extremepayne

Spoilered for irrelevance Anyway, on "I killed my spren", I think maybe that's an Ideal to Pattern, and then she will swear something else to Testament, something along the lines of Of course, that raises the problem of potentially bringing Pattern up to Fifth Ideal (if it was him used in the chasms and therefore he had three sworn to him already then). But that is an idea I like. Not sure if I like it more than my original one, but its definitely an idea.

The spoiler button is in the center of the emptiness. Click it to reveal the contents. E: I have no idea why its invisible. Stupid Reddit.

The First Ideal is both an Ideal and an oath. Ideals 2-5 for Lightweavers are oaths, Truths, and Ideals. The thing people are being pedantic about is that the First Ideal isn't a Truth. I too recommend using Ideal or oath to avoid confusion. The amount of WoBs about Shallan where Brandon is straight-up lying makes me doubt the veracity of this one. Also note that it was called into question even before RoW's release, as Brandon is not very good at keeping track of Ideal level. Pattern also lies to Shallan. I dunno, again, the whole Blade situation is weird, and I haven't quite figured it out. Thanks! I love that idea for Shallan's Third to Testament! This is my new headcanon Hmmm... now that's an interesting idea. I don't know how it figures into this all, but I'll keep it in mind. Yup, that's what I mean by proto-bond, since he was proto-bonded to Syl at the time.

Well, agree to disagree, but also my point still stands. Only Honor-Bondsmiths can perp-summon afawk, and Ishar and Dalinar are both very exceptional cases. Fifth Ideal Radiants in general are commonplace, relative to Shards, Slivers, wounds on the Spiritual, and... no that covers it since the Stormfather is a Sliver and that's what's going on with Dalinar.

The whole point of this is, all of these things, Well, Shards, wound on the Spiritual, are very exceptional. Fifth Ideal Radiants are mundane. From a meta perspective, it doesn't make much sense to mundanify the process of indefinite Cognitive Shadow-ness. The exact details of the exceptional circumstances aren't worth fighting over, the point is they are exceptional.

He's a Sliver. I'm deliberately not including Shades since trying to extrapolate from them, as I said before, seems fruitless. They are def way different than the others.

Anyone can become a Cognitive Shadow. In fact, anyone not killed by Nightblood does. However, only a select few are able to persist indefinitely, and so far those have all been Slivers or products of direct Shardic intervention. While maybe the Ideals scale a bit, I don't think you'd have Radiants sticking around for any longer than an hour on their own merits, much less all eternity.

I didn't say contact a Shard, I said direct Shardic intervention. Kelsier didn't need to do anything to have Preservation help him, the requirement was for Preservation to help him. Again, if anyone has the quote and can prove that Leras did not somehow intervene, please do so. Actually, wasn't Kelsier enabled to persist not by the Well, which trapped him, but by virtue of being a Sliver? Again that is way beyond normal magical processes.

Right, he got a hold of the Well, which, while not Shardic intervention, was very much not an Invested Art either. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Leras say like "Okay, Kelsier. Be Preserved" or smth, implying that he had some sort of active role in Kelsier's Preservation? Could be misremembering tho. Edit: Can't seem to quote Benjardin in this edit, but don't want to double post. Yes, I specifically said excluding the Shades, because we understand almost nothing about how those come to be, they are clearly the exception and not the rule, and it would be silly to try and extrapolate from our extremely limited information on how those CShadows operate.

Nightblood has grown in power. Legion release party Not only is he stronger than 1k Breaths, he is "the most [...] Invested thing in the cosmere, second only to the Shards". So yes, I would say that Nightblood killing Rayse or collapsing (not destroying) Honor's perp is right on brand for him. Some other WoBs about how Invested Nightblood is: This doesn't rule out Nightblood being a Dawnshard, but it (I think) eliminates the need for him to be one. Probably just Adhesion Unchained tbh. Man was Surgebinding, and also is Realmatically predestined to be a good fighter. Don't think this is outside the range of what we'd expect from him either. Oh, so you think "Kaladin will be good with the spear" is a result of him being a Dawnshard? Well, I'll just point out that Dalinar's fighting all took place long before he bonded the Stormfather. I don't think Kaladin's good fighting is Dawnshard-indicative. His Surges are more effective, his Blade can shapeshift, and his very presence causes Szeth to doubt all that he knows. Szeth is literally going through an internal mental crisis every single time he sees Kaladin Surgebind, so he's not really at the top of his game. Kaladin has the advantage mentally, physically, and in terms of weapon. The only thing Szeth is better at is training. The result of this fight is unsurprising and doesn't need a Dawnshard to explain it. A single Reverse Lashing takes care of all their arrows. Reverse Lashings are the least Light-intensive, so its really no surprise he's able to pull this one off either. Surgebinders violently outclass normal soldiers, even without Shards. This is actually a nice recurring theme and I think a good point, especially considering how much Moash echoes this same rhetoric. I don't think it means he has to be a Dawnshard, but it is something particularly unusual about Kaladin specifically. Well, it pretty much was. Youtube livestream 23 Kaladin being closer to the Ideals is the answer we get, straight from the horse's mouth. While the rest of what you say is pure conjecture and I can't rebut it, I would just like to note that several details in the poem of Ista have me convinced that the only answer is it was written by a Sleepless (about a hordeling).

Yeah, I would have is similar to I'd like to, but it implies there is something left for Szeth to do. I don't think the highspren is offering to advance him, as, like Ki said, you can only advance once the crusade is complete. It reads to me like this "Szeth, you are amazing and wonderful and I know you can make Fourth, you just need to do a crusade. Would you still like to cleanse the Shin, or would you prefer a different crusade?" I don't think the conversation changes anything about how the Fourth can be achieved. After all, Ki was probably plenty determined for the two decades they remained at Third, and their highspren didn't advance them until they completed the quest. I think proving your worth in the way you describe is what is needed to begin the quest. Completing the quest is what unlocks the Plate and advances you an Ideal. The way Ki talks about the Ideal backs this up.

??? The Fourth Ideal is about the crusade itself. Szeth's dedication and worth is something he has already shown and his spren wants him to advance because of that. That is very different from actually advancing him because of it. If you read the quote you posted, his spren says: "I would have" implies that Szeth has not already earned the Plate. Plus, we don't see Szeth use it. I am very confused why you think Szeth is Fourth Ideal. He is on Third, and the Fourth will be complete when the crusade is complete. That is why his spren asks if he still wants to use the "cleanse Shinovar" bit as a crusade: because Szeth needs to crusade, but he could pick a different crusade if he really wanted. Just to be extra clear, Szeth is on Third Ideal. That will remain true until he completes the Ideal of Crusade, by finishing his chosen crusade, exactly as Ki outlined. Nothing in the passage contradicts what Ki told Szeth. As for the bit with the Shards and the Orders, I dunno about any of that. It isn't patently false like Szeth being Fourth Ideal, but I am just really not sure what to think of it. There's a thematic parallel, sure, but I don't know what that really would mean. The overall sentiment of Skybreakers never advancing to the higher Ideals being a bad thing and unhealthy for the Order I agree with, but the way in which it is stated is rather strange to me.

It totally does, tho. Check out my citation for this being an Ideal of hers: Beyond that, this immediately precedes her use of Soulcasting. I don't see a way that this could not be an Ideal. This is something I'm warming up to, I just can't for the life of me figure out what other Truth she swore to Pattern between killing Tyn and meeting the Chasmfiend. As for this, lets look at the wob I posted again. So its possible for Testament to be psudeo-revived at one point and back to deadeye at another. I don't think it makes sense, for where in her journey Shallan is, for her to be Fifth Oath with either spren. So I think this is sworn to Testament, if it even counts as an Ideal. Remember, all of the other Ideals I cited places where it is very explicit that her words count as an Ideal, but her killing her spren has no such statement. Nope. Third Ideal, second Truth. The first oath is not a Truth. You mix this up multiple times, however, so I'm going to assume you meant Ideal, in which case your statement is true. Otherwise, I mostly agree. Especially with Shallan maybe not breaking the First and keeping it alive for a proto-bond to Pattern or something allowing her to use her powers in between actual bonds to spren, that sounds pretty plausible.

Right, I see. I think that the Stormfather artificially expanded Eshonai's postmortal existence past its normal level to allow her the entire ride on the storm. As in, she would have left much quicker, had he not shown her mercy. The best indication of how long Radiants stick around is Teft, IMO, with his talking to Kaladin right before Kaladin's Fourth occurring a minute or so after his death. And its a really short time, actually, as Kaladin runs to the top of Urithiru with superspeed, jumps, and hasn't even hit the ground by the time Teft speaks to him. On a more meta level, being able to create a CShadow with simple magical effects seems a bit silly. The CShadows we've seen (excluding the Shades, b/c those are weird) have all been the result of direct Shardic intervention. Preservation giving Kelsier what he needed to survive, Endowment prolonging the life of the Returned, and of course Odium and Honor elevating the Fused and Heralds. It doesn't seem like something you should be able to achieve with regular means.

Many Fifth Ideal Radiants have died. We haven't seen any of their Cognitive Shadows sticking around. So it could be true, but seems unlikely. Oh, you are saying that this is immediately after swearing the Ideal? Well, given that Eshonai never swore the First audibly I'd say you're going out on a limb to say that she got to stick around because she had sworn an Ideal seconds before.