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Okay, so I was reading the theorizing in general cosmere about how in the Gavilar prologue the Stormfather felt very different. I saw a lot of people saying it’s Ishar, something I agree with. This is gonna move along a few lines related to that, but starting with the point that made me post it here: 1) that reminds me of how Zellion talked about how his adherence to his oaths kept his Torment at bay at least somewhat. We know all Heralds are crazy, and one of the counterpoints to the “StormFaker is Ishar” theory was: ‘he’s far too lucid to be Ishar.’ But we know some of the Heralds insanity is magical in nature, which sounds, to me, not unlike a Torment. We know vast amounts of investiture (like a Radiant sweating an oath) and oaths, help Ishar overcome his insanity, again something reminiscent of Zellion’s Torment. He can summon his blade immediately after being in the sun, and could get past his Torment while following the oaths. Brandon said Sunlit Man had SA5 spoilers. My pitch is: StormFaker was Ishar, he was potentially bonded to the Stormfather (who said he “has experience with” Ishar) and/or he used his pre existing Bondsmith powers to highjack Gavilar/the Storm father’s budding connection and manipulate Gavilar. (We see that Dalinar can pull people into visions, I’m absolutely sure Ishar can do the same lolol). He could do all of this because HE was a Bondsmith/had sworn Bondsmith oaths, which ended after Chana (probably) and Gavilar died and the Stormfather decided to sever their bond, leading to his descent into full, unmitigated insanity which coincidentally started almost immediately after those two events. He also goes to get his sword right after these events, presumably because he wants his powers back, having lost them with his lost bond to SF. 2) that theory still works without Ishar being bonded to the Stormfather, especially because that could be a leap. (I think that the Stormfather said there hadn’t been a Bondsmith in centuries.) The other part of it though, hinges on Ishar having a Torment. All the Heralds are nuts, but it seems to ME like he’s extra nuts. And something like the Oathpact seems like the type of thing that could be created with Dawnshard level power. And we know the Dawnshards were both on Ashyn and all over Roshar, as is Ishar. So the second part of the theory is: Ishar’s insanity is part of/worsened by his Torment. Either because he’s a Herald or he held a dawnshard or both, he has a Torment which he can only overcome while a) following Radiant Oaths or b) around someone ELSE following radiant oaths or maybe c) around a TON of Investiture but that seems less likely cuz he’s nuts right by a perpendicularity. 3) more evidence for Ishar/SF bond I think is how easily Ishar (almost) takes the bond from Dalinar. He seems to know the connection well, as with the connection to Odium. We know that he now curses the Stormfather and that the Stormfather can still see him, something I’d argue is because of their potentially stronger connection now. I think it explains why the Stormfather is so jaded when it comes to trusting Dalinar as well. He’s just had a bad experience. That was a lot, so thank you if you read it, but if not: TL;DR: Ishar is the StormFaker cuz he bonded with the Stormfather and manipulated Gavilar. He held a Dawnshard at one point and now has a Torment. The SF bond suppressed the effects of his Torment, but losing the bond caused him to go crazy(er) after the Stormfather ended their bond post-Gavilar/Chana death. Tear apart my theory, provide feedback, lmk what you think!!:)

Can't cap, I like this theory a lot too. I think your tin hat part is a little more strained, because I think Odium didn't want to combine with any other shards, per WoB, but other than the part about Odium wanting to become conquest, I think that's right. Or even that the "we killed you" could be in reference to the Dawnshard. I don't think evidence conclusively points either way, but I like your theory a lot too!

Oh RIP, yeah I'll see if I can pick up the books and find the relevant thing but yeah I believe you if Honor didn't say that. And it could mean Hoid, I actually thought it could mean Kelsier too cause we haven't technically seen him, only in a vision, but it also could fit for this. That is a good WoB tho thank you!

I think that Odium is a dawnshard. We have these WoBs: Valhalla Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way? Brandon Sanderson Yes they would. Valhalla Would any of them not talk about it that way? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Excellent, good questions. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) Billy Todd, Moderator So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Part of him does. Billy Todd, Moderator Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering? Brandon Sanderson Yes. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) I think that this is because passion or be passionate is one of the Commands for the Dawnshards, so part of him is that, Passion. Brandon also said: MoriWillow You once told us that one of the Dawnshards was different from the others. As of the events of this novella, is that still true? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020) I think that the one Dawnshard that is different is the one that Odium is. I think he's both a Shard and a Dawnshard. We know that Odium has more power than he should, and that he's referred to himself as Passion. We also know that Odium has a record of winning what would seem to be even fights, relatively unscathed. We know he has had help as well, but Brandon also said that he's capable enough on his own that, given the current situation, he could conceivably overcome Sazed (who has approximately twice the raw power). Relevant WOBs: Khyrindor Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to-- Brandon Sanderson RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) Questioner Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium. Questioner Yeah. Brandon Sanderson Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight? Questioner Vin. Brandon Sanderson Okay, there's your answer. White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016) A few last big pieces of evidence: The foreshadowing: The Broken One reigns. I think the Broken One is Odium's Dawnshard, that is functioning differently. The fact that Dalinar felt a warm golden in light in (OB I Think?) and expects it to be the God Beyond before turning around to see Odium. This could be reminiscent of the "warm golden light" that Rysn also felt when she saw the Dawnshard in the cave. We know Honor was ranting about the Dawnshards, emphasis s. He talked about how they had been corrupted or something of the like (someone please link the relevant quote I don't have my books right now because I'm moving). Odium having, and corrupting, a Dawnshard certainly seems like the type of thing to fit into this categorization of Honor's. We know that Hoid has personal beef with Odium, considering that there are a max of four Dawnshards at a time, it seems like the kind of thing where knowledgeable Dawnshards would be aware of each other, and also seems like the kind of thing that could exacerbate personal beef. We know that we've seen a Dawnshard, somewhat, before Dawnshard. Punzi (paraphrased) Have we seen a Dawnshard in any Cosmere book? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes and no. *hands RAFO card* DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 30, 2019) Questioner The Dawnshards. Have we seen any evidence of them on Roshar yet? Brandon Sanderson Technically, yes. Questioner Is there a the relationship between them and say, like, the perfect gems like the King's Drop? Brandon Sanderson I'll RAFO that. Good question. FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018) I think these are because Odium is a dawnshard, or a corrupted version of one, and we haven't seen him use his Dawnshard yet either. But that's my theory, I'd love to hear other's thoughts on my theory, things you think prove my theory right or wrong or things I might've missed!:)

I know the Iriali are like “the One split to experience everything” so what if the Dawnshards are more about experiencing the trappings of life! In my mind they would be : To Change: and it’s various intents Cultivation Ruin Preservation Ingenuity Shard To Care: this could also be interpreted as Passion Odium Ambition Survival Shard To Connect: also could be like Unite Honor Endowment Devotion To Choose: Autonomy Dominion Prudence/Wisdom Shard I think you could move some of these around, like Endowment or Devotion could possibly be switched in this categorization but these are all things that a static, unfeeling god would be able to do, so going off the Iriali saying the “one” wanted to basically be human, these seem like the things a god couldn’t do! Edit: I originally had Devotion in Care and Dominion in Connect but I figured they were better in Connect and Choose specifically

It kind of sounds like Bill Cypher from Gravity Falls to me! Like not exactly but an analogue

Okay but this one is actually pretty good tho! And that’d explain how the sky breakers left alone too and could tie in in really cool ways with like Maya and other Recreance spren. I like this one tbh

Dope! Then that means that yeah they're confirmed to appear in RoW or Dawnshard, barring some like surprise release of Dragonsteel on November 18th or something. But yeah that makes sense given that we say the other planets named in last weeks chapter, I can see the Ghostbloods having a lot of cosmere/realmatic influence and we get the shards from them somehow for sure!

I’m in the same boat! And I feel like I’ve gotten so used to character resurrections that when I saw the body missing I felt like it had to be a lampshade!

He said they’d be canonized but the points people have made are right that might just mean for himself, though I think it was implied that they would be canonized to the general public! And since he said by the end of RoW that presumably means in RoW or Dawnshard somewhere but it could be something else

Oh yeah duh you’re right cuz Harmony ain’t OG! And I’m assuming for the Odium thing that’s something he said in a book at some point?

His Magic raises your blood pressure each time you use it

Also while typing this my phone autocorrected Odium so Sodium so here’s my official pitch for a Sodium shard in rhythm of war

So I just watched Brandon’s Live Signing Session from Thursday and just saw the part where he said that by ROW we’ll have all (or close to all) 16 shards canonized! This seems like a big reveal to me as we only have 11 or 12 IIRC! So then I wanted to start this thread to ask: do we have any new ones confirmed appearing in ROW/Dawnshard or if not how do you think we’ll get the new ones canonized and which ones will appear? Will Odium knowledge dump about the previous shards he’s killed? Will Khriss appear in ROW and spill some Realmatic knowledge? Kelsier? Do the Aimians know or is there something about the shards there? Will we learn something from the Shadesmar trip? And then also which new shards will there be? I personally support the theories for Ingenuity, Wisdom and Prudence. (I know there’s a similarity there but there’s a WoB somewhere talking about how there are two that are pretty close.) I’d love to hear any others we have confirmed appearing or any theories y’all have too! Edit: My personal theory is that as things continue to escalate Hoid corresponds with a few new shards and then a couple are dropped in randomly by say, the Ghostbloods or some spren in Shadesmar. I don’t think most of the new ones will be tremendously important, but I bet it’ll be just some little name drops. That does raise the question though: why canonize Shards (when he’s been reluctant to for so long) for something as simple as a random namedrop here and there. So I think it’s possible that either Odium discusses some shards he’s killed or maybe some shards get involved somehow? Even with that though I think there are WoBs to say that SA is about Odium, Cultivation and Honor so interference is unlikely, so yeah I’m interested to hear what y’all think it is! As far as new shards I’m way less sure, I tried to think through it mapping out the shards like the Allomantic Table and ended up with these: Change: Ruin (In, Push), Preservation (In, Pull), Preservation (Ex, Pull), Endowment (Ex, Push) Relationships: Honor (In, Pull), Autonomy (In, Push), Dominion (Ex, Pull), Devotion (Ex, Push) Feelings: Odium (Ex, Push), Anguish (Ex, Pull), Elation (In, Pull), Ataraxis (In, Push) Decisions: Ambition (Ex, Push), Ingenuity (Ex, Pull) Wisdom (In, Push), Prudence (In, Pull) Tbh, a lot of those feel like reaches so I don’t think I have a lot of this table right but I do agree with Prudence, Wisdom, Ingenuity and Anguish as new Shards! Excited to hear y’all theories!

That could play in really cool ways with Secret History with things like Or And you could do cool behind the scenes reveals like

Or what if Restares is her 4th personality?? Nah but seriously, I kind of felt like Brands was hanging a lampshade on Ishnah, cuz he specifically pointed out how Shallan (or whoever of the Three was in control at that point) was questioning Gaz and Red, who had been with her since the beginning but not Ishnah. Ishnah seems like she makes the most sense too as a Ghostblood plant cuz everything Shallan knows about her comes from the Ghostbloods, but twice we see Shallan just completely trust Ishnah without question, I think a lampshade for sure.

Ah yeah there we go thank you! That’s true and it’s also an interesting question to ask how much we know about any of the vessels cuz we obviously know the fates of Ati, Leras, Aona, Skai, and Sazed, but I saw a post the other day that talked about how they weren’t sure if Rayse was still Odium that I found somewhat compelling! Our lack of knowledge about the vessels combined with the possibilities of Shardic Intent definitely leave a lot open for sure!

I think this makes a good point too in that this all assumes Bavarian stays as Autonomy! I personally don’t really think any of the Intents have particularly positive or negative connotation cuz I’ve always thought that one of the big ideas B Sands is exploring with is comparing different ambiguous traits and how they manifest in different situations and what that creates! (Miles vs. Kelsier, Gavilar vs. Dalinar, Szeth vs. Nale, etc.) I think and hope that one of the things that he’s trying to show is that nothing (or very little) is the correct path of action in every situation so it’s down to an individual introspection and understanding of values, situation, responsibilities, morals, etc.. All that being said the point was: if Bavadin stays Autonomy, you’re right it seems somewhat out of character for them to become the big bad, but that assumes that Bavadin stays Autonomy! If someone who’s like super anti-coalition, anti-nation, anti-agreement, anti-interaction between humans becomes Autonomy then maybe I can see them being opposed at the end (cuz I know Brands said it was gonna be about inter-culture interaction and conflict) but that feels a little like a reach. I always thought the big bad was some force anti-Adonalsium I thought that was talked about in a WoB somewhere.

I thought Aesudan died in OB from Yelig-nar? Is she still alive? Regardless Gavilar as the overarching hero/champion would be sweet tho

I was thinking about it and always kind of thought it’d be like “Knowledge of Worth” cuz I felt like especially as the last book and Szeth’s flashback book I though the ideas of sacrifice (prices paid) and trust (including in oneself) would be big ones. The only part that makes me wonder is idk if that could be an in-world book and a little part of me thinks that sounds like a self-help book.

I like the ideas everyone’s put forth so far, or extensions of them like a daily (periodic) amount of investiture, and it’s cool to see where other people’s minds go! My first thought was: magic that gets less powerful the more emotional you are, or the less in control you are. Kind of like how Awakening is linked to perception and cognition and better awakeners are better at imagining what they want their Awakened objects to do and giving commands, better casters in this system would be better at keeping their emotions in check. You could then end up with caster battles that were super inflammatory and all about the caster’s ability to keep their cool under pressure, almost like a rap battle where emotional control is paramount. It’d be cool too to have a magic that was that reliant on perception and the cognitive realm in a new way. I realized as I was writing this that it leans pretty hard on the first definition and might better fit like a shard of Discipline or something but I still think it’s cool and could be a cool idea for a system!