the sibling who can give towerlight, all the knowledge that Raboniel gave Navani. Assuming she doesnt want to use these resources, she could have stopped at warlight, Raboniel thought antilight impossible by this point, or she could have just not written down her note on how to make it. So in closing, she did not need Raboniel to make anti void light nor was she required to leave her a litteral instruction manual on how to make said anti light. No she didnt, she did the best for her, which is the crux of the problem. The best she could do is helpping her people, not furthering her scholarship. If Navani had done nothing at a it would have been better for the good guys. Anti stormlight is a crazy weapon, not to mention she lead the fused to the most hidden node. No the ends dont justify the means, doing evil for some promise of good is almost never right or ethical. And again, not everyone losr, Navani did alot of wrong, for some personal gain. She wanted knowledge and her people and the tower be damned. If Navani hadnt cooperated, had resisted, sure maybr she dies, maybe she achieves nothing but she also doesnt make things significantly worse for her people or Kaladin Yes she did make several wrong choices, but this would be allieved (and still could in book 5) if she address' this. But so fsr she hasnt owned her screw ups and poor decisions, nor has anyone else expressed it. She made selfish choices and it cost the good guys dearly, and she hasnt even owned up. Yes it was a hard situation to be in, and the fused likley would have manipulated her eventually, but she put up almost no fight (slowing down is barley a fight) and shows no remorse for any of her actions or the consequences of them.

What about after warlight? She had the ideas here, what about not writting her discoveries down. You mean the voidlight that was given in much larger quantities due to Navani giving the fused the location of the node, and she wasnt working on it for that reason either her motives were not altruistic they where selfish. The tower was keen on bonding Rlaine, who like raboniel can hear the rhythms and together they could have made antivoid light after he bound the sibling. So the tower ould have the supression freed this way, as thats all Navani did to helpf ree the tower, Kaladin did the rest, he gave people hope, he fought fo the fussed, he tried to save the radiants, Navani worked eoth Raboniel to further her own selfish desires. Stopping at warlight, even stopping before, Gavilar somehow managed it without a fused so its not like theyre requiered, she could also have worked with Rlaine or the Sibling, once they knew light could be combind she could have taken the same steps, and the siblings towerlight could give her that. (It wasnt the fused that told her about the frequencies it was the Azish(i think its azish but people in the alliance)). Antivoidlight and unmaking the sibling are too different things, Navani helpped the fused in both yes, but they are seperate. As stated above she could have rediscovered (see Gavilar had antivoid light) antivoid light seperate from the fused. And by telling the fussed where the node was she almost single handedly gave them the sibling. Ummm you understand Navani worked with the enemy right? Navani took Lirins path, work wkth your enemy rather than resist. She devoped secrets for her enemy where she could have other wise refuse, could they have forced her, yes bring in her people and kill them until she does. Then i would have simpathy for her, but it didnt take that, it took promises of knowledge, odium tempted her and she welcomed it with open arms and gave him powerful knowledge and yet everyone seems to think she didnt do bad. If it had only been Navani, with no Kaladin, the tower would be lost, Odium would have anti light and she and all of her people would serving under Odium, her choices were selfish, which is the crux of my issue.

True, but coins while good against flesh arnt great against plate, we see them often pressing againdst walls and the floor not penetrating. True, but a couple of stray shots, how many coins are they carrying? Sure they can pull them back, but constently working at 100% while the radiant runs straight at you doesnt leave alot of room to work, especially given youll need humdreds of hits, look at the feats with dead plate, adolin was beaten on by 4 opponents one with a shard mace for minutes and his armour was cracked not broken. Possible yes, but very time comsuming where you cant let slip once or game over. This is because from what i can see everyone agrres equal skill 2nd oath vs mistborn goes to the mistborn almost everytime, at the 3rd its closer but mostly the mistborn depending on luck with surges etc, so weve movrd up to the 4th oath, at this point its luck for the mistborn to win at all and the radiant stomps. This is clear by the fact most arguments agaimst the radiant are guns, which are not a part of allomancy so lets give both guns and who wins, the unarmoured mistborn that cant heal, or the radiant thats both armoured and can heal. Sure, with multiple vials, how much is the mistborn carrying into combat because at some point they stop being able to have enough metal, and given they need to burn it faster than the radiants given theyre just healing their shardplate. Multiple hits sure, limely hundreds, is it possible yes, does it take an exteme yes, the radiant needs one maybe two hits to win, the mistborn needs to avoid that, not run out of metals or metal (objects) and hit them for minutes if not an hour before it breaks, shardplate is hard and magical. And then the radiants bairly draining their stormlight vs the mistborn going 100% a battle of attrition here favours the radiant No theyre running, and witb running comes less accuracy, less accuracy means less damage and running backward is slower (if they push backward the coins have zero mass to them and dont do any damage) and the radiant is usane bolt sprinting at them, theyll catch them its just a matter of time. Its not doging bullets it what the plate can take, if the mistborns close enough to shoot reliably the radiant closes the distance with ease, and then shardblade to the face, especially if they takr the time to brace and shoot such a powerful weapon. Yer i agree with this i think it was jist about all bar skybreakers (who didnt break their oaths) but 1000 max maybe half that is likely Your not convinced a super fast super strong radiant can run down a mistborn, either the mistborn only runs and does no dmaage, running out of pewter before the radiant, or they shoot back, move slower and get caught. This is ignroing throwing of a shard spear etc

Are mistborn not already more rare? Most allomancers on scadrial ate mistings, not mistborn, infact how many in era 2 are mistborn. You keep holding the radiants to a different standard than the allomancer. You keep saying a skilled mistborn, when a mistborn is already bear the pinical of allomancy. And by relying on this argument, you imply that the powers of a radiant out weigh a mistborn and a skill advantage is needed to overcome it. See above. I disagree, mistborn are rare, imho far rarer than 4th oath radiants, even if we low ball and say there are a couple hundred 4th oath radiants, this puts them less rare than the number of mistborn in era 1 and far more than era 2. So if we go by that should we take more skilled radiants to ballance out the rarity? And as ive said above, mistborn are almost the pinicle of their respective magic (a leras bead mistborn is probs pinacle) so no, i dont think we need ti account for skill Kaladin at 3rd oath, in a battlefiled fight, ie they both know the other is there beats vin. So this line isnt working out well once he gets plate. You doubt a sharpshooter would have trouble hitting a moving leg, when its running at what 40km an hour, even if we only assume best sprint speeds and is lets say a 15cm wide by a meter long, i doubt wax could hit that target reliably. Sure they could hjt the chest fairly easily, center of mass doesnt move as much and much more linear but a spren kite shield covers that. A kite shield is far less material than the shardblades have been depicted as being and thats all thats needed. So the mistborn burns their metals to reposition, as the radiant runs them down, the radiant has to move less distance and only has to move towards the flying coins/ bullets. The shardplate doesnt always glow either, as Jasnah depicted, so they have just as much of an issue, and they have no spren to look (which admitadly they need for a shield) but if its open ground and their far away they cant move sidewaya fast enough to get an angle, or, theyre close enough the radiant can see the change. And if its built up, the mistborn loses their range adavantage. The aluminium needs to get througb plate, its a soft metal, so its good vs non shardplate wearing, but worse against hard shardplate. So theyre now in range to hit eith the full force of a shotgun but havnt eaten a 12 foot spear to the face? He litteraly says, the right bullet, the right moment the right shot and theres an argument. I agree a pointblank shot to a non moving radiant could break it, but you add motion on both parties, a sprenshield covering centre of mass and the guns struggling. I understand what taking liberties means, and quite honestly you applying certainty to a vauge WoB is the only libetties being taken, but sure i do think vin has a chance against a third ideal kaladin, i think any average mistborn against an average 3rd oath is a toss up. At the 4th oath its game over. Have we seen that? Because battles last longer rhan fights, and most often the radiant fights weve seen have been part of battles. But in either case the radiant, only using passive storm light to heal the extremities of their armour will burn through their investigure much much slower than the mistborn going 100% to mvoe around, and damage that armour. So in a battle of attrition i think the radiant, who doesnt need surgebinding to win this fight wins. Because to just damage the plate the mistborn needs to go 100% Even if we assume a couple hundred that is still far more 4th oath radiants than full mistborns in era 1 or era 2, but sure limit the radiant because the 4th oath powers cant beat a mistborn...

Thr biggest problem with weapons lime firearms, is a radiant can also wield them, so its no longer a radiant vs mistborn situation. But again you cant shoot through a sprenshield, which can cover centre of mass, and good luck a) hiiting the arms and legs reliably to do any damage and b ) that damage even slowing down the radiant The crux of the argument is standard mistborn vs radiant give what we know from row, the biggest difference to before is 4th oath radiants. And to compare a 4th oath radiant to a mistborn. You cant both say a mistborn can reliabily win, and also say a mistborn needs buffs (leras bead, better guns, unlimitted metals more skill etc etc) they can take part of a different discussion, and may even the ods, but in a mistborn v 4th oath radiant they are not counter points. Assuming they can do the damage required before theyre either out of metals or the radiant runs them down. Sadies was beat on for minutes by parahendi with full mace blows while he was lying on the ground, minutes by things with huge mass, swung really hard. The coins might annoy the radiant, but they cant do do damage, their best bet is eye slit, and we now know that can be removed. So radiant, while using barley any stormlight walks down through the storm of coins until they catch the mistborn and kill them or thr mistborn runs through their metals faster (theyre burning at 100%) and then they die. Guns helps, but sprenkite shield to covrr centre of mass and head and that guns not doing any reliable damage. I did mean maybe a thousand here sorry. Its easily hundreds, i havnt got the book infront of me but from dalinars vision it was implied countless knights let their armour fall. In either case there are no current mistborns, so do we just consider mistings? The biggest difference though is range and durability, a radiant can go punch for punch because both them and their armour heals a mistborn might ignore pain but they still breao bones, kaladin broke his legs and he barly cracked already damaged deadplate and not on the section he hit. A broken legged mistborn is dead. Plus the speed could be equal, and seems about it, but eith a two hand weapon the range advantage far outweighs speed, and theyre not slower. I agree here but it does demonstrate their offence and defence "power" ie the stength of their blows (kicking war form parshendi hard enough to knock other war forms over) ves, cracking ribs? And defence, Sadies had how many warforms with maces raining blows on him for minutes and hes was still alive vs the damage a mistborn can take. So yes it dorsnt help show fighting ability but it shows the stark difference in stopping power and defence.

So basically give the mistborn huge buffs and they win against an average 4th oath radiant? The biggest problem with guns is hitting the target. A fast moving almost impenotrable target with say a shardkite shield covering center of mass and theyvd got to hit the arms and legs. Raising im the oaths also has nothing to do with skill, look at shallan, or jasnah they both can barly wield a sword and are both 4th oath (i think shallan is but she may be 3rd) oath!= skill The problem mkstborn have with 4th oath radiants is the plate they have no repiable way to break it without leaving themselves in a worse position. Mistborn are awesome, their powers IMHO are cooler than stormlight+sprenblade+liveplate but they dont have the offence or defence to deal with it, the best counters ive seen has been buff the mistborn which at its heart is admiting a mistborn cant take on a 4th oath radaint (assuming equal skill) On the note of 4th oath radiants, there where hundreds if not thousands st the time of thr tecreance, far more IMHO than there are mistborn on scadrial in era 1 let alone later.