LewsTherinTelescope

Agreed, just pointing out his PoV doesn't actually settle it.

True enough The pulses also probably are something originating in the user affecting the enemy, and might even work sorta similarly to copper in that it's emanating rhythms (depending on how exactly copper does what it does, that's meant to be framed as a theory not fact). Honestly brass and zinc are the ones that are hardest for me to remember, because the intuition I use for the rest is kinda "Pulling is less active and/or more defensive, Pushing is more active and/or more offensive" (pulling into yourself, vs pushing at someone else), but to me Rioting and Soothing break that idea. Yeahhhh I have no idea what's up with those This is where the defensive/inactive vs offensive/active crutch helps me keep track, thinking of the way Wayne goes out and uses his bubbles to attack, whereas Marasi uses hers to wait for help. Lol understandable. I am exhaaaausted right now, so I'll have to come back to the deeper theorizing stuff tomorrow, because as interesting as it is I can barely read what the words say, let alone what they mean The interesting thing here is the rhythms, because there's patterns that indicate whether a metal falls into the internal category or external one (though this doesn't mean they haven't slightly misunderstood what it actually is, and it means something subtly different from "internal/external"). (An interesting note here is that atium does share a pattern with the temporal metals, which I might've actually brought up in the main post now that I think about it but am too lazy to check lol.)

But was that "healing" in the usual Cosmere sense (aligning the aspects with each other), or was that just a Shard directly rewriting the spiritweb to be the way they wanted it to be instead? I tend to lean towards the latter.

However, they tripped and fell over the old Coppermind logo, which Brandon then declared to be decent after all.

Hoid is weird and I'm not willing to base anything on him Hm could definitely be Vin and Marsh discuss it, though I dunno how much I agree with the distinction made. (After all, you could probably argue the same for the emotional metals' pulses.) Yeahhhh Pushing and Pulling are kind of weird outside steel and iron. In fact, from the sound of it, copper is literally pushing some sort of field out from yourself... Yeah it's interesting stuff.

Yeah, it's in one of the storage caches. Good point, can probably excuse it with that. Seems a lot of people have, with how often I still see the side effect thing brought up Hm, that's a good question. I'm more willing to accept lerasium alloys being odd, due to a.) containing the power granting it or b.) due to the extra innate Preservation in Scadrians being the thing that allows Allomancy, but that'd be a good question for Brandon I think. God I forgot about that one........... Might be that only Enhancement alloys make Mistings or something like that..... Ah okay, yeah probably. looks at copper Yeah... Yeah could be.

Notum's father is definitely post-Recreance, he gives a bit of family history in OB. My guess is Brandon just mixed up Notum and Ico, but idk.

Ah. Yeah, it's odd, but depending on the ratios involved it might work, since Allomantic electrum is about half gold still. It's sorta odd malatium was discovered either way, tbh. Because there's a bunch of alloys of atium, and yet both Shezler and Rashek only ever seem to have discovered malatium. It being the only one that could be gotten (in a slightly impure form) by adding things to electrum-atium might help explain that, but it's still... weird. To respond to a comment from the other thread here, to keep it in one place: Seems plausible. I'm a bit hesitant because of the following WoBs: Which sorta sound like he might be backtracking that idea of the "main effect" and "side effect". But if that still stands, then yeah, atium probably has one too. Not sure about it allowing burning alloys, because being able to burn iron doesn't let you burn steel, but I think it's still plausible. ...huh. I even read and used that very line and still missed that even more obvious problem Good catch lmao Hm, I was thinking a more limited version of what Elend got (less time, less knowledge, less understanding), but I think that's a reasonable effect as well. Hm, good question. My gut feeling is it's mostly just a somewhat arbitrary thing to make the metals actually distinct instead of one just better than the other, but even then Brandon does like to make rules for what was otherwise arbitrary, so... Not sure.

Woah, this is awesome!

What malatium thing specifically? There's a few things with it I'm confused by either way, tbh, lol. I actually don't see this part as too much of an issue. The Allomantic table was something Brandon intended from the start to be wrong and grow and change as knowledge evolves, so while this wasn't originally intended, I think it fits the spirit of the thing for them to later discover it's a bit more complex than previously thought, helping some loose pieces fall into place. Basically what happened with them even placing atium onto the OG chart in the first place. Thanks! Lol yeah there's a reason I haven't made a proper new one in a hot minute despite having theories that could really benefit from that organization.

Do they? It might be that all the atium (outside the "refined" spikes) we've seen has been electrum-atium. And the description of what "pure" atium does in the Allomantic chart doesn't quiiiiiiiite line up, in my opinion, though it's very close and I could see the argument. Description of atium: Description of electrum: The electrum one mentions the limitations, while the atium one merely says "expansive", which I'd say matches Elend's transcension moment more than the normal function of the metal we see. My guess is that pure atium basically puts you into the Cognitive and Spiritual a bit (which the atium we see used actually does, too, according to Kelsier's description of them "transcending" the Realms), while electrum-atium (I like the name "benatium" to contrast with gold-atium's "malatium") filters this into future shadows like electrum has, and malatium filters it into past/alt-present shadows like gold has. But when burning it with duralumin and a ton of "atium", Elend basically overwhelmed the filter and cracked it wide open, not dissimilar to how using steel and iron with the Bands allows seeing other objects besides metal (in fact, I wonder if a Bands user burning electrum would transcend like that...). I'd guess the latter (shame it's not malatium, health + Shard of time passing = youth would've been a nice fit), since otherwise it'd probably indicate the "refined" form being widely known, when presumably only Inquisitors know (assuming Rashek didn't just provide the atium spikes premade). Hm, I'd guess probably. I'm not actually sure I'd agree with this (though I could totally see an argument for it and it's not a hill I'd die on). WoBs have seemed to imply that godmetals might be burnable by anyone with sufficient tie to the Shard, which makes sense to me since it's really just a chunk of pure Investiture sitting inside your body and spiritweb (though a longer discussion on that should probably go in the thread I linked instead of here... though it ties into the discussion here about using Stormlight so...). Meanwhile, burning an alloy probably requires being able to burn the base metal, I feel, because otherwise you'd just be using the Investiture and leaving the metal behind, which is... not a pleasant thought. In my opinion, burning a godmetal is "Allomancy" the way sticking a random Invested piece of metal in someone is "Hemalurgy": same fundamental mechanics, but different in some key ways that make categorization difficult, and with one being a more broad and base mechanic than the other. Apparently atium was the spike they thought stole that. Which is interesting, considering "must be refined".... I don't think so. Just Mistborn like Vin and Elend. That's a good point, actually. Though, the fact a younger Breath does make a Returned feel noticeably better than an old one does shows it doesn't not have an effect on them, either... hm..... This is a really weird question, now. Huh, interesting connection. Yeah, probably. Yeah. A relevant WoB: So it seems like it works best if it's similar to the Awakener. Perhaps because "rekeying" to match the object requires less of a change? Or perhaps because the Connection between the Awakener and object is stronger and so not as much power is needed to forge the pathway between the two? Idk exactly. Light (Stormlight and Lifelight, anyway, though not Voidlight, because for some Ado-forsaken reason Lifelight is exactly the same emotionally as Stormlight, down to being "a storm in her veins") really likes acting and doing and storming, which (for Stormlight) makes sense if it comes from, well, the Storm. Which one, out of curiosity? It's mostly a combination of a few of them. Unfortunately, the question's been RAFO'd for being plot-relevant to the Nightblood novel. And then there is the in-story information given to us about how Lifeless retain some measure of their skills from before their death. Would it be fair to say that the Lifeless would be considered by Vasher to be Cognitive Shadows of this nature: For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes. Brandon Sanderson This is RAFO material in that it is a possible plot point for a future Warbreaker book. (Sorry.) Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 15, 2020) So they almost seem to be incredibly weak Cognitive Shadows, perhaps even halfway between a Cognitive Shadow of the old person and a completely new spren. Slaughter and Despair, so many things seem to be way more of a gradient than we'd previously thought... That's a good point. Might have to do with the way Breath seems to attach itself in a more Spiritual way, while Stormlight seems to reside more in the Physical? That's a good point too, Stormlight seems to love trying to escape, while Breath seems to latch on and integrate itself. Huh, never considered that. Yeah, nice one. Oooh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah that was about my reaction to seeing the example too Huh, forgot about that one. Pretty much. Makes sense to me. Otoh, the Spiritual is... pretty weird on its own, really. So maybe? But maybe not? Or maybe sorta both? Idek... The way the Realms relate with each other is weird. Lol yeah probably not. I'm guessing they'll dig more into things in Era 3 and the back half, but probably not truly hit it for a while. I imagine it'll be important in Dragonsteel, at the very least, though. Yep!

Apparently they sometimes don't obey Dalinar's orders, and..... that's about all we know, I think.

Well well well, looky what we have here...

I could see that. I think this is partly where the Intention aspect of things comes into the picture. While it's a change, it's a relatively minor one, and done with the Intent to Preserve. While there's a limit to how far that can stretch things, I think as long as it's not too drastic, it can help. This is all made a lot more complicated by one thing: in my opinion, WoBs strongly imply that as a general rule, anyone can burn any godmetal, as long as they have a tie to the Shard. (And if you listen to the audio on that one, he says it in a kind of odd way, as if he's trying to think about how much to say.) There's actually even more WoBs that relate to that topic, I've got my own theory on what's going on there. But the situation's clearly a bit different from the way it appears on the surface, and that makes it really hard to determine just how far Preservation went or didn't go. Ah, good point I didn't even think about, so I feel that helps narrow things down for what happened. Imo, that makes it even less likely it was doing any sort of fundamental change, as opposed to just altering which "genes" naturally express themselves somehow. EDIT: New Word of Peter that's relevant: Preservation didn't change Allomancy after all. Which is basically my theory, so I shall rejoice Probably, I was viewing that as a step in working out how to breathe it in but those might not be quite the same issue. Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I still wonder whether his Shardic composition has changed at all from using Stormlight to live for such a long time or not. I could see it going either way. Agreed. Breath is weird because the quantity of it in a person doesn't seem to change much (though there is variation, going off the Ars Arcanum), but apparently they grow less "vigorous" as a person ages. Might be related to the way Stormlight in use recharges sand quicker than Stormlight sitting there, the Investiture is more active and "alive", so to speak? Hm, could definitely be. My thought on it has mostly been that Breath might be a bit more... "shaped", so to speak, while the Lights and mist are more formless, but haven't put a ton of thought into the specifics. Heh, yeah, I get that you just want to add one little detail but next thing you know... There's a reason I haven't finished a proper theory post in a while now Oh yeesh yeah that's wild. Lol yeah. Always a combination of "how the heck did I miss that" and "ooo what else is there?" In a similar vein, and even also about Awakening... I recently stumbled across the WoBs that kind of sort of imply a Lifeless is almost a Cognitive Shadow, and that was a weird one for me to consider. Hmmm very good question. If I had to guess, it's because of the way Breaths have that weird attribute of kinda latching onto the person (hence why they can be taken offworld and stuff). Like, they no longer conflict or something (after all, a Radiant can take in quite a bit of Stormlight even when they're bonded not just to their Blade spren but to a dozen Plate spren too, so clearly not all Investiture prevents further Investment, perhaps just Investiture with conflicting Identities or something). Yeah I'd guess the fact there's not really anything you're specifically telling it to do, just wanting it to do the exact thing it's currently doing but in someone else, probably means it doesn't require too complex a visualization. Heh, never noticed that before. Yeah, Zahel's training really shows sometimes. Hey, Brandon considers Spider-Man a magic system! Yuuuuuuuuuup. Yeah, it's pretty much the magic system, as opposed to just a magic system. That would make sense. They also seem to have been involved in worldhopping for a while now, we know there's been a lot of traffic between Nalthis and Roshar for a long time, which probably helped just via things like the Five Scholars using that knowledge and spreading it, even if most of the world doesn't know where they got it. I'd argue there's still a filter, but would agree it's a lot less filtered or restricted compared to a lot of other magics. (Specifically, it is the Investiture that gives them/enhances their life and thought, and beyond odd complicated things we don't understand like the memory Commands, its effects are indeed limited to this. It makes people more alive and connected to the world around them, it brings life to nonliving things and grants them the ability to think, it restores the dead to a crude facsimile of what they once were, etc.) But compare that to something like Allomantic gold or Basic Lashings... yeah, definitely much looser, agreed. Yeah, it does have a use, same as how "end positive/neutral/negative" do have a use for getting across the idea of what is happening in some magics, even if it falls apart when applied more broadly. But within the spot where it's relevant, it's useful, yeah. I do think they're pretty similar, but singer forms seem to function via a deeper bond with one spren that changes the singer on a fundamental level, while the other bonds seem to be to multiple spren in a way that causes less of a change outside the one thing that's needed. Perhaps, rough analogy, it's the difference between Kaladin's bond to Syl and Kaladin's bond to the windspren? Fun fact, Brandon's actually compared the forms to Hemalurgy before. Yeah, definitely. I doubt if they were sitting in the Physical that would be happening. Yeahh I usually just kinda try and ignore the way those things relate to this stuff because it hurts my brain lol. If all that's needed to make gravity affect someone differently is just to convince their soul that the planet's a different direction... yeah no I'll just let Syl and her pals get away with their agreement to pretend lol. Probably, but I expect it to be pretty wibbly-wobbly with how core the Cognitive and Spiritual are to most things.

Yeah, he's mentioned that as things go on, it's started to feel odd to have godmetals be a Mistborn-only thing.