Mzuka

I think this is because Ishar shifted the weight of the entire Oathpact onto Taln; he became an extreme, almost caricature of his Divine Attribute, while the rest of the Herald's become the exact opposite. With Jezrien, a beggar seems the antithesis of a leader (if a king is the epitome of it). And if you subscribe to the Liss = Vedel theory, that's a corruption of the Loving/Healing aspect. Pailiah is 'Learned', so maybe she's the woman in the asylum who keeps writing in her own faeces

So I'm not sure if this is a theory that's already out there and I'm late to the party - it's probably something a lot of people have speculated about, but I came across this quote in a WOBs Shardcast recently and decided to gather all of the evidence in one place: The panelists and questioner didn't remmeber the scene clearly (it's a confusing one), as Venli actually notes that the spren of the thunderclasts do not seem like regular Fused: From WoK days, there have always been some parallels between thunderclasts and Fused: we see thunderclasts in the prologue, and then the Alethi assume that the chasmfiends are the Parshendi gods. Pre-Oathbringer, a lot of fans thought chasmfiends might actually be thunderclasts, though this was debunked. There are, however, some further parallels between the two: the thunderclasts clearly have a degree of intelligence, as seen in the Battle of Thaylen City when one of them targets the King's Drop (receiving instructions from Odium via a Fused). The same creature is smart enough in its clash with Adolin to concentrate on him, identifying his Shardblade as the greatest threat to it: In WoR, we get Kaladin and Shallan's perspective as they face a chasmfiend. The creature is cunning enough to wait for them, rather than going away once they hide in the slit in the wall. Kaladin observes: We also have one more instance - that I could find - of a character picking up on similarities between the two - this time when Adolin faces the chasmfiend: We get a description of this head from Venli at the end of RoW: The arrowface reminds me of the shape of the mandras who inhabit chasmfiends and other greatshells, enabling them to defy gravity. As for why the spren of ancient chasmfiends - and possibly other greatshells - would be assisting the souls of ancient singers in an eternal war against the humans, the scene quoted above may hold the answer. At the end of RoW, Venli finds the remaining listeners and discovers that they have somehow bonded or befriended the chasmfiends, who helped them survive the chasms. As we are often told, new things are made from old things. It seems plausible that the ancient singers may have had this ability, as this kind of symbiosis is common for Rosharan species. For singers, this bond may grant them protection, while for chasmfiends - and greatshells in general - it might increase their intelligence/cognition, similar to the Nahel bond: new things are made from old things. We have seen in Rhythm of War that Chiri-Chiri - a larkin - has developed her intelligence to the point that she can speak with "mouth noises". If the ancient singers had this bond with chasmfiends and other greatshells back at the time of the First Desolation, and it did indeed enhance their intelligence, then I think Odium may have Elevated these greatshells into what we now see as thunderclasts. When they manifest, they rip free of the earth, forming a great shell of stone around their spirit.

Ok I see where you're coming from, think I'm convinced. The idea of this Shard becoming sapient and going on that revenge tour is really interesting as well, I kind of want to see that happen.

Has it developed a mind of its own yet? I thought that for a Shard to do that the power has to be left alone for some time, and Rayse had it since the Shattering until Taravangian picked it up. It is really strange that Odium takes powerful emotions away, I like your theory. I've always seen a parallel between those exchanges and the Adolin/Maya scene in ROW (Sacrifice). Adolin is feeling a lot of strong emotion, righteous anger etc. and he gives Maya strength. It's almost like the opposite: he feels Maya's pain and gives her strength. My crack theory is that this is related to Odium becoming a true part of Roshar (through BAM etc.) and that we're seeing a kind of Radiant bond that involves that power and not just Honor/Cultivation.

100% @StormingTexan plus his tone is clearly coy/joking in the clip. @Yumiya the SA5 prologue all but conformed it, especially when you consider the colour of Chana's hair being specifically brought up in the prologue- there is no reason to do that as a writer unless it's relevant, particularly when you consider how Brandon views foreshadowing. There's also the timing of the death (we know Shallan's Mum died on the same day), and how neatly this explains why her mum tried to kill her (probably following Ishar's instructions like Nale). Also love how Brandon scattered number of little clues and winks throughout the text, such as: Chana is only mentioned by name twice in the first 4 books, and both involve Shallan - either in reference or conversation. For me, the prologue was as close to definitive confirmation of her parentage as we can get prior to the release.

There's only one piece of official artwork that depicts Shalash with white hair though (Oathbringer, I think), and none show her with the red scarf - those are all fan drawings. And I would take the text as canon over artwork, and in the books she's described as having dark hair - and never with a scarf. All the same, Shalash is a Herald so I assume she was involved, though I don't know in what capacity. As for the Natan people, them being descended from the Siah is pretty clear and it's what the story is about on the surface - I didn't see any point in rehashing it in the theory. I did get into how I think the Siah fit into the history with the Siah in this reply though: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108858-ba-ado-mishram-the-first-desolation-the-heralds-queen-tsa-and-the-girl-who-looked-up/?do=findComment&comment=1365478 Long story short I believe it ties into what Ishar is up to right now with his spren experiments.

Yup that's why I think she's a good candidate. Also from a writerly perspective, putting Liss there and having no payoff seems pointless - and if she is Vedel, what other purpose does she serve/what could she have been placed there to do? The female Heralds must have been up to something.

Who, Liss? We only meet her in the Jasnah prologue of Words of Radiance. Jasnah pays her to remain in the palace watching over Aesudan: Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 24). Orion. Kindle Edition. We know Aeusdan was in Kholinar until her death in Oathbringer (well after Taln came and went), and get no other mention of Liss in subsequent books. We don't see any sign of Liss when Kaladin and the others reach Kholinar in OB, so Liss/Vedel was either laying low or she'd already scattered - maybe after Taln's arrival. Another small piece of signposting that Liss might be Vedel is the guard Jasnha finds her with: Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 23). Orion. Kindle Edition. He's Veden: each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with a Radiant Order - and, therefore Herald - during the Herladic Epochs (Alethela was associated with the Windrunners/Jezrien etc.). We don't have confirmation of which Kingdom was the home of the Edgedancers/Vedel, but I'd bet money it's the one whose capital is Veden City. And as @En-priestess noted:

My pet crack theory is that Liss (the assassin with an Honorblade) either has it or got Taln to dismiss it. She has a Shardblade handy that she could have given to Taln, which would explain where he got one. She was also in Kholinar at the time (asx far as we know) since Jasnah planted her in the Palace to spy on Aesudan disguised as a maid (on the night of Gavilar's murder). As for why she would do this, and how she would even know about Taln - I subscribe to the Liss = the Herald Vedel theory. A Herald whose Divine Attributes are "Loving, Healing" going Falling into an assassin seems logical, and Liss is described as having dark hair (same as Vedel). We know she isn't one of the Heralds who recclaimed her Honorblade by the time Szeth left, and have no indication that she has since, so the Blade she carries wouldn't be an Honorblade. Now either she got Taln to dismiss it and gave him her ordinary Shardblade to cover him (as an apology for screwing him over half a millenia ago?), orrrr she switched them out for some reason.

This is very detailed and comprehensive, consider me convinced. I'd like to read the book sooner rather than later too, so I'm definitely not gonna complain!

Thanks @Argent this is very interesting. I think I watched the stream with the WOB but didn't know what the question was based on. That's some heavy-duty etymological analysis., damn...the fact that everyone came to similar ideas regarding BAM's nature based off that is really cool and telling. One thought I have is on the breakdown of the name meaning, specifically the "Ba" part of it, and it's parallel's with the master-apprentice relationship in Thaylenah: What if the original word the it is derived from wasn't a parent-child relationship, but a master-slave relationship? Thinking about how Kalak refers to BAM as 'Mishram' not 'Ba-Ado-Mishram'. If my theory is correct about the Heralds knowing her before she was Unmade, then this could be done out of familiarity: perhaps she only got the 'Ba-Ado' suffixes after being Unmade (same might be true of some of the others)? A new name seems appropriate for such a drastic shift in Identity. In that case, her being named the 'child of the Light Cultivation and Honor' after being corrupted by Odium doesn't make much sense, but 'enslaved/Taken from the Light of Cultivation and Honor' (or something denoting a slave made from their 'Light') is appropriate. Of course, Kalak might have just been using shorthand and her name could have been BAM from the get-go. Either way the linguistics seem to support the theory

Hahaha thank you! The answer is it took several days typing out bits and pieces when I had a minute. Didn't really mean for it to be that long but I kept finding more interesting connections and questions while looking at the stories.

True we have seen singers form a Nahel bond with spren, but these kind of bonds didn't exist until the spren started mimicing what Honor did with the Heralds. The Stoneshaping that the Dawnsingers did use the same surge, but they didn't form Nahel bonds. I believe this Desolation is the first time a singer Radiant has ever been form, given Leshwi's shock when she saw Venli's spren. For the point about the highstorm, I think Brandon has said they predated even Honor and Cultivation's arrival. They might not have been Invested though, so perhaps that's the change that occurred (though I don't know how singers would Stoneshape without Stormlight). It's also possible that spren were not a heavily in the Physical in all of Roshar prior to humans arrival. We see in the books that humans attract lesser spren - emotion spren and all that - much more than singers. Perhaps prior to the Heralds meddling. spren interacted with the Physical Realm much less directly? On this, while I agree that the Fused appeared before the Oathpact, that does not mean that the Heralds were not tampering with Surges prior to this - it was exactly that that led to the destruction of Ashyn. "A Bondsmith [Ishar] bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better.” - Syl (Rhythm of War, Interlude 1) Ishar is fond of fiddling with Connection (lol) and pulling things between realms - even to this day. Maybe he himself formed a bond with Mishram, or one of the other Heralds did (I actually think Chana is another one who might have been heavily involved but that's a tangent). I don't know how Surgebinding worked pre-Nahel bond but if anyone could, it's Ishar. Regardless, this could be what pissed the Fused off. This is what's really blowing my mind though cause I hadn't been able to parse through that connection. The Siah Aimians have always seemed similar to spren (what with the wrong way shadows, sculpting their bodies). They particularly resemble honorspren in skin tone, and their nails etc. - especially after RoW when we see what an honorspren looks like pulled into the Physical Realm for real. Dalinar even initially mistakes an honorspren corpse for a Natan man. Before that, I couldn't see how any spren would interbreed with humans so it seemed irrelevant, despite the fact that the crux of Tsa's story is her having hybrid child with a god/spren (Honor's moon, of all of them). Spren want to get closer to the Physical Realm: that's the whole deal with the Nahel bond, and is what the listeners and singers see as their reason for choosing humans over singers. But Mishim/Mishram wants so much more in the story: she wants to physically come down and enjoy the world of mortals: "she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35) Perhaps Ishar helped her and some other spren - forefathers of the Siah? - temporarily experience the Physical, in the flesh? Which is definitely something the singers couldn't offer: "We can't provide what the humans lend/Though broth are we, their meat is men" (Words of Radiance, 32) Note the language of the listener song: it's temporary, just as Mishim's exchange with Tsa is temporary. It seems like a bit too much of a crack theory, but consider the fact that Ishar is literally doing this exact thing right now (his Essence is Flesh by the way, shoutout @Argent). What I can't figure out is how they would have done this back in ancient times, cause if they were able to do it back then surely Ishar wouldn't be so bad at it now? Unless they had a tool then they don't have now, one that would somehow make transforming spren into Physical beings possible. A magical tool of transformation, such the Dawnshard of Change? The one that was hidden in Aimia, with the Siah. I'm gonna stop there because my speculation is going to get tooooo wild haha. A couple of other interesting questions maybe someone else can think about: what happened to all the smart spren that existed before the humans? The ones that the singers imagined, with four genders. Cause those are the ones that I assume would be closest to Mishram, magically speaking.. A lot of them might have been bonded to Radiants (which could be why they decided to break their bonds when they bound Mishram - or to do with whatever they feared). "I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren." - Kalak (Rhythm of War, 94) Who are the Nahel spren? I've always thought of it as the sapient spren, which I'm sure it does mean as well, but where did that term come from historically? How does it tie to Mishram, and the original betrayal of the spren? Why did Ishar think that forming new Nahel bonds would trigger a Desolation? I feel like he may have been the reasoning force behind the Recreance, since at least Nale and Kalak were there and they seem to take his lead on Realmatics.

I do think the events could have blended together as these things do - and Shinovar was basically an extension of Ashyn on Roshar. For the Honor's Moon stuff, for sure and I think each of the moons align with one of the Shards here. I think it's more thematic than anything though, and even a bit of a red herring as its the connection I initially drew. I agree that the Unmaking of Mishram was probably a big step towards Odium becoming part of Roshar. Really like the idea of Unmaking Mishram establishing the Connection between singers and Odium! Seems very plausible. For the Kaladin scene in particular, I read the yellow eyes as a Connection to Odium due to his emotional state: Odium was trying to make Kal his champion and the death of Teft had put him in a vulnerable state. But the two don't have to be exclusive. I feel like it makes sense mechanically. I don't think freeing Mishram would reverse the effect though cause as @bmcclure7 said, she would still be an Unmade. Thanks! Honestly, I hadn't connected the Tsa story and all these dots to the Sibling at all until recently. If it's true it adds some new context to why the Sibling seemed so resentful of Melishi's plan to trap BAM, and why they withdrew after her binding.

If season 1 of a SA adaptation were to air around the same as Stormlight 6 came out, I think we would be fine (even if there wasn't a 10 year break). Large scale shows take time to produce so by the time the show reached season 6 (assuming a book a season), he'd probably be on book 9. With the time jump accounted for and the possibility for a TV adaptation to be split into 2 series, they could probably adapt Stormlight soon after book 5 comes out and then just wait until he was several books into the back half to produce the sequel series. Hmmm to be honest that still seems pretty tight to me. SA5 is set for 2024, so even if he wrote and released Mistborn Era 3, Elantris and Nightblood in 5 years, he would be finished with them in 2029. It's at least a year and a half from when he starts writing a Stormlight book to when it's released, so that's mid 2030 at best - and that's if he starts writing SA6 at the beginning of 2029. Also, I have a feeling the Mistborn 3 books will be a bit longer than the W&W averages. Could be balanced out by the fact tht he's writing them all through though. It's ages away regardless and I feel like this arc is going to have satisfying conclusion to make the wait bearable - especially with all the dope stuff he's releasing in between. @Child of Hodor and @agrabes I guess it comes down to opinion, neither of us can say how Brandon really feels about writing SA5. And I completely agree with focusing my excitement on what's coming next (even though I'mn hype and hopeful for later era cosmere).