Georion

Hey, I've got a Lirin related question and I dont know where else to ask, dont want to make a separate thread for it. Did Lirin swear a radiant oath, while the spren of Urithiru were blacked out? When they had a fight with Kaladin, one of his replies definitely sounded like one, but I was too caught up in the moment to reflect on it, or compare it to the other known oaths, and now I cant even find the paragraph. I kinda thought he'll end up bounding the Sibling because I could see some connections between their personalities and behavior, but alas no. It has been bugging me since. Does anyone remember which chapter it was?

I completely understand that reason, and that maintaining 2 or more versions for articles is very hard, but wouldn't be a solution to just wait an arbitrary 1 week or 10 days after each big release, before updating the wiki? It's very daunting, that merely 2 days after release the whole wiki is spoiler flagged. There's literally not enough time to finish the book if someone got their copy post-release, even if one would do nothing but read and sleep, let alone if the mail was 1 day late or had other things going on. I consider myself a fairly dedicated fan, and did a full reread before release, but still ended up having to search for things like a specific surge or gemstone, and hit the spoilerwall. Just a thought, you obviously run the site the way you feel it's best.

From what I understood both Eshonai and Venli will have flashbacks in ROW, I think Brandon wrote this on reddit, though I cannot quote it right now. EDIT: actually found it rather easily, here it is: "In the original outlines, I hadn't intended to go into as much depth as I ended up doing with Eshonai/Venli in books two and three. I realized quickly into writing the series that I couldn't wait that long to humanize the Parshendi. So I put a lot of the mystery of their culture and their motives into books two and three. That led me to deciding in this book to split the flashbacks between them, as I felt it added more variety to the flashbacks--as I had sacrificed some of the novelty that was originally going to distinguished the flashbacks for this book."

I was looking at my (sadly less impressive) map of Roshar while the meeting with the Mink was going on, and this is bugging me: Alethkar has no direct access to any of the Oceans. The southern boarder is made up pretty much entirely of the Frostlands, which afaik arent part of the kingdom, and besides, hold little value. It would make sense if he was referring to the Tarat Sea, but he isnt, and the sea is referenced elsewhere during the discussion so it's probably not it. So where are those Alethi troops?

Fossils need life on said planet, geologically formed precious stones dont. So maybe life on Roshar is not that old, but geological gemstones could exist maybe?

Agreed, I think the collective wisdom of this thread might have collectively jumped the gun on this one. They know about perfect gems and capturing Unmade, yet it doesnt even cross Navani's mind, so I think that s a clear indication it must be something else. Plus if I recall correctly Gavillar had multiple such gems, at the very least two, since he gave one to Eshonai, right? We know of multiple active unmades, so it doesnt make sense that many of them sit in Gavillar s pocket

Okay, but was there a traitor highprince then? if so, who?

I posted this comment in an old thread, and I was told that it's better to start a new topic in such a case, than revive an old thread. So I've just gotten to the point with my pre-ROW reread (the Dalinar flashbacks about the sacking of the Rift), and once again, I'm baffled by this conundrum. There was a discussion about why Sadeas was or wasn't really in league with Tanelon, or was he really just framed. So why Sadeas DIDNT do it: Sadeas was loyal at this point, presumably he still considered Dalinar a friend, and even if he wished to move against Gavilar or Dalinar, it makes no sense to do it this way. Joining one fledgling highprince against Gavilar is foolish, and the idea of Sadeas being loyal to Gavilar is rocksolid. Now he could have wished to move against Dalinar for multiple reasons, but having him killed in a battle/ambush is a bit strange, and very risky. Tanelon did hate the Kholins and it makes sense he just wanted Dalinar dead at all cost, and framing one of their closest allies in the process just fits the bill. Why Sadeas DID do it: There is a traitor highprince, this is confirmed by multiple sides. There isnt anyone else there, or even mentioned before/after the events. It makes no sense (narratively) that an unnamed off-screen highprince was supporting the Rift, who then gave up on the idea. I guess Tanelon could have started this rumor himself, which gotten to Gavilar's ears as valuable information from a trusted spy, but that s a bit convoluted, plus what was his endgame, if he had no allies in this? Coax the Kholins into an attack, maybe kill Dalinar with the ambush and then... die or at least get conquered again? Sadeas arrived early. Dalinar says this when he's limping back to camp after the ambush and thinks it good fortune. It's a bit convenient that Sadeas arrives early, moments after Dalinar's supposed demise, to take control of the armies and make an example out of the rebels, what he advocated for from the start, but Gavilar refused, and seemingly Dalinar was unwilling to do either. Sadeas's viewpoint was reinforced multiple times in the flashbacks, starting from the early day, right up to the beginning of the siege and during. Make an example, slaughter cruelly, because that sends the right message, and means less trouble down the road. Dalinar has a change of heart even during the sacking of the Rift, before he finds out about Evi, he wants to send the stand-down order, but Sadeas tells him there's no way, he already set fire to the city from the other end as well, and shot down any who could flee with archers. He was really committed to not leaving any loose ends. There are supposed traitor scouts in Dalinar's army, bribed by Tanelon, who helped setting up the ambush. Ok, sure, it's possible, Dalinar ran a good army, and Tanelon wasn't very strong or influential, but these things can happen still. But what happens to them? Sadeas reports to Dalinar upon his arrival at camp, that they've already been dealt with "we bribed one to turn on the others, and executed the rest". Ok, that's suspicious AF, Sadeas concluding the investigation instantly, by bribing one and executing all the rest. I should think you'd want to find out how and when they've gotten turned, who are their contacts, torture them for information and punishment. Bribing one, then instant execution of the rest seems like serves one purpose, cover his tracks. Sadeas was in a much better position to get to a unit in the Kholin army, than Tanelon. When Dalinar admits to Sadeas that he fell for the "trick" and believed Sadeas could be the traitor, Sadeas seemingly tries to reassure him, saying that he thought Dalinar could turn on Gavilar. So there is the motivation. Sadeas was loyal, but only to Gavilar. He liked Dalinar well enough, but he was a rival and getting stronger, and he was afraid not only that his own position with Gavilar is overshadowed, but that Gavilar himself might be attacked by Dalinar, or hurt in some other way. Other tidbit: The throwaway comment about the rockslide, and Gavilar naming Sadeas as one of the potential employers of the Assassin in White in the prologue. So what did I miss? Are there WOBs about the Rift? Could the "bribed" scout be alive, the one who actually knows what happened? EDIT: typos and phrasing

Gonna be honest, after the first 3 books I had my theory that Kaladin is gonna be Odium's champion. Upon rereads, it really stuck out how many times he felt hatred or similar emotions, especially class-hatred towards the ruling class and personal hatred towards individuals who wronged those close to him, plus he sympathized a lot with the parsh, so I felt he's kinda being set up for that route... Now, it's quite evident that it's not gonna happen, Brandon kinda spoiled this by confirming in a WoB that Kaladin wont turn evil or destructive (like Danny in season 8 of GOT), plus the early ROW chapters already took it in a different direction... But that doesnt mean Odium wont try to recruit him as his champion (just that he has no chance of succeeding), in fact that scene with Moash might be part of that plot.

That s my feeling as well, Maya will be healed or reviewed or whathaveyou, but Adolin will not become and Edgedancer, and Maya will be set free. Yes, some of the qualities of the Edgedancer's from the descriptions would fit Adolin, but let's keep in mind those are fairly loose and many of them would fit good soldier/ hero type people. In the other thread someone pointed out how well Adolin fits the Stonewards, let's take a peak at the rest: Windrunner: Perfect fit Skybreaker good fit Dustbringers good fit Lightweaver not a good fit overall, but this sentence could be applied to Adolin. Willshaper decent fit, at least this part Bondsmith is a bit of a wild card order, because it depends most on the special spren rather than personality of the radiant, but whatever, let's say that one + Elecaller+ Truthwatcher really dont fit Adolin. He would be a decent to almost perfect fit for the rest of the 7 orders. If it wasnt for Maya, I dont think people would even consider Adolin becoming an edgedancer, if he was to become radiant, most people would agree he's a stoneward/windrunner/dustbringer. EDIT: plus, there are several theories about him either dying or being taken by Odium, and I find those theories narratively more cohesive, then the idea of him just becoming another Edgedancer, because he heals his spren.

This was beautiful. I have no words

I think it's extremely unlikely that Kaladin would die in RoW, and quite unlikely to die even in 5th. As far as I can tell, Brandon doesnt to that kind of subversion of expectations. We have a fairly clear view of his character arc, imo, and it's nowhere near its end. However some main character is likely to die, if not in RoW, then in the 5th book, and well, there's just a whole lot of Kholins in the main cast, so my guess is, that if it's just the one main character we lose in this half of the series, then it's one of them. And if we go a bit further, there's 0% for it to be Renarin, very unlikely to be Navani or Jasnah so either Dalinar or Adolin, and the latter is more likely in my opinion. Could be both tho

I think it's not all fabrials but Soulcasters that behave like that, so i guess no her Painrial wouldn't? Also, regarding the 4th Bridge, there was like a page+ explanation about the mechanism powering it, chapter 3 I believe. edit: typo

I'm getting a bit worried about Dawnshard spoilers, I feel like I already know more about the novella's plot than I should. The chapter itself is amazing, I love how Adolin was a standin for like a non-obsessed fan, who probably mixes up all the secret societies, like "Oh, it's not them, then it must be that other... no? well..." Really looking forward for the next Shallan vs Mraize encounter

I just want to know what the hell is Shallan still repressing? What's worse than killing your parents? I'm fairly new to the forum, is there a place where I can read about clues and speculations regarding Shallan's next truth?

I like 4) the best too, though I wouldnt mind any of the first 3 options, but personally not a fan of Shallan having a random 4th personality, who's an assassin. Veil is already more than willing to be that. Back to Restares, as things stand in chapter 7, the Ghostbloods are dominating, and all named members of the SoH are dead, except for their leader. Since Brandon hinted that Restares could be one of the human antagonists of the book, and he's been quietly built up for 3 books as a dangerous and powerful person, I fully expect a "SoH strike back" arc. It could contain revelation that Restares decided to cut the former members off (the Gavilar wing of the organization so to speak) and go in the direction he initially wanted, possibly with the Ardentia or something like that. Also "restar" is a verb in Spanish, "restar es" could be used in a sentence (meaning something like take away/ subtract), it's probably an unintended coincidence though. On a last note, I'm very impressed (and quite a bit glad) that Sanderson was willing to cut the whole Ialai storyline short, basically to move most of it off-screen, and just show the resolution. While this whole story seemed intriguing, I always had a bone to pick with the fact that most of Roshar's human villains are from Team Sadeas. I mean, for me Sadeas/Amaram/Roshone were the three biggest pieces of crem, with little to no redeeming qualities, and they all happened to be important lighteyes from the same princedom. If Ialai would have been built up as the main human antagonist of the book or part of the book, it would have been a bit too much.

I have, though I dindt reach there with my re-read. I'm not saying Gavilar wasn't a good fighter, I'm saying that there is a slight contradiction / timeline inconsistency. Elhokar was born after the unification wars, so after Gavilar did most of his in-person fighting. During his son's lifetime there were several smaller conflicts, the largest being the 2nd Rift uprising. Gavilar didnt even participate in that, he remained home with his family (Elhokar was a small child at this point). As i said he might have challenged his friends or ardents for duels (though we arent told specifically) but who could have challenged him? Almost nobody, certainly his enemies didnt. Yet Elhokar seems to remember his father "refusing duels near the end". So that implies he had seen his father being challenged for duels, and accepting them earlier on, but almost nobody could challenge king Gavilar, so there's my nitpick.

Hello everyone! I have a very nit-picky observation/ question, so I thought about posting it on reddit, but at the same time, I thought maybe it's the right reason to sign up for this forum. Re-reading the Way of Kings I found something that bothered me even on my previous read, and that is the inconsistency surrounding Gavilar’s reputation as a swordsman and duelist, and his later loss of appetite for these activities. In the Way of Kings, but I’m reasonably sure that in the next two books as well, there are several mentions about Gavilar being a master swordsman, someone who like and engaged in dueling. On the other hand, we are told about 0 such duels, yet we are told on numerous occasions that Dalinar was the fighter and the duelist, while Gavilar was the leader. Presumably in their effort to conquer Kholinar and becoming Highprince, Gavilar did his fair share of fighting, we know almost nothing about these years, but we do see quite a few glimpses of the unification wars, yet at that point Gavilar is already transitioning more and more towards being only a political leader, and maybe a war-strategist, but certainly not a duelist. Few quotes: “It was said few men could rival Gavilar Kholin’s swordsmanship” – Szeth – Way of Kings- Prologue Not an exact quote “You didn’t duel a Highprince. It just wasn’t something that’s done” – Adolin – Way of Kings (There are also references in the series, that it wouldn’t be proper for a king or leader to duel someone below his station) Not an exact quote: “He started to refuse duels, you know… near the end” Elhokar to Dalinar – Way of Kings. (Sadeas has a similar comment also in Way of Kings. “Gavilar had been the leader, the momentum and the essence of their conquest, but Dalinar had been the warrior. Their opponents had surrendered to Gavilar’s rule, but the Blackthorn, he was the man who had scattered them, the one who had dueled their leaders and slain their best shardbearers” – Dalinar – Way of Kings” – Assault of the Tower plateau In the Dalinar flashbacks in Oathbringer, I clearly remember that when Tanalan (leader of the Rift) was challenged to a duel, it was obvious Dalinar would be the one taking him on, and then Tanalan asked what if he kills Dalinar? And the answer was “then Sadeas gets a crack at you”. So the option of Gavilar dueling an enemy leader, (Highprince and/or shardbearer) isn’t even entertained, and this was way back in the year 1141, towards the end of the unification wars, so towards the end of the period where we could reasonably expect Gavilar to engage in a duel. Elhokar wasn’t even born yet (only in 1147), not sure if Gavilar was already king, or just Hihgprince and the de facto leader of the Alethi, being the leader of the coalition poised to unite Alethkar. The second Rift uprising was in 1163, Gavilar stayed at home and sent Dalinar once again to deal with it. The timeline of the early wars is fuzzy, but we have at least the exact time for the Rift uprisings. Gavilar may have been a duelist in the early year, before Elhokar was born. But in the time Elhokar could remember, he was already king, and hasn’t been doing any in-person fighting on the battlefield in years. So, if he’s not challenging enemy shardbearers, who could he have dueled? It’s fairly clearly stated that challenging a Highprince was a very rare occurrence, challenging a King should be even more so by that logic. Maybe his closest allies could challenge him for friendly duels, but Dalinar and Sadeas certainly make no such remark; some of the other Highprinces maybe? Wouldn’t that be strange, a former enemy, whom he defeated in the unification wars, challenging him for a “friendly duel”. He could have dueled ardents for sport, I guess, but he would be the one challenging in those situations. All in all, I know this is a next level nitpick, but I think Gavilar couldn’t have possibly had many duels in the lifetime of his son, so it could be noticeable for Elhokar that his father lost his appetite for sword-fighting "near the end". What do you think? Am I missing something?