SirNoSell

I genuinely think it's just a power boost or power refinement. Jasnah's surges of teleportation definitely could require more investiture to be more effective.

"I will accept that death is a part of life..." Been his biggest hurdle

I actually posted a theory that fits with this line of reasoning aside from the soldier part because windrunners and stonewards are kind of interchangeable when it comes to martial ability and both orders are pretty much made up of soldiers.

Hi everyone, I'm not sure if this has been posted already, so go ahead and link it, delete or whatever needs to be done. I've been thinking about the way ideals progress since there's no ironclad definite way to know other than off of personalities of the characters and the information surrounding the knights. The majority of my information for this post will be referenced from this link: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/ Well, I think I may have stumbled onto something, I believe that the progression of the ideals is correlated with the clockwise direction of the Herald Wheel. I think it's best I explain using each character so we can go in order: Windrunners 2nd Ideal: “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.” —The Second Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin and Lopen) The general motto and purpose of the order. Great. 3rd Ideal: These all have a common theme between them. They each maintain what is a positive distance between what they want to do and what they need to do. There is an order that focuses on moral justice and fairness, more specifically understanding that the rules must be followed over personal attachments. Like the Skybreakers. Their order is all about fairness and it makes sense that Windrunners would add a standard to this ideal. 4th Ideal: I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!” — The Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin) Kaladin utters these words when he notices that his friend Teft is dead and he nearly resorts back to the state that did in Kholinar from Elhokar's murder. He is faced with death and will face it more. In order to progress as a leader he must accept that death is a possibility for everyone around him, no matter how hard he tries otherwise. Kaladin is always the first into a fight, he can't help himself. But when he is unable to accomplish his duty, he folds. Bravery is about moving forward despite what perceived failure one might face. While this seemed like an easy villainous act to kill Teft outright but it was actually clinical. He must have noticed how Kaladin reacted to Elhokar and then Roshone, knowing full well this would break him. Something that is a common theme among Dustbringers (I can sense the Moash Dustbringer theory fans rubbing their hands together in delight) The main goal of the Dustbringers is self-control and Kaladin will not be able to function optimally if he's not able to keep it together. 5th Ideal: I AM STORMBLESSED! We obviously don't know the last but I think some of you can tell where I'm going with this. It has been brought up on numerous occasions regarding Kaladin's medical background: He was meant to be trained as a surgeon in Kharabranth. He has trained those under him to render medical care. He talks with Syl about turning into a scalpel. He's trying to join the ardenture as well as help the mentally ill. During the tale end of RoW, we see that Kaladin had misremembered or rather misunderstood Tien's final moments and decision. This moment was instrumental in him reaching the 4th and I believe will play a bigger part in KoWT. These are all traits that an Edgedancer carries out. We know in Book 5 he is traveling to Shinovar to do some healing, in what way we don't know yet. Based on the order's focus on the simpler people, I would imagine he will be focusing on them. Other forms of overlap are that the Edgedancers were made up of nobility or at the very least had the demeanor of one and there are a number of instances in books like WoK and WoR have glimpses of his past with him being teased as a 'lordling' or 'wannabe lighteyes' to paraphrase. Both orders are noted for being scouts and accomplished weapon masters. Skybreakers 3rd Ideal: “I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath. ” —The Third Ideal of the Skybreakers, as sworn by Szeth I skipped to the third to get more to the point. The order of Dustbringers is about being brave and obedient and with this specific oath, the Skybreaker has become precise and how they pursue justice. This guideline can be a law or an individual, in this case, Dalinar. Releasers are about self-control and holding themselves accountable. Szeth has struggled very similarly to Kaladin but in an even more grotesque way. His destructive power is known throughout Roshar as the Assassin in White. The man who killed many, in particular, Gavilar the brother of the man he now serves. 4th Ideal: I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees. ” —The Fourth Ideal of the Skybreakers, as spoken by Szeth Here is where I start to stretch things a bit. From the phrasing of the words, it sounds like he is taking out an infection. The last ideal was about learning the boundaries under Dalinar's supervision and now he is acting out his sense of justice with his master's consent until he becomes his own. Edgedancers are all about remembering and this quest is very personal to him and he hasn't been home so he would find that his memory of things will be misconstrued or turn out a lot different than he remembered. Another thing to note is that if my theory is right - Both Kaladin and Szeth are on the same level of progression in the story. Kaladin is on his 4th and working on the 5th with Szeth currently working on the 4th. 5th ideal: I AM THE LAW “If you progress as a Skybreaker, you will need to become the law. To reach your ultimate potential, you must know the truth yourself, rather than relying on the crutch presented by the Third Ideal. Be aware of this.” —Szeth's highspren on the Fifth Ideal Szeth-son-son-Vallano is truthless. Was born in the Valley of Truth. The title is the next release is Knights of Wind and Truth. Need I say more? But in all honesty, will this hasn't been confirmed that I believe Truthwatchers has a resonance of empathy. They can feel people's emotions and in order to be the best law enforcer you need to balance upholding the law with the spirit of said law and how it translates to those involved. Edgedancers 3rd Ideal: “I will listen to those who have been ignored. ” —The Third Ideal of the Edgedancers, as sworn by Lift This one is connected to observing people. In particular, in this case, Lift is trying to convince Nale to see the ever storm which was the first time it forced him to acknowledge his conviction of killing Radiants was misplaced. 4th Ideal: "I will remember to care for myself/I will remember where I came from/I will remember who I used to be." Lightweavers are all about realizing who they really are and noticing the lies people tell themselves. Lift wished that she wouldn't 'grow' anymore but from a physical aspect she's growing. I imagine there is still something left in her past that we haven't come across. Maybe she will admit that she isn't a child anymore? 5th Ideal: "I will always cherish/remember what is most important about myself." Since we have so little on the Elsecaller oaths I can only go off of the purpose of the order which is to reach their potential. In terms of a character arc, this feels like it matches for someone who doesn't want to grow up but will eventually grow up while still keeping the parts of her that define her. Truthwatchers 3rd Ideal: "I will tell someone my truth." I remember towards the end of Way of Kings when Dalinar had commanded Renarin into battle, he tried to convince Dalinar otherwise because he was having his visions or he had seen something that scared him. Anyways, I think he might have sworn his ideal just before he told Dalinar and Adolin about him being a Truthwatcher in Oathbringer. Their order struggles with telling and giving others the information they possess. I even imagine that a lot of starter truthwatchers weren't upfront when they got their bond. 4th Ideal: "I will advise only on the best possible outcome." We get to the Elsecaller aspect which is about potential and the draw would be that with the vast amount of knowledge they know, they would prefer to give the information in a way that does the most good. However, I step out on a leg and say that Renarin's corrupted aspect takes root here. The scene that makes me think Renarin is close or has sworn his new ideal, was his involvement with Taravangian up to getting executed by Szeth. That scene involved T becoming a God. If that doesn't get you shardplate, I don't know what will. 5th Ideal: "I will seek to enlighten those who wish it." There is a subset of truth watchers that are linked to investigative journalists in some of the new info that came out with the release of RoW. Giving people certain amounts of information can be absolutely devastating so the Truthwatcher in question must be sure that the person they are presenting their information in the most altruistic manner even if the main consensus might disagree with it. Lightweavers 2nd truth: “What am I? I'm terrified. ” —A truth as spoken by Shallan It's obvious that most of her arc is about overcoming her fear by using various identities or telling even more painful jokes. 3rd truth: “I'm a murderer. I killed my father. ” —A truth as spoken by Shallan[7] The best connection I can come up with this is the fact that Shallan's father was the one thing stopping Shallan's growth as an individual. We knew that he had saved Shallan after her attempted murder and then covered it up. Whether overtime due to the influence of the unmade or his own personal frustration, his desire to protect Shallan turned into one of abusive control. Her brother might have died had she not poisoned and strangled her father and had she and her siblings never tried to leave, who knows where the family would have ended up. 4th truth: "I killed my spren." -Paraphrased truth spoken by Shallan I don't think it's any surprise that Shallan spoke this truth in RoW that is centered around Willshapers. Blocking out the death of a spren, especially in an environment where killing spren is the biggest taboo within Shadesmar. This is also the time when Shallan loses her persona of Veil. 5th truth: "I am RADIANT!" Shallan has one alter ego left, Radiant. The Stonewards are focused on team dynamics and working with others. We can see glimpses of this with Shallan's 'Unseen Court', her operation with Adolin in tracking down the Sons of Honor, etc. But has always kept things close to the chest with her interactions with the Ghostbloods which she ended in RoW. Up until this point she had one foot in the door and out the other by keeping her dealings a secret until the end of the latest book. It will be interesting to see how all that pans out but at this point, Shallan should be divorced of her wishy-washy attitude to things and acknowledge who she really is. Shallan the RADIANT! Elsecallers As we have no official oaths to link from, I'm just going to base what I think each ideal is off of clues in Jasnah's life. 3rd Ideal: "I will express what I think is the truth" We have a small timeline of seven years off which Jasnah has been bonded to Ivory as her flashbacks to the night of her father's death was were we get a mention of Ivory's appearance. I'm not 100% sure when she started making her secular views open but I will she sure of an ideal when she made such a thing public. 4th Ideal: "I will trust those beside me" For the longest time, Jasnah was on her own in regard to her philosophical views and her knowledge of Voidbringers. The closest was the Veristitalian, which is a group of scholars. I believe she wsore this oath in Oathbringer around when she is considering killing Renarin lest he betrays them all. 5th Ideal: "I will protect the potential for a brighter future." We see Jasnah in RoW standing on the front lines with a blade and plate on. This sort of thing is usually, Kaladin and Dalinar or even Szeth sort of thing. She is coming out of her comfort zone but Hoid reminded her that she is kneecapping herself for the sake of 'fairness' that even she can recognise is pointless. The Windrunners are some of the best warriors in the Radiants along with Stonewards so if my theory is correct, it makes sense this is where Jasnah would be. She is the current Queen of Kholinar and based on her intentions, the last monarch of Kholinar. I don't know how things will pan out but she will be wearing a crown of some sort for the foreseeable future. Willshapers 3rd Ideal: Venli at the end of RoW is now searching for a home for the singers that have left the Fused. Venli up until this point has only been figuring out a means of emancipation for herself and those who are like-minded. But the next stage will be establishing a community will all these singers that have various views despite their shared desire for independence. Most likely they will face persecution from Oduim's forces and she must now have a way of defending these people which means a militia of diverse forces must be established. 4th Ideal: Once her settlement is established, there is a high chance that they will set Venli up as their leader but she will be extremely hesitant to take it or pursue this. 5th Ideal: This will most likely be the most difficult challenge for Venli. For someone who had years of resentment for following the traditions of her tribe only to be shunted in favour of her adventurous sister was what brought on her desire to bring back the Fused. We saw this clearly in the flashbacks of her before the Alethi arrived. I think this definitely makes sense. Let me know what you guys think. Am I full of it and projecting too much or am I doing a poor imitation of someone else's post?

Something I noticed is that the Edgedancer alignment might have something to do with it. They are what I like to call the Cognitive Spiritual Healers(think D&D alignment but with Spiritual, Cognitive & Physical Realms instead of Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic, etc.) As people have said, Adolin personifies Maya rather than viewing her as a tool. He trains with her constantly and interacts with her beyond that while in the Cognitive Realm. That coupled with the spiritual aspect is what might be facilitating the bond. The only other example I can also think of is Oathbringer, Dalinar's blade. Since the sword belonged to a Stoneward, that would place the order as the Physical Spiritual. Oathbringer is a very stubborn blade. When you think about it, the number of times that blade has changed hands and returned to the owner must be some sort of record. Especially at a time when shards are more precious than ever. You also got to consider that Dalinar became a "legend" partly because of that sword and Stonewards were famously known for practicing acts of remarkable physical activity. Be that in sports or warfare. I don't know what the previous owner was like with the blade but Dalinar and Oathbringer have a deep, deep connection. Where Adolin thinks of Maya as a friend, Dalinar saw Oathbirnger as a tool. And they were fine with that.

Obi-Wan voice: "Of course, I know him, he's me."

Dalinar...while he's gotten a lot better as a person, he's overdue for some justice. He's spent more time out of prison murdering and pillaging than Kaladin did helping and protecting innocents. With Book 5 being around justice, I feel like Dalinar is going to get his reckoning for you know...genocide. I feel like he's either going to be executed or get some Braize type treatment.

Thank you, this. The irony of certain people who get passive-aggressive in these types of threads is crazy(not speaking on anyone in particular). Whenever I have conversations on issues about Shallan's character, it's always brushed off as "...we don't know enough about her yet" or "...you're just not being understanding or you don't understand mental illness." To the people that say they can empathize with Shallan's predicament because of similar experiences but in the next paragraph, assert the empathy levels of someone they don't know on the Internet, are a joke. Just because someone does not want to read about DID in detail as much as you, does not mean they are necessarily ignorant of it or don't understand the writing's value to the plot. At the end of the day, this is an escapist fantasy that takes place on a different world. Mental health in fantasy is a decent concept but you really run the risk of disconnecting with a good number of readers because let's be honest, most readers might not have the time to read a book series with over 100,000+ words AND gain a grounded understanding of the mental illnesses of the multiple main characters. Or people, just don't want their moods dulled or to be reminded of things in their lives that they wish to avoid. I'll add another caveat, I would put that burden of understanding on the book to express that. Objectively, I can't make a claim on whether or not Brandon is portraying this in the best way, nor do I wish to. If it clicked for you, that's a tick in Brandon's box but if by four books in and people still aren't being swayed, their feelings are valid also. My opinion: Shallans says and does some outlandish things that she's never held to account for. Is this exclusive to her? Nope. But it's a trend that I and others have noticed. I think her character is consistent in the sense of being someone struggling with a very complicated set of problems but her redeeming qualities are outshined by her very quasi-sociopathic tendencies in regard to people she claims to be her friends and family. Sure, she's a lightweaver, their orders don't do oaths so they can be more inconsistent, etc, etc, etc. Rant over.

I personally believe he's based off of the Hebrew Angel 'Ishim' See wikipedia excerpt:

Here's another way to look at things, through the surges: (Windrunner) Adhesion + Gravitation = The surge of keeping matter together mixed with pushing and pulling = wind (Skybreaker) Gravitation + Division = The surge of pushing and pulling matter mixed with the granulation(dust) of said matter = star What is a star if not a ball of gravity and spacedust (Dustbringer) Division + Abrasion = The surge of disintegration matter into dust mixed with the force resisting the relative motion of said matter(friction) = ash And so on...

So...Voidsmiths?

Let me phrase it like this. Amaram was dealing with the destruction of his reputation and when he tried to make up for his actions or at least try, he was shunted by Dalinar at every turn. So when an actual god pops up and tells him a one-sided truth, this just worsens him condition. Not defending the POS, but ye. That anger, combined with how much of a hypocrite Dalinar was clearly put him in a vulnerable state of mind, and Odium, doing Odium took advantage of that and had him swallow something that would take give him 'what he wanted'. I don't know about you but that circumstance of telling someone to swallow something when they're in turmoil is not healthy, whatsoever(unless it's meds). The only way we can know if it was symbiotic is if he could refuse the power once he took it and live. I don't know if that's possible and I doubt it is until maybe we see Aesudan walking around. The point I'm trying to make is if someone offers you a healthy activity like hiking when you're depressed, you're more likely to feel better mentally, physically, and emotionally in the long run. But if someone offers you drugs, sure that might help in the short run but you are now dependent on that person to provide your poison at the expense of the things I stated hiking could give you. Hope that makes sense.

Oh I get it but maybe you shouldn't be using the term 'bondsmith' or at least perhaps rephrase it. If an unmade made a connection to someone, it would have to be someone in Odium's camp. Fused, Regal, whatever because in my mind it would be parasitic and not symbiotic, the same way honor and odium treat their forces differently. Hence why I was so against the term bondsmith because they're about bringing people together in a healthy manner. I know not all unmade are the same but aside from Sja-Anat, pretty much all the unmade have been a menace(or at least from what we've gathered).

Could you explain this better, I'm still a little confused.

The connecting with Ba-Ado-Mishram is an extremely new development and no one knows how this took place whether in-universe or in general nor do we know what the rest of her abilities. Hence why I said based on what we know now, it's not possible but nothing I've seen points to that. As for why i believe Honor's surge is Adhesion is simply process of elimination. There are 9 fused orders with one surge to them each. The Windrunner equivalent (Shanay-im) - Gravitation, the Lightweaver equivalent (Mavset-im) - Transformation, etc. Ergo, there is no bondsmith voidlight equivalent order so no adhesion surge

False, the unmade have no access to adhesion(Honor's surge) therefore they can't make bondsmiths. At least not the way things are as we know.

I'll build up more on this with some stuff I found out. This is the following line: Both words I highlighted have to relate to Lightweavers. Blood is their soul casting and body focus and the head of lines is pretty much an on-point description of a cryptic spren. Dai-gonarthis is also believed to be based off of Daigon, the Canaanite God whose wife is Shalash. I'm not sure if this helps anything but couldn't help to flex my miscellaneous wisdom

I actually lean Edgedancer: Religious Strong sense of community duty despite it being one sided Background with healing from Lirin You get my point.

Hi guys, have been away from the SA for a while and recently wanted to put out ideas I've only been revisiting. Feel free to comment on what you like, I've only put so much depth into this but I felt I wouldn't get it out in time so here goes: I believe that we know one of the Dustbringer ideals already. Some people are familiar with the following quote provided by Sando: "I will stand when others fall" I believe this is a Dustbringer ideal and I would back up this claim with the third ideal Dalinar spoke about: “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. ” The wording fall comes up in both of these oaths. For context, it has been theorised by some that the oaths Dalinar are speaking are closely tied to the "Honor Arc" of the Herald wheel. Quick Side Note: As for the second ideal, I believe it is based on the Windrunner order. “I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together. ” Reason: The wording 'unite' makes me think of adhesion. Not very in-depth, more of a hot take. The best way to protect people is to put them with other people so that their strengths can cover their weaknesses. And the best way for a group of people to protect each other is to appoint someone that is the most capable of leadership. It's also no secret that the next book that will come out at the time of this post is about the Skybreakers so I'm trying to do a flimsy process of elimination. That's when he will swear the fourth. Side Note over: Reasons why I think the quote/ideal is related to the Releasers. Most people attribute it to a Willshaper or Stoneward because of the wording and how the orders are Resolute and Dependable. I believe that bravery is actually the most associated with it. "I will stand when others fall", you think of that in a physical sense but you need to consider the figurative aspect. Standing up for others or especially yourself is courageous, it makes you brave. People will continue to fall and fall and cowardly avoid the difficulties they face but someone who stands in the name of adversity is the ideal of bravery. Responsibility- The word responsibility is used in Dalinar's third ideal and we know since RoW that Dustbringers are themed towards Responsibility - SN: A fire-based spren made an appearance in the same book of the reveal if that counts for anything. Risk takers - I believe that since the order is filled with people who are strong-willed and like to crack things open to see how they work. That along with the self-control theme means that they would deal with a lot of risk management. I actually looked up a bit of engineering risk management and it's a very interesting field I won't dare try to butcher. The point is, with the great amount of power they wield, they will inevitably cause more damage than they may have intended. Learning from your mistakes is a great way to mitigate said risks. 1. Dustbringer Ideals 2nd Ideal of Bravery - "I will stand when others fall in the face of danger" 3rd Ideal of Accountability? - "I will take responsibility for what I have done", "I will make own up to my mistakes". 4th Ideal of Service ?" - "I will stand by " " no matter the direness. 5th Ideal of the Guardian - "I am Self Control...?" 2nd Ideal - The radiant will usually start out as someone who will conquer their fear, I like to imagine those in this order make have caused some irrevocable or deep damage against something or someone and they want to make amends. They are risk-takers and I also believe they become initiates like the WRs and SBs as this is arguably the most dangerous order in the arc and the entire circle save the Bondsmiths. Therefore I don't think it would be a stretch to find out that they get their shard blades here. My reasoning for this: I believe they would honestly classify a shard blade as less dangerous than their surges. We know that their orders gets their surges later than most. It could be a test to see how they use their shard blade and if they use it to do more damage than is necessary. 3rd Ideal - I believe this is where the person must answer for a past misstep or mistake they've taken recently. They will need to come to terms with answering for their mistake. I think maybe carrying out a sentence or repairing something the best they can. We also know that the Division surge has been awarded here from knowledge of Malata and if we were to use her as an example, precision and staying within limits have been achieved if not mostly achieved. 4th ideal - I notice that the orders of the "Honor Arc - Windrunner, Skybreaker, Dustbringer" are hierarchical due to them dealing with power, both physical and political. Here they receive Abrasion which means they get access to explosives and pyrotechnics now. They also get their plate here most likely as well but I'll talk more about that a bit later. They are in positions with a lot of power so that means they have to dedicate themselves to something other or run the risk of using them for selfish destructive reasons. The scale has now tilted in favor of obedience than bravery. 5th ideal - They are in complete control of all their surges and themselves. Don't have much to go on for this. Anyways, you guys get the point I'm trying to make More Theories: Dustbringer Plate Uses: Propel themselves with their palms forward for increased speed They could use the fingers on their gauntlets like cutting tools? Self-Explosion...? Duties: I believe that 'generally' radiants followed their patron's role and Chana was known as the guardians. They dealt with threats to people's safety in what way they could: Battlefield - Chana was known for being quick so it's no surprise they could glide across the battlefield as mobile or stationary artillery Settlement Defenses - They could easily fire rays of heat from atop fortifications Domestic disaster - They could act as emergency services in the case of things like a collapsed building. Chana is also well-known for Here is also a pretty good representation of what I think the surges would look like: I might add more in the future but for now, this is as much as I can scrunge up for now. Thanks for being patient enough to entertain my ramblings and please add what you think might be more logical or if I didn't go into something in-depth enough. Edit: Another interpretation of "I shall stand where others fall" is that those who are falling are the victims of some mishap or crime and the Dustbringer is standing for them or by them in some way.

I actually think that Skybreakers create clouds since their essence is smoke and the dust particles from division with gravity moving them around that is extremely in line with clouds. Also, I think they are able to use shockwaves, thunderclaps with their surges but don't know how to word it. I actually believe lightning is a 5th ideal power that I can't fully explain either. Since the Honor 'Arc' of the Radiant Order wheel involves the Windrunner - Air, Skybreaker - Smoke, Dustbringer - Fire, it stands to reason those together make thunder clouds, and where there's thunder, there's lightning.

I'd like to double down and/ push back on a few of these The workform that the singers use is powered by a gravitationspren. Traits for these include greater obedience, greater difficulty of causing violence and are more likely to find peaceful solutions. Truthwatchers > Rain Spren(The have the appearance of glowing, ankle-height, blue candles that, despite seeming to melt, never grow shorter, with a SINGLE EYE at the top of their body. They often stand in puddles.) I also believe that these are the same spren used for meditationform but I have no proof. Meditationform can bestow improved speech capabilities, or better ability to convince or bestow information upon others. I'd argue painspren as that's what singers use for warform, reasoning is the same as the other singer bond spren theories.

"I cannot protect others from themselves, so I will protect those I can by leading by example." Or something like that...

Well it was a while when I made it but it's basically a form of intangibility that can be used banish or disrupt connections. They aren't like Bondsmiths obviously but they have a small inclining of said power can hamper connections with voidspren and the saintwalker would use that to help the person break free. The corrupted version is basically disrupting a voidbringer's connection to their voidspren and using that power to fuel their surges but this has serious drawbacks.

Truthwatchers - Keenspren Skybreakers - Starspren

Funny, I kind of see Nale as more of an anti-hero.