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Everything posted by Debarra

  1. So I recently got back to the forums and saw this thread that gave me an idea for a theory of possibly the darkest possible timeline the contest of Champions could go down. Using the death rattles as a basis for predicting the future we still have one available to us. To me this appears to be from Dalinar's perspective and that somehow Todium has managed to make Gavinor his champion. Dalinar is conflicted with this choice for obvious reasons. It is at this stage I belief a draw is made between the two until one of them dies. As such Todium is still given free reign on what he can do and the ability continue to interfere directly in war effort. Due to overwhleming numbers the fused are at the same moment of the draw being made ordered to attack a variety of central locations to the coalition. With most forces expecting an end to the conflict the coalition is caught off guard and struggle to fight back. This would also mean as a result that Alethkar itself is not coming back to Dalinar or the rest of the Alethi. (As well as that the deal doesn't prevent Odium from harming the land or its inhabitants before the day of the contest, this could also be showing him destroying the land beforehand.) Obviously as well most people would feel cheated by this and let down by the Knights Radiant for this failure. One in particular feels let down. Someone who generally feels themselves as broken in some way. Kaladin, I think this is from his perspective at the end of the contest when it seems a draw. Now I also think this is Kaladin's perspective still feeling hopeless. Note however an issue with the quote, "..." This appears to show a gap in the rattle, either the person telling it was surprised to see what comes next or Kaladin himself is surprised by something he realised. It is at this final moment when all seems lost where I think Kaladin will say the final ideal of the Windrunners. The idea that has been repeated very often to us, an issue he had for a good while. Can you kill to protect? I belief the fifth ideal will be something along those lines, a promise to kill in order to protect others. So when faced with the deaths and failure of possibly everyone he knows Kaladin swears the oath and goes to attack Gavinor. They have won the contest (as nobody said that the champion can only be killed by the other champion) but at what cost? Both these seem from the perspective of Gavinor while he dies. So I think this timeline is the darkest possible timeline of events and is hopefully highly unlikely to take place.
  2. So I've just finished the book and I don't really think Fjorden come across as the villian's as Brandon intended. If anything my reading of the book ended up making me root for Hrathen most of the novel. The most outwardly villainous trait we see the Fjorden display is their expansionism. Even then though that doesn't actually seem that bad, the only independent nations we see are Arlene and Teod. Arlene is basically defunct and doomed most of the novel with a failing economic and political system as well as essentially no military or any other essential services. As we are reminded again consistently Arlene as it currently stands is doomed to collapse again eventually. Teod doesn't seem much better from the glimpses we catch of it, it is lead by a King who unlawfully took his throne, a reactionary church that nobody seems to have actual confidence in and a king who has no idea on anything to do with trade relying on his clerks to help him. Both kingdoms are in trouble so much Dilaf essentially takes them both out with like 50 guys. The restoration of Elantris helps sure but as Raoden notes himself this isn't a permanent solution. Other lands and cultures are discovering their own type of magic meaning Elantris will no longer be supreme, as well as that the restoration of Elantris seems like it will just continue the same cycle for Arlene the next time it falls. From what we saw of Elantris in its prime it also doesn't actually seem as good as people remember it, the people literally can't farm. Meanwhile Fjorden seems to thrive. We know it has what people in Arlene describe as the centre of culture and science. It seems very stable and the glimpses we see of it actually isn't that bad. The people there are free enough to continue their own religions or mixture of their original religion and Shu-Dereth. Historically as well just because a nobility has a different religion does not mean local belief is wiped out. Fjorden seems a preferable situation for both nations. The only reason I can really think one could oppose Fjorden is due to Dilaf. If that is Brandons intention though I think it fails. Dilaf doesn't seem representative of Fjorden at all, in fact he seems like the opposite of what Fjorden wants. He even contradicts Wyrn's commands. (Yes I reread that letter he references and it does order Hrathen to preach and convert the masses, Hrathen did exactly as ordered and there are plenty of other reasons to realise he was doing so. Dilaf just seems fond of making stuff up?) Dilaf also just comes across as a complete idiot for most of the novel than any real threat to people. Perhaps one could make an argument that Fjorden is evil because people like Dilaf can rise up its ranks but then we'd have to remember that Arlene and Teod equally has pretty bad people in its ranks, sometimes right up to the king. Even than Fjorden seems the better optition. Is there something I missed? Is anyone else not really seeing Fjorden as evil?
  3. I do feel Kaladin or Szeth will be the champion. Leaning more towards Szeth since it is his book after all and he has night blood. Just have Dalinar open the perpendicularity and let Szeth go to town. Odiums champion will also be something tricky most likely. I do like the idea of a chasm fiend.
  4. I loved it myself and found it resonated with me. Kaladin overall I just find an amazing character and I love him and his arc, I think it's a really good thing.
  5. Did Mercy kill Ambition instead of Odium? We know from past wobs that Odium primarily attacked Shards the broke the agreement between the Shards. As well as that he only would attack if he felt he could win and worried Ambition would try and rival him. In Arcanum Khriss also does not list Ambition in the list of shards that Odium "doubtlessly killed." It seems likely to me that Ambition initially attacked Mercy thinking them an easy target. With this opportunity Odium arrived to help attack Ambition as well and Mercy managed to also fight back. Ultimately Mercy was the one who killed Ambition which would explain why they aren't included in the list of those Odium killed beyond a doubt and why Harmony was worried about Mercy upon talking to them.
  6. theory

    Vengeance for the shard name? For like a pre planned act of hatred? Vengeance probably isn't perfect but it seems closeish to what such a shard would call itself. I could also see meditation ad in cultivating and managing your emotions but that seems too opposing to what Odium is for this combination.
  7. Renlain. Literally the only combination of their names that I have seen that can be pronounced.
  8. Yes it did. The same scene we learn Drehy is gay. It happens in chapter 55 of Oathbringer. Kaladin did consider courting a man as feminine.
  9. Whimsy seems the best one to me.
  10. I expected Zahel to play a bigger role, especially when the Radiants all went down. I thought Kaladin would actually have to not protect someone in order to reach the fourth ideal. As in like giving up on saving Lirin or someone else in order to achieve a more important goal.
  11. No. They don't deserve it and at this stage it just wouldn't be possible.
  12. I'd still say not that evil. There isn't a lot of evidence that they fully understand how Dahkor monks work or was even aware of what Dilaf was doing. Dilaf even ran off at some point all the way to Elantris and changed his physical appearance. Does Wyrn even know he's alive? Dakhor in general also seems needed. Fjorden is surrounded with countries with their own type of magic that they can use to defend themselves or to attack other people. What is Fjorden meant to do is Elantrians decide to attack the Duladel border for instance? Considering the fact we know the Elantrians did use their powers consistently for warfare in the past (hence the lack of an army at Arlene) it seems fair for Fjorden to also use their own type of magic to defend themselves. Sure Dakhor isn't great but there isn't a lot they can really do about it. It is what they are stuck with. To decry them as evil for it seems to just be blaming them due to where they happened to geographically live. Like if they just happened to have Elantrian magic instead then they'd no longer be evil? If that is the case then they really weren't evil in the first place. On turning a blind eye to some things (presuming Fjorden had an alternative option) that doesn't seem all that evil either. Or like as evil as we are being lead to belief. Arlene's and Teods leaders turn a blind eye to their issues as well and in real life just about every government ever has turned a blind eye to some atrocity that took place there. At that rate every country that has ever existed is evil. Sure in real life you'd have countries more evil than Fjorden then as the books seems to tell us all of the Dahkor monks and by extension their sacrifices are willing participants, not really something any real country can claim for the victims of its atrocity.
  13. Is Wyrn evil though? There doesn't seem to be anything that paints them that is actually evil beyond ruling the Fjorden empire and thus being opposed to the main characters. Their goals seem pretty aligned with Hrathen's, Dilaf seems the exceptional evil case. The only evil thing Wyrn seems to do is send an assassin after Hrathen due to something they saw via future sight. Considering Hrathen had just turned against Wyrn himself there that seems more self preservation than anything.
  14. poll

    Hrathen was the best for me. He just seemed the most real and I found his chapters generally the most engaging and interesting. I wished we had gotten more of him.
  15. It does seem Thadikar isn't the only leader they have. I imagine he's instead in like a team of sorts, he just happens to be at the top of the food chain for Mraize's particular position.
  16. I think he's just an ordinary dude. It's just outside infouebce from the god beyond or something else that caused him to be there. The scene seems kept ambiguous so that it can be interpreted that way.
  17. ... Where did any of that come from? Where did I say any of that? Also literally none of that has any connection whatsoever to the thing you actually quoted. Literally nothing connecting the two. That was discussing the whole Dalinar failing thing, what does that response have anything to do with that one? .... I also literally already acknowledged that earlier in this thread. Yes. But he's not Gaz nor is he in any position similar to Gaz. He bonded that spren as far back as WoK. He also already showed Lightweaver behavior by questioning himself so much. Like in WoR where he goes on a whole spiel about how he's a bad king. Also I do understand what your trying to say but even your examples here show Kaladin certainly could not become every order or any other order really. 2. Slavery is allowed in Alethkar law. Kaladin constantly rebels against this and tries to free the bridgemen, a thing breaking the law. This is against the sky breakers oaths. (We don't even have to extrapolate this, Nale himself literally tells us doing this is against their oaths. He picked Szeth because of how good he was at being a slave and not going against the law.(Also another example of how people are only given an order after they show traits of that order.)) 3. Kaladin despises the light eyes with a passion and tries to persuade others to dislike them or hate them. He is dividing people not uniting them. 4. Gaz. He completely forget about Gaz. 6. Kaladin doesn't really have any truths at all. He's not in denial about anything. He's admitted everything that happened. He had no truths to say. The only thing he was in denial about was that he couldn't protect everyone, something that was only really an issue due to the other Windrunner oaths. Also he displays 0 creative ability. 7. Kaladin doesn't really care about freedom. As a soldier he never tried to free the soldiers, not even the child ones. He'd only take them under his care to protect them. Never free them. Escaping wasn't even his original intention with the bridgemen, he wanted to just protect them with medical care and proper regimen. It was only after it became clear that wouldn't protect them all that he tried to escape. Escape was never his motivation. As for 5, 8, 9 and 10 I don't think we know enough about those orders to even know what their traits or oaths are. Like I have radically different ideas on what those orders actually are and I imagine pretty much everyone does. We know nothing about them. (Also seeing the truth in others seems more a Lightweaver thing, like what Shallan does with the desserters and what we are told the orders entire role was in the in universe document of WoR. (Also Kaladin sees none of this. He only notices Teft was an old soldier. Everyone else has to outwright tell him what they can do. He didn't even really notice Dabbid at all till like this book.)) Looking at all this the windrunners are the only order he'd actually go under. His actions either break the oaths of others or is stuff he just doesn't care about in the slightest. If anything you've just further confirmed my point. He literally couldn't become some orders or progress far in others. The Windrunners is the only group he actually exhibits the ideals of. Even the argument of whatever spren is in the area falls apart under this look. Liespren were constantly around or near Kal all the time, take Tien and Elhokar. None of them ever tried to bond Kal, indicating he couldn't be a Lightweaver. Even the liespren we meet here mention they had to go seeking people to bond (a weird thing to do if literally anyone is a suitable candidate) and Wyndle says he was assigned to Lift from a preselcted list of possible candidates. (A list that would be another odd thing to have if literally anybody could become an Edgedancer.) uess where I was confused is if you are referencing where Brandon said you cannot become any order, that you were going to post the WoB that said that. Could you post that one? ..... I never once said anything about such a wob. I have absolutely no idea where this came from. ...... I already did. .......
  18. Okay? That doesn't refute anything I actually said. No one has been arguing otherwise. The point is that Navani doesn't try or seems at all interested in actually being a Bondsmith. That was the point that spawned that whole discussion. I never said you have to be a squire first before becoming a radiant. I said it was safe to presume that's how Gaz became one as that seem to be how it works for people in his position, such as in the list you just provided earlier in this thread of everyone who went that route who was in his position. Also yes I saw that WoB but it doesn't say someone can be any order just possibly more than one. That's different than any order. That also for the third time now was not the point I was making with the Lord Ruler. As I said earlier in the thread; The point isn't that he could not be any order, it was that he would only be an 'okay' Skybreaker. Meaning one can not excel at a particular order. Meaning one can't be a candidate for every possible order.
  19. Yeah I was only ever discussing their oaths. He didn't fail though. That's the first ideal. He succeeded at times even. Under that logic every radiant that we have has failed massively. No idea on the Gaz thing but considering how every other thing we have indicates he'd have become a squire first I think it's reasonable to presume he became a squire first. Yeah another Spren could bond you but like they'd only bond you if you were showing traits of that order as well. You can maybe be in one or two orders but not all of them. Even the wobs given show that as there are small arguements for which order they may be, not like definitive ones or strong claims to it. The Lord Ruler wob is here. As for the others well not everyone has access to a physical book for one.
  20. Yes and? That has nothing to do with his oaths whatsoever. I'm discussing his oaths here. Again that's just a thing he can do, his oaths don't revolve around his powers. Strength before weakness Journey before destination He tried. That's the whole point of being a radiant. Also he succeeded at multiple points, he got some of the highprinces to unite and now all of them are united. He also got the monarchs to unite. The entire first ideal is about trying to do things, that's it's entire point. Dalinar never stopped trying to do those things so his bond with the Storm father wouldn't break. Navani doesn't even try is the issue and she makes it clear she doesn't intend to try. Correct none of them exhibited those traits when starting out. That is why they never bonded Spren. They became squires first. Only after they actually started emulating their ideals did they attract Spren. If anything it just shows my point about how the bonds begin with people who already are beginning to show the traits of the order. Yes that is what a Bondsmith would do and any reasonable person would think but Navani makes it clear here that isn't what she means. She isn't going to change her ways here, she's not promising to do that. It's the siblings responsibility to do that. The Sibling does explain, multiple times. She tells Navani it hurts the Spren and isn't good for them. She does this everytime Navani asks. Also in real life stuff like that happens, vegetarians exist and so do religions which prohibit eating certain kinds of meat. People like that do exist, compromises can still be reached. They exist right now in the world. Navani just doesn't bother to try and compromise other than constantly questioning the Siblings view on things and not her own. Also we've been told before in the past that anyone can't become any order. That's not how the ideals work. That's why Brandon before has told us people would only be "okay" in certain orders, like how the Lord Ruler would only make an okay Skybreaker. The quiz also makes it clear the orders clash. Looking in the text itself you can see how the orders clash, the Skybreakers and Winderunnrs have a pretty famous rivalry with each other and the oaths themselves contradict. Like when Kaladin was remembering Moash and helping him assassinate Elhokar, a pretty Edgedancer thing to do, his bond was breaking apart. Or when Dalinar started realising the truth of what he did, a pretty lightweaver thing to do, his bond started breaking apart. Or when Shallan started worrying that she could hurt people with her power, a variety of orders way to do things, she broke her oaths and killed the Spren.
  21. It seems they have redesigned the UK covers again for the Mistborn series. What do people think of the new design?
  22. Rlain is still in the tower isn't he? I thought he decided to stay their with Renarin.
  23. The oaths don't revolve around their powers. Like none of Dalinar's oaths revolve around uniting the realms. It's just a thing they can do. None of the Radiants oaths revolve around their powers. Kaladin doesn't swear oaths based around changing objects gravity. Yes he did. That was literally his entire plotline in WoR. He was trying to unite Alethkar. Like you literally can't miss it, it's the entire point of his plotline for an entire book. Yes radiance is all about progress but like the spren only pick certain people. Kaladin was already acting like a Windrynner before Syl came to him. Shallan was already on the way of speaking truths before Pattern arrived. That's just how it works because like the sprens literal life is on the line. You need to at least show signs of embodying their ideals and even after being bonded Navani shows no signs of wanting to actually unite anyone. Also she does say it. It's literally said in the quote you gave. We are literally told point blank that she has not promised to stop capturing Spren and is not intending to make one or stop doing it. She doesn't want an actual compromise. She simply expects the Sibling to be the one to actually compromise. Navani is not willing to work at all with the Sibling or challenge herself to change her own ways. She just expects the Sibling to do all the heavy lifting. Also reaching a better compromise than just decieving someone is not a compromise at all. Like that's a bar so low literally anyone could pass that. That's all she promised which is a completely useless statement. Navani here does not exhibit the ideals of a Bondsmith at all and is perhaps even the opposite of what one should be. The bond itself and the relationship between the two is not good and seems highly abusive looking at it.
  24. I don't think the Bindsmith oaths really revolve around combining investure at all. Like anyone can do that and it's just a universal constant in their world. Bondsmiths all revolve around uniting people. Navani also doesn't unite spren and humans. Adolin did more to do that than she did. Unless we're creating a weapon to kill all Spren and handing it to the enemy as "uniting" in which case you just end up back at the abusive nature of her bond with the Sibling in the first place. Even in terms of her relationship with the Sibling she shows no sign of being willing to compromise with them. The Sibling very clearly is not happy with that Navani is doing and Navani's response is to decide to just keep what she's doing until the Sibling makes some sort of compromise with her to allow her to continue. That is not the actions of a Bondsmith. At the current state it seems either Navani will just never progress far (perhaps never even reaching the second ideal) or kills the Sibling.
  25. Are any of the newly revealed shards the survival shard?