slavagh

Yeah, this makes sense. I like this idea.

Hero of Ages spoiler: What do you mean she was close to witness the fight? Being on Roshar is close enough given that distance doesn't really matter for Shards. I assume the Stormfather has only a splinter of power. A large one, but still quite a limited amount. You can use a limited amount to Ascend, but not necessarily to become a shard. Other splinters are spren. Do you think that is it? There are no more large splinters of Honor left after the fight? How can he reunite splintered pieces that have gained sentience? It would be killing. That is why I am leaning toward something (other than what Stormfather is holding) that can be absorbed. Something like large chunks of power in the Cognitive or Physical realm that could have been left on Braize after the fight.

"In the top room" vision is strange to me. I don't think he recorded it the last. He is sane in that vision, which contradicts statements that he was raving at the later stages of his life. Some visions (like Recreance) might be recorded by Stormfather. Stormfather has the same voice as Honor. The only time we actually see Honor is in "the top room" vision. I agree that he was already wounded at some point before the final confrontation. But there might have been a second fight with the final blow with immediate death. “I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled". This quote is not about something prolonged. I agree. Recombining sentient Splinters is unlikely and a kind of evil thing to do. But do you think Stormfather is just "gatekeeping" the majority of Honor's power? There needs to be someplace where there is a lot of Honor's power that is not sentient, and Odium doesn't see it as a threat (the place that he controls). Otherwise, I don't see how the whole revival thing is possible. It is hard for me to grasp the concept of splintering something that has no location or real essence. You essentially splintering the idea. And it has ramifications everywhere in Cosmere. But all those WoBs pretty much confirm what you are saying.

1) Totally valid arguments. To be honest, I don’t understand Spiritual Realm that much. My interpretation is that location doesn’t have meaning in the Spiritual realm, because it is replaced with the connection between objects. But this connection manifests as a location in SR and PR. Odium somehow moved throughout Cosmere to kill Shards, without investing a lot. He probably created some kind of connection with the places he visited. And for Honor to fight Odium he might have established a connection to Braize, connecting his power to Braize, leaving a large portion with Stormfather on Roshar. The weird storm around Braize might be his remnants. Hero o Ages spoilers: 2) My other option is: Hero o Ages spoilers:

1) How did Honor die? “I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled” I know that the Shard’s death can be a protracted event. Probably Honor was injured for a long time. But this quote from Stormfather let me believe there was a final confrontation with Odium which resulted in his immediate death. According to The Sibling, it happened shortly after the Recreance. 2) Was Odium stuck on braze from around the Recreance to the Final desolation? I believe yes. There is a lack of evidence about his influence on Roshar up until the arrival of the Everstorm in Shadesmare. You would think there would be at least one secret society of Odium worshipers. It is logical for him to establish a base of support for himself to divide humans and prepare for the Final desolation. We know he was very successful in recruiting humans in the previous desolations. He had at least millennia after recreance to do something. But there is no evidence he did. Why he didn’t support the whole False Desolation thing? It wasn’t such a bad idea to try one desolation without the Fused? If BAM was able to make Reagals, so did he. He even could have protected her from the whole imprisonment thing. I think it is the evidence that he was stuck on Braize. Sja-anat said in her chapter that she lost connection with Odium and was slumbering for millennia. He could have done it intentionally. But why? Maybe he just couldn’t provide that connection. 3) So where did Honor die? Isn’t it logical to assume that the fight between Odium and Honor happened on the planet where Odium was stuck before and after the fight? I believe Honor died on Braize. That is where the final confrontation happened, and that is where his remnants are. Why is it relevant? It helps me to solve the Oathpact contradiction. 4) Oathpact contradiction. On one hand, there is a lot of evidence that the Oathpact is meaningless now. The narrative signals to the reader about that. This desolation is called Final, Raboniel says that this is the last time. The Everstorm can revive fused without sending them to braize. Now you can kill a herald. But most importantly, now you can kill the Fused. What is the point of Oathpact now? Why introduce all those hurdles if the endgame is the revival of the Oathpact? On the other hand, there is the foreshadowing of the revival of the Oath pact in The Rhythm of War. Jasnah talks about it with Ash, Dalinal talks about it with Stormfather after a confrontation with Nale, and most importantly Ishar says he can revive it. It was a moment of clarity, and he is the creator of the Oathpact. In The Stormlight 5 prologue, we are introduced to the concept of replacing a Herald. It seems like a hint towards the revival of the Oathpact, but with the new Heralds. 5) Stormlight 5 finale prediction. I think the outcome of the battle of champions is Odium free of Honor’s restrictions. Which is pure speculation. But there are a lot of threads about this topic. This leaves good guys in a very bad position. I see only one option for them: to revive Honor. For that, they will need to go to Braize. How do you go to Braize? Odium is probably will stop you from doing that easily. Here is where the Oathpact comes in handy. Heroes will revive the Oathpact (mostly new members) purely to have a passage on Braize to retrieve the remnants of Honor. After that, they can broker a deal with Odium from a stronger position.

Love it. It is a very interesting direction for the progression of their bond.

You are probably right. Shard can't be simply defined and can encompass many different aspects at once.

Different interpretations mean inherent conflict between them. Maybe the Shard has conflict within

Windrunners represent at least part of Honor. Honor has a lot of interpretations. Honor is bigger than just following oaths. I gravitate toward windrunners interpretation rather than skybreackers. That is just my subjective preference.

Windrunners are close to Honor. Windrunner's motto is "Protect those who cannot protect themselves". Honor wants to help those who suffer. Honor wants to help Taln. That is my train of thought.

All good. No problem at all It was quite difficult to defend this theory. In a good way. Never expected such a challenging detailed analysis, participation, and feedback. Really appreciate your time.

Sorry to make this discussion less enjoyable for you. I really appreciate your participation and don't have any ill feelings toward you. This theory is based on a lot of assumptions and my personal preferences. I enjoyed hearing fierce opposition because it helps me to look at those books from different angles. But you are right, we are running circles by now.

Yes, you did: Yes, I see the comment now. Do you think it is the only thing that is needed? Or a part of the solution? Why the Heralds rejected such a simple solution to their problems? How can you interpret this comment as weakening the Shard? They are even referred to as separate entities in the WoB. Technically yes, probably means that Nightblood just ate a small part of the Shard. Why did Nightblood kill particularly the Vessel? If they are the one, why there is a conflict with intent in the first place? If they become the one, doesn't it mean there should be no conflict in the first place? I don't know how either of those Shards died. The Ones that we saw in books died through the Vessel with power intact. Splintering is usually done after the Vessel is dead. Don't think that taking a chunk of the power that can be reclaimed can be called splintering. I have an assumption that the mind of the Shard connected to Taln is susceptible to torture. You don't buy that. That is fair. But you can't prove my assumption is wrong by your own assumption that shards mind is too strong. Again, all Stormfather says is unreliable. I don't buy the 'blinded to intent argument'. It is cherry-picking. You can use it whenever it suits your argument. I can use the same argument too. When Honor connected to Taln he was not stupid, but 'blinded' to intent'. We have no proof heralds were mad before leaving the Oathpact. What WoB contradicts? Oathpact protected them while they were connected. There is no proof voidspren are bound by Oathpact. BAM used them. How Moash created Connection with Odium in the first place if Honor's restrictions forbade him from interactions with humans? If Kaladin wanted, he could take any power from Odium. He used Moash because Kaladin didn't give permission.(no harm as opposed to no interaction argument) Agree with Trill comment. Why he didn't form a connection with singers through Trill and then provide them with forms of Power?

I think a more helpful comment from Hoid would be 'Use the Breaths or you'll lose your mind', don't you think? 'There are hints in the book about how Hoid avoided a similar fate' hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe I missed the correct quote? Perception. The power has an intent which Rayse tried to change. The same way your self-perception affects your healing 'Odium wasn't simply the mind that controlled the power: the Vessel. Nor was he merely the power alone: the Shard. He was both, and at times it seemed the power had desires that were counter to the purposes of the Vessel.' - Sja-Anat interlude. This doesn't scream to me as they are one entity. Can you hurt the power? Every time we saw Shard being hurt, it was always a Vessel problem. The power is unscathed for the next wielder to use. Partially still human with a lot of human weaknesses. If the Vessel is in control, why does the power always control the Vessel in the end? 11 is not that much better than 10. For him entering the Oathpact meant soon death. His whole goal was to buy time, which he helped Taln to do. Back then you argued the shard is so smart that it sees all possibilities. And you think Honoir couldn't predict one of the Heralds would yield with time? Why do you think cycles of Desolation weren't his plan all along? Do you take Stormfather words as facts? Gavilar prologue spoilers: What was the point of leaving the Oathpact? To stop the pain. They haven't felt Taln's pain since they left the Oathpact, otherwise, what was the point of leaving? So that part of the Connection is most likely severed. Don't know where you see the proof of magical madness in the prelude. For me, it is just a normal reaction after so many years of torture. My original argument was that if they hadn't left Taln, they would still be broken, but not magically mad. This quote? He can't harm people, but what stops him from interacting with willing participants? Why would a singer refuse the form of power? You said he couldn't make the connection with Kaladin, but you ignored that he easily made the new connection with Moash.

Still don't see how breaths can help you stay sane. If you don't use them, you'll just forget a bunch of things. Hoid is not a usual CS. Holding a dawnshard may have helped him If they are not separate entities, how can Raise fight with Odium's intent? The conflict between two separate entities makes it possible. We fundamentally disagree on Shard and vessel relationships. I think the vessel is the only vulnerable part of the shard. And if it is not 'human', it maintains some humanity with a lot of its vulnerabilities. I already explained that stupid and noble is often the same. He knew the consequences but did it regardless. When the 10 heralds worked together the plan was working. He wouldn't help 10 minds that much. Plus the risk of splintering. When other Heralds left, there was no one else to help Taln, hence the emotional and noble decision to help Taln The whole Roshar and Cosmere was one word from Dalinar to be exposed to Odium unchained. Renarin saw this future as a done deal. It is not a good plan, it is a huge gamble at best. His whole strategy was to delay and hope somebody will solve it in the future. Again, in my theory, Taln losing his connection to other heralds made him vulnerable to usual CS madness. They all stayed sane until they all were connected and shared pain. It doesn't matter if Taln stayed loyal if the other heralds did not. He had Unmade for connection. It doesn't explain why he didn't give forms of power to singers, just like BAM. He could have made connections to any singer. Why it is in conflict? That is too literal an interpretation of the WoB.

"I remember so few of those centuries. I am a blur. A smear on the page. A gaunt stretch of ink, made all the more insubstantial with each passing day." "Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much." "Why would I want to remember?" I don't think Breaths help you to stay sane. They just help you to remember. What do you think will restore Taln? I don't disagree about the causes of madness. I just assume ten people connected together helped to postpone those effects. Abandoning the Oathpact is the major cause of their madness. My interpretation is that they are separate entities. I see the vessel as a human. And if the human is stupid enough to create a harmful connection, I don't see how it is implausible that Taln's madness couldn't affect the vessel. Tanavast at the end was raving that surgebinders will destroy the world. How can this be explained with his mind being affected by Shard's intent? What Honor is partly depends on the vessel's interpretation. I think Kaladin is closer to Honor than Dalinar. But Kaladin will break his word to save even a stranger. Dalinar will not break his word in most cases (my reading of the characters). To do what is right is to stay loyal to your principles. Principals can be interpreted how the oath to yourself, not unlike radiants oaths. Probably because that would have made him vulnerable to being splintered. He couldn't prevent him from returning to Roshar permanently. And I don't think planing is the strong side of Honor. I don't think he is bound on Braize now. He is just afraid that his presents on Roshar make him vulnerable to Cultivation attack, so he stays back. I think he says something like that at the end of Oathbringer. Taravargian sees the being that was Raise as frail, but the power anything but frail. Odium's imprisonment on Roshar and the subsequential rift between him and his power was the wound that Honor made. Tanavast coudn't fight back at the end. But if Honor chose not to help Taln, he would have been alive. The Oathpact is not the direct cause.

I don't see how stealing memories will save heralds. Stealing memories will make the character Taln less compelling. I agree that Heralds can be saved. The main character Taln in the back five is the proof. But I think restoring the Oathpact with a lot of sane heroes will awake Taln. It can't affect a Shard. It affects the vessel. The vessel is a weak point of the shard. The vessel's mind deteriorates with time. Why torture will not affect him? I think the point of Honor is that he stands for what is right and not what is smart. Half of the things that Kaladin does in the books are not smart, but noble. And he is the closest to Honor character. Do you really think the fact that he had help with a couple of thousand out of 4500 years will diminish his achievement? Honor didn't trap Odium on Braise. He trapped him in the Rasharan system. It is weird that he is inactive outside of Desolations. I disagree. My theory makes Oathpact tangentially related. Not the original Oathpact is the reason for his death, but his decision to share Taln's pain

This whole theory stems from my desire to redeem Tanavast. Because, even if what the rest of the heralds did to Taln was cruel, I can understand them. They were broken after thousands of years of torture. For Tanavast to not do something to help abandoned Taln is beyond evil. And I think he did something, something noble and stupid. Up until recently, I assumed Honor's death was a consequence of trapping Odium in the Rosharan system. But the timeline doesn’t work. Odium is trapped on Roshar for at least 4500 years. And that is a minimum. It may be even before humans came on Roshar. There is no evidence that he is not trapped when he manipulated Ishar on Ashyn. And that many years is slightly pushing the term ‘slow death’ of the shard. I think something happened between Aharietiam and Recreance that directly led to Honor’s death. First, I need to make a huge assumption. The Oathpact needs 10 people not only to share the pain of torture but to protect them from ‘magical’ insanity. The assumption is that if the heralds hadn’t abandoned Oathpact, they would still be broken people, but without that ‘magical’ madness. So the theory is that Tanavast as the vessel joined the Oathpact alongside Taln. Or at least shared his pain of torture. But only two of them weren’t enough. Over time they both went mad (hence Honor’s ravings during the Recrenesance). That made the vessel of the shard weak and open to attack from Odium. Connection to Taln also made Tanavast partly connected to Braise. As a bonus, it can explain why Odium was suspiciously inactive after Aharietiam. Why hasn’t he done the same thing the Mishram did – ignore the trapped fused and provide singers with the forms of power? It is better than nothing. And he can’t be trapped as BAM was. Tanavast actions bound Odium to the Oathpact and trapped him on Braise after Aharietiam.

I think Adolin can fight for Odium only if he is manipulated. I don't believe in the 'evil' Adolin arc. 'Confused, manipulated, immediately regretting' Adolin arc is more probable. So his name will still be a safe name to use for a child or pet.

Drawing the fight because of love feels very satisfying for me. I have no idea about the implications of that outcome. I think it gives the author the wiggle room to have an unexpected ending. Also agree about the bad ending for the main characters, Stormfather, and storms. Too many Death Rattles are foreshadowing it. It is more likely it is about the first five books ending than the second.

Fair point. Dalinar himself said that the fight won't simply be a swordfight. But the terms are strict about the killing part. I kind of assume that the whole point to have the contest of champions is to avoid a direct clash between two shards. Fighting for the "hearts of men" doesn't need champions. Dalinar and Odium are in the middle of that fight already. For me, the fight between two people without using superpowers makes more sense. I always thought it will be that way, before those words from Dalinar. That's interesting. I haven't really considered Cultivation's preferences in the fight. But Odium might think she is an ally. I don't know what her game is at this point. Does she realize who Taravangian is, or has she made a horrible mistake? Is she playing Odium or is he playing her now?

I am quite confident Dalinar as his own champion is a clever misdirection from the author. 1) Why reveal it so early? It's one of the most intriguing parts of the next book. 2) He is not the best fighter. Adolin or Kaladin are better. Don't think magical powers will count. Otherwise, Odium can grant unlimited powers to his champion. 3) One of Dalinar's major arks throughout all four books is his realization that as the leader - bondsmith he needs to delegate his responsibilities and put trust in others. First, he stopped directly participating in battles. Then he sought Mink to take over the command on the battlefield. His direct foe is Odium himself, not his champion.

Like the idea about Kaladin being the one to intervene. It will be poetic if his noble need to save will free Odium. But I think he will try to save Honor's champion (Dalinar or Adolin). It needs to be someone from his side. There is the quote on Final terms: "allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces".

I had this topic a while back: "Battle of champions. (I spent way too much time thinking about this topic, and here is the result)" This pretty much sums up my thoughts about a loophole: The weird thing about the setup of this battle is how relatively low the stakes are. No matter the outcome, Dalinar has already won. (Even Wit said that to Odium). The stakes basically are Alethkar, Herdas, and Dalinar’s soul. For us, the audience, the stakes are whether one of the heroes that we care about can die. When Taravangian took the shard, the stakes for Odium became even lower. His goal was always to save Roshar and now he basically has the power to end this war. For him, the outcome of this fight is even more meaningless than for Raise. The second weird thing is Taravangian-Odium thought about Raise being maneuvered into this deal: “The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control”. And literally the next sentence: “It can still be done”. And something about subtle possibilities. Both outcomes of the fight are unsatisfying for him. I think Taravangian really wants the same thing the Raise did: to be free of Honors restrictions. This is the outcome that he is looking for. Chapter Terms has this interesting bit: “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.” “Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me. I think this is the loophole that Odium will try to exploit. I see three possibilities here: 1) Dalinar refuses to become Fused (a very boring possibility) 2) Dalinar refuses to kill his opponent (child, Gavilar, etc). Terms are strict about the killing part. 3) Dalinar is not a champion but intervenes in the fight. The third option is the one I want to speculate on the most. Who will be Dalinar’s champion if not himself? I am leaning toward Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Kaladin. He doesn’t need explanations. As for Adolin. Well, he is the best duelist. And from the narrative perspective, Adolin being chosen by Dalinar as his champion will be a very satisfying conclusion to their conflict: Adolin sees himself as not able to meet his father’s high standards. Dalinar choosing Adolin for the most important battle of this generation will be a powerful signal from his father that he sees him as a kinda cool son. But my bet will be on the fight between Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin is Dalinar’s champion, and Adolin is Odium’s champion. That will explain why Dalinar is not fighting (not wanting to fight his own son). And this pair will allow for the same result: Dalinar will intervene if Kaladin will be on the verge of killing Adolin and vice versa. Why the hell Adolin will fight for Odium? It would have been a tough pill to swallow If Odium was Raise. Raise was the bad guy with bad intentions. But Taravangian can persuade Adolin that his father is the wrong party to support. And he can exploit the current shaky relationship between Adolin and Dalinar. The Evi part is painful and easy to use.

I think misleading and not correcting false assumptions is still lying. Strange behavior of someone who is a splinter of Honor. His behavior leads me to believe that he has his own intentions and goals, not the same as Honor's. But he is limited by Honor's orders (maybe he took some oaths). At least his interpretation of those orders is drastically different from how Honor intended them.