Mzuka

I think this is because Ishar shifted the weight of the entire Oathpact onto Taln; he became an extreme, almost caricature of his Divine Attribute, while the rest of the Herald's become the exact opposite. With Jezrien, a beggar seems the antithesis of a leader (if a king is the epitome of it). And if you subscribe to the Liss = Vedel theory, that's a corruption of the Loving/Healing aspect. Pailiah is 'Learned', so maybe she's the woman in the asylum who keeps writing in her own faeces

So I'm not sure if this is a theory that's already out there and I'm late to the party - it's probably something a lot of people have speculated about, but I came across this quote in a WOBs Shardcast recently and decided to gather all of the evidence in one place: The panelists and questioner didn't remmeber the scene clearly (it's a confusing one), as Venli actually notes that the spren of the thunderclasts do not seem like regular Fused: From WoK days, there have always been some parallels between thunderclasts and Fused: we see thunderclasts in the prologue, and then the Alethi assume that the chasmfiends are the Parshendi gods. Pre-Oathbringer, a lot of fans thought chasmfiends might actually be thunderclasts, though this was debunked. There are, however, some further parallels between the two: the thunderclasts clearly have a degree of intelligence, as seen in the Battle of Thaylen City when one of them targets the King's Drop (receiving instructions from Odium via a Fused). The same creature is smart enough in its clash with Adolin to concentrate on him, identifying his Shardblade as the greatest threat to it: In WoR, we get Kaladin and Shallan's perspective as they face a chasmfiend. The creature is cunning enough to wait for them, rather than going away once they hide in the slit in the wall. Kaladin observes: We also have one more instance - that I could find - of a character picking up on similarities between the two - this time when Adolin faces the chasmfiend: We get a description of this head from Venli at the end of RoW: The arrowface reminds me of the shape of the mandras who inhabit chasmfiends and other greatshells, enabling them to defy gravity. As for why the spren of ancient chasmfiends - and possibly other greatshells - would be assisting the souls of ancient singers in an eternal war against the humans, the scene quoted above may hold the answer. At the end of RoW, Venli finds the remaining listeners and discovers that they have somehow bonded or befriended the chasmfiends, who helped them survive the chasms. As we are often told, new things are made from old things. It seems plausible that the ancient singers may have had this ability, as this kind of symbiosis is common for Rosharan species. For singers, this bond may grant them protection, while for chasmfiends - and greatshells in general - it might increase their intelligence/cognition, similar to the Nahel bond: new things are made from old things. We have seen in Rhythm of War that Chiri-Chiri - a larkin - has developed her intelligence to the point that she can speak with "mouth noises". If the ancient singers had this bond with chasmfiends and other greatshells back at the time of the First Desolation, and it did indeed enhance their intelligence, then I think Odium may have Elevated these greatshells into what we now see as thunderclasts. When they manifest, they rip free of the earth, forming a great shell of stone around their spirit.

Ok I see where you're coming from, think I'm convinced. The idea of this Shard becoming sapient and going on that revenge tour is really interesting as well, I kind of want to see that happen.

Has it developed a mind of its own yet? I thought that for a Shard to do that the power has to be left alone for some time, and Rayse had it since the Shattering until Taravangian picked it up. It is really strange that Odium takes powerful emotions away, I like your theory. I've always seen a parallel between those exchanges and the Adolin/Maya scene in ROW (Sacrifice). Adolin is feeling a lot of strong emotion, righteous anger etc. and he gives Maya strength. It's almost like the opposite: he feels Maya's pain and gives her strength. My crack theory is that this is related to Odium becoming a true part of Roshar (through BAM etc.) and that we're seeing a kind of Radiant bond that involves that power and not just Honor/Cultivation.

100% @StormingTexan plus his tone is clearly coy/joking in the clip. @Yumiya the SA5 prologue all but conformed it, especially when you consider the colour of Chana's hair being specifically brought up in the prologue- there is no reason to do that as a writer unless it's relevant, particularly when you consider how Brandon views foreshadowing. There's also the timing of the death (we know Shallan's Mum died on the same day), and how neatly this explains why her mum tried to kill her (probably following Ishar's instructions like Nale). Also love how Brandon scattered number of little clues and winks throughout the text, such as: Chana is only mentioned by name twice in the first 4 books, and both involve Shallan - either in reference or conversation. For me, the prologue was as close to definitive confirmation of her parentage as we can get prior to the release.

There's only one piece of official artwork that depicts Shalash with white hair though (Oathbringer, I think), and none show her with the red scarf - those are all fan drawings. And I would take the text as canon over artwork, and in the books she's described as having dark hair - and never with a scarf. All the same, Shalash is a Herald so I assume she was involved, though I don't know in what capacity. As for the Natan people, them being descended from the Siah is pretty clear and it's what the story is about on the surface - I didn't see any point in rehashing it in the theory. I did get into how I think the Siah fit into the history with the Siah in this reply though: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/108858-ba-ado-mishram-the-first-desolation-the-heralds-queen-tsa-and-the-girl-who-looked-up/?do=findComment&comment=1365478 Long story short I believe it ties into what Ishar is up to right now with his spren experiments.

Yup that's why I think she's a good candidate. Also from a writerly perspective, putting Liss there and having no payoff seems pointless - and if she is Vedel, what other purpose does she serve/what could she have been placed there to do? The female Heralds must have been up to something.

Who, Liss? We only meet her in the Jasnah prologue of Words of Radiance. Jasnah pays her to remain in the palace watching over Aesudan: Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 24). Orion. Kindle Edition. We know Aeusdan was in Kholinar until her death in Oathbringer (well after Taln came and went), and get no other mention of Liss in subsequent books. We don't see any sign of Liss when Kaladin and the others reach Kholinar in OB, so Liss/Vedel was either laying low or she'd already scattered - maybe after Taln's arrival. Another small piece of signposting that Liss might be Vedel is the guard Jasnha finds her with: Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 23). Orion. Kindle Edition. He's Veden: each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with a Radiant Order - and, therefore Herald - during the Herladic Epochs (Alethela was associated with the Windrunners/Jezrien etc.). We don't have confirmation of which Kingdom was the home of the Edgedancers/Vedel, but I'd bet money it's the one whose capital is Veden City. And as @En-priestess noted:

My pet crack theory is that Liss (the assassin with an Honorblade) either has it or got Taln to dismiss it. She has a Shardblade handy that she could have given to Taln, which would explain where he got one. She was also in Kholinar at the time (asx far as we know) since Jasnah planted her in the Palace to spy on Aesudan disguised as a maid (on the night of Gavilar's murder). As for why she would do this, and how she would even know about Taln - I subscribe to the Liss = the Herald Vedel theory. A Herald whose Divine Attributes are "Loving, Healing" going Falling into an assassin seems logical, and Liss is described as having dark hair (same as Vedel). We know she isn't one of the Heralds who recclaimed her Honorblade by the time Szeth left, and have no indication that she has since, so the Blade she carries wouldn't be an Honorblade. Now either she got Taln to dismiss it and gave him her ordinary Shardblade to cover him (as an apology for screwing him over half a millenia ago?), orrrr she switched them out for some reason.

This is very detailed and comprehensive, consider me convinced. I'd like to read the book sooner rather than later too, so I'm definitely not gonna complain!

Thanks @Argent this is very interesting. I think I watched the stream with the WOB but didn't know what the question was based on. That's some heavy-duty etymological analysis., damn...the fact that everyone came to similar ideas regarding BAM's nature based off that is really cool and telling. One thought I have is on the breakdown of the name meaning, specifically the "Ba" part of it, and it's parallel's with the master-apprentice relationship in Thaylenah: What if the original word the it is derived from wasn't a parent-child relationship, but a master-slave relationship? Thinking about how Kalak refers to BAM as 'Mishram' not 'Ba-Ado-Mishram'. If my theory is correct about the Heralds knowing her before she was Unmade, then this could be done out of familiarity: perhaps she only got the 'Ba-Ado' suffixes after being Unmade (same might be true of some of the others)? A new name seems appropriate for such a drastic shift in Identity. In that case, her being named the 'child of the Light Cultivation and Honor' after being corrupted by Odium doesn't make much sense, but 'enslaved/Taken from the Light of Cultivation and Honor' (or something denoting a slave made from their 'Light') is appropriate. Of course, Kalak might have just been using shorthand and her name could have been BAM from the get-go. Either way the linguistics seem to support the theory

Hahaha thank you! The answer is it took several days typing out bits and pieces when I had a minute. Didn't really mean for it to be that long but I kept finding more interesting connections and questions while looking at the stories.

True we have seen singers form a Nahel bond with spren, but these kind of bonds didn't exist until the spren started mimicing what Honor did with the Heralds. The Stoneshaping that the Dawnsingers did use the same surge, but they didn't form Nahel bonds. I believe this Desolation is the first time a singer Radiant has ever been form, given Leshwi's shock when she saw Venli's spren. For the point about the highstorm, I think Brandon has said they predated even Honor and Cultivation's arrival. They might not have been Invested though, so perhaps that's the change that occurred (though I don't know how singers would Stoneshape without Stormlight). It's also possible that spren were not a heavily in the Physical in all of Roshar prior to humans arrival. We see in the books that humans attract lesser spren - emotion spren and all that - much more than singers. Perhaps prior to the Heralds meddling. spren interacted with the Physical Realm much less directly? On this, while I agree that the Fused appeared before the Oathpact, that does not mean that the Heralds were not tampering with Surges prior to this - it was exactly that that led to the destruction of Ashyn. "A Bondsmith [Ishar] bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better.” - Syl (Rhythm of War, Interlude 1) Ishar is fond of fiddling with Connection (lol) and pulling things between realms - even to this day. Maybe he himself formed a bond with Mishram, or one of the other Heralds did (I actually think Chana is another one who might have been heavily involved but that's a tangent). I don't know how Surgebinding worked pre-Nahel bond but if anyone could, it's Ishar. Regardless, this could be what pissed the Fused off. This is what's really blowing my mind though cause I hadn't been able to parse through that connection. The Siah Aimians have always seemed similar to spren (what with the wrong way shadows, sculpting their bodies). They particularly resemble honorspren in skin tone, and their nails etc. - especially after RoW when we see what an honorspren looks like pulled into the Physical Realm for real. Dalinar even initially mistakes an honorspren corpse for a Natan man. Before that, I couldn't see how any spren would interbreed with humans so it seemed irrelevant, despite the fact that the crux of Tsa's story is her having hybrid child with a god/spren (Honor's moon, of all of them). Spren want to get closer to the Physical Realm: that's the whole deal with the Nahel bond, and is what the listeners and singers see as their reason for choosing humans over singers. But Mishim/Mishram wants so much more in the story: she wants to physically come down and enjoy the world of mortals: "she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35) Perhaps Ishar helped her and some other spren - forefathers of the Siah? - temporarily experience the Physical, in the flesh? Which is definitely something the singers couldn't offer: "We can't provide what the humans lend/Though broth are we, their meat is men" (Words of Radiance, 32) Note the language of the listener song: it's temporary, just as Mishim's exchange with Tsa is temporary. It seems like a bit too much of a crack theory, but consider the fact that Ishar is literally doing this exact thing right now (his Essence is Flesh by the way, shoutout @Argent). What I can't figure out is how they would have done this back in ancient times, cause if they were able to do it back then surely Ishar wouldn't be so bad at it now? Unless they had a tool then they don't have now, one that would somehow make transforming spren into Physical beings possible. A magical tool of transformation, such the Dawnshard of Change? The one that was hidden in Aimia, with the Siah. I'm gonna stop there because my speculation is going to get tooooo wild haha. A couple of other interesting questions maybe someone else can think about: what happened to all the smart spren that existed before the humans? The ones that the singers imagined, with four genders. Cause those are the ones that I assume would be closest to Mishram, magically speaking.. A lot of them might have been bonded to Radiants (which could be why they decided to break their bonds when they bound Mishram - or to do with whatever they feared). "I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren." - Kalak (Rhythm of War, 94) Who are the Nahel spren? I've always thought of it as the sapient spren, which I'm sure it does mean as well, but where did that term come from historically? How does it tie to Mishram, and the original betrayal of the spren? Why did Ishar think that forming new Nahel bonds would trigger a Desolation? I feel like he may have been the reasoning force behind the Recreance, since at least Nale and Kalak were there and they seem to take his lead on Realmatics.

I do think the events could have blended together as these things do - and Shinovar was basically an extension of Ashyn on Roshar. For the Honor's Moon stuff, for sure and I think each of the moons align with one of the Shards here. I think it's more thematic than anything though, and even a bit of a red herring as its the connection I initially drew. I agree that the Unmaking of Mishram was probably a big step towards Odium becoming part of Roshar. Really like the idea of Unmaking Mishram establishing the Connection between singers and Odium! Seems very plausible. For the Kaladin scene in particular, I read the yellow eyes as a Connection to Odium due to his emotional state: Odium was trying to make Kal his champion and the death of Teft had put him in a vulnerable state. But the two don't have to be exclusive. I feel like it makes sense mechanically. I don't think freeing Mishram would reverse the effect though cause as @bmcclure7 said, she would still be an Unmade. Thanks! Honestly, I hadn't connected the Tsa story and all these dots to the Sibling at all until recently. If it's true it adds some new context to why the Sibling seemed so resentful of Melishi's plan to trap BAM, and why they withdrew after her binding.

If season 1 of a SA adaptation were to air around the same as Stormlight 6 came out, I think we would be fine (even if there wasn't a 10 year break). Large scale shows take time to produce so by the time the show reached season 6 (assuming a book a season), he'd probably be on book 9. With the time jump accounted for and the possibility for a TV adaptation to be split into 2 series, they could probably adapt Stormlight soon after book 5 comes out and then just wait until he was several books into the back half to produce the sequel series. Hmmm to be honest that still seems pretty tight to me. SA5 is set for 2024, so even if he wrote and released Mistborn Era 3, Elantris and Nightblood in 5 years, he would be finished with them in 2029. It's at least a year and a half from when he starts writing a Stormlight book to when it's released, so that's mid 2030 at best - and that's if he starts writing SA6 at the beginning of 2029. Also, I have a feeling the Mistborn 3 books will be a bit longer than the W&W averages. Could be balanced out by the fact tht he's writing them all through though. It's ages away regardless and I feel like this arc is going to have satisfying conclusion to make the wait bearable - especially with all the dope stuff he's releasing in between. @Child of Hodor and @agrabes I guess it comes down to opinion, neither of us can say how Brandon really feels about writing SA5. And I completely agree with focusing my excitement on what's coming next (even though I'mn hype and hopeful for later era cosmere).

You're implying that it's not his work ethic that's in doubt, but his focus/interest, which ignores Chaos's point that the cosmere is Brandon's primary love. Finishing this story as a whole - which the Stormlight back 5 is essential for - is his main goal. Saying he's not eager to write more Stormlight seems pretty wild and baseless. He has discussed numerous times the amount of books he has left to write in his lifetime to finish and the schedule he needs to adhere to to finish it - and he's not only proven his work ethic, but his time management. If there's an author/creator in the world that's earned the benefit for the doubt from his audience, it's Sando. This stays true even with Hollywood knocking - we've been expecting adaptations to come into play for a while now so it's not exactly a surprise. I imagine that part of the reason it's been so upsetting for his schedule this last year is cause it's early stages and he hasn't yet figured out how to incorporate this into his routine. I'm sure he will. I don't think he would risk leaving Stormlight/other parts of the cosmere unfinished simply so he could adapt stories he already finished. Also, Stormlight 6 2031 is not bad at all (too optimistic if you ask me). Book 5 comes out 2024, and in that gap he's writing and releasing the entire Mistborn Era 3 Trilogy, and who knows what else. Doing that, and writing and releasing a Stormlight book in 7 years? That would be Herculean. Feel like we would be getting just a bit spoiled as a fandom if we complained about that.

Thanks! And yeah that theory was rock solid.

Like a spren of Rhythms/songs? That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure to be honest...but it could fit with how the Sibling couldn't hear their song after the imprisonment (thoguh that could just be cause Honor is dead). And the Sibling does say that Mishram's imprisonment touched all who belong to Roshar so there's that... But I think if she was just the spren of Rhythm's then the parshmen wouldn't have been specifically affected. I think it more likely that Mishram had a Rhythm in the same way the Sibling's Rhythm was the Rhythm of the Tower - and the song of science. I don't know what Mishram's would have been though. The Rhythm of Freedom? Song of songs? No idea tbh.

This is a theory I've been chewing on for a while but haven't wanted to post because I haven't had the time to put all the pieces together. Anyway, here goes: SPOILERS THROUGH RHYTHM OF WAR (I think) TLDR Ba Ado Mishram was the child of Honor and Cultivation, the common ground between singers and spren. The Heralds communed with her to some degree, perhaps tricking or trading with her, and she helped them access the Surges. This violated the agreement between the human refugees that bound them in Shinovar and forbade them to use the Surges (in the eyes of the singers at least) - and was the initial spren betrayal the Fused speak of. In retaliation, the singers went to Odium and became the Fused, sparking the first Desolation. The Heralds went to Honor and forged the Oathpact to enable them to fight the Fused and seal them in Braize. In the course of the war, the Fused were able to help Odium Unmake Mishram into Ba Ado Mishram. This is the singer betrayal the spren speak of, which led to many spren mimicing what Honor had done with the Heralds, and the beginning of the Radiants. Cultivation and Honor then had another child, this time made to represent the common ground between humans and spren - Mishram's younger Sibling. A lot of the evidence I've based this on from the text is drawn from the two in-world myths in the title, 'Queen Tsa and the cleverest of the three moons' and 'The Girl Who Looked Up". If you want to get into the weeds, keep reading. Myths of Roshar Firstly, we need to be establish the connection between these two tales, so let's look at what both of the myths are about: The tale of Queen Tsa is a story about a woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling to the heavens. She is aware that going to the heavens is forbidden for mortals, but still she ascends (by tricking the green moon Mishim to trade places with her). She eventually returns to the world, however she is carrying the child of Nomon, the blue moon god of her people. Her son bears the "mantle of the heavens" and she believes he will lead her people to glory. The tale of The Girl Who Looked Up is a story about a young woman who escapes the bounds set forth for her and her people by travelling beyond the Wall. She is aware that going beyond the Wall is forbidden for her people, but still she ascends. She looks over the wall to and sees God's Light. She returns to the world, but first she steals a piece of God's Own Light and flees back home with it. As a result, the storms start coming - but her people now have Light. My conclusion is probably quite obvious by now... Queen Tsa is The Girl Who Looked Up Or, at least, the two represent the same person/people. While Queen Tsa may be an actual historical figure in Roshar, it's important to remember that Hoid - ancient, magical Hoid - is the one telling the tale.. And he's not above exercising artistic license when he wants to. Hoid is also the teller of the second iteration of the Girl Who Looked Up not long after this scene, the version which includes the Girl's people having "light renewed." (Oathbringer, 82) If that doesn't convince you, here are a few of the symbolic ties between Tsa and the Girl. i) Looking Up Like the Girl, Tsa quite literally spends her story looking up at the heavens and hatching her scheme to get there: she is literally a girl who looks up. Both Tsa and the Girl are warned against their quest: The Queen herself says that all know the eyes of mortals would burn at the sights, their minds run mad at the language of the heavens. The Girl questions several people on the Wall and is told: "There is a wall. Do not go beyond it, or you shall die.” (Oathbringer, 25) Both the Girl and the Queen reach for the sky: The Girl by climbing the "high, terrible wall stretching toward the moons. Blocking the sky..." (Oathbringer, 25) The Queen by designing "high towers for her city, built to reach ever upward, grasping toward the sky." (Oathbringer, 67) ii) Turning White In the myth of the Girl at the point at which she starts climbing the Wall, Shallan notices that the Girl's hair is white, and is unsure if it had always been. Brandon has stated there is some significance to this. In the story of Tsa, the Queen is represented in Hoid's smoke by a white tower while Mishim is represented by a green moon. Once they trade places however, Shallan notes that: "the moon had become white, and the single straight tower he made by swiping up in the smoke was instead pale green." (Oathbringer, 67) In both stories, the transition/appearance of white occurs after the protagonist sets out on their journey to the other side. iii) The Red Scarf In the myth of the Girl, we are told: "a vibrant red scarf grew around the girl’s neck, twin tails extending far behind her". (Oathbringer, 25) The significance of this scarf is hard to see until you look into the history of the scarf itself. It originated in Ancient Egypt and was worn by Queen Nefertiti. I think this is meant to draw yet another symbolic connection between the Girl and Queen Tsa, as she too wears the mantle of a Queen. As for the colour red, more on that later.* Lastly, when Shallan finds Hoid telling the story of Queen Tsa and the three moons in Kholinar: "He was dressed, strangely, in a soldier’s uniform—Sadeas’s livery, with the coat unbuttoned and a colored scarf around his neck." (Oathbringer, 67) iv) The Crime Both the Girl and the Queen commit a crime (or at least something that is viewed in world as morally wrong) once they reach the other side. The Queen breaks her promise not to look upon the sights of the heavens: "Tsa! Your word is broken!" (Oathbringer, 67) The Girl steals a piece of God's Light. v) The Light Both return home with a keepsake from the other side. The Girl returns to her village with the piece of God's Light, bringing with her the storms. We are told that the Light once taken could not be put back and that "each storm brought light renewed" and [of her people] "now they could see". In other words, her people now had Light eternal thanks to her gambit. The Queen carries a child of Nomon, one of the gods, who bears the "mantle of the heavens". The story elaborates that all descendants of this son bear this mantle (the blue skin) - or you could say all of her people now bear the mantle of the heavens. Symbolically, heaven's mantle usually refers to the stars themselves - or starlight. So all of her people now bear the Light of the heavens after her gambit. So if these two stories are about the same characters and events, what are they about? Who do they represent? We know of the history of the human refugees led by the Heralds, who were bound in Shinovar and likely warned against tampering with the Surges after the destruction of their home planet. We know that the First Desolation was sparked by some sort of betrayal by the spren involving the humans: "The betrayal of spren has brought us here/They gave their Surges to human heirs" (Words of Radiance, 28) Who is Queen Tsa/The Girl representing? What about Mishim, God's Light, the child of Nomon and Tsa? The Heralds & Ba Ado Mishram 1) The people of Tsa's kingdom = the people of the village = human refugees from Ashyn The Village and the world are both the strictly designated areas of the denizens of Tsa and the Girl's world, and they are forbidden to leave it. From what we know of the original Ashynite refugees, this is exactly what Shinovar was to them: humans were supposed to stay in the grassy, earth-like area designed for them - to this day the Shin curse stonewalkers ( the rest of Roshar is basically stone and crem). Another parallel is found in the fact that the people in the Girl's village lived in darkness - there was no Light. In much the same way, Shinovar is known to have no spren, and the ancient human refugees had no bonds to Rosharan spren - no Investiture - no Light. However, this story is not purely a physical one - much like the history of Roshar was not. 2) The City/World = The Village = Shinovar/the minds of men Queen Tsa's home city/the whole world parallels the village the girl lives in: the Village is described as being in the shadow of the great Wall - one villager says it's not a wall: "That’s just the way the sky is over there.” (Oathbringer, 25) The Wall is so huge the villagers almost seem to live beneath it, in the same way Tsa and her people live literally below the heavens. And while the humans did literally expand out of Shinovar into Roshar, but the rest of the tale - the theft of Light, the mantle of the heavens - doesn't quite add up with any purely physical objects in Rosharan history. We have known since Words of Radiance that the ancient singers felt the spren had betrayed them. This has been expanded on in subsequent books as we know the singers manipulated the Surges - using Stoneshaping etc. - and had some sort of bonds with the spren like all native Rosharan life. That ancient betrayal that sparked the war, and a cycle of betrayals. The spren betrayal, in the listener's words was that: "They gave their Surges to human heirs" (Words of Radiance, 28) We also know how spren bonds work now - human minds are linked to spren, which pulls them into the Physical Realm through the Connection. It is a meeting of minds that grants spren presence in the Physical Realm in exchange for granting humans Surges. This is why I believe the darkness the people of the Girl's village is representative of Cognitive darkness - the humans had no access to the Surges, to Stormlight - they lived in darkness. For further evidence we can look to the singers in this tale. 3) The creatures who lived beyond the Wall = the singers "She climbed down the steps...she hid among the creatures who lived on this side." (Oathbringer, 82) There are creatures who live beyond the wall, in "God's Light" (Oathbringer, 82) unlike the Girl's people living in the land of shadows. On the Physical level, this is accurate with what we know of Rosharan history - the ancient singers lived in Roshar, filled with spren and Investiture while the humans lived in earth-like Shinovar. It also tallies with what we've heard about the bonds between men and spren vs those between singers and spren.These realms are meant to represent the minds of men and singers respectively: at this point in time, humans had no Connection to the spren of Roshar - there was a barrier between their minds and those of the spren. Singers however, cannot provide what the humans can: The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men (Words of Radiance, 32) According to this, the ancient spren betrayed the singers because singers minds were too close to their realm (Shadesmar), and the sapient spren desired more: human connection. Much as we are told that Mishim "doesn’t want to be in the sky" and longs to come down among mortals and do all the things "she had watched from afar" (Oathbringer, 67). As for Nomon, in the tale we see how Mishim's brothers enjoy the company of Tsa, in a way they never seemed to with Mishim. This seems to parallel the sentiments of the singers as they realise the humans - like Queen Tsa - have more to offer the spren than they do; this suggests Nomon himself represents the spren. As for Mishim...more on that later/ 4) Queen Tsa = The Girl Who Looked Up = The Heralds Now, if the setting is ancient Shinovar then while the Girl/Queen of the people could represent an actual queen, she more likely represents the leaders of the humans living in Shinovar: the Heralds. After all, it is the Girl who is responsible for stealing the piece of God's Light, the coming of the storms, and "tearing down the wall" (Oathbringer, 25). In the RoW Nale visions, we see what is presumably the forging of the Oathpact (as it is the earliest vision). In it, Jezrien and Ishar invite Nale to take some charge, a duty that he accepts with honor - the Oathpact. Jezrien claims, "We will fix what we've broken." (Rhythm of War, 47) This seems to indicate that Jezrien and Ishar - at least - were responsible for starting the Desolations. We also infer that Nale was opposed to whatever Jezrien and Ishar did that "broke" something and started the war, as Jezrien claims he was correct all along. Let's combine this with what we already know about the start of the Desolations: 1) The spren betrayed the singers by giving their "Surges to human heirs" 2) The humans betrayed the singers in some way involving the spren "they were a people forlorn, without a home...their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." (Oathbringer, 111) 3) Some of the Heralds were responsible for breaking something, which started the Desolations So what did the ancient humans break? We know the Heralds were their leaders, and that squares with Jezrien's reference to what they broke when talking to Nale. In the story of the Girl, she steals a piece of God's Light. This leads to the breaking of the wall, the barrier between the land of shadows and the land of Light - and the Storms come as a punishment. It seems that the Heralds - the ancient humans - violated their agreement, they broke their word. "Tsa! Your word is broken!" (Oathbringer, 67) The Heralds broke their word by (in the eyes of the Fused) stealing the spren/Surges, breaking the barrier between men and spren and, which led to the Desolations. The Girl crossed the barrier between lands and stole Light, which led to the Wall being torn down and the Storms coming as punishment. After breaking their Pact with the singers, Jezrien and Ishar hatched a plan to forge a new one that might fix what they had ruined.= 5) The Sky = Beyond the Wall = Roshar/Shadesmar It follows that the Heavens and the land beyond the Wall are one and the same. The land beyond the Wall is illuminated by God's Light, which seems to tally with the heavens which are lit by starlight - and also the presence of the gods Nomon and Salas. 6) Tsa & Nomon's Child = The Piece of God's Light = Surges Both the Girl and the Queen journey to the 'Other Side' and return with something: the Girl steals a piece of God's Light, which she brings to her people providing Light eternal - "each storm brought light renewed, for it could never be put back, now that it had been taken." (Oathbringer, 82) The Queen returns to her land pregnant with Nomon's child, and gives birth to a son who will lead her people. He is said to bear "the mantle of the heavens" meaning the blue skin of Natanatan which mimics the blue light of Nomon's moon. In the story, Nomon is a god however; that blue light is God's light, one that his son carries. We are also told that "that is why to this day, the people of Natanatan have skin of a faintly blue shade.": Queen Tsa's people bear God's Light to this day. The key difference between the two tales is how this is obtained: the Girl steals a piece of God's Light, whereas Nomon seems to have delighted in Tsa's company - that was no theft. The only victim in the tale of Tsa is Mishim; she is the one who is tricked by Queen Tsa, she is the one who experiences "Loss." (Oathbringer, 67) She experiences the loss of "Nomon's kindness" (Oathbringer, 67): the loss of her bond with her brothers. To experience loss is to have something taken away: the Girl steals God's Light; the Queen steals God's affection. So what is God's Light? What is this thing that The Girl/Tsa/the Heralds stole? It's pretty clear, given what Light is in the real (cosmere) world - Investiture. Bonds. Or, as a Rosharan might say, Surges. These two stories - taken as one tale about the Heralds - rhyme very well with in-world canon we know, which I alluded to earlier. Let's take the two stories, strip them of their figurative facade and see what we're left with. To recap: Queen Tsa = The Girl = The Heralds The World = The Village/land of shadows = Shinovar/minds of men creatures beyond the wall = ? = singers Nomon = God's Light = spren Nomon's son = Piece of God's Light = Surges Storms = Desolations Mishim = ? = ? So, the Heralds lived and led the humans Shinovar, and were strictly forbidden from venturing beyond Shinovar and their minds from Connecting with spren and accessing Surges. Despite the warnings of some of their peers, the Heralds decide to breach the barrier between men and spren. They trick Mishim (?) into helping them access the Surges. Mishim feels betrayed by the Heralds, and claims that they broke their word. The damage is done, and the barrier between the minds of men and the spren is broken. The Desolations start as a result of this. However, every Desolation brings back the light renewed* (in this case I believe it alludes to the fact that the Heralds return with each Desolation/storm). So who is Mishim in the cosmere, this mysterious being that allowed the Heralds to access the Surges (a piece of God's Light)? Where is she in the story of the Girl Who Looked Up? We know that Mishim was the victim of loss in Tsa's story, so we simply have to look for a similar victim in the Girl's story: who did the Girl steal God's Light from? There are 2 answers to that question. 1) God's Light ("girl in the scarves slipping up to the grand source of light, then breaking off a little piece in her hand." (Oathbringer, 82) 2) The creatures beyond the Wall (aka the singers) The second is the easiest to comprehend: it fits with what we know of the lore. The Heralds/ancient humans stole (in the eyes of the singers) the Surges/Connection to Rosharan spren from the ancient singers - this is the betrayal that started the Desolations. It also works if we insert the singers in the tale of Tsa: Mishim (the singer) is jealous of Tsa's connection with her brothers Nomon and Salas: "‘Feasting?’ Her siblings had never feasted with her before." (Oathbringer, 67) "‘Songs?’ Her siblings had never sung with her before." (Oathbringer, 67) "Mishim...now knew another mortal emotion. Loss." (Oathbringer, 67) Mishim is jealous of and betrayed by the human Tsa's Connection with Nomon in the same way the singers are jealous of and betrayed by humans Connection to spren, whose "meat is men" . Tsa offers Nomon companionship that Mishim cannot, singing and feasting with him - just as the humans offer what the singers cannot: "We can't provide what the humans lend" (Words of Radiance, 32) The first is a bit murkier, but also makes sense with cosmere mechanics. You might ask how you can steal from a being made of God's Light, or how a piece of that being could grant one Surges. But we do have sapient beings made of 'God's Light' (Investiture), with whom a Connection can grant access to Surgebinding: spren. How can these two answers coexist? How can the Heralds have taken the Connection to Rosharan spren from a spren and taken it from the singers? Simple: Mishim was a spren who represented the Connection between the singers and the spren. We know that such spren can exist from Rhythm of War, because that is exactly what the Sibling is: "My song...the common ground, the Sibling said. Between humans and spren. That is … that is why I was created." (Rhythm of War, 110) The Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation, made to be the emulsifier between humans and spren. If Honor and Cultivation created such a being for the humans, is it not possible that they did the same aeons before? Either that, or they found the spren already in existence - the singers being native to Roshar, it is possible that such a spren arose naturally. If it didn't, if this mysterious elder spren was indeed born of Honor and Cultivation, then the spren made by Honor and Cultivation to bridge the gap between spren and humans is not the only child - he is the Sibling. A last piece of evidence - the chapter with the tale of Queen Tsa is titled 'Mishim' and begins with this epigraph: "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact." (Oathbringer, 67) We know now that this was the Sibling's Bondsmith, which seems appropriate for a chapter revealing lore about the character I believe to have been its predecessor. Let's turn back to the tale of Tsa and apply this new knowledge: at the end of the story, Mishim hears a new song which she recognises as the song of Nomon's child with Tsa . She feels loss - a spren that represents the Connection between singers and spren experiences the loss of light at the hands of the humans. This works perfectly as symbolism for the singers ancient loss and betrayal. However, it still leaves us with one final question: who is/was Mishim? Who was this great spren of Connection, that represented the Connection of the minds of the entire singer species to the spren? Hmmmm.... "Ba-Ado-Mishram...Connected herself to the entire singer species." (Rhythm of War, 73) "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people," (Oathbringer, 80) 7) Mishram = Mishim The first and most obvious connection here is the similarity of the two names Mishim/Mishram. Beyond this, let's look at everything we know about Ba Ado Mishram from the books: i) The Heralds know Ba Ado Mishram personally: "please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren." (Rhythm of War, 97) NOTE: Kalak calls her 'Mishram', not 'Ba Ado Mishram' as the Fused, Sja-Anat and other Voidspren do. ii) She is consistently described as crafty/cunning/intelligent: "Ba-Ado-Mishram, who had granted forms to the singers during the False Desolation—were crafty and conniving." (Rhythm of War, I-2) "She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces" (Oathbringer, 106) iii) She is trapped in a prison (the gem) and presumably wants to escape. Now lets look at how Mishim, the green moon is described: i) "the third moon is the cleverest." (Oathbringer, 35) ii) "she doesn’t want to be in the sky, sir. She wants to escape." (Oathbringer, 35) iii) "everybody knows that Mishim—the third moon—is the most clever and wily of the moons.” (Oathbringer, 35) iv) "Mishim is always looking for a chance to escape her duty.” (Oathbringer, 67) v) “Everyone knows that Mishim is the cleverest of the three moons." (Oathbringer, 67) vi) "The queen was pious, but the moon was crafty." (Oathbringer, 67) [NOTE: Ishar is famously pious, and less famously crafty] vii) “As always, Mishim was hatching a scheme." (Oathbringer, 67) I find it too much of a coincidence that two characters with such similar names are consistently described with the same language. Furthermore, the characterisation of Mishim as a kind of rebel fits with what we know of Ba Ado Mishram, who led the singers in the False Desolation without Odium and the Voidspren. It also explains how and why Ba Ado Mishram was able to Connect herself to the minds of the entire singer species during the False Desolation. Her having been the spren of Connection between singers and spren, it makes sense that she would retain this capacity - and that binding her in the way they did would have some adverse effects on the singers: "Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too." (Rhythm of War, 49) "By capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram—locking her in a gemstone—humankind had stolen the minds of the singers in ancient times." (Rhythm of War, 24) Even the language of the Recreance in this quote seems to echo the myth of the Girl: humans stole God's Light from the minds of the singers. And Mishram, "though still crafty, has never again left her place." (Oathbringer, 67) Conclusion So that's my theory. Ba Ado Mishram - once called Mishram - was a spren who represented the common ground between singers and spren. The Heralds communed with her to some degree, perhaps tricking her, and this let them access the Surges. This act violated the agreement between the singers and the human refugees (in the eyes of the singers at least) - this was the initial spren betrayal the Fused speak of. In retaliation, the singers went to Odium and became the Fused, sparking the first Desolation. The Heralds in turn went to Honor and forged the Oathpact to enable them to fight the Fused and seal them in Braize. During the course of the war, Odium was able to Unmake Mishram, God's Own Light, into Bad Ado Mishram. This is the great singer betrayal that the spren speak of, that led to many spren mimicing what Honor had done with the Heralds, and the beginning of the Radiants. Finally, it is possible that Mishram was actually the first born child of Cultivation and Honor, created specifically to represent the bond between singers and spren. Centuries later, when the spren started making human Surgenbinders, Ishar came to Honor to help force order upon them (making the Radiant orders). At this point, Cultivation and Honor had another child, this time made to represent the common ground between humans and spren. They made the Sibling. If you made it this far thanks for reading, can't believe I actually typed this whole essay and someone actually read it. Excited for y'all to tear holes in it it!

Damn this is heartbreaking, thought I had something. Thanks guys, it was fun while it lasted...

There's not a lot to this theory beyond speculation, but I was watching the Shardcast where they go over the Word of Brandon that states that Nightblood is related to Ruin in a "non-trivial way". That got me thinking about the way Nightblood's frenzies are written - they really remind me of the scenes where Ruin is enraged/showing his true self in HoA and Secret History. Bearing in mind the fact that the Five Scholars were Worldhoppers who at the very least travelled to Roshar, I think its reasonable to assume they visited Scadrial too (I believe there's a WoB about interplanetary travel occurring on Scadrial at least as far back as the Lord Ruler's time). We also know that they got the inspiration for Nightblood from observing Shardblades on Roshar in their travels. As scholars, I imagine they did a thorough examination of the Blades and were probably aware that they were all alloys of godmetals (Cultivation's + Honor's). So when they went off to create their own via Awakening, they may have used ordinary steel - but they might also have tried to use something more powerful (and similar in composition to the weapons they were trying to emulate). Now imagine they're on their way back from Roshar and already thinking about how to make their own Shardblade. Unfortunately, godmetals aren't generally that common or accessible (in that state) on most planets in the cosmere. An exception to this, at least in the era when the Five Scholars were travelling together, is Scadrial. In fact, the perpendicularity to Scadrial at the time was the Pits of Hathsin, which just so happens to be filled with Ruin's godmetal. As well as being relatively easily accessible, there may have been (perceived) mechanical advantages to choosing Ruin's specific godmetal too. Since they intended to create a Blade to "Destroy evil", which better metal to use than the one made from the Shard whose Intent is as destructive as it gets. It might have seemed like a clever way to harness Ruin's destructive potential for good (which obviously didn't go quite as planned). There may be more properties specific to atium that were beneficial - perhaps it's relation to Fortune/Connection helps with luring in those with evil/detecting evil. One immediate issue I observed with this theory was the act of Awakening itself - we don't know if its possible to Awaken a godmetal but the rule of thumb has been that highly Invested objects resist cosmere magic - be it Surgebinding or Awakening. Given that atium is literally solid Ruin Investiture it would probably be extremely resistant. While its possible that they didn't use pure atium - they could have made an alloy of it and ordinary metal or something of the sort - there is a WoB that offers an alternative explanation. We know that Endowment herself had a direct hand in the creation of Nightblood. I'm not sure of the exact words, but I believe she assisted the Scholars without their knowledge for her own purposes. Until now, I had assumed this was just because Awakening steel/creating a weapon that powerful was beyond the Five Scholars, but maybe the real obstacle was in Awakening a godmetal. If this is true, then endowing a blade of atium with enough Breaths to Awaken it would essentially make the Blade an alloy of Ruin + Endowment's Investiture, much as Shardblade's are alloys of Cultivation + Honor's.

Building on this, another possibility is that Ishar and Nale were right about Radiants bringing back Desolations. Perhaps if the Radiants had not abandoned their oaths their Connection to BAM would have created a backdoor for the Fused to leave Braize and come to Roshar (they are Connected to her through Odium, and she to Roshar). By breaking their oaths the Radiants may have wounded Roshar and even Honor, but they could also have prevented the Fused from Connecting to Roshar through BAM. Ishar may have advised on this course of action in the first place, and it would explain why they maintained it over the millennia...it could even be why the Skybreakers were the safest order to remain as they seem the most cold/emotionless of the orders (and thus maybe least Connected to Odium). All spren have traditionally been some mix of Cultivation and Honor. The Everstorm may be proof that Ishar was right, as Rayse implies to Dalinar that it is not of his making (or at least in his direct control). We know it starts in the east, somewhere beyond Shinovar, which is also a good candidate for where BAM is being held.

I think the way in which they are similar is in how the deadeyes/seons are affected. In Elantris, the earthquake cuts off the seons Connection to Devotion, essentially making them deadeyes. On Roshar, we know that Odium became part of the system (one of the tones), which we now know Connected all of Roshar to BAM (including the spren). Prior to the imprisonment, the breaking of a Radiant bond would presumably return a spren to the Cognitive, but with BAM being trapped in the Physical the spren are instead trapped ( as she is their only valid Connection). Look at this quote from Kalak's epigraphs about what happened when Jezrien was trapped (the Heralds are essentially spren Connected to Honor): "The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms." - Kalak (Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War).

Yeah so I think what's happening with the deadeyes is comparable to what was wrong with: I think this is why adding gemstones to Shardblades partially revived them (remember BAM is trapped in a gem) - as it allowed some partial Connection. I also think we as an audience/Adolin misinterpreted what Maya said at the end of RoW. When Adolin asks her why they made this sacrifice she says "To save..." and then runs out of breath. Adolin assumes she was meant to say it was to save them from something worse, but I believe she was going name drop a person. The most obvoius candidate is BAM, but it could be someone else/ a group of people - perhaps the rest of the spren?

"Honor is dead, but he lives on in the hearts of men" - I think this phrase is going to be very significant, and is related to what is wrong with humans/deadeyes post-Recreance (more specifically with how to fix it). Kalak's epigraphs reveal a lot about what is going with spren/Connection on Roshar - he talks about the mechanics of what happened to Jezrien (and the Heralds are functionally spren who remain Connected to Roshar through the Oathpact). The usual Nahel bond functions by humans giving spren conscious in exchange for power (the Connect): "The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms." - Kalak (Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War). I think this applies to spren, except pre-Recreance the spren would still have a valid Connection through Honor and would probably return to Shadesmar. However now, Kalak tells us: "I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed." So when a human breaks their oath, spren do not have a valid Connection through Honor, but they ARE connected to Mishram (as Odium is now part of Roshar), and thus remain trapped in the physical. So when Radiants sever the bond post-Recreance, the spren who usually would have Connected to Honor (keeper of oaths) instead Connect to BAM, hence their minds being trapped. Reversing this requires a version of the Nahel bond that functios according to Odium, which is what we see between Adolin and Maya. With the usual Nahel bond, humans take power from spren in exchange for their minds. Re-reading the trial scene when Maya speaks, and the exchange between her and Adolin is so similar to how Odium takes pain (Passion) from people. "Adolin...felt her pain somehow.A deep agony. And...anger?" He gives her some of his "strength" and feels a warmth deep inside: I think this works the same way it does for the Sibling - they couldn't hear Honor's tone anymore so I don't think any deadeye spren on Rohsar can. However, if they Connect with a human they can because Honor lives on in the hearts of men - as Navani proved.