LewsTherinTelescope

When do we see other Knights accessing each individual Surge in two different ways? Edgedancers with Progression is the only time I can think of this happening, with Growth vs Regrowth, and I think it's plausible to kind of fit those under the same umbrella. I disagree with this. I think his futuresight is his resonance. It's a passive thing that appears to require no Light and can be related in a way to both of his powers but at the same time is more than just a combination of the two. I think the lights he makes are his Illumination, though we don't really know what the heck those do yet besides "strange, unnatural things sometimes" (unclear if this is referring to what he did against Moash or not). I could buy the Moash thing being either an extension of those lights and so V-Illumination, or essentially being his Reverse Lashing equivalent. Worth noting, Fused are considered Surgebinders, not Voidbinders: Agreed. To quote a WoB (emphasis mine): As you kind of get at later, I don't think we can define ratios for the spren so easily. Imo, it's not two types of Investiture with one Intent each, it's one type of Investiture with one Intent (which is made up from two others a la resonances). So you can't, say, split an honorspren into Honor and Cultivation easily (there's probably some way to sort of do it, but I don't think it's directly splitting it in that way, I think it's kinda weirder than that), because it's not made of separate Honor and Cultivation. It's a piece of Investiture with the Intent of, say, protection or something in that vein, which contains elements of both Honor and Cultivation but is not quite either, they're changed to work together as one whole. You can argue the Intent is closer to one Shard than another, but you can't directly split it into something like "80% Honor, 20% Cultivation".

Would have to be the Last Desolation since the False Desolation didn't actually involve any Return, right? Voidspren and Fused were still stuck on Braize.

I can't see how "the will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better." (emphasis mine) would lead to a Shard diametrically opposed to the basic idea of the "demand".

That.... isn't commanding something to change. I don't see how this can be interpreted as a command to not change. BoM 5:

You could argue it's thematically connected, I guess, but my issue with this is always: the Dawnshards are Commands. Why would commanding something to Change give you Preservation? Autonomy in Bind I actually don't dislike as much, since I could see an argument for it similar to Wax's speech to Steris in BoM (though I do think it'd be something of a stretch), but same goes for that. Why would giving something a Command to Bind result in something anti-binding? And why do the other two categories not have a "related by opposition" Shard, just Change and Bind?

Heh, case in point for my argument earlier about terminology What I've usually thought (this is not confirmed, just my guess) is that because Odium was trapped on Braize, the Fused are naturally "centered" on Braize in a way since they're of his power, same as how spren would be tied to Roshar. So imprisoning them on Braize was kind of a matter of convenience more than specifically thinking Braize sounded like a great place for it. Means that they don't have to track down every individual Fused and Voidspren and work out how to move their Connection to a different place, they can just block off Braize so the Fused get trapped when they get yoinked back (my theory is that when they die each time they get tugged back to their source as kind of just a natural consequence of being beings of Investiture, as opposed to the Oathpact specifically sending them back, but once more this is conjecture).

I just meant that the voice that rejected the Ideal was presumably the same as the one that accepted it, as opposed to SF rejecting it like the person has said. I intentionally did not draw any other conclusions about the voice in my comment. To be honest the Sibling just does a tooon of weird crap with fabrials that I think is just stuff a giant spren like them can do even without Surges. I still think it's plausible that the WoB refers to people working out and formalizing definitions for the Ideals (ie, people bonded to highspren looking at what things seem to grant them more power and working out the rules for what they term the Ideals of Radiance, Justice, Dedication, Crusade, and Law, which in my opinion are a bit more restricted than the actual requirements are and are more ways to push someone to meet those requirements than the other way around, based on the other orders we know), rather than referring to them being added, but yes, there is a decent argument for that. I would still not state it as fact, personally. Ah, I forgot about that, interesting. Could be, and would match with the Surge, but once more I don't think should be stated as absolute fact yet. Isn't the point of Abrasion that it makes things slippery either way? Would you mind pointing out where that is? I've seen other people say it too but can't recall what the evidence was. (I do actually have some thoughts on this myself, but they also mostly boil down to "spren can do spren things" lol.) I feel like it's pretty clear from the WoB about how you could say that there's 30 abilities or there's 10 categories that he means Surges when he says 10 systems as a possible number. I think this gets into what Brandon talks about sometimes with what does or doesn't count as a magic system. Is it an Invested Art, or simply a natural adaptation to an environment with readily available Splinters? (Well, "natural", because Ado does Ado things.) a.) Which kind? b.) That feels like saying mistwraiths are a magic system, which while you can make an argument isn't usually what people mean by it. I think it's very plausible these + singer forms are all essentially the same thing.

I think what we're seeing on Roshar is an example of how magic systems being associated to Shards is... messy... in most places, outside the circumstances of Scadrial (with the exception of Hemalurgy, the arts there were directly granted, so it makes sense for things to turn out a bit neater than what we get on places like Roshar, or the gods-cursed mess that is everything to do with Sel). I don't think fabrials are associated to Shards at all, I think it's simply a natural thing that spren-like beings can learn to do. Similarly to the Radiant bond, actually (I think the exact specifics are influenced by the fact the spren are of Honor and Cultivation, but I would almost describe the magic as "of" the spren themselves instead "of" the Shards — but that's a whole other long tangent). We know a Bondsmith may have done so. I don't count those, personally, as in those cases it's the bonded spren talking and not a being who is outside of the bond. Nah, it was rejected by "a femalen voice, so very far away—but thrumming with the pure rhythm of Roshar" (presumably the same as the "distant femalen voice" that accepts them). Except the question was specifically about honorspren and cultivationspren, who would be the two it's not the case for in the scenario you propose. We haven't actually seen Division Fused, have we? I think she slicked him, but not sure if we know or not. Good point. Might still view Regrowth as a higher priority for the Edgedancers to be doing, though. Tbh, I still don't count that as a magic system, just a big spren doing big spren things and choosing/being told to do things in a specific manner, but that's an old argument. He did not say so, but we know that there's 3, 10, or 30 magic systems depending on how you count it, and that Surgebinding and Voidbinding are in some manner ten-based, which makes it seem pretty likely. (I agree it shouldn't be stated as fact however.) A WoB that feels relevant to the broader conversation: So defining a magic system is kinda complicated anyway.

What does Ishar have to do with this? And why do people like Venli or Shallan use Stormlight when Venli has some pretty Culti vibes going on and Shallan's not exactly a very honor-focused person? Eh... kinda. The truespren aren't wholly natural, but from what Brandon's said, they weren't completely unnatural either. I believe "cultivated" was the word he settled on. Obligatory reminder that we almost never actually see Ideals being accepted by an external being (ie, not the spren in the bond itself), even Kaladin has only had it happen for half of his Ideals (and only one was Stormfather, other was Dalinar). I mean, unless tanavastium and koravellium are the same metal... Progresssion Fused seem to as well, but considering we still don't really understand how Fused powers and Radiant powers relate, I don't know that that means much. Though I'd note that Wyndle, who doesn't seem to yet consider her different from any other Edgedancer in that major a way, tries to teach her Growth, so I highly doubt she's the only one who has it. The Radiants presumably just don't view it as terrribly useful when Soulcasters exist, I'd guess. Edit: and when she performs Growth, he tells her "well done, we’ll make an Edgedancer out of you yet", which certainly implies it to be an Edgedancer power. Agreed, considering even Voidlight can fuel Surgebinding despite not being part of the Radiant spren at all.

I kind of get where you're coming from, but it just feels... trying to figure out exactly how to put it... it just feels intuitively off to me for so many spren of both Honor and Cultivation to all grant only Honor's interpretation of the concept, especially if some spren types lean more to C than H. Recently I've gravitated more towards the idea that it's more specifically the concept of the Surges filtered through the Intents of the spren, which would include Honor, Cultivation, and the spren type's own unique thing (such as truth or unity), though I'll admit I've been hesitant because I've for a long time been pretty firmly on the side the differences in powers aren't inherent to the orders and this idea heavily implies otherwise. But it's what makes the most sense to me on a kind of gut feeling level, for it to be filtered through the Intent of the being you're actually bonded to.

Maybe.... on the other hand, Regals have red eyes too, so I'm hesitant to take it to mean the Surgebinding is "not default" as opposed to something else. The Stormfather is the only Radiant spren that is pure Honor, so it makes sense to me for the aspects of the Surges expressed to line up relatively closely with the Honorblade, or at least moreso than the other Bondsmith spren. Whether that's "purest" depends on how you're choosing to define "Surge". Something worth noting is that Ash says that powers work differently for Radiants and the Heralds + Honorblades, but it's unclear what exactly this means (ie if it's just fabrial vs spren differences, if Honor just didn't "chain" the Heralds, if it's actually a subtle difference in powers due to spren being H&C and HBs being just H, etc). Does this mean the other Radiant spren all grant one Surge and one Life as well? Honestly I didn't even think of that lol

I don't find it interesting that it can fuel the Surges (even Voidlight can, if you can take it in), just that by default Radiants seemingly can only use Stormlight rather than Lifelight or Towerlight, and that Lift shows this can be changed even without messing with the spren themselves, pointing towards some weird external stuff potentially being relevant. Lol fair enough I'll need to do a reread someday, but I thought I remembered Kaladin feeling effects from the suppressor, but Lift not at first (besides Abrasion being blocked). Could be a Cultivation magic, could be a Cultivation-Odium magic if the theory that Voidbinding is actually Honor-Odium is true, etc. Afaik the only thing we know about it is Khriss doesn't think the Old Magic (which she describes as a cousin to Voidbinding) is part of it. Could mean a magic system, could just mean Lifelight. We don't know. (However, I did ask for hints, and those do qualify as potential hints, so fair enough.) I mean, the Honorblades aren't exactly "natural" either, they're artificial creations. You'd think at some point the old Radiants would've realized the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith had a different powerset if it was something more dramatic than just different expressions of the Surges (like for example the Stormfather Bondsmith vs Windrunners or Stonewards, all of which are still considered Surgebinding despite being wildly different).

Which is definitely interesting, but as we see with Lift and Venli there's some weirdness in this regard and I'd like to learn more about it before saying if it points to anything or not. What are these hints? As do Fused, Odium's exclusive creations, and the Nightwatcher, Cultivation's exclusive creation. This is definitely curious. Though, Lift was in a better state than Kal iirc, so it's kinda weird (but also Lift is weird in general). It's also worth noting Kal and Teft are both extremely close to the Fourth.

Fair enough, yeah. Was meaning that mostly jokingly, because it's not the first time he's said far more inaccurate things he should no better about lol. I'm still half convinced Brandon thought Bondsmiths had Cohesion when he wrote the temple scene and it was supposed to be a Spiritual version of that But yeah, thanks for the correction, wasn't sure how much was stated in the books so I was sticking to just mentioning Adhesion to be on the safe side

I don't understand how this makes Surgebinding overall Honor and not Cultivation? And Progression keeps working with Lifelight, and seems to be more effective with it, going off of Lift and lifespren. Extra capabilities that are always described by everyone as Adhesion.